Re: Digging to start next week - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

by sami Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:16 pm

Justformaddie wrote:
FH wrote:
Justformaddie wrote:Would doctors try to resuscitate if found after 45mins?
Unless you are present when a person stops breathing, you have no idea how long they have not been breathing for. If you find someone who is not breathing, it might only be a matter of seconds/minutes and they might still be reviveable.

It is standard procedure to start rescussitation in hospitals if you find a patient has stopped breathing, even if you don't know when it happened. Even if they look like they have been dead for a while.
So if her body is found with broken ribs would they be in the picture then or could they blame it on the burglar?

So he's a burglar, who murders children, tries to rescussitate them, takes them with him when he can't, buries them with a shovel that he happens to carry on his person, all the while leaving no forensic trace.

If you are in the Hogan Howe school of training, probably. If living in the real world probably not.

by Mirage Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:18 pm

Justformaddie wrote:
FH wrote:
Justformaddie wrote:Would doctors try to resuscitate if found after 45mins?
Unless you are present when a person stops breathing, you have no idea how long they have not been breathing for. If you find someone who is not breathing, it might only be a matter of seconds/minutes and they might still be reviveable.

It is standard procedure to start rescussitation in hospitals if you find a patient has stopped breathing, even if you don't know when it happened. Even if they look like they have been dead for a while.
So if her body is found with broken ribs would they be in the picture then or could they blame it on the burglar?

The burglar will morph into a malcontent medical student who dropped out of medical school.

by HelenMeg Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:19 pm

Cristobell wrote:
HelenMeg wrote:Its good for a change to feel optimistic about there being developments in this case, but when I think about it realistically, I dont think anything will be found at all. It doesn't make sense to me that anything is buried in these areas. If the Mc Canns received assistance and support and there was political interference such that Amaral was 'dropped' and the case shelved in 'mid investigation' then it would make more sense that there was help in body disposal and that all evidence was disposed of. If specialist cleaners were brought in , as many believe, to clean up the apartment then there is no chance of important evidence being buried in teh ground near or within PdL. Everything contaminated will surely have been been incinerated.
This whole thing just smacks of charade. I hope I am wrong but try as I might, my optimism is just built on this surge of sudden activity. I think this 'dig' is just another stag of some other strategy.
Hi Helen, top of the morning to you!

I think the important thing to remember that those who helped them in 2007 are no longer in power. In any event, I don't think there was any sort of 'professional' clean up, as it was all too sloppy. There are photographs of the pink blanket and the blue bag and blood was detected in apartment 5A. The boot of the rental car was left open day and night to get rid of a bad smell - its unlikely MI5 (or is it MI6?) would use the family car to dispose of a body - a professional wouldn't make such an amateur error imo.

It seems to have gone a bit too far to be a charade imo Helen, I just cannot see the Portuguese AG giving permission to excavate land in PDL in high season, without good cause. I have the same doubts that you do for sure, but then I think why would two police forces, two nations in fact, put on such a show, and open themselves up to ridicule and scorn for the sake of two nondescript doctors from the UK? It makes no sense.

I know you haven't suggested it, but the idea of planting evidence is ridiculous. As the most controversial missing child case in the world, there will be as many cameras among the equipment as spades. I think the police are using several tents to muddy the waters for the press and the media and to keep them on the hop. Imo, only ONE tent is of real interest. Watching the Suzanne Pilley report on Crimewatch last night, the camera showed vast areas of land where she could have been buried and the futility of trying to search without a specific area being pinpointed.

Interesting days ahead I think, unless SY are spending the summer out there digging holes!

Thanks Cristobell - its easy to slide into a pessimistic mood over this case with the twists and turns.
So good to read uplifting posts.. smilie

by Justformaddie Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:19 pm

sami wrote:
Justformaddie wrote:
FH wrote:
Justformaddie wrote:Would doctors try to resuscitate if found after 45mins?
Unless you are present when a person stops breathing, you have no idea how long they have not been breathing for. If you find someone who is not breathing, it might only be a matter of seconds/minutes and they might still be reviveable.

It is standard procedure to start rescussitation in hospitals if you find a patient has stopped breathing, even if you don't know when it happened. Even if they look like they have been dead for a while.
So if her body is found with broken ribs would they be in the picture then or could they blame it on the burglar?

So he's a burglar, who murders children, tries to rescussitate them, takes them with him when he can't, buries them with a shovel that he happens to carry on his person, all the while leaving no forensic trace.

If you are in the Hogan Howe school of training, probably. If living in the real world probably not.

Agree Sami, I mean could evidence of resus be blamed on the murderer sorry.

by canada12 Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:22 pm

I still think there was something in Kate's "dream" - when she called the PJ to tell them she'd dreamed that Madeleine was dead and on a hill. This resulted in the area being searched at the time by the PJ - although Gerry disputes this and claims the PJ made up the story that Kate called them - says she never had any such dream.

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Police Inspector Ricardo Paiva, who acted as a liaison between the McCanns and Portuguese detectives in the days following their daughter’s disappearance, said the dream was a "turning point" in the investigation.

He said that Mrs McCann told him in a tearful telephone conversation in late July 2007 that she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that police should search for her there.
....
The senior detective said the land was searched but nothing was found. “That is when we decided to send the specialist dogs in. British police informed us about how they could detect the scent of death.”

And then...
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Pivot: Gerry McCann repudiated the PJ Inspectors who stated in court that their daughter Madeleine is dead. The father of the child disappeared in the Algarve, accuses therefore the Inspector Ricardo Paiva of lying, when he said that his wife Kate called him, in the summer of 2007, telling that she had a dream where her daughter was dead and buried at hill in Praia da Luz. The PJ inspector said that this dream was decisive to change the course of investigations.
...
GM: I would like to make absolutely clear that Kate has never had a dream, that Madeleine was buried somewhere. And, I don't know if something has been lost in interpretation, but that didn't happen.

I tend to believe the police officer more than Gerry.

In any case, if the ground was searched after Kate's "tearful phonecall" then it would not likely be searched again, and would therefore be a perfect place to bury evidence, a body, or whatever...many days or weeks after the fact.

And following through with this theory, I still believe that if Kate did make that phonecall, it may have been entirely deliberate and pre-planned.

Completely IMO.

by cass7 Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:25 pm

the dogs indicated in 5a in 2007 , kates clothes were on the list of items , now imo something must have been found to reopen the case and bring it on , why should portugal go through all this without results ? this case will never go away so the best that portugal and sy can do is work together to find out the truth , and i really hope this is the case , too much damage done to both uk and portugal , they have to get results this time

by jeanmonroe Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:28 pm

Oh Cristobell
"I know you haven't suggested it, but the idea of planting evidence is ridiculous."
-------------------------
really? REALLY?

"PLANTING evidence is ridiculous"?

I have 'seen' enough 'planting of evidence', BY police, to last me a lifetime!

IT is totally 'possible'

There are 'replica pj's' 'blankets' 'toothbrushes' etc

Has EVERY set of 'Maddie pj's' EVERY 'Maddie blanket' been 'accounted' for?

Nothing, i repeat ,NOTHING, imo, is beyond the 'scope' of the ol' Bill, 'solving' ANY 'baffling' crime!

And breathe........

by NickE Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:43 pm

ChippyM wrote:
Justformaddie wrote:But I'm confused cause smithman didn't have very dark skin, did he?

I really think Matthew Wright is being an idiot and confusing the many suspects in the media!

Didn't Monterio had an alibi for the time?
Something with his computer if I remember correct.

by **PeterMac** Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:50 pm

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by cass7 Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:52 pm

the mcanns have always said that they believe no harm has come to madeleine, now there was too many in the group to believe in stranger abduction with all the comings and goings back and forth during the checks , how the hell can they not suspect any of the group is beyond me and vise versa , i still maintain that not everyone in the group knew what was going on , 7 years is a long time for any one of the group to change their minds , and i hope that everyone has been re questioned before the digs , something has happened and for protection only sy and the pj will know what , and imo this is whats happening now

by FH Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:55 pm

Justformaddie wrote:
FH wrote:
Justformaddie wrote:Would doctors try to resuscitate if found after 45mins?
Unless you are present when a person stops breathing, you have no idea how long they have not been breathing for. If you find someone who is not breathing, it might only be a matter of seconds/minutes and they might still be reviveable.

It is standard procedure to start rescussitation in hospitals if you find a patient has stopped breathing, even if you don't know when it happened. Even if they look like they have been dead for a while.
So if her body is found with broken ribs would they be in the picture then or could they blame it on the burglar?

If a body was found with a fractured sternum / broken ribs, all you could tell would be that someone had tried to rescussitate it. That could be done by anyone that has first aid training, or even someone without first aid training desperate to help.

If there was an indication of a medical procedure like a tracheotomy being performed, then that would tend to put someone with medical training in the frame.

by Cristobell Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:00 pm

jeanmonroe wrote:Oh Cristobell
"I know you haven't suggested it, but the idea of planting evidence is ridiculous."
-------------------------
really? REALLY?

"PLANTING evidence is ridiculous"?

I have 'seen' enough 'planting of evidence', BY police, to last me a lifetime!

IT is totally 'possible'

There are 'replica pj's' 'blankets' 'toothbrushes' etc

Has EVERY set of 'Maddie pj's' EVERY 'Maddie blanket' been 'accounted' for?

Nothing, i repeat ,NOTHING, imo, is beyond the 'scope' of the ol' Bill, 'solving' ANY 'baffling' crime!

And breathe........

If the British police were intent on planting something that would clear the McCanns, then the McCanns would not arouse suspicion by staying away.

Regarding replicas of toothbrushes, pjs, etc, I agree, easy to come by. But how easy to replicate the condition they would be in after 7 years in the earth? Worn and weathered by the conditions and the flora and fawna surrounding it. I used to be a fan of CSI, so I know how specific these forensic scientists can be. There is a huge difference between planting a few grains of gunpowder and presenting an article that has supposedly lain undisturbed in Portuguese soil for 7 years. Given the controversy surrounding this case, anything found now will be very carefully scrutinised.

In any event, what would be the point of the 'ole Bill' planting evidence in this case? In order to clear the McCanns, they would need to find something that links her disappearance to a stranger, 'his' DNA perhaps? How would they get hold of that? And planting the DNA of a random stranger, involves more lies, and more risks. Any McCann related articles will point the finger at the parents. Apart from not being possible, I just don't see the point in it.

by Ghengis Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:01 pm

aquila wrote:'We Just Want to Know What Happened to Maddie'

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Normally agree with Pat Brown, but I dont go along with this whole whitewash scenario.

Something is afoot, too much time money and energy has gone into this now.

by beijos Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:02 pm

FH wrote:

If there was an indication of a medical procedure like a tracheotomy being performed, then that would tend to put someone with medical training in the frame.

CPR is usually taught at schools, and tracheotomy would be learned during Portuguese national service (abolished in 2004). So, most Portuguese would know this type of first aid.

by Tangled Web Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:02 pm

Cristobell wrote:
HelenMeg wrote:Its good for a change to feel optimistic about there being developments in this case, but when I think about it realistically, I dont think anything will be found at all. It doesn't make sense to me that anything is buried in these areas. If the Mc Canns received assistance and support and there was political interference such that Amaral was 'dropped' and the case shelved in 'mid investigation' then it would make more sense that there was help in body disposal and that all evidence was disposed of. If specialist cleaners were brought in , as many believe, to clean up the apartment then there is no chance of important evidence being buried in teh ground near or within PdL. Everything contaminated will surely have been been incinerated.
This whole thing just smacks of charade. I hope I am wrong but try as I might, my optimism is just built on this surge of sudden activity. I think this 'dig' is just another stag of some other strategy.
Hi Helen, top of the morning to you!

I think the important thing to remember that those who helped them in 2007 are no longer in power. In any event, I don't think there was any sort of 'professional' clean up, as it was all too sloppy. There are photographs of the pink blanket and the blue bag and blood was detected in apartment 5A. The boot of the rental car was left open day and night to get rid of a bad smell - its unlikely MI5 (or is it MI6?) would use the family car to dispose of a body - a professional wouldn't make such an amateur error imo.

It seems to have gone a bit too far to be a charade imo Helen, I just cannot see the Portuguese AG giving permission to excavate land in PDL in high season, without good cause. I have the same doubts that you do for sure, but then I think why would two police forces, two nations in fact, put on such a show, and open themselves up to ridicule and scorn for the sake of two nondescript doctors from the UK? It makes no sense.

I know you haven't suggested it, but the idea of planting evidence is ridiculous. As the most controversial missing child case in the world, there will be as many cameras among the equipment as spades. I think the police are using several tents to muddy the waters for the press and the media and to keep them on the hop. Imo, only ONE tent is of real interest. Watching the Suzanne Pilley report on Crimewatch last night, the camera showed vast areas of land where she could have been buried and the futility of trying to search without a specific area being pinpointed.

Interesting days ahead I think, unless SY are spending the summer out there digging holes!

Morning Cristobell smilie

I would so love for you to be right but this whole dig seems very 'staged' to me. Is it standard procedure for the media to be told about such digs and where they are going to be in a 'real' investigation? I know in past missing child cases we have seen the media at the sites where their bodies (god bless them) have been recovered, but I'd expect this as the journalists will have been following the case very closely over days/weeks. What I don't understand in this case is, seven years down the line, I'm fairly sure these digs could've been carried out without the press intrusion. However, I suppose all it would take is a tweet from a passer by in PdL of the activity and all hell would break loose! I guess that this way, the police have control over what comes out in the media winkwink

in the way of pics (exclusivepix) and keeping journalists to a minimum as opposed to a complete free for all. See, I'm convincing myself it's genuine now!

I did wonder if it could be a decoy dig but it seems like an awful lot of expense to go to for that.

Maybe all of this talk about digging for a body/evidence, forensics, archaeologists and photo's of tools and white tents is intended to increase the pressure on a certain group of people? In the past, the McCann's have hopped on a plane and travelled half way across the world to check out a much less credible line of investigation. Where are they now?

I think, for today, I'm on the non-whitewash side as all of this activity and expense under the full glare of the media doesn't appear to be a way of 'glossing over' anything!!

All IMHO.
Tangled Web.

by Guest Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:05 pm

PeterMac wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

More uplifting photos, thank you PM.
NOW we are getting somewhere. First the dogs, then the radar depending on the dogs' alerts I assume is the process.

by Garrincha Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:07 pm

The Guardian article (& all comments) now seems to have disappeared.....

by **PeterMac** Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:10 pm

Rover, Look you !, look you

by jeanmonroe Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:13 pm

"There is a huge difference between planting a few grains of gunpowder"
------------------------------------------

Well, THAT 'worked a treat' in getting an innocent man a life sentence, didn't it?

WHO was the cop in charge of that 'investigation' and 'achieved great success in nailing a nachunal treasure's 'killer'?

Oh, I know, DS Hamish Campbell.

One time, second in charge of Operation Grange!

by wicksy Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:13 pm

Garrincha wrote:The Guardian article (& all comments) now seems to have disappeared.....

It's still here, Garrincha.

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Comments closed now, though :-(

by Ghengis Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:14 pm

Talk of "staged" or "decoy" digs really is complete utter nonsense imo. Concentrate on the facts in hand and disregard all media spin, thats all that can be done. There is a very real search underway in a specific area, I am hopeful of a positive result.

by AndyB Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:14 pm

Cristobell wrote:In any event, what would be the point of the 'ole Bill' planting evidence in this case? In order to clear the McCanns, they would need to find something that links her disappearance to a stranger, 'his' DNA perhaps? How would they get hold of that? And planting the DNA of a random stranger, involves more lies, and more risks. Any McCann related articles will point the finger at the parents. Apart from not being possible, I just don't see the point in it.

You're assuming that the objective of any cover-up is to clear the McCanns. If there is a whitewash going on, its much more likely IMO that its to hide something that would come out if Madeleine's disappearance were to be investigated honestly. Something that the powers that be would very much like to remain hidden. Under those circumstances, the opportunity to frame the McCanns (for example for murder, where the Met do have jurisdiction) could be beneficial in helping it all to go away

by Garrincha Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:15 pm

Thanks wicksy - I just noticed that too. Seems it's just been dropped from the front page, but is still available (with comments) via their search facility

by gbwales Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:15 pm

Garrincha wrote:The Guardian article (& all comments) now seems to have disappeared.....

It's still there - just gone from front of site:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Comments still there but closed - and with a load of those by "amused observer" / obsessive pro "[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]" removed by moderator.
A good breadth of comments and encouragement for people to find out more, plus links etc.

by Guest Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:16 pm

Garrincha wrote:The Guardian article (& all comments) now seems to have disappeared.....

The article is still online under UK News (off the front page) - but the comments have been closed and taken off.
I did "report" a couple for naming names, I was quite astonished they were allowed to do that.

ETA Just found how to access the comments again, many deleted though.

by Guest Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:17 pm

gbwales wrote:
Garrincha wrote:The Guardian article (& all comments) now seems to have disappeared.....

It's still there - just gone from front of site:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Comments still there but closed - and with a load of those by "amused observer" / obsessive pro "[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]" removed by moderator.
A good breadth of comments and encouragement for people to find out more, plus links etc.

Links to here too eyebrows

by gbwales Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:17 pm

daffodil wrote:
Garrincha wrote:The Guardian article (& all comments) now seems to have disappeared.....

The article is still online under UK News (off the front page) - but the comments have been closed and taken off.
I did "report" a couple for naming names, I was quite astonished they were allowed to do that.

Comments are closed but still visible.

by frost Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:18 pm

Garrincha wrote:The Guardian article (& all comments) now seems to have disappeared.....

it is still there but comments are being closed http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/02/scrubland-search-in-hunt-for-madeleine-mccann?commentpage=1

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by Garrincha Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:19 pm

Just another point about the Guardian article - I read that paper every day online & it's extremely unusual for them to allow comments about this case. So maybe the times really are a-changing?

by kevmack Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:20 pm

riskybuisness wrote:Although the poster on the Guardian page ID735113 is obviously a McCann pro, I do have to agree with them (on one point) that some of the posts over the last few days re adding captions on the search photos, have to me seemed in bad taste. I think this has been going on for so long that it seems that sometimes the forum looses site of the fact that a little girl is missing more than likely dead and at any moment one of the pictures could be portraying the police finding her body. I will also add before anyone else does -most on here do seem to care more than her own parents ever have- but can we think a bit before humorising what could possible be a bad moment for those involved - the twins , her old nursery teachers and some other family members and the poor police digging for her or clues. Sorry if this offends those who adding the captions - but I just saying how I feel about it

Totally agree, yes I understand the need for humour at times, but I don't think this is one of them