Re: CRIMEWATCH Update on MadeleineMcCann case tonight 19th March

by annysmithgold 21.03.14 9:50

russiandoll wrote:with thanks to [email=Johanna@unterdenteppichgekehrt]Johanna@unterdenteppichgekehrt[/email] blog

Britain's Finest

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Scotland Yard speaks of new data that has been collected by the English investigation. But the Judiciary Police has another version.

The thesis that points towards a suspect of alleged sexual attacks against British children in the Algarve is nothing but the investigation line that was defined by the PJ team in Oporto, which reviewed the entire process.

A source at the Judiciary Police asserts that this was the line that was the basis for the reopening of the inquiry, in October last year.

This means that what has just been announced in England is part of the Portuguese process, which is under judicial secrecy. A secret that had been well kept until now and that was breached, which may weaken the trust between both police forces.

This information was given by the PJ itself to the British police and to the McCann couple, during a meeting at the Judiciary Police’s National Directory, in Lisbon.

There is an agreement between both police forces: they regularly meet in Portugal. They exchange information about the development of the investigations into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

The PJ has always kept silent about what happens during these meetings that take place behind closed doors. A stance that is being kept: Officially, the National Directory does not comment Scotland Yard’s statement.

Thank you Astro for the translation

So it could be TM leaking all this info, or have I not understood this properly

by annysmithgold 21.03.14 9:53

Sorry RD, still not a proficient poster, will try and separate quotes better.

by Guest 21.03.14 10:02

Mirage...

by tiny 21.03.14 10:02

annysmithgold wrote:
russiandoll wrote:with thanks to [email=Johanna@unterdenteppichgekehrt]Johanna@unterdenteppichgekehrt[/email] blog

Britain's Finest

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Scotland Yard speaks of new data that has been collected by the English investigation. But the Judiciary Police has another version.

The thesis that points towards a suspect of alleged sexual attacks against British children in the Algarve is nothing but the investigation line that was defined by the PJ team in Oporto, which reviewed the entire process.

A source at the Judiciary Police asserts that this was the line that was the basis for the reopening of the inquiry, in October last year.

This means that what has just been announced in England is part of the Portuguese process, which is under judicial secrecy. A secret that had been well kept until now and that was breached, which may weaken the trust between both police forces.

There is an agreement between both police forces: they regularly meet in Portugal. They exchange information about the development of the investigations into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

The PJ has always kept silent about what happens during these meetings that take place behind closed doors. A stance that is being kept: Officially, the National Directory does not comment Scotland Yard’s statement.
This information was given by the PJ itself to the British police and to the McCann couple, during a meeting at the Judiciary Police’s National Directory, in Lisbon.

Thank you Astro for the translation

So it could be TM leaking all this info, or have I not understood this properly

whats this about???? why are they keeping the mccanns up to date

by russiandoll 21.03.14 10:07

re " whats this about???? why are they keeping the mccanns up to date? "

My guess is that both forces have agreed that sadly their daughter is almost certainly deceased and this was their update late last year.

Since October, have the Met shown the age progressed picture afaik in any statements/appeals for info?

by tiny 21.03.14 10:12

russiandoll wrote:re " whats this about???? why are they keeping the mccanns up to date? "

My guess is that both forces have agreed that sadly their daughter is almost certainly deceased and this was their update late last year.

Since October, have the Met shown the age progressed picture afaik in any statements/appeals for info?

thanks for the explanation RD,for a moment I thought the mccanns were still running the show.

by Guest 21.03.14 10:14

russiandoll wrote:My guess is that both forces have agreed that sadly their daughter is almost certainly deceased and this was their update late last year.

Since October, have the Met shown the age progressed picture afaik in any statements/appeals for info?

That is a very good point, russiandoll. And the obvious lack of the McCanns in the CW studio this time would appear to be a strong indicator that the emphasis has certainly shifted.

by HelenMeg 21.03.14 10:27

Mirage wrote:
Clay Regazzoni wrote:
dantezebu wrote:

He is a certainly a mysterious character.
Does anyone know what DP did before medical school?
He qualified in 1994, which by my calculations made him 28 at the time ( he was 41 in 2007). About 4-5 years later than if he had gone directly after school.

I know it might appear from the text that he was referring to Payne here, but I don't think he was the "mysterious character". We know who he is, for a start! I think Payne's alleged predelictions (which I'm not convinced of myself, BTW) was more meant to be indicative of the kind of circles they moved in.

Nipple circles?

by russiandoll 21.03.14 10:32

Not an explanation, but a guess, because of AR's words in the Guardian re possibility of a deceased Maddie being removed from 5a.

He surely would not have uttered those words at a press conference without having told the McCanns of his doubts re Maddie being alive?

Hit them with that kind of bombshell?

I have not heard any reference to an alive Maddie from Redwood for a long time.

I have not in a long time heard the word abduction from him and on CW it was not used by any of the presenters iirc.[ only ref being to one reading of the case having hallmarks of a pre planned abduction]

I do not recall any of the October CW shows showing an age- progressed girl.

btw, I dislike the idea of police playing games, but many months ago I posted about chess. Will try to find the post. Without much doubt SY appear to be in game-playing mode, certainly imo deliberately muddying the waters.

Here are some notes re chess psychology.

It is about short-term and long-term strategies and how to manipulate your opponent.

It is very important to learn to weigh up objectively (or assess intuitively) the totality of the competitive and psychological factors. - Mark Dvoretsky

Emotional instability can be one of the factors giving rise to a failure by chess players in important duels. Under the influence of surging emotions (and not necessarily negative ones) we sometimes lose concentration and stop objectively evaluating the events that are taking place on the board. - Mark Dvoretsky

You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one. - Mikhail Tal

I believe most definitely that one must not only grapple with the problems on the board, one must also make every effort to combat the thoughts and will of the opponent. - Mikhail Tal

Naturally, the psychological susceptibility of a match participant is significantly higher than a participant in a tournament, since each game substantially changes the over-all position. - Mikhail Tal

… on the right occasion a bold choice of opening can unnerve even the most steely opponent. - Neil McDonald

If your opponent offers you a draw, try to work out why he thinks he's worse off. - Nigel Short

There is no doubt that Bronstein's shrewd understanding of chess psychology was crucial to his success. Without it, his impetuous style and technical flaws might have relegated him to a minor career. - Pal Benko

Sometimes players need to gain time on the clock by repeating the position, but most often its purpose is to wear down the opponent psychologically. - Pal Benko

I had a slightly inferior endgame that probably should have been drawn, but Kortchnoi kept torturing me with little threats until finally, exhausted and exasperated, I made a losing mistake. - Pal Benko

There is nothing wrong with trying to exploit the natural human tendency to become impatient when forced to play a boring position. - Pal Benko

by Mirage 21.03.14 10:39

Pondering timings here. If I've got this right, the following:

1 Goncalo Amaral gives interview.
2 The CW update unexpectedly scheduled in.
3 Reports of around 250 calls and texts come in.
4 Portugal counters MET criticisms about the sexual predator.
5 A R's Guardian article altered
6 Cameron offers help

I'm interested in Bishop Brennan's idea of floating exit strategies. This ties in. Notice we are a world away from three burglars ringing each other, mobile phone records, arrests imminent and (most recently) Hogan-we-have-names-Howe.

Then we had the ILORs not acted on/ lost in the Portuguese system. Oh dear, the Portuguese are up to their old games again and the MET ( they of the smart suit / photo shoot) are being held up in their bid to interview the 3 burglars and crack the case wide open. Fault of the Portuguese, naturally.

Ol Cameron probably got on the blower to Andy (who has broken out in uncharacteristic smiling on air - a worrying sign ol' Cameron clocked) Anyway, he got on the blower and Andy gave the low-down on the ~~straw poll~~ phone responses. And the news was not what the PM had hoped to hear. Let us just say, sotto voce to spare old Andy's blushes, that the tenor of the messages left were a little too realistic for tender ears. Andy may even have put it in standard MET terms to the PM ' I said they wouldn't wear it'.

So old Cameron did what he does best. He gave ~~the matter due thought and consideration~~ a knee-jerk reaction.

The rest is history - an unedifying sight of several farts trying to get out of the same colander.

No wonder CM made a guest appearance on the BBC to throw stardust high into the air - just like you get at all the best pantomimes while the characters rush around the stage and assume a different stance.

by Doug D 21.03.14 10:41

I wrote (9.26):

So if even the possibility that ‘Madeleine might not have left the apartment alive’ is now being entertained by Redwood, has he not effectively accepted that this does completely for all the T9 checking stories, by pushing a death timeline back to before 8.30 (10.00 less 90 minutes needed for cadaver odour to develop) which is of course about the time the Mc’s left 5a?

Noddy100 (9.29):

I don't think in their eyes it does move the timeline back as they aren't using the cadaver odour as a fact
I think they are just saying he killed her and carried her away as a possibility as there is no reference to the dogs or DNA etc
If there was then we would be home and dry

But is Redwood not backing himself further & further into the corner, even if he has not realized it himself yet?
The evidence from the dogs is out there, even if he he chooses not to acknowledge or use it at this time.
The possible death of M. in the apartment has now been acknowledged, which has to be before the 10.00 ‘abduction’ call, so it has surely now got to be only a matter of time before the next chapter, when the 90 minute cadaver lead-time comes into play, blowing all of the TM stories out of the water.

by Woofer 21.03.14 10:42

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Doesn`t look pot bellied to me.

by CynicAl 21.03.14 10:46

Woofer wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Doesn`t look pot bellied to me.

doesn't look tanned either.

by Guest 21.03.14 10:47

Woofer wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Doesn`t look pot bellied to me.

To be fair, he is tanned though. You know how tanned the ace of spades is? That's how tanned he is.

by Liz Eagles 21.03.14 10:47

@Mirage. Your posts make my day - everyday.

@PeterMac. You alluded to the fact that surely Scotland Yard/Redwood might fear whistleblowers. I can't find the post but I'd like to give my tuppenceworth on it. Whistleblowing really does depend on what you've had to sign in terms of confidentiality doesn't it?

by whatliesbehindthesofa 21.03.14 10:48

Doug D wrote:I wrote (9.26):

So if even the possibility that ‘Madeleine might not have left the apartment alive’ is now being entertained by Redwood, has he not effectively accepted that this does completely for all the T9 checking stories, by pushing a death timeline back to before 8.30 (10.00 less 90 minutes needed for cadaver odour to develop) which is of course about the time the Mc’s left 5a?

Noddy100 (9.29):

I don't think in their eyes it does move the timeline back as they aren't using the cadaver odour as a fact
I think they are just saying he killed her and carried her away as a possibility as there is no reference to the dogs or DNA etc
If there was then we would be home and dry

But is Redwood not backing himself further & further into the corner, even if he has not realized it himself yet?
The evidence from the dogs is out there, even if he he chooses not to acknowledge or use it at this time.
The possible death of M. in the apartment has now been acknowledged, which has to be before the 10.00 ‘abduction’ call, so it has surely now got to be only a matter of time before the next chapter, when the 90 minute cadaver lead-time comes into play, blowing all of the TM stories out of the water.

I (and others) have posted about this 90 minute lead-time before. It would be rather unwise to use that as an absolute limit. What about 89 minutes? 88? 87? If cadaverine is undetectable at 89 minutes, how come it is detectable at 90 minutes?

This 90 minute thing is being used as absolute fact, when it is not absolute fact :) Black-and-white = bad.

by Mirage 21.03.14 10:50

aquila wrote:@Mirage. Your posts make my day - everyday.

@PeterMac. You alluded to the fact that surely Scotland Yard/Redwood might fear whistleblowers. I can't find the post but I'd like to give my tuppenceworth on it. Whistleblowing really does depend on what you've had to sign in terms of confidentiality doesn't it?

Aw thanks aquila. airkiss

by Guest 21.03.14 10:55

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
Woofer wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Doesn`t look pot bellied to me.

To be fair, he is tanned though. You know how tanned the ace of spades is? That's how tanned he is.

This man was VERY definitely not 'tanned'. He was black. Tanned people are fairer skinned people who have been tanned by the sun or sunbeds or skin colourants. Black people do not describe themselves as tanned any more than white people would describe themselves as pink.

by pennylane 21.03.14 10:58

MILLIE wrote:
This man was VERY definitely not 'tanned'. He was black. Tanned people are fairer skinned people who have been tanned by the sun or sunbeds or skin colourants. Black people do not describe themselves as tanned any more than white people would describe themselves as pink.

DCI Redwood has been telling the public black is white all along, so why stop now.

by whatliesbehindthesofa 21.03.14 11:05

Polite request to please remove large images from quotes when posting replies :)

by russiandoll 21.03.14 11:08

with thanks to [email=Johanna@unterdenteppichgekehrt]Johanna@unterdenteppichgekehrt[/email]

Johanna ‏@UnterdenTeppich [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Monteiro has been dead for 4 years. Are you leaving no gravestone unturned? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by the way, the children described his way of speaking, but nothing that was said.. weird.

Please God the explanation for the lack of facial description will not be because it was dark and the suspect was black.

They would not dare after Stephen Lawrence would they?

A dead black patsy?

by Doug D 21.03.14 11:13

WLBTS

But even if you could reduce it to 45 minutes it will still invalidate GM's check, or did he not only fail to see him hiding behind the door, but also failed to smell him (because he had used his aftershave)?
If pot-bellied man had been hiding behind the door when GM went into the room, are we seriously supposed to believe that the door would have opened wide enough for him to enter the room, (which he must have done to see M. lying 'in exactly the same position as we'd left her' and MO effectively confirmed this must have happened, as he couldn't see M. from outside the room) without noticing that the door didn't open properly?
How many more times can they change or re-interpret their stories to try and fit the facts?

by Mirage 21.03.14 11:14

Word has it there's to be a brand new CW appeal by Andy tonight:

My new man's a dustman,
He wears a dustman's hat,
He wears cor blimey trousers,
Has he been in your flat?

If so, please call porkie-pie stoppers on this Portuguese number.

by russiandoll 21.03.14 11:19

mirage, behave !

seriously, Prof David Wilson who is usually silent on Maddie [ apart from last year's conclusion re McCann innocence, unlike the mother who hid her daughter and cried abduction, because of the ways both women held their child's cuddly toy ]
is tweeting re the media reports and the conflict between the UK and Portuguese police.

by CynicAl 21.03.14 11:26

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
Woofer wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Doesn`t look pot bellied to me.

To be fair, he is tanned though. You know how tanned the ace of spades is? That's how tanned he is.

Well, if SY wants to be known as racist and ignorant then they said the right thing. Otherwise attribution of a black man's blackness to the tanning effects of the sun is as problematic as laying the blame for albino complexion at the feet of insufficient sunbathing. Glib and crass and not what our millions should be buying us. Was Stephen Lawrence a tanned male, I wonder?

by HelenMeg 21.03.14 11:28

Mirage wrote:Word has it there's to be a brand new CW appeal by Andy tonight:

My new man's a dustman,
He wears a dustman's hat,
He wears cor blimey trousers,
Has he been in your flat?

If so, please call porkie-pie stoppers on this Portuguese number.

by russiandoll 21.03.14 11:30

Monteiro's widow has a good case for libel, if he is named in the media as having molested girls if there is no proof that he did so.

comment on latest from textusa :

Our binmen are in a group of at least 4 people and my goodness are they noisy!!!! No wonder the sound of this bin lorry was supposed to be heard in Portugal in the quiet of the early hours of the morning. I’m sure our binmen would be very annoyed if one of them wandered off to have a look in apartments to find one with a child and not just any child but ones between the ages of 7 and 10, British, blonde and a non screamer as well as having parents who wouldn’t call the police while they carried on doing the work emptying bins. Is someone seriously implying that bin lorries in Portugal cover such a huge area that smellyman visited????

by whatliesbehindthesofa 21.03.14 11:31

Doug D wrote:WLBTS

But even if you could reduce it to 45 minutes it will still invalidate GM's check, or did he not only fail to see him hiding behind the door, but also failed to smell him (because he had used his aftershave)?
If pot-bellied man had been hiding behind the door when GM went into the room, are we seriously supposed to believe that the door would have opened wide enough for him to enter the room, (which he must have done to see M. lying 'in exactly the same position as we'd left her' and MO effectively confirmed this must have happened, as he couldn't see M. from outside the room) without noticing that the door didn't open properly?
How many more times can they change or re-interpret their stories to try and fit the facts?

I'm not supporting Gerry's story of the abductor being in the room, because there was no abductor :)

Just pointing out that as far as time of death is concerned I'm not convinced that the body would have to have been dead for 90 minutes otherwise the dogs wouldn't have detected. I strongly doubt that any tests have been done using freshly dead 3-4 year old girls in Portugal.

by mouse 21.03.14 11:32

Quote below - Mirage (must add my vote to your posts always making me laugh - even on this very sad issue it has to be said)

Pondering timings here. If I've got this right, the following:

1 Goncalo Amaral gives interview.
2 The CW update unexpectedly scheduled in.
3 Reports of around 250 calls and texts come in.
4 Portugal counters MET criticisms about the sexual predator.
5 A R's Guardian article altered
6 Cameron offers help

Mirage - I would concur with you that this does really feel like a knee jerk reaction - GA's interview goes out - SY put their panic pants on and announce the new CW Madeleine update. Now if I remember this correctly, during the week we had a breaking news story on Claudia Lawrence's disappearance. It was trailed at first as the headline update story on CW that week. We had to tune in to hear more. Now, not one mention of a Madeleine update then. Then, quite suddenly, we get a breaking news story about Madeleine! Claudia's disappearance on the programme had now been relegated, as far as I can see from top billing to 'other story tonight'. This felt all very last minute and for me - just confirmed, particularly when I heard what AR had to say - or more significantly didn't have to say with regard to an update, that this was a bit of panic panting. In other words using the BBC Platform to get their story out to the British Public, rather than GA's side of the story, or the PJ's. Poor Claudia Lawrence - to me it appeared her sad story was quite simply hijacked.

Just my thoughts of course.

PS Keep up the good work Mirage.

by AndyB 21.03.14 11:33

russiandoll wrote:Monteiro's widow has a good case for libel, if he is named in the media as having molested girls if there is no proof that he did so.

comment on latest from textusa :

Our binmen are in a group of at least 4 people and my goodness are they noisy!!!! No wonder the sound of this bin lorry was supposed to be heard in Portugal in the quiet of the early hours of the morning. I’m sure our binmen would be very annoyed if one of them wandered off to have a look in apartments to find one with a child and not just any child but ones between the ages of 7 and 10, British, blonde and a non screamer as well as having parents who wouldn’t call the police while they carried on doing the work emptying bins. Is someone seriously implying that bin lorries in Portugal cover such a huge area that smellyman visited????

I don't know about Portugal but in the UK you can't libel dead people

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