CRIMEWATCH ON BBC ***Part 1 DISCUSSION****

The Slave wrote:

Sceneset wrote:Why do you think that The Slave? Or could you post a link please if it has English subtitles?

Now where did my link go?

On the new thread The Slave.............German Crimewatch

The window of opportunity for an abductor is obviously a key factor in SY's approach. The discounting of JT's 'creche man'... in a very casual manner, has changed what this opportunity was previously perceived to be... both in duration and when.

However, from what I've read over the last few days ... only came across this site and maccannfiles last week... confusion, through misinformation, has been sited (and demonstrated) a valuable tactic by Madeleine's parents (consciously or not), the extended family and to a lesser extent, the T7 throughout.

Did this tactic come about by chance?

Or did it form a central part of the stratagem... when as I believe, after discovering the poor girl's body two nights earlier (Kate admits to sleeping in the kid's room the Wednesday night - Gerry's snoring - and not as I believe, to avoid the fact Madeleine's body was in the cupboard, probably packed in ice in the missing bag), they decided their futures where more important than what was right (and decent) for her... but then again why change?

IMHO the true 'window of opportunity' is the period between discovering 'Madeleine was missing' and 'the arrival of the police'. During what was probably a chaotic time... when a number of witnesses actually state Gerry was out looking for her... (and I believe, here again, he has been willing to allow comments he didn't do this) this was always seen as the opportunity to create amongst other things, the "false sighting"... Gerry carrying a child (but not Madeleine... too risky carrying a dead child) with a view to laying a trail (as per a hypothesis on this site a couple years back.. apologies to the original poster as I lost track how far back I read... I have done very little work these last 9 days or so!). The problem being, he hadn't envisaged walking so close to 'witnesses'... which on his return required JT to see the 'abductor' at 9.15'ish, when Gerry was in conversation with Jez... leading to the hastily re-drawn timescale, in turn, putting back the discovery by some 15 or 20 minutes. 

How do I view SY's performance on Monday during CW? I believe (hope) AR's '... back to zero...' is a statement of intent. However, given the nature of the beast... it has to be a case of chipping away at the T9's collective stance (I'll be generous, distorted truths), whilst at the same time eliminating all other lines of inquiry. First JT's 'abductor' is discarded... (and following on from Blacksmith's domino analogy) what next, 10pm becomes 9.40pm... as one by one, all other suspects are crossed off the list... and as some have already mentioned, the parents of Madeleine are right there. Best seats in the house as AR conducts, giving the performance of his life (sic). Only the auditorium is slowly emptying. Still, they can rely on their seven guests... only one or two are fidgeting in their seats (Paynes?), desperate to get out into the fresh air.

Estelle wrote:These witnesses also stated that Gerry McCann did not even go to check on the children, when he went away of the restaurant, and that he only stayed at the apartment of Praia da Luz entrance.

Why? What was he doing hanging around the entrance?

AndyB wrote:

Estelle wrote:These witnesses also stated that Gerry McCann did not even go to check on the children, when he went away of the restaurant, and that he only stayed at the apartment of Praia da Luz entrance.

Why? What was he doing hanging around the entrance?

could he have been doing something to the shutters,as Wilkins said at one time

Smokeandmirrors wrote:
There is also a witness statement from someone else at the Tapas (not the main group, another party or couple) which is not in the public domain, and I wager this contradicts the timings or absences from the table.

I have seen references recently to several witness statements which are apparently not in the public domain.

Yet I am sure that somebody (Dr Amaral?) has said that all the Portuguese police papers were published apart from those specifically relating to previously known paedophiles?

Can anybody help? Smoke and Mirrors, how do you know about this witness statement? If there may be others which we don't know about, then that certainly puts a new complexion on things.

nobodythereeither wrote:

Smokeandmirrors wrote:
There is also a witness statement from someone else at the Tapas (not the main group, another party or couple) which is not in the public domain, and I wager this contradicts the timings or absences from the table.

I have seen references recently to several witness statements which are apparently not in the public domain.

Yet I am sure that somebody (Dr Amaral?) has said that all the Portuguese police papers were published apart from those specifically relating to previously known paedophiles?

Can anybody help? Smoke and Mirrors, how do you know about this witness statement? If there may be others which we don't know about, then that certainly puts a new complexion on things.

I just picked up on it mentioned here, I think it refers to Rasta-man Sperrey. There are also statements from the Carpenters which I don't believe have been disclosed. Also, the PJ retained around 33% of the files, so what other statements could be there is anyones guess.

ETA : We MUST remember that the most important stuff wil not be in the public domain nor will it be until or if this ever comes to a proper Court hearing!!

Madeleine McCann: Police 'hunt men in swimming shorts seen near Praia da Luz apartment 24 hours before Maddie vanished'

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A British holidaymaker says the two men, thought to be Dutch or German, made him feel uneasy


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tiny wrote:

AndyB wrote:

Estelle wrote:These witnesses also stated that Gerry McCann did not even go to check on the children, when he went away of the restaurant, and that he only stayed at the apartment of Praia da Luz entrance.

Why? What was he doing hanging around the entrance?

could he have been doing something to the shutters,as Wilkins said at one time

Possibly but the entrance doesn't appear to be anywhere near 5a
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Smokeandmirrors wrote: Also, the PJ retained around 33% of the files, so what other statements could be there is anyones guess.

Where do you get that figure from?

Sorry to push, but I was definitely under the impression that it was only a few files relating to paedophiles which had not been released.

I understood that for reasons of transparency the PJ were legally bound to release all other files into the public domain? Is that not correct?

nobodythereeither wrote:

Smokeandmirrors wrote:
There is also a witness statement from someone else at the Tapas (not the main group, another party or couple) which is not in the public domain, and I wager this contradicts the timings or absences from the table.

I have seen references recently to several witness statements which are apparently not in the public domain.

Yet I am sure that somebody (Dr Amaral?) has said that all the Portuguese police papers were published apart from those specifically relating to previously known paedophiles?

Can anybody help? Smoke and Mirrors, how do you know about this witness statement? If there may be others which we don't know about, then that certainly puts a new complexion on things.

Information on the reason for the missing files:

With thanks to Albym :
As requested, the list of pages pulled from the files. I haven't done a full literal translation but essentially:
- Category A
relate to people identified during the inquiry whose possible link to the events is extremely unlikely (the most tenuous) and whose right to privacy would be infringed if their personal information were left on file (basically the 'pervy percy' list).
- Category B
relate to crimestopper data with respect to sightings, the TV program having guaranteed anonymity.
- Category C
relate to information from people - often criminals or having a criminal history - that was volunteered by them and they should not be put at risk for having come forward.

You will notice that in the DVD forum Volume-by-Volume Index there are occasional notes on missing pages. Those that I have checked relate to pages withdrawn in accordance with these instructions.

nobodythereeither wrote:

Smokeandmirrors wrote: Also, the PJ retained around 33% of the files, so what other statements could be there is anyones guess.

Where do you get that figure from?

Sorry to push, but I was definitely under the impression that it was only a few files relating to paedophiles which had not been released.

I understood that for reasons of transparency the PJ were legally bound to release all other files into the public domain? Is that not correct?

When they first released the files on DVD (Sorry it was 5 yrs ago so not going to trawl through stuff, but someone else may know for sure). Also noteworthy is the McCanns tried to get the courts to order Leicester police to hand over their files, a request that was denied. So there is undoubtedly much information that is not in the public domain.

candyfloss wrote:Madeleine McCann: Police 'hunt men in swimming shorts seen near Praia da Luz apartment 24 hours before Maddie vanished'

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A British holidaymaker says the two men, thought to be Dutch or German, made him feel uneasy


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Thanks candyfloss. I thought your headline was a spoof until I checked the article and found it was real. Wow. That's amazing. Men in swimming shorts at a beach resort. Whatever next? Soon they'll be telling us that these two men were seen on the same beach as some children. That would clearly be conclusive. The fact that they are also foreign can leave no doubt in anyone's mind. Breakthrough! Revelation!

Thanks for the laugh CF, I thought it was a spoof headline also.

Snipped from the article:

" 
The holidaymaker said the men made him feel uneasy.
The bare-chested pair were mentioned on [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], when a [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] of fair-haired men seen around the Portuguese resort.

They simply have to be greasy, foreign paedos, don't they?!

Hanging about half-naked where children can be found?

I must retreat to my darkened room to recover!

nobodythereeither wrote:

Smokeandmirrors wrote:
There is also a witness statement from someone else at the Tapas (not the main group, another party or couple) which is not in the public domain, and I wager this contradicts the timings or absences from the table.

I have seen references recently to several witness statements which are apparently not in the public domain.

Yet I am sure that somebody (Dr Amaral?) has said that all the Portuguese police papers were published apart from those specifically relating to previously known paedophiles?

Can anybody help? Smoke and Mirrors, how do you know about this witness statement? If there may be others which we don't know about, then that certainly puts a new complexion on things.

I am pretty sure one of Mr. A's  police witnesses at the libel trial said that all files had been released apart from those relating to named paedophiles.

plebgate wrote:

nobodythereeither wrote:

Smokeandmirrors wrote:
There is also a witness statement from someone else at the Tapas (not the main group, another party or couple) which is not in the public domain, and I wager this contradicts the timings or absences from the table.

I have seen references recently to several witness statements which are apparently not in the public domain.

Yet I am sure that somebody (Dr Amaral?) has said that all the Portuguese police papers were published apart from those specifically relating to previously known paedophiles?

Can anybody help? Smoke and Mirrors, how do you know about this witness statement? If there may be others which we don't know about, then that certainly puts a new complexion on things.

I am pretty sure one of Mr. A's  police witnesses at the libel trial said that all files had been released apart from those relating to named paedophiles.

Released DVD had 11,223 documents/pages. IIRC the original files had somewhere around 30,000 pieces. Tony, you'd know this, are you able to clarify?

Smokeandmirrors wrote:

plebgate wrote:

nobodythereeither wrote:

Smokeandmirrors wrote:
There is also a witness statement from someone else at the Tapas (not the main group, another party or couple) which is not in the public domain, and I wager this contradicts the timings or absences from the table.

I have seen references recently to several witness statements which are apparently not in the public domain.

Yet I am sure that somebody (Dr Amaral?) has said that all the Portuguese police papers were published apart from those specifically relating to previously known paedophiles?

Can anybody help? Smoke and Mirrors, how do you know about this witness statement? If there may be others which we don't know about, then that certainly puts a new complexion on things.

I am pretty sure one of Mr. A's  police witnesses at the libel trial said that all files had been released apart from those relating to named paedophiles.

Released DVD had 11,223 documents/pages. IIRC the original files had somewhere around 30,000 pieces. Tony, you'd know this, are you able to clarify?

Just checked some old newspapers around the release date, 20,000 documents is sighted to be the TOTAL figure. My browser for some reason doesn't display web address/link otherwise would copy and paste it, although it's all really easy to find on McCannFiles.

Something which Gerry said in Crimewatch and has said previously, confuses me. He insists that the younger a child is when they are abducted, the chance of them being found alive, is statistically higher. Does anyone know where he gets this often quoted statistic from?

I've done a quick search of cases I can remember where children were recovered alive, and most are older children/teenagers. Can anyone think of any other very young children, who were found years later?

Jaycee Dugard - abducted aged 11, found 18 years later.
Elizabeth Smart - abducted aged 14, found nine months later.

Shaun Hornbeck - abducted aged 11, found 4 years later, along with
William Benjamin "Ben" Ownby - abducted aged 13, found 4 days later.

Steven Staynor - abducted aged 7, escaped 7 years later along with
Timmy White abducted aged 5, escaped 2 weeks later.

Carlina White - abducted from hospital aged 19 days, discovered her true identity 23 years later.
Katie Beers - abducted aged 9, found 17 days later.
Natascha Kampusch - abducted aged 10, escaped 8 years later.
Natasha Ryan - "abducted" aged 14, found living secretly with her boyfriend 5 years later (they later married!!!)

Amanda Berry - abducted aged 16, found 10 years later, along with
Gina DeJesus - abducted aged 14, found 9 years later, with
Michelle Knight - abducted aged 21 (I know she wasn't a child, but she was held with the 2 above), found 11 years later.

Elisabeth Fritzl - abducted aged 18, found 24 years later, along with her children.
Steve Carter - reported missing by his father, when he was 6 months old. taken by his mother, who gave false names and handed him over to the authorities. Placed in an orphanage and later adopted. Discovered his true identity 35 years later!

Shasta Groene - abducted aged 8, found 7 weeks later ( her kidnapper had killed her parents and siblings)
Christi and Bobby Baskin - abducted aged 8 and 7 by their Grandfather, found 20 years later.
Alex Griffiths - abducted from hospital aged 2 days, found 17 days later.


Is there anyone I've missed out? I must be missing loads, if Gerry's statistic is correct.

plebgate wrote:Thanks for the laugh CF, I thought it was a spoof headline also.

Snipped from the article:

" 
The holidaymaker said the men made him feel uneasy.
The bare-chested pair were mentioned on [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], when a [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] of fair-haired men seen around the Portuguese resort.

Check out all the latest News, Sport & Celeb gossip at Mirror.co.uk [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Follow us: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] | [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]"


the bare-chested pair.      

Did either of them resemble Victoria Beckham?

Re: CRIMEWATCH ON BBC ***DISCUSSION****

New post sofieellis Today at 11:51 am
.



Something which Gerry said in Crimewatch and has said previously, confuses me. He insists that the younger a child is when they are abducted, the chance of them being found alive, is statistically higher. Does anyone know where he gets this often quoted statistic from?"

Then why didn't the "abductor" take one of the twins?

sofieellis wrote:Something which Gerry said in Crimewatch and has said previously, confuses me. He insists that the younger a child is when they are abducted, the chance of them being found alive, is statistically higher. Does anyone know where he gets this often quoted statistic from?

I've done a quick search of cases I can remember where children were recovered alive, and most are older children/teenagers. Can anyone think of any other very young children, who were found years later?

Jaycee Dugard - abducted aged 11, found 18 years later.
Elizabeth Smart - abducted aged 14, found nine months later.

Shaun Hornbeck - abducted aged 11, found 4 years later, along with
William Benjamin "Ben" Ownby - abducted aged 13, found 4 days later.

Steven Staynor - abducted aged 7, escaped 7 years later along with
Timmy White abducted aged 5, escaped 2 weeks later.

Carlina White - abducted from hospital aged 19 days, discovered her true identity 23 years later.
Katie Beers - abducted aged 9, found 17 days later.
Natascha Kampusch - abducted aged 10, escaped 8 years later.
Natasha Ryan - "abducted" aged 14, found living secretly with her boyfriend 5 years later (they later married!!!)

Amanda Berry - abducted aged 16, found 10 years later, along with
Gina DeJesus - abducted aged 14, found 9 years later, with
Michelle Knight - abducted aged 21 (I know she wasn't a child, but she was held with the 2 above), found 11 years later.

Elisabeth Fritzl - abducted aged 18, found 24 years later, along with her children.
Steve Carter - reported missing by his father, when he was 6 months old. taken by his mother, who gave false names and handed him over to the authorities. Placed in an orphanage and later adopted. Discovered his true identity 35 years later!

Shasta Groene - abducted aged 8, found 7 weeks later ( her kidnapper had killed her parents and siblings)
Christi and Bobby Baskin - abducted aged 8 and 7 by their Grandfather, found 20 years later.
Alex Griffiths - abducted from hospital aged 2 days, found 17 days later.


Is there anyone I've missed out? I must be missing loads, if Gerry's statistic is correct.

And just for the record, could any of these children be described as not having come to any harm?

so it was a pre-planned abduction and they were being watched - as has been said many, many times before over the last 6.5 years, if it was planned why didn't the abductor strike the night Mrs. Fenn heard the crying for over an hour.

Why would they plan it for that particular night?

sallypelt wrote:

nobodythereeither wrote:

Smokeandmirrors wrote:
There is also a witness statement from someone else at the Tapas (not the main group, another party or couple) which is not in the public domain, and I wager this contradicts the timings or absences from the table.

I have seen references recently to several witness statements which are apparently not in the public domain.

Yet I am sure that somebody (Dr Amaral?) has said that all the Portuguese police papers were published apart from those specifically relating to previously known paedophiles?

Can anybody help? Smoke and Mirrors, how do you know about this witness statement? If there may be others which we don't know about, then that certainly puts a new complexion on things.

Information on the reason for the missing files:

With thanks to Albym :
 As requested, the list of pages pulled from the files. I haven't done a full literal translation but essentially:  
- Category A
relate to people identified during the inquiry whose possible link to the events is extremely unlikely (the most tenuous) and whose right to privacy would be infringed if their personal information were left on file (basically the 'pervy percy' list).
- Category B
relate to crimestopper data with respect to sightings, the TV program having guaranteed anonymity.
- Category C
relate to information from people - often criminals or having a criminal history - that was volunteered by them and they should not be put at risk for having come forward.

You will notice that in the DVD forum Volume-by-Volume Index there are occasional notes on missing pages. Those that I have checked relate to pages withdrawn in accordance with these instructions.

I've always wondered why CT's original statement & e-fit are missing from the files. It doesn't seem to fit with any of the catergories you've listed.

 [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Carole Tranmer

Original interview and identikit not included in DVD:

In the interview of Carole Tranmer on 22nd April 2008, as recorded on DVD, reference is made more than once to a statement given by her to Leics police on 8 May 2007, and to an identikit that was created with the assistance of a police officer from Reading.

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Thanks for providing that list sofieellis and  

I came across the Groene case by chance recently on YouTube and it will haunt me for a long time. The mother, partner and 13-year-old son who were killed at the scene were comparatively lucky compared to what happened to the two younger children who were taken away. 

The only case I can think of that you don't mention is that of 4-year-old Simon Jones who was abducted from a park in the early 1990s and found alive 8 weeks later.

Something which Gerry said in Crimewatch and has said previously, confuses me. He insists that the younger a child is when they are abducted, the chance of them being found alive, is statistically higher. Does anyone know where he gets this often quoted statistic from?"

Perhaps those CEOP manuals he mysteriously acquired....?

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Thanks for providing that list sofieellis and  

I came across the Groene case by chance recently on YouTube and it will haunt me for a long time. The mother, partner and 13-year-old son who were killed at the scene were comparatively lucky compared to what happened to the two younger children who were taken away. 

The only case I can think of that you don't mention is that of 4-year-old Simon Jones who was abducted from a park in the early 1990s and found alive 8 weeks later.

Thank you very much. Thank you for that case, I don't remember hearing of Simon before.

Oh and of course, I forgot Shannon Matthews - aged 10 when she disappeared, found 24 days later. Abduction was a hoax.

I've found something about the Jones case.
 
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plebgate wrote:

nobodythereeither wrote:

Smokeandmirrors wrote:
There is also a witness statement from someone else at the Tapas (not the main group, another party or couple) which is not in the public domain, and I wager this contradicts the timings or absences from the table.

I have seen references recently to several witness statements which are apparently not in the public domain.

Yet I am sure that somebody (Dr Amaral?) has said that all the Portuguese police papers were published apart from those specifically relating to previously known paedophiles?

Can anybody help? Smoke and Mirrors, how do you know about this witness statement? If there may be others which we don't know about, then that certainly puts a new complexion on things.

I am pretty sure one of Mr. A's  police witnesses at the libel trial said that all files had been released apart from those relating to named paedophiles.

Yes, that must be where I heard it from.

And I can't see that Leicestershire Police would have interviewed anybody (apart from the rogs requested by the Portuguese) so I'm not sure how these witness statements would not have been in the public domain, as if they were from fellow diners at the Tapas Bar surely those people wouldn't fit into any of the three categories mentioned?

ETA: Just seen your post, Daisy, thanks. Then I still don't understand. If Leicester Police did interview other people, surely those statements or whatever would have been sent to Portugal and included in their files? Or can nothing be added after the first tranche of files are released about a case in Portugal?

Just a bit bemused.

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:I've found something about the Jones case.
 
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That's scary.... that is literally on my doorstep!

Please correct me if I am wrong, but in the very early days of this case, didn't TM state on several occasions that they felt they were being watched or that the children were being watched? If this is the case it beggars belief that they went out night atfer night and left the poor mites alone.