Re: CRIMEWATCH ON BBC ***Part 1 DISCUSSION****

by Smokeandmirrors 16.10.13 22:30

StraightThinking wrote:NSY says that, by moving the abduction timeline back to after 21.15, it creates a bigger window of opportunity for an abductor to strike

I don't agree. In fact, it has made an abduction almost impossible

21.30 approx - MO and RO'B doing checks

21.40 approx - the balance of independent witnesses suggests that the Tapas table emptied around this time (except DW), ie this is when the alarm was raised, not 21.55 as widely assumed

NSY has the new abduction window as 21.15 - 22.00 but it can't have been later than 21.35-ish

So the opportunity is limited to the point of near impossibility

I believe there is a Tapas Bar receipt timed at about 22.00 (?), suggesting that the party went on until then, but the bill would presumably have been issued when DW finally left the table, rather than when the others were all dashing for the exit on the alarm being sounded

There is no significant opportunity for an abductor in that new timeline, despite what CW stated

Great first post. There is also a witness statement from someone else at the Tapas (not the main group, another party or couple) which is not in the public domain, and I wager this contradicts the timings or absences from the table.

In addition to that, what makes abduction highly unlikely is the TWO very close together checks made by Matt and Gerry, and Jane going by, Matt again at 9-30.

Anyone seriously watching for an opportunity, given the frequency of alleged checks PLUS the lights being visibly on in Mrs Fenn's apartment upstairs, is too high risk IMO. I simply cannot believe it is a risk that would have been taken. IF the alarm WAS raised at 9-40, you are correct, there was virtually NO chance in line with PeterMacs timings from before the Tanner sighting was discounted. Whichever way they spin it, it just sounds completely stupid.

As an aside, in an interview with Sandra Figuerla(sp?), she said they were checking every 15 mins. Gerry jumps straight in there, annoyed almost, and pointedly says No, it was every half an hour. On that night, the ONLY half an hour opportunity was between 9-30 and 10. Gerry was very strange when he replied.

If anyone can put a link up for this clip I would be most grateful indeed. He was at pains to ENSURE the half hour was set in stone.

by sallypelt 16.10.13 22:40

Well, thinks appear to be unfolding. It's being said that more than one person heard someone calling out Madeleine's name around 9:30. One tweet has said that someone heard Kate give out a "piecing scream". If these claims have any credibility, it could account for the bruises on Kate McCann's arms on the very earliest appeal. She must have be hysterical, but Gerry could have tried to calm her down. And grabbing someone by the arms would be the thing to do, IMO.

by Sceneset 16.10.13 22:56

Hi sallypelt, I think that may have been said on an ITV or BBC interview, on a sifa...not with Sandra. I'm wracking my brains, will post if I can remember!

by stillsloppingout 16.10.13 23:02

Prehensile wrote:
nomendelta wrote:Now let's get this right...

The Tanner sighting has always been regarded as dubious - numerous discrepancies in her account along with her remarkable ability to embellish details the more time had passed. Yet it's one that the McCanns leaped on and many artistic impressions have been done based on the sighting.

Now, SY have identified the "bundleman" to their satisfaction and not only was it not an abductor, the child wasn't Maddie but WAS about the same age and WAS wearing similar pyjamas.

Here is my quandary. Either it's all true and by some remarkable coincidence Tanner really DID see such a person - a person carrying a child of Maddie's rough age wearing clothes similar to Maddie at the same time that Maddie herself was being abducted and, apparently, walked by the bad man down to the beach...incredible stuff that would stretch the belief of even the most avid "Murder She Wrote" fan.

Furthermore, some have posited that Tanner made it up at the behest of the McCanns. Now, if this was the case...what exactly must be going through their heads right now?
I posted a similar question yesterday, inasmuch T9 must know they have been rumbled.

As Posters have alluded to.

SY read this site , The McCann's, and there band of merry men , plus the tapas friends read this site also [ HI !! ]. They know that we know they have been rumbled . but don't forget IMO as we know there was NO Tanner sighting , i wait with baited breath for the papers to be full of interviews with this poor man who , to paraphrase Mitchell ' had a perfectly innocent explanation for being there '.

There will not be any interviews because this man does NOT exist .

If the Yard were in pursuit of justice , it is always wise to remember especially to our " tapas munching friend's ," !!! the public take kinder to the first person to confess , they have the opportunity to get there reasoning out first .

by sallypelt 16.10.13 23:02

Taken From S Carpenter's PJ Statement:

Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home, we walked across the MW reception area, crossed the road and a semi circular path to return to the apartment, were we put the children to bed and a short while later did the same ourselves. I do not remember seeing or hearing anyone during our return to the apartment. When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****. They were about six metres away from me and i calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry's apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there. My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment

So, the Carpenters left the Tapas bar between 9:15 and 9:30, and around this time Mrs Carpenter heard someone calling Madeleine

by Guest 16.10.13 23:11

Sceneset wrote:Hi sallypelt, I think that may have been said on an ITV or BBC interview, on a sifa...not with Sandra. I'm wracking my brains, will post if I can remember!

With Sandra @4.15

by Sceneset 16.10.13 23:18

Well done Candyfloss, though i'll hunt for the other one too , I'm always shocked that their interview replies are so scripted that they repeat themselves verbatim to each similar question.

by The Slave 16.10.13 23:21

Not this time they didn't. Gerry stares at kate with a look of bewilderment and panic. Marvelous.

by Sceneset 16.10.13 23:21

Why do you think that The Slave? Or could you post a link please if it has English subtitles?

by MoonGoddess 16.10.13 23:30

sallypelt wrote:Taken From S Carpenter's PJ Statement:

Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home, we walked across the MW reception area, crossed the road and a semi circular path to return to the apartment, were we put the children to bed and a short while later did the same ourselves. I do not remember seeing or hearing anyone during our return to the apartment. When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****. They were about six metres away from me and i calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry's apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there. My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment

So, the Carpenters left the Tapas bar between 9:15 and 9:30, and around this time Mrs Carpenter heard someone calling Madeleine

does anyone else think JT saw SC and just placed him at the top of the road instead of the middle? this was supposedly at the time of her check.... OR she didn't do a check, but had seen him leave the Tapas and knew he was walking/carrying his daughter in the area with his daughter.. she felt confident to go with her 'sighting' because she knew it could be true....

by Smokeandmirrors 16.10.13 23:38

candyfloss wrote:
Sceneset wrote:Hi sallypelt, I think that may have been said on an ITV or BBC interview, on a sifa...not with Sandra. I'm wracking my brains, will post if I can remember!
With Sandra @4.15

Thank you Candyfloss

by Woofer 16.10.13 23:55

MoonGoddess wrote:
sallypelt wrote:Taken From S Carpenter's PJ Statement:

Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home, we walked across the MW reception area, crossed the road and a semi circular path to return to the apartment, were we put the children to bed and a short while later did the same ourselves. I do not remember seeing or hearing anyone during our return to the apartment. When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****. They were about six metres away from me and i calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry's apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there. My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment

So, the Carpenters left the Tapas bar between 9:15 and 9:30, and around this time Mrs Carpenter heard someone calling Madeleine
does anyone else think JT saw SC and just placed him at the top of the road instead of the middle? this was supposedly at the time of her check.... OR she didn't do a check, but had seen him leave the Tapas and knew he was walking/carrying his daughter in the area with his daughter.. she felt confident to go with her 'sighting' because she knew it could be true....

Now ... there`s a thought.... especially if the Carpenters crossed the road a bit further up.

by sallypelt 17.10.13 0:08

I can't believe what I am reading
Quote

Joan Burnie: Kate and Gerry McCann shouldn't be persecuted by vile online trolls for trying to find their daughter

Such as James Bulger’s mum, Denise, momentarily losing track of her son in a shopping centre.
Unquote

There is NO comparison with what happened to J Bulger and Madeleine McCann. James was at his mother's side. The McCann children were left on their own

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by MoonGoddess 17.10.13 0:08

Woofer wrote:
MoonGoddess wrote:
sallypelt wrote:Taken From S Carpenter's PJ Statement:

Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home, we walked across the MW reception area, crossed the road and a semi circular path to return to the apartment, were we put the children to bed and a short while later did the same ourselves. I do not remember seeing or hearing anyone during our return to the apartment. When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****. They were about six metres away from me and i calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry's apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there. My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment

So, the Carpenters left the Tapas bar between 9:15 and 9:30, and around this time Mrs Carpenter heard someone calling Madeleine
does anyone else think JT saw SC and just placed him at the top of the road instead of the middle? this was supposedly at the time of her check.... OR she didn't do a check, but had seen him leave the Tapas and knew he was walking/carrying his daughter in the area with his daughter.. she felt confident to go with her 'sighting' because she knew it could be true....
Now ... there`s a thought.... especially if the Carpenters crossed the road a bit further up.

he indicates that they crossed the road outside the main reception, she could have been walking down towards the reception and just spun the scene around.... I don't believe she left the table, I think she saw him leave the tapas.... anyone familiar with Tracey Andrews/Lee Harvey might remember that she did a similar thing by placing someone they'd seen at the pub and made him into the 'road rage man'

Just watched the German version of Crimewatch, Thank You to whoever posted.... bit too tired to fully digest but it appeared to have far more detail and I wonder why.... LOL'd when they showed Gerry checking the time on his watch that the Pink one said he wasn't wearing!

by Guest 17.10.13 0:12

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Darkened room here I come after reading this.

This one is even worse.

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Words fail me at the comparison between James Bulger's mother and the McCanns.

Just off to vacuum up all the feathers that I've spat everywhere.

Yes sallypelt, this one didn't do my blood pressure any good. Apparently Joan Burnie is well known in Scotland for being a mad old bat.

I hope that James's mother complains about being linked with the McCanns.

by Mirage 17.10.13 0:14

sallypelt wrote:I can't believe what I am reading
Quote

Joan Burnie: Kate and Gerry McCann shouldn't be persecuted by vile online trolls for trying to find their daughter

Such as James Bulger’s mum, Denise, momentarily losing track of her son in a shopping centre.
Unquote

There is NO comparison with what happened to J Bulger and Madeleine McCann. James was at his mother's side. The McCann children were left on their own

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I saw this earlier today, sallypelt. It is breath-taking that Mrs Ferguson should be traduced in this way. I don't doubt she'll have plenty to say when she finds out and I don't blame her. This and another piece of sycophantic drivel in the DM today from Sarah Vine tells me there is something really dreadful going on in our society. Neither article has been well received. This Sarah Vine is the wife of Education Secretary Michael Gove, I read somewhere.

by Prehensile 17.10.13 0:14

sallypelt wrote:I can't believe what I am reading
Quote

Joan Burnie: Kate and Gerry McCann shouldn't be persecuted by vile online trolls for trying to find their daughter

Such as James Bulger’s mum, Denise, momentarily losing track of her son in a shopping centre.
Unquote

There is NO comparison with what happened to J Bulger and Madeleine McCann. James was at his mother's side. The McCann children were left on their own

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

My wife has dealt with the daily record....Annie Barrett

by sallypelt 17.10.13 0:15

Prehensile wrote:
sallypelt wrote:I can't believe what I am reading
Quote

Joan Burnie: Kate and Gerry McCann shouldn't be persecuted by vile online trolls for trying to find their daughter

Such as James Bulger’s mum, Denise, momentarily losing track of her son in a shopping centre.
Unquote

There is NO comparison with what happened to J Bulger and Madeleine McCann. James was at his mother's side. The McCann children were left on their own

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
My wife has dealt with the daily record....Annie Barrett

Prehensile, I hope it's in connection with the Jame Bulger claim. If I was Denise Fergerson I would be livid

by sallypelt 17.10.13 0:24

I've read so many posts on here, today, after being without internet access since 7:30 PM Monday evening until this morning. I can see that a few posters have referred to me, but I have missed most of them, until this evening, as I was jumping from thread to thread. So, a belated ty to MoonGodess and others. I am glad to be back, and hope that I am now up to speed.

I have to say that my brain is scrambled with all this info to absorb

by notlongnow 17.10.13 0:25

Are SY upping the ante and putting subtle changes and emphasis on certain T7 witness to force there hand to a confession?

by Prehensile 17.10.13 0:33

sallypelt wrote:
Prehensile wrote:
sallypelt wrote:I can't believe what I am reading
Quote

Joan Burnie: Kate and Gerry McCann shouldn't be persecuted by vile online trolls for trying to find their daughter

Such as James Bulger’s mum, Denise, momentarily losing track of her son in a shopping centre.
Unquote

There is NO comparison with what happened to J Bulger and Madeleine McCann. James was at his mother's side. The McCann children were left on their own

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
My wife has dealt with the daily record....Annie Barrett
Prehensile, I hope it's in connection with the Jame Bulger claim. If I was Denise Fergerson I would be livid

She has complained but we wont hold our breath. Years back we complained about JB suggesting to a woman kicking a partner in the nuts after finding he had had an affair, the same woman who is so against domestic violence.

by russiandoll 17.10.13 1:24

hello intrigued and welcome.. imo Redwood has not trapped them. He has taken away the impossible , Tannerman and they are left trapped.......their own doing.

by chillyheat 17.10.13 1:33

Am I thinking right here....
Tannerman was a total fabrication, but SY has bluffed them by saying that person has come forward ?
Is this the gist of it ?......Im confused lol
If it seems that's the plan, then SY have this almost sussed

by sonic72 17.10.13 1:43

I can't get my head round the fact they expect us to believe that a person or persons saw them on holiday and thought, we want to steal that child, let's watch this family night and day all week to see if they have a weakness in their daily pattern, so they can determine a window of opportunity to steal the child.

For one, someone in the group would have spotted someone shadowing them all week, and the Mccanns and co formed a routine from day one, so these supposed abductors would not have waited until the Thursday, they would have struck earlier because they would have sussed the Mccann's routine already, and there would be less chance of being spotted tailing the Mccann's if they did it as soon as they had their routine sussed.

The supposed abductor would not have gone on a walk towards the sea either, because it makes no logical sense unless they had a speed boat at the ready, or a car parked some distance away. A person on foot carrying a child cannot exactly run, and walking towards the sea is not exactly the quickest route if you are trying to make a fast getaway, so the chances of them getting caught with the child in their arms would be fairly high if they took that option. A real abductor would have a waiting car nearby to make a fast getaway.

Redwood said on the BBC website: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"He said they wanted to track down men seen "lurking suspiciously" near the McCanns' apartment block."

If there was someone 'lurking suspiciously' then why was an alarm not raised at the time?

Who was it who said they saw someone 'lurking suspiciously' and why did they not raise the alarm at the time?
I would like to hear them speaking about it on TV...

It also said in that BBC article...

'Police say one reading of Madeleine McCann's disappearance in Portugal in 2007 is that it has "all the hallmarks of a pre-planned abduction".

What hallmarks are they then?! Based on what exactly?!

Has there ever been a case where a child was abducted from an apartment whilst they were on holiday with their parents?!

I would also like to see the person Jane Tanner said she saw speak on TV, and I'd like to see The Smith family tell their version of events on TV too.

Their story has more holes than a well used dart board!

by Guest 17.10.13 1:52

Sonic72, the only case with the vaguest of resemblances that I can think of was the tragic story of Leoni Keating who was taken from a caravan in 1985.

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Yes, this really was a paedo stranger, with the inevitable result.

The media was unanimous in tearing the child's mother to shreds for leaving her daughter alone. Hmmm.

by LastChancery 17.10.13 5:01

they got over 500 clues one hour after the show in germany and calls are still coming in.

lots of people believe they saw madeleine in the last few years in different places.

by Seek truth 17.10.13 5:52

LastChancery wrote:they got over 500 clues one hour after the show in germany and calls are still coming in.

lots of people believe they saw madeleine in the last few years in different places.

Well they better follow them all up!!

lol!

Or they may get criticised like the portuguese police did.

Well some are privileged !

by StraightThinking 17.10.13 8:30

russiandoll wrote:hello intrigued and welcome.. imo Redwood has not trapped them. He has taken away the impossible , Tannerman and they are left trapped.......their own doing.

NSY's new timeline appears to have been accepted by all involved, ie that the only window of opportunity for an abduction was between 21.15 and 21.55

If they can now demonstrate that other events would have made it impossible during that 40 minute window after all, you are left with no abduction. Case partially solved ....

However, the much publicised timeline showing the meal to have been abruptly ended at 21.55 isn't corroborated by independent witness statements, who say it happened about 15 mins earlier. This creates a blank period of 15 mins between 21.40 and 21.55

It then looks significant that the Smith sighting was confirmed at 21.50, 5 mins before the time when we have been told the alarm was raised, but in reality 10 mins after. It would have the effect of making the Smith sighting look irrelevant when its timing is in fact entirely compliant with other events

It also means that the check times may have to be brought forward by up to 15 mins too, which throws the whole timeline into confusion

So what was the sequence of events between 21.40 and 21.55 (real time), during the mysterious timeslot that didn't exist in the original timeline?

by The Slave 17.10.13 8:39

Sceneset wrote:Why do you think that The Slave? Or could you post a link please if it has English subtitles?

Now where did my link go? nah

by russiandoll 17.10.13 9:25

On neither CW did Redwood describe Maddie in detail, nor mention the coloboma....if you think you have seen her and been close up, this is her most distinguishing feature.

Surely a central issue if you want the child to be recognised as well as Smithman ?

6 years later and no real attention to who the public should be paying attention to, no mention of her probable height or build, and crucially the one thing to identify her... just how rare are these eye " flecks" ?