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The Times article 19 May 2014 mentions 'her murder' - Page 3 Mm11

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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa 20.05.14 12:55

Tony Bennett wrote:

3. Redwood and co have repeatedly asserted that none of the McCanns or the rest of the Tapas 9 are under the remotest suspicion; they are not 'persons of interest' to Grange.

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'Police remarks 'hearten' McCanns'

The parents of missing Madeleine McCann have said they are "heartened" that the Portuguese police do not consider them suspects in the case.
Earlier, Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa publicly declared that Kate and Gerry McCann, and their friends who were on holiday with them, were not suspects.
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Post by bristow 20.05.14 12:56

admin wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
bobbin wrote:

Except that the police would have to admit that, and explain why, they were over-riding the dog findings and that the cadavour odour signalled and the blood, found to be Madeleine's and which had been damaged by the use of 'bleach' or some other such deliberate application, would have to have occurred within that time limit, and the abductor /murderer would have to have removed Madeleine's body having waited enough time in the apartment with the twins also in there, to allow the cadavour odour to establish itself.
bobbin, they have already done that - over three years ago.

1. Grange was to 'help the family'

2. Their remit was to investigate the abduction as if it happened in the UK

3. Redwood and co have repeatedly asserted that none of the McCanns or the rest of the Tapas 9 are under the remotest suspicion; they are not 'persons of interest' to Grange.

OK, so the McCann's aren't persons of interest but surely it still means DCI Redwood needs to explain why the abductor murdered Maddie and waited for the cadaver scent to develop, hid her in the wardrobe, cleaned the apartment, washed the curtains, leaving no forensic evidence etc, instead of taking her out alive....don't they?
This is my main thought.  If it does end in a whitewash they have just GOT to explain the dogs etc ….. or have they?

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Post by Rasputin 20.05.14 13:08

Dont forget the PJ people ! , there is another police force working on this besides SY .

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Post by Newintown 20.05.14 13:15

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:

3. Redwood and co have repeatedly asserted that none of the McCanns or the rest of the Tapas 9 are under the remotest suspicion; they are not 'persons of interest' to Grange.

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'Police remarks 'hearten' McCanns'

The parents of missing Madeleine McCann have said they are "heartened" that the Portuguese police do not consider them suspects in the case.
Earlier, Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa publicly declared that Kate and Gerry McCann, and their friends who were on holiday with them, were not suspects.

WLBTS, that was an article from August 2007. 

GA mentioned some time ago that "things didn't look good for the McCanns".   No doubt "things" have moved on from August 2007.

Wasn't it mentioned by someone in the PJ or their hierarchy that the McCanns can't be seen as totally innocent as they failed to co-operate with the police and therefore failed to influence the PJ that they were not involved.  I can't remember the exact words but they've been printed on this forum many times.

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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa 20.05.14 13:20

Newintown wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:

3. Redwood and co have repeatedly asserted that none of the McCanns or the rest of the Tapas 9 are under the remotest suspicion; they are not 'persons of interest' to Grange.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

'Police remarks 'hearten' McCanns'

The parents of missing Madeleine McCann have said they are "heartened" that the Portuguese police do not consider them suspects in the case.
Earlier, Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa publicly declared that Kate and Gerry McCann, and their friends who were on holiday with them, were not suspects.

WLBTS, that was an article from August 2007. 

GA mentioned some time ago that "things didn't look good for the McCanns".   No doubt "things" have moved on from August 2007.

Wasn't it mentioned by someone in the PJ or their hierarchy that the McCanns can't be seen as totally innocent as they failed to co-operate with the police and therefore failed to influence the PJ that they were not involved.  I can't remember the exact words but they've been printed on this forum many times.

I know.  My post was to point out that police forces may well say that people are not suspects, when the reverse is actually true.  When Tony points out that Redwood has declared the McCanns not suspects, we should remember that the PJ also declared the McCanns not suspects at a time when they had already carried out the cadaver dog searches.
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Post by Newintown 20.05.14 13:23

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Newintown wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:

3. Redwood and co have repeatedly asserted that none of the McCanns or the rest of the Tapas 9 are under the remotest suspicion; they are not 'persons of interest' to Grange.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

'Police remarks 'hearten' McCanns'

The parents of missing Madeleine McCann have said they are "heartened" that the Portuguese police do not consider them suspects in the case.
Earlier, Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa publicly declared that Kate and Gerry McCann, and their friends who were on holiday with them, were not suspects.

WLBTS, that was an article from August 2007. 

GA mentioned some time ago that "things didn't look good for the McCanns".   No doubt "things" have moved on from August 2007.

Wasn't it mentioned by someone in the PJ or their hierarchy that the McCanns can't be seen as totally innocent as they failed to co-operate with the police and therefore failed to influence the PJ that they were not involved.  I can't remember the exact words but they've been printed on this forum many times.

I know.  My post was to point out that police forces may well say that people are not suspects, when the reverse is actually true.  When Tony points out that Redwood has declared the McCanns not suspects, we should remember that the PJ also declared the McCanns not suspects at a time when they had already carried out the cadaver dog searches.

Oh, okey dokey.  I obviously got the wrong end of your post.   smilie 

Phew, there was me thinking that you were believing in an article from 2007.  Many apologies.   big grin

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Post by bobbin 20.05.14 13:26

bristow wrote:
admin wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
bobbin wrote:

Except that the police would have to admit that, and explain why, they were over-riding the dog findings and that the cadavour odour signalled and the blood, found to be Madeleine's and which had been damaged by the use of 'bleach' or some other such deliberate application, would have to have occurred within that time limit, and the abductor /murderer would have to have removed Madeleine's body having waited enough time in the apartment with the twins also in there, to allow the cadavour odour to establish itself.
bobbin, they have already done that - over three years ago.

1. Grange was to 'help the family'

2. Their remit was to investigate the abduction as if it happened in the UK

3. Redwood and co have repeatedly asserted that none of the McCanns or the rest of the Tapas 9 are under the remotest suspicion; they are not 'persons of interest' to Grange.

OK, so the McCann's aren't persons of interest but surely it still means DCI Redwood needs to explain why the abductor murdered Maddie and waited for the cadaver scent to develop, hid her in the wardrobe, cleaned the apartment, washed the curtains, leaving no forensic evidence etc, instead of taking her out alive....don't they?
This is my main thought.  If it does end in a whitewash they have just GOT to explain the dogs etc ….. or have they?

Also we should not forget that it was a British police force (Leics ?) that called for the dogs in the first place to check the McCs' apartment, clothes, car etc. and this was a time when the two forces were co-operating to get the searches done.
True, the John Lowe changes of FFS reporting were an unexplained about face, but the damage was already done and the McCs were made arguidos and have not been cleared just not charged.
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Post by tasprin 20.05.14 13:49

Sean O’Neill has been The Times Crime Editor since 2007 and has written several articles on the case. He’s a Twitter buddy of  fellow countryman Jim Gamble and as such he’s well aware how controversial the subject is. I can’t see him mistakenly using the word “murder”.

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Regarding Robert Murat: Maybe he was got at by someone. IIRC he was visited by Brian Kennedy and offered a job - very odd (surprised he didn't report him to the police). He once said (2008) there was a lot more to come out but nothing ever did. His mother was writing a book to put the record straight but that didn't materialise either.
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Post by PeterMac 20.05.14 13:57

aquila wrote:
admin wrote:
It seems a little odd that far less has been spent on the Operation Yewtree case, which has involved many perpetrators and many victims, than there has been spent on Maddie's 'disappearance'.
Operation Yewtree also has less staff. Remarkable.

Also no need for helicopters and sardines on the beach. Just boring old statements and some idea about finding the facts.
I suppose Yewtree might have got as far as Scarborough, but that's about it in terms of jollies.
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Post by Newintown 20.05.14 14:01

PeterMac wrote:
aquila wrote:
admin wrote:
It seems a little odd that far less has been spent on the Operation Yewtree case, which has involved many perpetrators and many victims, than there has been spent on Maddie's 'disappearance'.
Operation Yewtree also has less staff. Remarkable.

Also no need for helicopters and sardines on the beach.  Just boring old statements and some idea about finding the facts.
I suppose Yewtree might have got as far as Scarborough, but that's about it in terms of jollies.

Yewtree didn't involve a multi-million £ fraud though, which may make a difference.  Look at all the people who have benefitted from the "fund"; a spider's web which stretches far and wide.

Yewtree may be limited to a list of names from the hotel's records, but the "fund" is another thing. IMO.

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Post by Guest 20.05.14 14:05

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Maybe someone with twitter would like to ask Sean O'Neill why he is calling the disappearance of Madeleine mccann a murder.
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Post by Mirage 20.05.14 14:11

There are three possible scenarios so far identified by previous posters, viz:

1.There is a significant development and the term "murder" may be preparatory to news of McCann involvement.
2.There is a significant development and the term "murder" may be preparatory to an exit strategy.
3.The use of the term "murder" is a result of sloppy journalism.


Looking at the activity/or lack of activity over recent days for clues/mood:

Cessation of internecine fights by both police forces in the press.
The announcement of specified digging sites in PdL.
The announcement of use of better sniffer dogs.
The helicopter flight.
The return of SY officers.
The plea by the Mcs for speeding the process.
The plea by the Mcs for slowing the process (birthday)
The ad hoc gathering at the Rothley war memorial for the seventh anniversary.
The scruffy appearance of KH.
The Fiona Bruce interview.
The video appeal and interview of 2nd May by KH, on the Mirror website (not widely broadcast AFAIK) to promote the MP alert system.
The sighting of a MBM un-look-alike in the footie match and subsequent statement by the Mcs that people are still looking for Madeleine.
The Clapham 'Miles for MP 10k run' with what passes for smiles while on the hoof.
The appearance of both Oldfields alongside the Mcs. (Remember MO doesn't like running)
The participation of all 3 children of the above in the 3k race accompanied by fathers.
The non appearance of any other known T7 runners , notably FP and JT.
The Irish radio live phone-in on the McCs
The Three Counties local BBC radio broadcast of the Sarah interview complaining about the Mcs followed by live phone-in

Please feel free to add to the list.

Just one small point, there was a distinct mark under KH's right eye on the day of the 10k.

ETA. I don't know what to make of it all. Thinking out loud, I suppose.
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Post by Tony Bennett 20.05.14 14:19

tasprin wrote:
Regarding Robert Murat: IIRC he was visited by Brian Kennedy and offered a job - very odd (surprised he didn't report him to the police). He once said (2008) there was a lot more to come out but nothing ever did. His mother was writing a book to put the record straight but that didn't materialise either.
The meeting at which Brian Kennedy claims he offered Murat a job - helping to find Madeleine...

1. Took place on 13 November 2007

2. At the house of Robert Murat's aunt and uncle Sally & Ralph Eveleigh

3. Who ran an 'adluts only' guesthouse - children aged under 14 were banned

4. At this meeting Robert Murat and his mother were present, as was Murat's lawyer

5. With Kennedy was his lawyer and the McCanns' lawyer, top - Rochdale-based - Freemason, Edward Smethurst

6. The meeting was held in secret, but leaked out later

7. The meeting was in effect a meeting of the lawyers for ALL THREE SUSPECTS in the case.

8. Against that background, Kennedy's claim that he flew 2,000 miles to offer Murat a job, shall we say, lacks credibility.

At the Cambridge Students Union in March 2009, Robert Murat spoke to a tumultuous reception at a debate on the morals of the tabloid press. Portraying himself as the 'victim' in all this - but obviously not mentioning his 17 lies about a missing girl when first questioned by the PJ on 15 May 2007 - he said that 'this will be the first and last time I speak about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann'.

In fact, he said nothing at all about it - except how important it was to continue the search for her by all possible means.    

In the weeks following this historic meeting between Kennedy and Murat, all the following happened:

* Jane Tanner said she was no longer sure the person she'd seen on 3 May was Murat, and later even tried to claim that she'd ever positively ID'd him 

* Fiona Payne said she was no longer sure she'd seen Murat hanging around the Ocean Club on the evening of 3 May, and might have been wrong

* Rachael Oldfield said she was no longer sure she'd seen Murat hanging around the Ocean Club on the evening of 3 May, and might have been wrong

* Russell O'Brien said he was no longer sure she'd seen Murat hanging around the Ocean Club on the evening of 3 May, and might have been wrong
 

Oh, and both the McCanns and Murat received healthy six-figure sums of agreed libel damages

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Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by ChippyM 20.05.14 14:28

I think it may be significant that this story is 'pay per view'. Maybe journalists are just itching to print the word 'murder' in relation to this case based on what sources have told them. They might be testing the waters by putting it behind a paywall.

  Of course the alternative view is that with recent news of digging, someone has presumed this case is a murder.
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Post by russiandoll 20.05.14 14:44

Bellisa wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Maybe someone with twitter would like to ask Sean O'Neill  why he is calling the disappearance of Madeleine mccann a murder.

someone has according to his timeline....watch this space for an answer.

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Post by Guest 20.05.14 14:56

tasprin wrote:

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I find Gamble's rantings here worrying in the extreme. This man is supposed to be a professional and a leader in his field. This kind of childishness is HIGHLY inappropriate.
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Post by Newintown 20.05.14 15:05

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
tasprin wrote:

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I find Gamble's rantings here worrying in the extreme. This man is supposed to be a professional and a leader in his field. This kind of childishness is HIGHLY inappropriate.

Yes, it does put his professionalism into serious doubt, especially when he is so adamant that the McCanns are innocent of any wrong doing in Madeleine's disappearance and won't have a word said against them.  In fact it is quite spooky and frightening, it almost seems that he has some inside information on them and has a close connection with them that he needs to protect them (and himself) at all costs.

ETA: not forgetting the CATS file:

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Post by Guest 20.05.14 15:14

Thanks russiandoll will keep an eye on the page so.
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Post by Guest 20.05.14 15:20

I see that some of the paid shills are coming out the woodwork, tweeting @thetimes to get them to retract the 'murder' statement... No proof of murder... blah, blah.

Obviously ruffled the Mccanns feathers big time then.

Which is good to see.
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Post by Guest 20.05.14 15:33

endgame wrote:Whilst not wishing to dampen the anticipation that this reference has created, I'm afraid that you always have to allow for such a reference being the result of sloppy journalism from someone who has no real knowledge of what they are writing about. It is rarely the case that journalists spend days poring over the precise inferences of words as we know from the grotesque misrepresentations that appear daily on this case. The idea that this has been deliberately planted as part of some master plan of revelation is as yet still on shaky ground.


I agree with your view, after all the report is not about the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, it's about resources taken up by old cases of child abuse (child abuse a query in itself?).  The standard of journalism may have deteriorate over the years but even now I don't think they can go around bandying words like 'murder' without foundation and as far as we know there is no foundation at present.

My very very limited experience of journalism dates back to around the time The Bedrock Daily Times (formerly known as The Daily Slab) first experimented with the new fangled Berlina format to see how many more words could be chiseled out on one slab.  These days anything is possible but isn't the usual way for the police to brief the media by issuing a global press release as and when necessary, not to drop hints of forthcoming possibilities to a favoured few?
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Post by Mirage 20.05.14 15:36

Andrew77R wrote:I see that some of the paid shills are coming out the woodwork, tweeting @timesonline to get them to retract the 'murder' statement... No proof of murder... blah, blah.

Obviously ruffled the Mccanns feathers big time then.

Which is good to see.

It certainly is, Andrew77R.
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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa 20.05.14 15:37

Does anybody know if the Times has changed it yet?
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Post by Guest 20.05.14 15:40

ChippyM wrote:I think it may be significant that this story is 'pay per view'. Maybe journalists are just itching to print the word 'murder' in relation to this case based on what sources have told them. They might be testing the waters by putting it behind a paywall.

  Of course the alternative view is that with recent news of digging, someone has presumed this case is a murder.


I don't think so chippyM.  You subscribe to read the online version of the Times, it's as simple as that.  Instant viewing of the front page so to speak is only a taster probably to tempt you into subscribing, something the Sun is less forthcoming with but then who is likely to be tempted in that direction anyway? 

As for presuming a murder in this case, I think a number of on-lookers came to that view a long time ago.
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Post by Guest 20.05.14 15:50

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:Does anybody know if the Times has changed it yet?


No the Times haven't changed it.
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Post by Cristobell 20.05.14 15:51

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
tasprin wrote:

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I find Gamble's rantings here worrying in the extreme. This man is supposed to be a professional and a leader in his field. This kind of childishness is HIGHLY inappropriate.
Not sure he is right when he says 'small but vociferous' group that criticise him.  He seems to have quite a few enemies from all sorts of backgrounds, the McCann case being the latest in a very controversial career. 

Jim Gamble I think is caught in a 1960's policeman mode, a bit of Dixon of Dock Green, with that voice of authority that put the fear of God into the unenlightened working classes.   He commands, or should that be, demands, respect.  People look up to him, because he would expect no less.  When he speaks, people listen, and he has learned to speak very well.  I would imagine even politicians wilt in his presence, though fair dues to Theresa May, for whom I have new found respect.  

If the McCanns are arrested, questions will have to be asked of all those high flying experts who have stood so steadfastly behind the abduction story in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.  I do not see any way in which they can say they were taken in and still retain credibility.
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Post by Guest 20.05.14 15:52

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
tasprin wrote:

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I find Gamble's rantings here worrying in the extreme. This man is supposed to be a professional and a leader in his field. This kind of childishness is HIGHLY inappropriate.

In my opinion Gamble's rantings are worrying full-stop!
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Post by noddy100 20.05.14 15:55

Gollum wrote:
ChippyM wrote:I think it may be significant that this story is 'pay per view'. Maybe journalists are just itching to print the word 'murder' in relation to this case based on what sources have told them. They might be testing the waters by putting it behind a paywall.

  Of course the alternative view is that with recent news of digging, someone has presumed this case is a murder.


I don't think so chippyM.  You subscribe to read the online version of the Times, it's as simple as that.  Instant viewing of the front page so to speak is only a taster probably to tempt you into subscribing, something the Sun is less forthcoming with but then who is likely to be tempted in that direction anyway? 

As for presuming a murder in this case, I think a number of on-lookers came to that view a long time ago.
This article is also about historical 'sex cases' not missing children
Gaspar?
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Post by AndyB 20.05.14 16:05

noddy100 wrote:This article is also about historical 'sex cases' not missing children
Gaspar?
Its about historical cases in general not specifically historic child sex abuse and I think we need to be careful not to read too much into the two other examples quoted. Having said that, I do find it intriguing that the Madeleine "murder" is listed between Pallial and Yewtree, both of which are historic child abuse investigations
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Post by Ayniia 20.05.14 16:19

admin wrote:
OK, so the McCann's aren't persons of interest but surely it still means DCI Redwood needs to explain why the abductor murdered Maddie and waited for the cadaver scent to develop, hid her in the wardrobe, cleaned the apartment, washed the curtains, leaving no forensic evidence etc, instead of taking her out alive....don't they?
And,
Left cuddlecat near Madeleine's body which was not in the bed but he then proceeded to return cuddlecat to the bed,
Meanwhile he also somehow managed to leave cadaver smell on Kate's clothes,
And then he also returned later having access to the scenic and leaving the same smell there + fluid traces.

I can't imagine a way that SY will say case closed, abductor did it, and discount all the evidence available.
Also even if we forget the dogs, the smell and all the physical evidence... there's always the statements, that night timeline... oh wait and the PJ, GA and of course, us : )
IMHO no way someone wrote "murder " by chance /mistake...

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Post by utahagen 20.05.14 16:19

Mirage posted: "Looking at the activity/or lack of activity over recent days for clues/mood..."
 
 
Great list, Mirage.
 
Here's why I am optimistic that the noose is tightening around the McCanns: if they were not involved in Madeleine's disappearance, or if they were involved but believe the fix is in to protect them, why have they seemed more frightened during the past two months than they did during the weeks after Madeleine disappeared? In interviews, they are less combative, less sure of themselves, more serious, and more on edge than I've ever seen them be. What tipped me off early on that the McCanns were lying is that they neever seemed FRIGHTENED during the days and weeks after Madeleine disappeared. They sometimes seemed serious and sad, but to me they never appeared frightened. So, why do they seem frightened now? Their defenders would assert that the McCanns are now reasonably afraid Madeleine will be found dead. But why would they think that now, after seven years of insisting she's alive? And even if they just now are grappling with the possibility/likelihood Madeleine is dead, why would they seem frightened instead of simply filled with dread? Given the many things you noted, including their wacky post about wanting the media to stop interfering, it's hard to believe these two are confident they either did nothing wrong or have got away with doing something wrong. They strike me as people who know that time is running out on them.
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