Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

[CynicAl]

I'm sure I saw this painting in an Impressionist art gallery recently.

A Monet or Cezanne perhaps?

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Monet

Like Monet's paintings...Looks good from afar - but far from good close up

"See that girl over there - she's a right Monet"

I thought that was Munter ;-)

[Liz Eagles]

IF 'evidence' of a crime is not found on the 'snail' how will OG 'explain' that this HUGELY EXPENSIVE, (30 professionals for 5 whole days) UK taxpayer funded,  er, 'exercise' was BASED entirely on 'significant information from a new 'witness'?

There's an FOI, just waiting to be asked!

Just don't expect a bleeding answer to it.  

[Guest]

97,  98,  99,   ONE HUNDRED

Ready or not - I'm Coming ! ! !

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@ PeterMac

I think you're incorrect.

I'm sure I saw this painting in an Impressionist art gallery recently.

A Monet or Cezanne perhaps?

Pollock!

[CynicAl]

If Smithman was GM who,  some of us think may have taken a decoy blonde girl for a walk to give credibility to abduction scenario, then nothing will be found. If the body went directly from apartment to freezer then nothing will be found.

This sounds reasonable. GM knows nothing will be found, he always has done, hence the ubiquitous smirk.

Except of course, something was found. In the hire car and in the apartment.

The problem with unrestricted back-fitting is that these facts become submerged beneath unlikely scenarios.

Unlikely when one puts themselves in the position(s) of those involved. Why on earth would McCann run the risk of being identified with a 'decoy' child? Even he isn't that stupid, is he?

The route he took was clearly to reduce the risk of encountering anyone, there was a more direct but riskier route to the beach don't forget.

No, for me, their poorly thought out 'plan' with no independently corroborated evidence, at all, to back it up, was something put together in panic mode, with a need to shift anything incriminating out of 5A as soon as possible. Decoy runs with a similar child would not have been on such an agenda.

"Panic mode" agreed...  IIRC Eddie took a whiff of a flowerbed or shrubbery beneath the apartment and, in snifferdog speak,  shrugged and said 'yeah, could be a slight whiff here." I' m guessing that to cadaver dogs that shrug speaks volumes - the difference between 'there' s been a dead body in this bush' and 'can' t smell anything unusual, but that's not to say a few dead people might not have passed this way.'

From the little research I've done I would suggest that any half-hearted positive reaction is likely to be indicative of, at least, a quick and unceremonious dumping of a body while checking a coast as being clear, but most likely the body was encased in something porous, which reduced the amount of physical contact between the vegetation and cadaverine-oozing skin, to merely the shedding of trace residue. Arguably a certain blue tennis bag would fit such a role of encasement quite conveniently, and would explain the absence of significant cadaverine alerting on GM's clothing, and in the external vicinity of 5a.

Speculation, MBM was already removed from 5a before KM alerted in the evening, in the bag, which was dumped in a concealed location in scrubland from whence it could be either picked up much later by the original conspirator, or could be moved shortly after to a somewhat cooler environment (still in the bag with trace cadaverine leaking from the seams, perhaps accounting for some of the 'low-to-the-ground' traces to which dogs later alerted) byeither the perp, or facilitators on the ground in PDL. I'd be surprised if this is far removed from what the PJSY Alliance had in mind. 

As an afterthought, considering some of Textusa's insistences, is it also possible that a group of employees of OC were privately arranging 'special' holidays through agents like RM & SM with blind eyes turned by a few 'financial beneficiaries' and when somethingwent wrong that group (rather than a conspiracy involving MW corporate) caused a flurry of remedial activity amongst themselves. In the absence of a source of money setting them up for life, none would want to lose their jobs in those circumstances if they chose to act on conscience rather than help. And maybe the Fund became necessary because someone among the Tapas gang was busy writing promissory notes for costs incurred, bribe money and conscience appeasement. 

This would also be in line with an apparent effort by PJSY to 'flush out' some former/current OC employees while leaving MW Corporate, as it were, entirely alone. 

Has the rest of it all been happenstance, the exploitation of the generous and gullible, and cashing in of favours with a bit of political expediency thrown in. Maybe PJSY always intended to nail the Mc's, but did so in such a way that potential informants were protected, gathering enough evidence to crucify and discredit the principals so thoroughly that even their latter 'tell all' attempts at scorched earth would make them look like villains in comparison to the tortured facilitators who came good in the end. 

Ok... Time to write that novel. 

Fiction it may be, but it isn't far fetched fiction. It has a stronger likelihood of being close to truth than a lot of the conspiracy theory waffle that passes as 'credible' speculation.

My Mum told me that self praise is no recommendation.

Good for you. What did she say about humour and logic?

[endgame]

If they find anything this wont look good on the PJ.  The press will have a field day banging on about the original bungled investigation.  Also will play right into the hands of those who claimed no real search took place at the time.

Not necessarily so. 

Cast your mind back... 

The town raced round the place that evening looking for what? 

Living persons! 

A missing little girl. 

A leering pedophile clutching a wriggling gagged bundle of blonde hair and pink pyjamas. 

A kidnapper typing his ransom note. 

Who (mis)directed the search very, very specifically for enough days to arrange the removal of the evidence? Who played the PJ and British Foreign Office jointly like a fiddle? 

Dozens of people could have passed the body in frantic searches calling 'Maddie, Maddie' and never known what was concealed because at that time they were not looking for anything other than a missing living child. 

These people have pulled the wool over the eyes of many. At the end of this GA and the PJ and even SY could look like tireless, charade-playing, sociopath-baiting conquering heroes and the anger and hate will be directed in one direction only - toward anyone and everyone who enabled Team McCann to function.

CynicAl, the idea that, after 7 years of relentless PJ bashing, totally ignoring all indications that the Portuguese are even fit to breathe the same air as us, the British press is suddenly going to take a measured, balanced and sophisticated view of the whole charade does not resonate with me at all. Whatever transpires, the narrative will always be twisted to read Brits good: Portuguese bad.

[PeterMac]

How would finding cadaver scent in a nearby field 7 years after the event put the McCanns in the frame when the cadaver scent was found in their apartment and that has disappeared from public consciousness?

Quite. In itself it proves no link to the McCanns and could be used to support any number of other theories. If AR had accepted the earlier dog findings, I don't see how the "investigation" could possibly have followed the course that it has. As always with this nothing ever adds up.

Oh, it adds up. It may be slow. It may be painful. It may be frustrating. But like a slowly dripping tap, every little fragment of evidence can add up to a massive, undeniable, inescapable whole.

It does add up, sadly. Nothing that has been done so far, nor anything that may (or may not - Clarence ! ) be found is out of line with one of the main-stream purported theories.
It only requires very slight re-defining on the extreme periphery, and the peripheral details were always in doubt.
The blue bag hypothesis is left intact, the traces in the car and key fob are not falsified in any way, . . .I don't want to go on, but it still fits.
And if evidence is found the duty is then to change the hypothesis, not other other way rounnd, of course.

[ultimaThule]

97,  98,  99,   ONE HUNDRED

Ready or not - I'm Coming ! ! !

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At least he is seen involved in the field works.

' Julie was heartbroken when it was revealed who she had selected in the PDL dogging competition " 

Shouldn't that be 'digging competition', sso?  What a shame it's too late for you to correct the typo  

[ No it's Correct DOGGING !!! ]

Of  course it is!  < tut >  Silly me... I forgot about Tito and  Muzzi  

[Bishop Brennan]

CynicAl, the idea that, after 7 years of relentless PJ bashing, totally ignoring all indications that the Portuguese are even fit to breathe the same air as us, the British press is suddenly going to take a measured, balanced and sophisticated view of the whole charade does not resonate with me at all. Whatever transpires, the narrative will always be twisted to read Brits good: Portuguese bad.

I'm afraid that's probably spot on. A sad reflection of 21st Century Britain, and a new media-fuelled xenophobia that has become not only acceptable but popular and, more recently, legitimised.

[Guest]

The English Police believe the body of Madeleine McCann, who disappeared seven years ago in the Algarve, is or has been buried in Praia da Luz, Lagos.

Sad. True. Maybe not buried in the Algarve but buried somewhere :) Gosh it's all so sad. Poor Madeleine. English police & Portuguese believe the same thing. Good for G.A. but we're now at a new stage. Whatever comes of this, the Mcs will fight on

This is probably what Gerry meant when he said he would only go to PdL if they found her DNA.  Not if they found her body.  He must know her remains would not be found.  How confident is he that her DNA won't be found though?

 I don't think gerry is confident nothing will be found just that he and his legal team will dispute it like they did with the hire car DNA...so legally they will argue nothing has been found.

     Saying they will only come if her DNA is found is putting a doubt into the public's mind that what may be found will not be conclusive enough. IMO

I think that Gerry is worried.

The expected phrase is they would only go to PdL if Madeleine is found so to say dna indicates to me that dna is at the forefront of Gerry's mind and the police finding Madeleine's dna worries Gerry far more than the police finding Madeleine herself.

My opinion only.

I think you may well be right.  Its a strange thing to say in any case.  An anguished parent of a missing daughter of 7 years who in all possibility could be buried nearby and he is giving an ultimatum on her DNA.  Not normal behaviour imo.

[endgame]

How would finding cadaver scent in a nearby field 7 years after the event put the McCanns in the frame when the cadaver scent was found in their apartment and that has disappeared from public consciousness?

Quite. In itself it proves no link to the McCanns and could be used to support any number of other theories. If AR had accepted the earlier dog findings, I don't see how the "investigation" could possibly have followed the course that it has. As always with this nothing ever adds up.

Oh, it adds up. It may be slow. It may be painful. It may be frustrating. But like a slowly dripping tap, every little fragment of evidence can add up to a massive, undeniable, inescapable whole.

It does add up, sadly. Nothing that has been done so far, nor anything that may (or may not - Clarence ! )  be found is out of line with one of the main-stream purported theories.
It only requires very slight re-defining on the extreme periphery, and the peripheral details were always in doubt.
The blue bag hypothesis is left intact, the traces in the car and key fob are not falsified in any way,  . . .I don't want to go on, but it still fits.
And if evidence is found the duty is then to change the hypothesis, not other other way rounnd, of course.

Except that so far most of AR's efforts have been directed to carefully selecting and rearranging the evidence to fit the hypothesis. It only works if we assume that all of AR's public utterances are a sham and there is a completely different investigation and arrangement of evidence going on parallel to what he allows us to see. This requires an enormous leap of faith which I haven't as yet been able to make.

[sami]

The English Police believe the body of Madeleine McCann, who disappeared seven years ago in the Algarve, is or has been buried in Praia da Luz, Lagos.

Sad. True. Maybe not buried in the Algarve but buried somewhere :) Gosh it's all so sad. Poor Madeleine. English police & Portuguese believe the same thing. Good for G.A. but we're now at a new stage. Whatever comes of this, the Mcs will fight on

This is probably what Gerry meant when he said he would only go to PdL if they found her DNA.  Not if they found her body.  He must know her remains would not be found.  How confident is he that her DNA won't be found though?

 I don't think gerry is confident nothing will be found just that he and his legal team will dispute it like they did with the hire car DNA...so legally they will argue nothing has been found.

     Saying they will only come if her DNA is found is putting a doubt into the public's mind that what may be found will not be conclusive enough. IMO

I think that Gerry is worried.

The expected phrase is they would only go to PdL if Madeleine is found so to say dna indicates to me that dna is at the forefront of Gerry's mind and the police finding Madeleine's dna worries Gerry far more than the police finding Madeleine herself.

My opinion only.

Imagine how he will feel if they find Margaret so.

I don't know how they can refer to their lost child as DNA, they get worse every single time they speak.

[Praia]

It maybe worth remembering Sandy and Patricia Cameron are divorced now (as per Libel hearing). Good old Sandy stayed the whole Summer of 2007 as cook, cleaner, driver, child minder etc. I wonder if SY or PJ have been in contact with him.

[whatliesbehindthesofa]

Imagine how he will feel if they find Margaret so.

I don't know how they can refer to their lost child as DNA, they get worse every single time they speak.

They didn't, they said "remains that match her DNA".

[jeanmonroe]

Speculation, MBM was already removed from 5a before KM alerted in the evening, in the bag, which was dumped in a concealed location in scrubland from whence it could be either picked up much later by the original conspirator,
--------------------------------------------------------------------

DP: "Me and Gerry you know I'm not sure what time it was, it was you know between three and four o' clock (4am, 4th May 2007) when, again looking for her. We went down err through past the Ocean Club reception, we went down err to the beach,,,"

PASSED/AROUND THE 'SNAIL' AREA?

[NickE]

Correct me if I'am wrong.
Didn't sniffer dogs from GNR trace Madeleine to the carpark outside Batista supermarket?

[petunia]

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[whatliesbehindthesofa]

Correct me if I'am wrong.
Didn't sniffer dogs from GNR trace Madeleine to the carpark outside Batista supermarket?

It was the car-park across the road from 5A, and they were following the towel scent.

[ultimaThule]

< snip >
Except that so far most of AR's efforts have been directed to carefully selecting and rearranging the evidence to fit the hypothesis. It only works if we assume that all of AR's public utterances are a sham and there is a completely different investigation and arrangement of evidence going on parallel to what he allows us to see. This requires an enormous leap of faith which I haven't as yet been able to make.

Faith is belief without proof and, as yet, I have seen no proof that AR's public utterances are a sham and a lot of evidence which suggests that Operation Grange  is intent on obtaining justice for Madeleine McCann.

[sami]

Imagine how he will feel if they find Margaret so.

I don't know how they can refer to their lost child as DNA, they get worse every single time they speak.

They didn't, they said "remains that match her DNA".

Little difference, IMO.  Why not leave it at remains.

[aiyoyo]

What does he look like fully suited and booted in this heat? I swear he is a robot, does not blink, smile or sweat.

Should he have gone in picnic gears instead in your view? Come on, give the man a break.

[jeanmonroe]

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[ltr]@TellyTone[/ltr]
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The PJ had better keep an 'eagle eye' on that!, imo.

[whatliesbehindthesofa]

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[ltr]@TellyTone[/ltr]

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Here [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] police are erecting tent to shield makeshift hide watched over by DCI Redwood. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Could just be that they've put a tent for shelter at the place they are doing the most work, or it could be that they've found something.

[Guest]

I think that Gerry is worried.

The expected phrase is they would only go to PdL if Madeleine is found so to say dna indicates to me that dna is at the forefront of Gerry's mind and the police finding Madeleine's dna worries Gerry far more than the police finding Madeleine herself.

My opinion only.

The exact quote was "They will only go to Portugal, God forbid, if any remains matching her DNA were found."  Not just DNA, but 'remains matching her DNA'.

I stand corrected but I still think it is an odd thing to say because if she was found, one would expect her to be found with other identifying items such as remnants of the pyjamas she was wearing unless these were discarded elsewhere. How many other children would be expected to be buried within a short distance of their apartment?  I agree she would have to be forensically identified but it seems to me that something else is keeping the mccanns away from portugal and this statement was the best excuse they could come up with.

[Bishop Brennan]

#praiadaluz : police are erecting tent to shield makeshift hide watched over by DCI Redwood.

Tent is beside it - not shielding it.  But clearly they are running some tests on the soil etc that they found down there.

[whatliesbehindthesofa]

Imagine how he will feel if they find Margaret so.

I don't know how they can refer to their lost child as DNA, they get worse every single time they speak.

They didn't, they said "remains that match her DNA".

Little difference, IMO.  Why not leave it at remains.

Big difference in my opinion. But my point was that they are not referring to their lost child as DNA as several here have claimed, they said "remains that match her DNA".

[CynicAl]

  This is my thinking too. The scrubland was searched but a body may have been hidden their earlier but not after the McCann's raised the alarm.

It's eminently possible. But in which case, just who was Smithman?

At a guess, an ill-conceived misdirection to convince PDL of a missing living blonde girl in jammies. 

Remember that if Smithman's surname is McCann or he was out walking on the instruction of someone of that name the bundle in his arms could not be MBM unless MBM died that evening, was moved before cadaver could be left in identifiable quantity on multiple surfaces in and around 5a, ruling out a death on a previous day (rigor mortis) and definitely ruling out her having spent any time, deceased, crammed in a sports bag, which also precludes Smithman anticipating an easy or quick temporary disposal. 

So was Smithman's bundle a heavily sedated AM? In which case the only comeback on Smithman, assuming his real initials are GM, would be if someone who gave a fleeting glance could see enough and take enough interest to identify him in the wake of a revelation that he had lied about his activities that evening. IMO this is highly likely, and if Smithman = GM then GM was, at the time, high on adrenaline and de-inhibited by wine, convinced of his master plan, legitimately carrying a sleeping child in a town where no alert had yet been sounded. The next phase would not initiate until he gave the signal for an urgent 'all clear... Proceed' which was his physical return, 'mission accomplished.' The group clearly needed such a decoy to fire up their narrative, and perhaps Tannerman was JT's off the cuff attempt to shift the location of the misdirection. 

This is, of course, only speculation attempting to rationally unite the claimed known facts in their enigmatic  minute detail. Maybe Smithman = GM and in a fit of supreme idiocy and a facepalm moment he really did carry a cadaver-leaking decomposing body through the streets in a hasty rush. 

Personally I make no conclusion that the location of the digs and Smithman are necessarily connected except for convenience of story for public consumption.

[Newintown]

CynicAl, the idea that, after 7 years of relentless PJ bashing, totally ignoring all indications that the Portuguese are even fit to breathe the same air as us, the British press is suddenly going to take a measured, balanced and sophisticated view of the whole charade does not resonate with me at all. Whatever transpires, the narrative will always be twisted to read Brits good: Portuguese bad.

I'm afraid that's probably spot on. A sad reflection of 21st Century Britain, and a new media-fuelled xenophobia that has become not only acceptable but popular and, more recently, legitimised.

Nick Ferrari was again dissing the PJ on the This Morning programme, following on from yesterday.  He seems to be in total ignorance of the PJ files and the huge amount of work and effort they put in in the early stages to find Madeleine, not to mention the £millions they've spent since May 2007 on the search.  NF only seems to be worried that the PJ concentrated on trying to implicate the McCanns, he should know that all police forces concentrate on close relatives whenever a disappearance or murder of a child takes place.  He seems to have a thing about dissing the PJ.  It would be interesting to know why he thinks the McCanns are totally innocent in his eyes.

Philip Schofield spoke to a TV reporter who was standing on the edge of the ground being searched in PDL, PS asked him if the PJ were in attendance and he said "yes, although they don't seem to be helping SY as much as they would like" (or words to that effect), how does he know, did SY personally tell him that, I doubt it.  What is with these reporters/media people.  If certain people are brought to trial for the disappearance/concealment of MBM I hope these media people are all made to eat their words.  I will personally be the first in the queue to ram their words down their sorry throats!   

[sami]

Imagine how he will feel if they find Margaret so.

I don't know how they can refer to their lost child as DNA, they get worse every single time they speak.

They didn't, they said "remains that match her DNA".

Little difference, IMO.  Why not leave it at remains.

Big difference in my opinion. But my point was that they are not referring to their lost child as DNA as several here have claimed, they said "remains that match her DNA".

Well doctors differ and patients die, so we can agree to disagree  

[Hicks]

This is the face of a man who knows beyond doubt that he, nor his wife, will never be implicated in the disappearance of his daughter.


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He's also confident that her body will never be found imo.

[CynicAl]

IF 'evidence' of a crime is not found on the 'snail' how will OG 'explain' that this HUGELY EXPENSIVE, (30 professionals for 5 whole days) UK taxpayer funded,  er, 'exercise' was BASED entirely on 'significant information from a new 'witness'?

There's an FOI, just waiting to be asked!

Redwood Landscaping Services, Ltd?