Re: Madeleine McCann search to enter 'substantial phase' of activity

by angusallan 22.05.14 14:42

Tony Bennett wrote:I've just seen the BBC's news report on Mark Rowley's press conference and statement.

They are putting 'Smithman' at the very heart of their news story, thus:

Madeleine McCann search to enter 'substantial phase' of activity

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Thursday 3 May 2007: Timeline
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20:30 Kate and Gerry McCann leave their apartment to have dinner at a Tapas bar
21:05 Gerry McCann checks on Madeleine and her siblings
22:00 A man is seen carrying a child wearing pyjamas heading towards the ocean
22:00 Kate McCann raises the alarm that Madeleine has gone missing

Yet, never mind all the many other doubts about the validity of the Smiths' claimed sighting, DCI Redwood on CrimeWatch on 14 October 2013 very deliberately led the viewing public to believe that members of this 'Irish family' were capable of producing two e-fits (both of different men, so it seems), despite the fact that all the three Smiths who gave statements to the PJ said they didn't see his face properly because it was dark, his face was hidden, we only saw him for a second or two, etc. etc.

How is it that some, even on this forum, can swallow such balderdash - hook, line and sinker?

Fleffer what,s your wider agenda here?

by stillsloppingout 22.05.14 14:43

The fun will start when Portugal produce there findings .

But the only way there [ Portugal's ] new investigation would have been credible ,is if they had insisted the Tapas bunch be re interviewed under caution, via extradition notices, the fact that after all this time it has NOT been requested ,appears to show they are also paying lip service to the required conclusion which the UK seeks .

by Woofer 22.05.14 14:43

tiny wrote:"I want to be able to go back to Kate and Gerry at some stage in the future and tell them we've haven`t got to the bottom of this, or second best is to go back to them and say we've turned over every stone and we still can't get to the PJ`s safe where Maddie`s hair is stored."

by nglfi 22.05.14 14:43

Mirage wrote:
endgame wrote:
Riddlemeree wrote:Hello - long time lurker here - my thought is what if : the police KNOW ... Because let's face it ... There are plenty of pointers...but they need a caste iron case because the core suspects are lawyered up to the eyebrows. How would they play it ? Especially since they know what suspects are capable of. What if they needed core suspects to not know they were in the spotlight - but every so often they wanted to give them a poke, a frisson of fear ... Might they play the most incredible media game - putting Holmes like clues into their press releases which will later jump out as "we knew all along " pointers while deluging the media with distractions . The suspects will be on a roller coaster of wondering whether they have finally been fingered or whether the police are still on side chasing up all sorts of red herrings . It may turn out. The police have played a blinder ... All IMHO.
Welcome Riddlemeree. Without wishing to dampen your enthusiasm and, of course everything is possible, I can only ask if you can name a single case where this technique has been used and used successfully. I can't. Most police investigations follow a path of collecting evidence, following leads created by that evidence, forming conclusions from that evidence and when those conclusions are certain enough, charging someone with the crime. I can see no reason to vary this tried and trusted technique with reference to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann
The big day arrives. The court case of the century.........

Scenario 1.Day 1
The morning session is taken up with reading a list of witness names to 150 potential jurors in case they know any of them. As each name is read out one or two people raise their hand and peel off from the assembled crowd. Down to 50 potential jurors by coffee break. At 11am the judge continues, "Cherie Blair....Gordon Brown" Luckily, the court usher has opened up the double doors. (Exeunt Omnes.)

Scenario 2. Day 1
Defence lawyer: My Lord, it is my contention that neither party can receive a fair trial as a result of duress they have suffered over seven years of police lies and obfuscation when they thought they were being kept informed of the investigation progress. A tragedy in itself that two victims should be victimised twice over by dint of unorthodox and unsanctioned police practices that have struck a blow at the heart of our democracy.
Judge: I agree. You are free to go Mr and Mrs Mc. Have a nice day!

I don't think this approach by SY could lead to a mistrial. If the macs are innocent then they have lost nothing and beem unaffected by the police telling them they aren't suspects. If they are guilty, SY can legitimately say at the time we made that statement we didn't consider them suspects. Later evidence came to light which suggested they were and the direction of our investigation changed. How would they ever prove it was a deliberate ploy? I hope they haven't written it down anywhere?!

On another point, what has caused this sea change in attitude towards the media? Rowley calling for responsible reporting is very strange, given the usual fervour for all sorts of unsavoury characters? Is it related to any substantial evidential developments? I thought his point about not wanting to alert potential suspects was very revealing. Why the sudden concern for that now? Are they about to uncover something?

by Mirage 22.05.14 14:46

"nglfi" wrote:

On another point, what has caused this sea change in attitude towards the media? Rowley calling for responsible reporting is very strange, given the usual fervour for all sorts of unsavoury characters? Is it related to any substantial evidential developments? I thought his point about not wanting to alert potential suspects was very revealing. Why the sudden concern for that now? Are they about to uncover something?
--------------------------------
A mysterious black hole that gobbled up the truth, I imagine.

by Pershing36 22.05.14 14:47

tiny wrote:How can sy get away with this if they do whitewash it, they have the main players in the palm of there hands who have all LIED but are not suspects(can you believe that) but they go to Portugal to look for
cleaner ,housebreakers,gypsys,and a multitude of other lowlife(so they say) to say I am angry is an understatement.

What they have done is bewildered the public into thinking it could be just about anyone resembling a human being who was in Portugal at the time. They can now say their investigation was exhaustive and they studied a variety of leads. Anything other than the original investigation the PJ followed will be a satisfactory outcome it seems.

The sad thing is a majority of the public will just accept it.

by bobbin 22.05.14 14:47

Cherry Blossom wrote:Met statement day after The Times artical mentions murder!!

Met statement the day after Theresa May gives them the larapping bo**ocking they all deserved.... no, I'm being unfair.
I think there are thousands of good police men and women who themselves have been bullied into not speaking out, because of fear of reprisals from the corrupt officials hiding in their midst, and these honest men and women, who have become uncertain and unhappy, compromised in their workplace, may now be beginning to breath a sigh of relief that 'whistle-blowers' will be more supported in coming forward.

A whitewash may well become exposed from 'within' by any of the more moral and dignified police personnel.
It will come out, one way or the other.
Equally, the Portuguese are still in there and have their own 'dignity' to re-establish.

Any corrupt whitewash squad in the MET may well think they can gross this over, but they've been told that their days are numbered.
The public are not going to let this rest on a "Sorry, we looked at every angle, honest, but you know, sometimes even the MET can be beaten by really intelligent, smart, canny, perpetrators of crime".

And what a shame for these 'perpetrators', who could have 'boasted' of being the best 'out-witterers' of the 'best police force in the whole wide world' for they will not be able to bathe in such glory and adulation, or go down in history as bigger, better and even more famous than Bonny and Clyde, because they can't let anyone know who they are, because if they did that, they'd be giving the game away.

It's a bit like all that reward money, and not being able to get their hands on it. Tantalising.
All that potential adulation, fame and glory, 'A' leb red-carpet, the multi-million earnings from sitting on sofas from the far west to the far east, and no-one will ever know who the perpetrators were.
Just back to the mundane job, the mundane life, the mundane mortgage, the mundane wife and a mundane epitaph at the end of it all....died 'un-recognised' splat

by utahagen 22.05.14 14:52

Riddlemere wrote, "...what if : the police KNOW ... Because let's face it ... There are plenty of pointers...but they need a caste iron case because the core suspects are lawyered up to the eyebrows. How would they play it ? Especially since they know what suspects are capable of..."

Amen, Riddlemere. Tony Bennett, whom I respect very much, has made a strong case that this all may be a whitewash. OK, that's possible, perhaps probable. However, there is another real possibility: that Portugal has let SY know that they will relentlessly pursue the truth and will go public with that truth eventually, even if it means they'll point to the McCanns as the culprits and even if that is in spite of the fact that Portugal will not or cannot prosecute the McCanns. If SY believes Portugal eventually may make a dramatic, public statement that the McCanns were responsible for Madeleine's disappearance, perhaps SY has backed away from trying to protect the McCanns at all cost.

Further -- and this is more to your point -- perhaps SY wants to keep the McCanns off-balance. A close friend of mine who is high up in the NYPD tells me often: when police publicly talk about how specific people are not suspects, that means nothing.

All indications from the McCanns' behavior over the past few months are that they are very nervous -- more nervous than they've ever been. It seems Tony Bennett is much more convinced it's a whitewash than the McCanns are!

by Cristobell 22.05.14 15:00

endgame wrote:
Riddlemeree wrote:Hello - long time lurker here - my thought is what if : the police KNOW ... Because let's face it ... There are plenty of pointers...but they need a caste iron case because the core suspects are lawyered up to the eyebrows. How would they play it ? Especially since they know what suspects are capable of. What if they needed core suspects to not know they were in the spotlight - but every so often they wanted to give them a poke, a frisson of fear ... Might they play the most incredible media game - putting Holmes like clues into their press releases which will later jump out as "we knew all along " pointers while deluging the media with distractions . The suspects will be on a roller coaster of wondering whether they have finally been fingered or whether the police are still on side chasing up all sorts of red herrings . It may turn out. The police have played a blinder ... All IMHO.
Welcome Riddlemeree. Without wishing to dampen your enthusiasm and, of course everything is possible, I can only ask if you can name a single case where this technique has been used and used successfully. I can't. Most police investigations follow a path of collecting evidence, following leads created by that evidence, forming conclusions from that evidence and when those conclusions are certain enough, charging someone with the crime. I can see no reason to vary this tried and trusted technique with reference to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann

Hi Endgame, hope you don't mind my contributing an answer. smilie

I have no doubt whatsoever that police the world over use subterfuge to catch their criminals. I am hard pushed to name specific cases, other than two that became headlines - other instances may have successfully run their course without ever being discovered. The first that comes to mind is the case of Rachel Nickell, a young woman murdered on Wimbledon Common in 1992 and the honey trap that was set for their only suspect at that time, Colin Stagg.

More recently it has come to light that police worked undercover in the Stephen Lawrence case, some becoming so immersed in their double lives that they could not separate their aliases from their real identities.

The truth is, we have no idea how much 'undercover' work, or subterfuge the police do carry out in order to solve a crime, but I would imagine that bending the truth plays a big part in every manner of detective work.

The idea that everything Scotland Yard does during a live investigation is honest and transparent is ludicrous, the role of the policeman has evolved somewhat since Dixon of Dock Green. In this case they are not dealing with smash and grab robbers, and as the nature of the crime is sophisticated, so too must be the investigation. I think one of the reasons this case is so fascinating is because it has been like a 7 year game of Cat and Mouse, and its a cunning little mouse that has surrounded itself with top notch lawyers.

by margaret 22.05.14 15:01

SY can whitewash it all they want it doesn't change a thing. All evidence thus far points to the parents tapas group complicit in something.

Someone, somewhere will come along and blow this wide open one day and SY along with the McCanns will look as guilty as sin.

The McCanns have very little support and that won't change, social media will see to more being educated everyday.

Good luck with it all anyone who is covering something up! big grin

by **Tony Bennett** 22.05.14 15:08

Bishop Brennan wrote:Have yourself a brandy there Tony and watch out for your BP. It's all theatre now as you know. The characters taking part are barely even relevant.

I was hoping you might suggest a strawberry vodka [Sir Clement Freud to Kate McCann, 'madeleine', p. 194].

I think the blood pressure problem might be a kind of allergic reaction to anything connected with Operation Strange

by endgame 22.05.14 15:18

Cristobell wrote:
endgame wrote:
Riddlemeree wrote:Hello - long time lurker here - my thought is what if : the police KNOW ... Because let's face it ... There are plenty of pointers...but they need a caste iron case because the core suspects are lawyered up to the eyebrows. How would they play it ? Especially since they know what suspects are capable of. What if they needed core suspects to not know they were in the spotlight - but every so often they wanted to give them a poke, a frisson of fear ... Might they play the most incredible media game - putting Holmes like clues into their press releases which will later jump out as "we knew all along " pointers while deluging the media with distractions . The suspects will be on a roller coaster of wondering whether they have finally been fingered or whether the police are still on side chasing up all sorts of red herrings . It may turn out. The police have played a blinder ... All IMHO.
Welcome Riddlemeree. Without wishing to dampen your enthusiasm and, of course everything is possible, I can only ask if you can name a single case where this technique has been used and used successfully. I can't. Most police investigations follow a path of collecting evidence, following leads created by that evidence, forming conclusions from that evidence and when those conclusions are certain enough, charging someone with the crime. I can see no reason to vary this tried and trusted technique with reference to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann
Hi Endgame, hope you don't mind my contributing an answer.

I have no doubt whatsoever that police the world over use subterfuge to catch their criminals. I am hard pushed to name specific cases, other than two that became headlines - other instances may have successfully run their course without ever being discovered. The first that comes to mind is the case of Rachel Nickell, a young woman murdered on Wimbledon Common in 1992 and the honey trap that was set for their only suspect at that time, Colin Stagg.

More recently it has come to light that police worked undercover in the Stephen Lawrence case, some becoming so immersed in their double lives that they could not separate their aliases from their real identities.

The truth is, we have no idea how much 'undercover' work, or subterfuge the police do carry out in order to solve a crime, but I would imagine that bending the truth plays a big part in every manner of detective work.

The idea that everything Scotland Yard does during a live investigation is honest and transparent is ludicrous, the role of the policeman has evolved somewhat since Dixon of Dock Green. In this case they are not dealing with smash and grab robbers, and as the nature of the crime is sophisticated, so too must be the investigation. I think one of the reasons this case is so fascinating is because it has been like a 7 year game of Cat and Mouse, and its a cunning little mouse that has surrounded itself with top notch lawyers.

Yes. I'm more than aware that the police use any number of methods, many of which are undercover, in order to gather or confirm evidence. Neither Stagg nor Stephen Lawrence, however, provide direct parallels with the kind of master plan which so many posters assert SY are pursuing with reference to the McCanns and interestingly both relate not to brilliantly executed and successful episodes in the Met's history but totally bungled and corrupt investigations. Not so clever then. The point at issue was whether the Met are sending subliminal messages to K and G through pointedly worded press releases in an attempt to flush them out. This I seriously doubt.

The other questions your comments raise are that, given this is the high profile, complex and sophisticated case you describe why did they appoint someone like Redwood to lead it who seems completely out of his depth dealing with all the contextual issues relating to police relations, media etc. and why are we increasingly hearing from other members of the hierarchy and not from Redwood himself?

by ChippyM 22.05.14 15:20

utahagen wrote:....
Further -- and this is more to your point -- perhaps SY wants to keep the McCanns off-balance. A close friend of mine who is high up in the NYPD tells me often: when police publicly talk about how specific people are not suspects, that means nothing.

All indications from the McCanns' behavior over the past few months are that they are very nervous -- more nervous than they've ever been. It seems Tony Bennett is much more convinced it's a whitewash than the McCanns are!

Maybe I am too much of an optimist but I tend to agree. SY said the parents were not suspects - they may not have been at that time so it's not a lie, IMO it's about being pragmatic and not causing an unnecessary frenzy which would make their job difficult. The burglars and others have always been 'one line of enquiry'. Abduction became something that 'may not follow with all our thinking' - implying that at least some of their theories are not about abduction, which only really leaves the possibility that M was killed in the short time between checks.

by **PeterMac** 22.05.14 15:21

Just to refresh their memories, now that they are going to be entering a substantial phase of activity - as opposed to the previous substantial phase of total inactivity

The dismissal of Tannerman has been acclaimed as opening the “Window of Opportunity” for an abduction. It seems to be suggested that the previous 3 minutes has somehow been expanded to an hour and a half.
But does it ?

21:06 Gerry checks the children
21:12 / 15 He then stands outside
21:13 / 16 He returns to the Tapas
21:25 After starters MO and RJO go to back to their apartments via the car park entrance. They go first to 5D, where RJO’s daughter Evie is heard crying. RJO enters flat, whilst MO checks inside 5B, then returns to 5D
21:30 RJO remains in 5D as daugher has vomited. MO goes to check on 5A via the patio gate entrance, enters, sees twins breathing . . .

It takes 1 minute to walk from the Tapas to the bottom of the stair at 5A.
1 minute to go from there to the front door of 5A / 5D / 5B via the car park.
1 minute, at least for both to enter 5D to tend to the crying child
1 minute to go to 5B and check child
30 seconds to return to 5D
one minute to go to the bottom of the stairs 5A
30 second to enter 5A
30 seconds to stand in the apartment and “see the twins breathing”
15 seconds to exit
One minute to return to the Tapas

total a little under 8 minutes.
In fact they allow 10 minutes

But TWO men walked across the car park, and the shutters were obviously closed.
One man walked back across the car park - ditto
Same man entered apartment 5A - ditto - no slamming doors or whooshing curtains

At that point everything was OK
And it is now . . . 21:35

21:40 JT (again) goes to 5D. so she crosses car park at 2142 - shutters and window obviously OK, and no other activity, no cars moving around, no people lurking - nothing.
21:45 RJO returns to table, so he again crossed the car park at 21:43.
21:55 Kate raises alarm (according to the TWO handwritten timelines - this was then (criminally ?) altered on typed one to 2200)
So Kate must have left the table at 21:50 to get to 5A, enter, check, hear slamming doors, and whooshing curtains, hurtle around, checking all rooms cupboards etc and get back to the Tapas by 21:55

So the new window of opportunity is

around 5 minutes - as an absolute maximum

In this time the intruder has to
• Enter the apartment
• Sedate all three children - in the dark
• Select Madeleine as the victim - in the dark
• Open the shutters and window - if he used the front door to enter
• Pick Madeleine out of her bed - in the dark
• Exit the apartment, either through the opened window and shutters, or
through the front door,

BUT In addition the sedation used must now be almost instantaneous, so that by the time Kate reaches the twins within 4 or 5 minutes they are already deeply unconscious, and will not rouse until 10 hours later, without after effects. This substance must also be undetectable even by a trained anaesthetist (or two, in fact)

There is no substance which can do this.

Well done Redwood. Bit by bit the net is closing.

And now we apparently have to add
• Walk round the block and down the road so as to be seen by the Smiths
AND THEN retrace his steps and dig a grave in the middle of a car park, in solid limestone, bury her, and cover his tracks before the alarm is raised and the search begins.
Excellent work.

by Cristobell 22.05.14 15:27

If a whitewash were underway, wouldn't the McCanns have to know about it? Given the frequency of their TV appearances and interviews, they could at any moment drop themselves and SY in it.

From the look of their troubled faces, I don't think they know any more about what is going on in the investigation than we do. Imo, if they were kept fully updated they would not have had to ask for the dig to be postponed so they could celebrate Madeleine's birthday.

by HelenMeg 22.05.14 15:29

I have a strong feeling that we are underestimating Andy Redwood. Sometimes we have to just follow our instincts.
Based on facts it looks like a whitewash is happening on the UK side. But there are some poignant pointers in the opposite direction.
Today, if I had to place a bet it would be that what we are seeing from SY is part of a strategic plan with several months to endure before any
ending - a plan that will reveal a partial truth of what happened.

by HelenMeg 22.05.14 15:31

HelenMeg wrote:I have a strong feeling that we are underestimating Andy Redwood. Sometimes we have to just follow our instincts.
Based on facts it looks like a whitewash is happening on the UK side. But there are some poignant pointers in the opposite direction.
Today, if I had to place a bet it would be that what we are seeing from SY is part of a strategic plan with several months to endure before any
ending - a plan that will reveal a partial truth of what happened.

PS would the bookies take bets on whitewash or no whitewash?

How about we all go down the local and ask to place a bet ? That would raise publicity. Dont mean to be offensive

by Guest 22.05.14 15:34

I still don't see a whitewash.

It's too late. The files are on the internet, the PJ are investigating and the libel trial hasn't been resolved. Eventually the PJ will release all their files but, in the meantime, all it would take is one newspaper to go rogue, one policeman with integrity, one friend or family member to grow a conscience or any one of dozens of unforeseen and unplanned for events for the whole case to implode.

If this is the best attempt at a whitewash it's worse than pathetic and, like sticking a plaster on a broken leg, it's going to make no difference whatsoever.

So, no - no whitewash for me.

The big question for me comes from the following quote:

"I want to be able to go back to Kate and Gerry at some stage in the future and tell them we've got to the bottom of this, or second best is to go back to them and say we've turned over every stone and we can't get to an answer sometimes."

Will the police get enough evidence for a successful prosecution?

by russiandoll 22.05.14 15:37

gbwales wrote:

Mr Rowley did not give details about what the next phase would involve, but said officers were working through every credible line of inquiry as part of the "slog of a major investigation".

In fairness, they have pretty much exhausted all the incredible lines of inquiry...

This is not what detectives do , is it ? They do not work through every credible line of enquiry, they prioritise the most credible and work through them, putting others near the bottom of the pile or even discarding some, however credible ?They do not have unlimited resources.

by Guest 22.05.14 15:42

HelenMeg wrote:PS would the bookies take bets on whitewash or no whitewash?

How about we all go down the local and ask to place a bet ? That would raise publicity. Dont mean to be offensive

Just got back from the bookies.

Giving odd's of a 100/1 at the moment for it NOT to be a whitewash.

Stuck a monkey on. Will see it as a long term investment.

Truth will come out eventually. Might have to wait 20 odd years though.

by ChippyM 22.05.14 15:44

Cristobell wrote:If a whitewash were underway, wouldn't the McCanns have to know about it? Given the frequency of their TV appearances and interviews, they could at any moment drop themselves and SY in it.

From the look of their troubled faces, I don't think they know any more about what is going on in the investigation than we do. Imo, if they were kept fully updated they would not have had to ask for the dig to be postponed so they could celebrate Madeleine's birthday.

I believe the 'birthday' story was planted to try and make us think they are in the loop about the digs and have some kind of influence over SY. Just the mention of 'asking SY' is a subtle enough tactic to infer that they have some kind of influence and can ask SY to do what they like. There is of course absolutely no evidence they asked SY anything of the sort. So yes I agree, they don't know what's going to happen.

by Guest 22.05.14 15:46

Update from the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]:

Today, Thursday 22 May, Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley, head of Specialist Crime and Operations, met with media at New Scotland Yard to update them on Operation Grange, the London based investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

All UK based media outlets were represented at the meeting, as well as media organisations from Portugal, America, and others.

The meeting was held to outline the Metropolitan Police Service position in relation to the ongoing investigation given the speculation and numerous stories that have been running for the past few weeks. AC Rowley confirmed that in the coming weeks there would be specific police activity in Portugal led at all times by the Portuguese authorities (under the auspices of an International Letter of Request or ‘Rogatory letter’), with officers from the Metropolitan Police Service working alongside.

Following a meeting with the media Assistant Commissioner Rowley said:

"DCI Andy Redwood, the senior investigating officer, and his team will be in Portugal carrying out various lines of enquiry.

"“Thorough serious crime investigations work systematically through all credible possibilities and therefore it should not be assumed that this substantial upcoming phase of work in Portugal will immediately lead us to the answers that will explain what has happened.

“What you will see is normal police activity you would expect in any such major investigation.

“Similarly, this should not be seen as a sign that the investigation is nearing a conclusion. I fully expect that there will be much more work to do when this particular phase of activity comes to an end. It is helpful that any reporting of activity in Portugal is set in this context.

“We will be updating Mr and Mrs McCann throughout the activity as we have been throughout the investigation.

“We will not be giving information on when this activity is to occur.

"The very fact that we are in the position of moving towards substantial activity in Portugal shows that the relationship between the MPS and Portuguese colleagues is working."

AC Rowley issued a letter to media on 6 May 2014 stating that the advice he was receiving from Portugal was that their approach to media handling was different and they do not brief the media on current investigations.

They clearly stated that if the MPS provide any briefings or information on the work they are undertaking on our behalf, or if reporters cause any disruption to their work in Portugal activity will cease until that problem dissipates.

Assistant Commissioner Rowley reiterated that position today:

"We have made it clear to colleagues in Portugal that we will not be giving operational updates. I appreciate this will be frustrating to you (the media) especially given the help you have provided to us with public appeals so far which has added significant evidence into our files. However, if this was an investigation in London I would not be making public details of operational investigative activity that we were planning or how it might link in to the investigation.

"Of course complications are added when an investigation is taken abroad.

“My letter last month did map out where we stood in terms of how we could manage the media demand in this investigation. If media interfere with police work, that work will stop. I suspect that the boundaries around what that is will be apparent and I asked you to cooperate with the requests of the Portuguese authorities as the most important thing is to make this inquiry go as smoothly as possible.

“On a recent visit to Portugal DCI Redwood was surrounded by a large media group asking for comments from him.

“I appreciate that media group may not solely be UK agencies, and other media may state they are unaware of our repeated requests.

"DCI Redwood and his team will not be giving comment.

“Please allow them the room to manoeuvre and work on what is a live investigation into the disappearance of a young girl. If you get any information ahead of our actions do not publish anything that may give suspects advance notice.

The family have also made their wishes clear about allowing us and the Portuguese the room to carry on with our work and this was reinforced this publicly by Kate McCann when Andy and his team were last in Portugal.
“In my initial letter I asked editors to think twice - that advice stands. We all want the same outcome - to do everything possible to try to find answers for the McCann family.

“It is only fair on you I am upfront with you about what you can get and how the media might impact on the investigation.

“I am well aware that updates may help control this investigation and I am committed to doing this in a transparent way but mindful that nothing we do will damage the integrity of the investigation or the best possible chances of bringing it to a conclusion.”

by stillsloppingout 22.05.14 15:49

margaret wrote:SY can whitewash it all they want it doesn't change a thing. All evidence thus far points to the parents tapas group complicit in something.

Someone, somewhere will come along and blow this wide open one day and SY along with the McCanns will look as guilty as sin.

The McCanns have very little support and that won't change, social media will see to more being educated everyday.

Good luck with it all anyone who is covering something up!

And that is the crux of the matter Social Media . when this case started Twitter was not even about . This is the first case ever that has been scrutinised by persons via the web and social Media . The McCann's have used it for there advantage from the off set Gerry being a blogger he realised the power of the format .
Media Monitoring , the use of confusing red Herring's , staff paid IMO to post total Bollo***to throw the scent . and now SY with hundreds of new leads its dizzying but that is the plan . the only way to beat the power of the net is to confuse thus divide and conquer .

Portugal can post what they want , there conclusion will just be rubbished and brushed off . the seeds have been sewn , every report from SY slates the PJ , or is a lie . even today stating they are working together has been shown to be nonsense .

The McCann's are celebrities , as i posted earlier today Ian Watkins is only inside because there was a video of him showing his sick activities . his partner went to THREE different Police forces and was told " sorry don't want to know ,it could harm his career " .

The UK government / Police do not want to send six doctors and a Lawyer down, whatever they have done . that is the be all.

by utahagen 22.05.14 15:56

Cristobell wrote: "If a whitewash were underway, wouldn't the McCanns have to know about it?...From the look of their troubled faces, I don't think they know any more about what is going on in the investigation than we do."

Bingo! Posters who are convinced that this is a whitewash and that there's no chance of the truth about the McCanns' coming out in any way have not addressed why the McCanns seem markedly more insecure now than they did say, nine, months ago. A real whitewash should conclude: "A stranger abducted Madeleine from the hotel room and we can't find her. The end." If that is where SY is (deliberately) heading, some intermediary would be advising the McCanns about how to act in the meantime. And the sound advice in that case would be: "Keep a low profile. Don't disappear completely, because that itself would be suspiscious, but stay away from TV interviews -- especially in the US, to which the McCanns and the case have no ties -- and don't call attention to yourselves." Yet over the past couple of months, the McCanns: have appeared on TV in the US and England; have attended memorial services for Madeleine; participated in runs for other missing children; have had meetings with public officials; have released details about their bizarre birthday party for Madeleine, etc. In addition, the McCanns' demeanor in interviews is markedly different than it ever has been: Kate seems frightened, while Gerry is less cocksure. (I suspect also that it was Team McCann who was responsible for the silly "spotting" of that Madeleine McCann "lookealike" at a soccer match, which was absurd because the little girl didn't look much like Madeleine did at age almost four, never mind what she'd look like today at age eleven.)

I'll concede that I very much would like SY and Portugal eventually to say publicly that the McCanns are lying, even if neither party can proscute them for some legal or practical reason; and that that hope of mine may bias me towards arguing against a whitewash. However, I'll ask again, if there's a whitewash going on and the McCanns are soon to be completely in the clear, why do they now seem more frightened than they did in even the days after Madeleine disappeared?

by margaret 22.05.14 15:56

Poe wrote:
Will the police get enough evidence for a successful prosecution?

Sometimes that is what l think these last few weeks have all been about, there still isn't enough for a watertight prosecution, so SY saying 'we're going to do some digging in PDL soon', the shots in the fancy helicopter and again today's 'we're entering a major phase' is all to spook two people.

I think SY know unless there's evidence directly implicating K or G they will never squeal so they're giving them the opportunity to confess now? Otherwise if it went to trial it'd be a close run thing?

I bet their house and phones are bugged to the hilt, can't be easy if you've got something to hide?

by endgame 22.05.14 15:56

ChippyM wrote:
Cristobell wrote:If a whitewash were underway, wouldn't the McCanns have to know about it? Given the frequency of their TV appearances and interviews, they could at any moment drop themselves and SY in it.

From the look of their troubled faces, I don't think they know any more about what is going on in the investigation than we do. Imo, if they were kept fully updated they would not have had to ask for the dig to be postponed so they could celebrate Madeleine's birthday.

I believe the 'birthday' story was planted to try and make us think they are in the loop about the digs and have some kind of influence over SY. Just the mention of 'asking SY' is a subtle enough tactic to infer that they have some kind of influence and can ask SY to do what they like. There is of course absolutely no evidence they asked SY anything of the sort. So yes I agree, they don't know what's going to happen.

If the story was genuine, there must have been some imminent prospect of digging taking place over Madeleine's birthday which would cause the Mc's to ask for a temporary stay. In which case, why hasn't the activity now begun and why is Rowley suggesting that nothing is going to happen for weeks? I think this is another example of the deeply unpleasant manipulation in which the Mc's continuously indulge. There was no indication anywhere that digging was going to take place immediately so they weigh in and claim that it's because they asked for it and, look, our feelings are so central to all this that everyone jumps when we ask.

ETA This is an informative example of how the whole process works. No one in the media ever goes back to check or ask questions about any statements made by the Mc's or SY. If they did, the whole thing woulkd fall apart in five minutes.

by russiandoll 22.05.14 15:58

quote Tony Bennett : " Four centuries ago, when the Bible was respected, Englishmen were known the world over for their love of the truth and being truthful: 'An Englishman's word is his bond "

Excuse my being frank, but this is a lot of codswallop. Englishmen of 4 centuries ago were involved in the Atlantic slave trade, not a very moral activity.

The Engish were not behaving in a Christian manner then.

by ultimaThule 22.05.14 16:01

PeterMac wrote:Just to refresh their memories, now that they are going to be entering a substantial phase of activity - as opposed to the previous substantial phase of total inactivity
The dismissal of Tannerman has been acclaimed as opening the “Window of Opportunity” for an abduction. It seems to be suggested that the previous 3 minutes has somehow been expanded to an hour and a half.
But does it ?

21:06 Gerry checks the children
21:12 / 15 He then stands outside
21:13 / 16 He returns to the Tapas
21:25 After starters MO and RJO go to back to their apartments via the car park entrance. They go first to 5D, where RJO’s daughter Evie is heard crying. RJO enters flat, whilst MO checks inside 5B, then returns to 5D
21:30 RJO remains in 5D as daugher has vomited. MO goes to check on 5A via the patio gate entrance, enters, sees twins breathing . . .

It takes 1 minute to walk from the Tapas to the bottom of the stair at 5A.
1 minute to go from there to the front door of 5A / 5D / 5B via the car park.
1 minute, at least for both to enter 5D to tend to the crying child
1 minute to go to 5B and check child
30 seconds to return to 5D
one minute to go to the bottom of the stairs 5A
30 second to enter 5A
30 seconds to stand in the apartment and “see the twins breathing”
15 seconds to exit
One minute to return to the Tapas

total a little under 8 minutes.
In fact they allow 10 minutes

But TWO men walked across the car park, and the shutters were obviously closed.
One man walked back across the car park - ditto
Same man entered apartment 5A - ditto - no slamming doors or whooshing curtains

At that point everything was OK
And it is now . . . 21:35

21:40 JT (again) goes to 5D. so she crosses car park at 2142 - shutters and window obviously OK, and no other activity, no cars moving around, no people lurking - nothing.
21:45 RJO returns to table, so he again crossed the car park at 21:43.
21:55 Kate raises alarm (according to the TWO handwritten timelines - this was then (criminally ?) altered on typed one to 2200)
So Kate must have left the table at 21:50 to get to 5A, enter, check, hear slamming doors, and whooshing curtains, hurtle around, checking all rooms cupboards etc and get back to the Tapas by 21:55

So the new window of opportunity is

around 5 minutes - as an absolute maximum

In this time the intruder has to
• Enter the apartment
• Sedate all three children - in the dark
• Select Madeleine as the victim - in the dark
• Open the shutters and window - if he used the front door to enter
• Pick Madeleine out of her bed - in the dark
• Exit the apartment, either through the opened window and shutters, or
through the front door,

BUT In addition the sedation used must now be almost instantaneous, so that by the time Kate reaches the twins within 4 or 5 minutes they are already deeply unconscious, and will not rouse until 10 hours later, without after effects. This substance must also be undetectable even by a trained anaesthetist (or two, in fact)

There is no substance which can do this.

Well done Redwood. Bit by bit the net is closing.

And now we apparently have to add
• Walk round the block and down the road so as to be seen by the Smiths
AND THEN retrace his steps and dig a grave in the middle of a car park, in solid limestone, bury her, and cover his tracks before the alarm is raised and the search begins.
Excellent work.

The original remit of Operation Grange was to collate, record, and analyse all of the information held by the following:
The Portuguese Law Enforcement agencies
UK Law Enforcement agencies
Other private investigative agencies/staff and organisations
and that with regard to the latter, a formal request was made to the McCanns for access to the information which they had accrued through the various agencies and organisations they employed to search for their daughter.

Having fulfilled its original remit, on 4th July 2013 Operation Grange become an investigative review since when it would appear that it has concentrated its efforts on accounting for the activities of, and eliminating the involvement of, any parties unknown to the child and her parents who could be or may be put forward as being responsible for her disappearance..

Excellent work indeed!

by missmar1 22.05.14 16:09

Hello,

Been reading this forum for a long time and found it to be most informative when following this sad long drawn out case.

I am very concerned with the wording of todays announcement :

I believe calling the Mccanns by their christian names is totally out of order given the content and gravity of the announcement. At the very least,Imo, they should have been addressed as Mr ans Mrs. Otherwise we might think SY is answerable to these parents when in fact it is not.

It also makes me wonder why SY is on first name terms with Madeleines parents when in fact they have never been officially cleared of involvement in the disappearence of their daughter ?

Yes, this announcement bothers me - especially if ( After any announcement of a result by SY ) the portuguise are going to forge ahead with their own investigation, what happens if they come to a different conclusion that SY ?

by AndyB 22.05.14 16:14

utahagen wrote:However, I'll ask again, if there's a whitewash going on and the McCanns are soon to be completely in the clear, why do they now seem more frightened than they did in even the days after Madeleine disappeared?

I don't believe it is the McCanns complicity in their daughters death that is being whitewashed, it is something else. The McCann's are frightened because they fear they are about to be sacrificed to protect the something (or someone) else. I posted this rather far fetched example elsewhere to explain my line of thought

AndyB wrote: imagine for a moment that Madeleine was given to Aliens to be experimented on in exchange for the McCanns being given a ride in the spaceship. Unfortunately, Madeleine dies during the experiment and her body is returned to the McCanns who then dispose of it secretly. The powers that be have had nothing to do with the arrangement but they don't want it known that Aliens exist so they go along with the abduction myth and arrange for the McCanns to be protected. They allow them to set up a limited company, which then gives the McCanns a financial inducement to play along. Everyone's happy until the Portuguese publish the case files and people start questioning the McCann's version of events.

How do the powers that be keep the existence of the aliens a secret when the Sun demands a review of the case and blackmails the Prime minister with threats of bad headlines for a week? I suggest that they would effect to be investigating while secretly trying to find someone to pin it on. (Incidentally, I also think that they would be maintaining a back-up plan of framing the McCanns for murder should there be no plausible patsy).

I suspect that the back-up plan is now operational