Re: Digging to start next week - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

by FH 03.06.14 12:21

beijos wrote:
FH wrote:

If there was an indication of a medical procedure like a tracheotomy being performed, then that would tend to put someone with medical training in the frame.

CPR is usually taught at schools, and tracheotomy would be learned during Portuguese national service (abolished in 2004). So, most Portuguese would know this type of first aid.

It is awesome that Portugal educates it's people to this level, we certainly don't do it in the UK. There is very little first-aid taught in school unless you do specific subjects like PE.

The only thing such evidence would indicate was that the death was probably not deliberate. However, this is all pure speculation. Let's just hope they find something and soon.

by kevmack 03.06.14 12:23

russiandoll wrote:
Pershing36 wrote:
russiandoll wrote:Sussex and Welsh police on the ground now in PdL with at least one Springer Spaniel running about, obeying commands in Welsh from the handler [ on Sky News]

Interesting as the other day they said the dogs would only be called in if they found anomalies on the radar. It was in the Sky News report when they explained how it was being divided into a search grid.

Tom Parmenter from SKY said that there was good collaboration between the forces and I took it that he was ref to the PJ and SY. The Portuguese military police have been on scene and there was a military plane reported to be in the air yesterday.

There is no way that this is all for show, to coin Mr Mitchell, that would be ludicrous. The extensive use of resources in these times of austerity for both UK and Portugal, to produce a cover up theory, that would never stand up in a court is just totally unlikely imo. I think they really know what they are doing, what they are looking for and where they're going to find it imo

by Cristobell 03.06.14 12:23

Tangled Web wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
HelenMeg wrote:Its good for a change to feel optimistic about there being developments in this case, but when I think about it realistically, I dont think anything will be found at all. It doesn't make sense to me that anything is buried in these areas. If the Mc Canns received assistance and support and there was political interference such that Amaral was 'dropped' and the case shelved in 'mid investigation' then it would make more sense that there was help in body disposal and that all evidence was disposed of. If specialist cleaners were brought in , as many believe, to clean up the apartment then there is no chance of important evidence being buried in teh ground near or within PdL. Everything contaminated will surely have been been incinerated.
This whole thing just smacks of charade. I hope I am wrong but try as I might, my optimism is just built on this surge of sudden activity. I think this 'dig' is just another stag of some other strategy.
Hi Helen, top of the morning to you!

I think the important thing to remember that those who helped them in 2007 are no longer in power. In any event, I don't think there was any sort of 'professional' clean up, as it was all too sloppy. There are photographs of the pink blanket and the blue bag and blood was detected in apartment 5A. The boot of the rental car was left open day and night to get rid of a bad smell - its unlikely MI5 (or is it MI6?) would use the family car to dispose of a body - a professional wouldn't make such an amateur error imo.

It seems to have gone a bit too far to be a charade imo Helen, I just cannot see the Portuguese AG giving permission to excavate land in PDL in high season, without good cause. I have the same doubts that you do for sure, but then I think why would two police forces, two nations in fact, put on such a show, and open themselves up to ridicule and scorn for the sake of two nondescript doctors from the UK? It makes no sense.

I know you haven't suggested it, but the idea of planting evidence is ridiculous. As the most controversial missing child case in the world, there will be as many cameras among the equipment as spades. I think the police are using several tents to muddy the waters for the press and the media and to keep them on the hop. Imo, only ONE tent is of real interest. Watching the Suzanne Pilley report on Crimewatch last night, the camera showed vast areas of land where she could have been buried and the futility of trying to search without a specific area being pinpointed.

Interesting days ahead I think, unless SY are spending the summer out there digging holes!

Morning Cristobell

I would so love for you to be right but this whole dig seems very 'staged' to me. Is it standard procedure for the media to be told about such digs and where they are going to be in a 'real' investigation? I know in past missing child cases we have seen the media at the sites where their bodies (god bless them) have been recovered, but I'd expect this as the journalists will have been following the case very closely over days/weeks. What I don't understand in this case is, seven years down the line, I'm fairly sure these digs could've been carried out without the press intrusion. However, I suppose all it would take is a tweet from a passer by in PdL of the activity and all hell would break loose! I guess that this way, the police have control over what comes out in the media    in the way of pics (exclusivepix) and keeping journalists to a minimum as opposed to a complete free for all. See, I'm convincing myself it's genuine now!

I did wonder if it could be a decoy dig but it seems like an awful lot of expense to go to for that.

Maybe all of this talk about digging for a body/evidence, forensics, archaeologists and photo's of tools and white tents is intended to increase the pressure on a certain group of people? In the past, the McCann's have hopped on a plane and travelled half way across the world to check out a much less credible line of investigation. Where are they now?

I think, for today, I'm on the non-whitewash side as all of this activity and expense under the full glare of the media doesn't appear to be a way of 'glossing over' anything!!

All IMHO.
Tangled Web.

Good morning to you too Tangled Web smilie

I feel almost 100% confident (today, lol), past the point of doubting.

Regarding your paragraph I have highlighted, that has occurred to me too. I felt, watching the Suzanne Pilley report on Crimewatch last night, that messages were being sent directly to the McCanns. In Suzanne's police the police were able to get a murder conviction on the evidence of the dogs, and the two springer spaniels were shown in action in the office basement where the murder occurred and the boot of the car Gilroy had used to transport her body. The camera showed vast areas of land where Suzanne may have been buried, and the heart rendering pleas of her parents who are desperate to bring her home.

I fully support Suzanne's parents and my heart went out to them, but the details of their case, so similar to the McCanns in that the police only had the intelligence of the sniffer dogs to go on, and have, as yet, never found a body. Despite this, David Gilroy was convicted of murder. With respect to Suzanne's parents, I think highlighting the similarities of this case at a time when digs are underway in Portugal, was imo, insensitive or intended to put pressure on certain people. If the 'show' is intended solely to put pressure on you know who, then that is not good news for those of us hoping for a quick result. Don't think anything would make those two crack nah

by wicksy 03.06.14 12:24

Very interesting to see what the Guardian mods allowed today.

I occasionally post on the Guardian (different name) and once commented on the McCann case. It was a very mild comment about the McCanns not being entirely truthful about what GA says in his book. Not only was the comment modded but I was immediately put into premod. Much 'stronger' comments were allowed today.

by Praia 03.06.14 12:25

I noticed last night that the Sun have a pic of person with spades, beside that is a headline from their agony aunt saying Dear Deirdre "my lover wants a threesome with me and my hubbie."

Well done to the sub editor for getting that in.

by Cristobell 03.06.14 12:27

jeanmonroe wrote:"There is a huge difference between planting a few grains of gunpowder"
------------------------------------------

Well, THAT 'worked a treat' in getting an innocent man a life sentence, didn't it?

WHO was the cop in charge of that 'investigation' and 'achieved great success in nailing a nachunal treasure's 'killer'?

Oh, I know, DS Hamish Campbell.

One time, second in charge of Operation Grange!

I walked into that one! lol. Touche smilie

by Pershing36 03.06.14 12:29

Did anyone see the Forensic scientist trying ram that T-bar thingy into the ground. He could barely do it, so how on Earth would anyone bury a body in the dark with basic equipment?

All seems bizarre to me.

by **PeterMac** 03.06.14 12:30

The Guardian may have whooshed the article about the dig but they have this as No 1
Stephen Lawrence murder: new inquiry launched into police corruption claims

by Liz Eagles 03.06.14 12:31

Whether you feel confident or you don't doesn't really matter at this point in time.

What really matters is what Scotland Yard and the PJ come up with.

An army can be sent to invade a country for a spurious reason (remember WMD) and the army does as it's ordered - cost is well over £7million for that and the cost of lives too horrendous to account.

You can get very cheap publicity for your trashy police service/government run by media/disgusting and depraved cover-ups for the bargain bucket price of £7m and lots of 'holding hands across the continent' shite to boot.

I include Portugal in this.

by Miraflores 03.06.14 12:33

Yes, wicksy - theGuardian/Observer have been some of the worst for peddling a rabidly pro McCann line in the past e.g. Abduction absolutely the only story, and we have all left our children to go out wining and dining for the evening, haven't we?

No, we didn't leave our children alone at night and anyway the McCanns and friends tell us that they did this for 5 or 6 evenings. Anyone who dared to say this was called a vile McCann hater, and those comments were allowed to stand.

by jeanmonroe 03.06.14 12:34

Pershing36 wrote:Did anyone see the Forensic scientist trying ram that T-bar thingy into the ground. He could barely do it, so how on Earth would anyone bury a body in the dark with basic equipment?

All seems bizarre to me.

Yeah just seen it.

Little bit weird you'd 'bury' a body in the only OPEN area (10X6 metres)( no shrubs) and not to either side where there are shrubs.

cynically. Good 'photo opportunity' for pics of 'radar' machine being used, by Met police.

Ground pretty 'flat' and pretty 'clean'

by jeanmonroe 03.06.14 12:39

FLASH: 12:38 pm.

Portuguese Police given 'permission' to 'search' TWO more 'sites' in PDL

by sallypelt 03.06.14 12:40

From Twitter:

Strimmers have been brought in to clear away some of the scrub. Police taping off grids. #McCann from @DuncanC [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

My question: If they are digging in the area that's been identified and posted on this forum, why are there apartments in the above pic? I can's see any in the area that's been identified.

by sami 03.06.14 12:42

jeanmonroe wrote:
Pershing36 wrote:Did anyone see the Forensic scientist trying ram that T-bar thingy into the ground. He could barely do it, so how on Earth would anyone bury a body in the dark with basic equipment?

All seems bizarre to me.

Yeah just seen it.

Little bit weird you'd 'bury' a body in the only OPEN area (10X6 metres)( no shrubs) and not to either side where there are shrubs.

I'm not convinced its a body they are looking for. Could be a bag of "stuff" dumped weeks/months later on waste ground. Once the person dumping knew searches were likely finished in the area, why not. Ok, it's very close to home but who knows what happened and who was involved. Of course with hindsight we would say why not the ocean or 10000km away but I guess that is why crime gets solved and criminals get caught. Something simple catches them out and the rest falls into place.

We can but hope at this point. Refreshing to see those wonderful dogs going about their work and springers too, just for good measure.

by sallypelt 03.06.14 12:42

jeanmonroe wrote:FLASH: 12:38 pm.

Portuguese Police given 'permission' to 'search' TWO more 'sites' in PDL

I just posted a link to something taken from Twitter, and this isn't the area they were searching yesterday, so maybe they HAVE had permission to dig elsewhere. But with so may areas "identified" I am beginning to question if they really know what they are looking for. However, I can't believe, for one moment, that this is all for publicity.

by Markus 2 03.06.14 12:43

They admit, however, that the body could have been removed, at a later time, from the location where it was hidden and that it is now possible to detect any clues that were left on the ground.

I doubt they will find much but you never know just a hint maybe.
Jmo but I think it was moved and the sighting by Brooks comes into it somewhere.

The McCann's did not search in the night but were out early in the morning and never said where they went? The new search is also based on a key witness, who? Is it George Brooks who saw two people at the Marina in the early hours ?

by Issy 03.06.14 12:44

Cristobell wrote:
-------------------------
really? REALLY?

"PLANTING evidence is ridiculous"?

If the British police were intent on planting something that would clear the McCanns, then the McCanns would not arouse suspicion by staying away.

Regarding replicas of toothbrushes, pjs, etc, I agree, easy to come by. But how easy to replicate the condition they would be in after 7 years in the earth? Worn and weathered by the conditions and the flora and fawna surrounding it. I used to be a fan of CSI, so I know how specific these forensic scientists can be. There is a huge difference between planting a few grains of gunpowder and presenting an article that has supposedly lain undisturbed in Portuguese soil for 7 years. Given the controversy surrounding this case, anything found now will be very carefully scrutinised.

In any event, what would be the point of the 'ole Bill' planting evidence in this case? In order to clear the McCanns, they would need to find something that links her disappearance to a stranger, 'his' DNA perhaps? How would they get hold of that? And planting the DNA of a random stranger, involves more lies, and more risks. Any McCann related articles will point the finger at the parents. Apart from not being possible, I just don't see the point in it.

It was reported some time back that the Portuguese police had Euclides Monteiro's DNA because he'd been involved in criminal activities at some stage, but I don't know if this is correct. Still, interesting thought ... and of course he's dead now.

by sallypelt 03.06.14 12:47

Markus 2 wrote:They admit, however, that the body could have been removed, at a later time, from the location where it was hidden and that it is now possible to detect any clues that were left on the ground.

I doubt they will find much but you never know just a hint maybe.
Jmo but I think it was moved and the sighting by Brooks comes into it somewhere.

The McCann's did not search in the night but were out early in the morning and never said where they went? The new search is also based on a key witness, who? Is it George Brooks who saw two people at the Marina in the early hours ?

Where was Oldfield (or was it O'Brien) who "was missing for a while" and "changed his trousers" before returning to the Tapas table? What was on his trousers that he had to change them? Mud?

Just a thought.

I'll get my coat flag

by jeanmonroe 03.06.14 12:52

The new search is also based (supposedly?) on a key witness,
----------------------------------------

THEN there can 'only' be ONE 'site'

A KEY 'witness' wouldn't say 'it was HERE, or it may have been THERE or even over THERE 500 metres away from here, or it may be by the beach, or up that huge hill you can see in the distance' would he/she?

A KEY 'witness' would say 'IT WAS EXACTLY HERE or EXACTLY THERE'

NOT 'it was all over the place'!

ete, imo: Met new 'remit' from 'somewhere' on high, "THIS 'INVESTIGATION' HAS TO END NOW! there are far too many 'plebs' asking awkward questions."

by Mirage 03.06.14 13:05

Monteiro was the given reason for the re-opening of the case in Portugal.
Monteiro reportedly became a person of interest through phone pings (although the triangulation could not have placed him as reported near 5a as stated in the press). Therefore, it must hinge on the call timings.
Monteiro was killed in a freak tractor accident.
Monteiro has now been reported as habituating that area of scrubland - no details as to why given.
Important items, photographed by the PJ and pivotal to the solving of the case, remain missing.
The area under investigation was scoured back in 2007.
People of a criminal bent trust no one.

ETA This is the only glimmer of hope I entertain.

by tasprin 03.06.14 13:09

I don't understand why the McCanns have not made a public announcement objecting to the use of dogs in the dig. Since Eddie and Keela first went into Apartment 5A, they've repeatedly said dogs are completely unreliable..

by worriedmum 03.06.14 13:11

tasprin wrote:I don't understand why the McCanns have not made a public announcement objecting to the use of dogs in the dig. Since Eddie and Keela first went into Apartment 5A, they've repeatedly said dogs are completely unreliable..

by Mirage 03.06.14 13:12

tasprin wrote:I don't understand why the McCanns have not made a public announcement objecting to the use of dogs in the dig. Since Eddie and Keela first went into Apartment 5A, they've repeatedly said dogs are completely unreliable..

They said ages ago they don't do roller-coaster rides!

ETA. Nana looks exactly like my Auntie Mary in that photograph. titter

by Markus 2 03.06.14 13:16

sallypelt wrote:
jeanmonroe wrote:FLASH: 12:38 pm.

Portuguese Police given 'permission' to 'search' TWO more 'sites' in PDL

I just posted a link to something taken from Twitter, and this isn't the area they were searching yesterday, so maybe they HAVE had permission to dig elsewhere. But with so may areas "identified" I am beginning to question if they really know what they are looking for. However, I can't believe, for one moment, that this is all for publicity.

Just to say we have done all we can, that is your lot . A lot of standing around imo ,stick a pin in a map somewhere and see what we come up with . They need to search the area inch by inch but I supose at least they can say we are going through the motions of a search .

by Mirage 03.06.14 13:17

Markus 2 wrote:
sallypelt wrote:
jeanmonroe wrote:FLASH: 12:38 pm.

Portuguese Police given 'permission' to 'search' TWO more 'sites' in PDL

I just posted a link to something taken from Twitter, and this isn't the area they were searching yesterday, so maybe they HAVE had permission to dig elsewhere. But with so may areas "identified" I am beginning to question if they really know what they are looking for. However, I can't believe, for one moment, that this is all for publicity.
Just to say we have done all we can, that is your lot . A lot of standing around imo ,stick a pin in a map somewhere and see what we come up with . They need to search the area inch by inch but I supose at least they can say we are going through the motions of a search .

Should have got Phil in from Time Team.

by tasprin 03.06.14 13:17

A very good video on South Wales Police website
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by Issy 03.06.14 13:17

Cristobell wrote:
-------------------------
really? REALLY?

"PLANTING evidence is ridiculous"?

If the British police were intent on planting something that would clear the McCanns, then the McCanns would not arouse suspicion by staying away.

Regarding replicas of toothbrushes, pjs, etc, I agree, easy to come by. But how easy to replicate the condition they would be in after 7 years in the earth? Worn and weathered by the conditions and the flora and fawna surrounding it. I used to be a fan of CSI, so I know how specific these forensic scientists can be. There is a huge difference between planting a few grains of gunpowder and presenting an article that has supposedly lain undisturbed in Portuguese soil for 7 years. Given the controversy surrounding this case, anything found now will be very carefully scrutinised.

In any event, what would be the point of the 'ole Bill' planting evidence in this case? In order to clear the McCanns, they would need to find something that links her disappearance to a stranger, 'his' DNA perhaps? How would they get hold of that? And planting the DNA of a random stranger, involves more lies, and more risks. Any McCann related articles will point the finger at the parents. Apart from not being possible, I just don't see the point in it.

It was reported some time back that the Portuguese police had Euclides Monteiro's DNA because he'd been involved in criminal activities at some stage, but I don't know if this is correct. Still, interesting thought ... and of course he's dead now.

by gbwales 03.06.14 13:31

Issy wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
-------------------------
really? REALLY?

"PLANTING evidence is ridiculous"?

If the British police were intent on planting something that would clear the McCanns, then the McCanns would not arouse suspicion by staying away.

Regarding replicas of toothbrushes, pjs, etc, I agree, easy to come by. But how easy to replicate the condition they would be in after 7 years in the earth? Worn and weathered by the conditions and the flora and fawna surrounding it. I used to be a fan of CSI, so I know how specific these forensic scientists can be. There is a huge difference between planting a few grains of gunpowder and presenting an article that has supposedly lain undisturbed in Portuguese soil for 7 years. Given the controversy surrounding this case, anything found now will be very carefully scrutinised.

In any event, what would be the point of the 'ole Bill' planting evidence in this case? In order to clear the McCanns, they would need to find something that links her disappearance to a stranger, 'his' DNA perhaps? How would they get hold of that? And planting the DNA of a random stranger, involves more lies, and more risks. Any McCann related articles will point the finger at the parents. Apart from not being possible, I just don't see the point in it.

It was reported some time back that the Portuguese police had Euclides Monteiro's DNA because he'd been involved in criminal activities at some stage, but I don't know if this is correct. Still, interesting thought ... and of course he's dead now.

Once again - even IF they tried to plant stuff they would still be stuck with a completely implausible timeline, set of activities by the perp, and 100% lack of forensics at 5A.

by Markus 2 03.06.14 13:32

Mirage wrote:
Markus 2 wrote:
sallypelt wrote:
jeanmonroe wrote:FLASH: 12:38 pm.

Portuguese Police given 'permission' to 'search' TWO more 'sites' in PDL

I just posted a link to something taken from Twitter, and this isn't the area they were searching yesterday, so maybe they HAVE had permission to dig elsewhere. But with so may areas "identified" I am beginning to question if they really know what they are looking for. However, I can't believe, for one moment, that this is all for publicity.
Just to say we have done all we can, that is your lot . A lot of standing around imo ,stick a pin in a map somewhere and see what we come up with . They need to search the area inch by inch but I supose at least they can say we are going through the motions of a search .
Should have got Phil in from Time Team.

Might as well do it properly or not at all, what are they working from, is it ,might be in one of those areas, concrete evidence , or just lets seem to be doing something

How long would the Time Team be out there, Locals would be up in arms then, smilie

why waste money on a whim

by HelenMeg 03.06.14 13:37

Just read article page 20 of Times -reporter states words to the effect of ' Mr Smith thought that man carrying the child resembled Mr McCann, but Mr McCann has been ruled out as a suspect.'

Is this sloppy reporting by The Times or factual reporting by The Times. Either way, its reading things like this that makes me very pessimistic ....