Great News - Trial of Leonara Cipriano begins today *UPDATE* Found GUILTY of making false statements
The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ :: Other Crimes and Mysteries :: Other Fake Abductions, Hoaxes, Appeals and Crocodile Tears
Page 2 of 2 • Share
Page 2 of 2 • 1, 2
Re: Great News - Trial of Leonara Cipriano begins today *UPDATE* Found GUILTY of making false statements
Excellent news!
Please can anyone confirm if Amaral's conviction has been quashed? Thanks.
Please can anyone confirm if Amaral's conviction has been quashed? Thanks.
ShuBob- Posts : 1896
Activity : 1983
Likes received : 67
Join date : 2012-02-07
Re: Great News - Trial of Leonara Cipriano begins today *UPDATE* Found GUILTY of making false statements
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Leonor Cipriano was sentenced on Tuesday to seven months in prison for false statements, advances TVI 24. Already serving a sentence of 16 years for the murder of her daughter Joana, vanished in September 2004, Leonor was now found to have wrongly accused agents of the Judicial Police assault during an interrogation.
Leonor Cipriano, who is currently serving 16 years in prison for murder and concealment of a corpse, gave contradictory statements about alleged abuse he had suffered at the premises of the Judicial Police (PJ) Faro during interrogation that was submitted in investigating the disappearance of her daughter, on September 12, in the village of Figueira, Portimão.
In the judgment of the case which was accused of misrepresenting the panel of judges deemed "flagrant contradictions and relevant it incurred" Leonor Cipriano during the trial, despite having had the "opportunity to reveal the truth." The court has, however, proved as aggression, without, however, having been proved the identity of the attackers.
In the same case, Gonçalo Amaral, former coordinator of the Criminal Investigation Department of the PJ of Portimão, was acquitted of the crime of failure to report abuse and sentenced to a year and a half for the crime of making false allegations, were suspended for the same period . The inspector António Nunes Cardoso was sentenced to two years and three months for forgery of document, sentence suspended for two years.
In turn, the former agents of PJ Paulo Pereira Cristovao Morgado Leonel Marques and Paulo Marques Bom, all accused of having tortured Leonor Cipriano in interrogations, were acquitted.
Leonor Cipriano was sentenced on Tuesday to seven months in prison for false statements, advances TVI 24. Already serving a sentence of 16 years for the murder of her daughter Joana, vanished in September 2004, Leonor was now found to have wrongly accused agents of the Judicial Police assault during an interrogation.
Leonor Cipriano, who is currently serving 16 years in prison for murder and concealment of a corpse, gave contradictory statements about alleged abuse he had suffered at the premises of the Judicial Police (PJ) Faro during interrogation that was submitted in investigating the disappearance of her daughter, on September 12, in the village of Figueira, Portimão.
In the judgment of the case which was accused of misrepresenting the panel of judges deemed "flagrant contradictions and relevant it incurred" Leonor Cipriano during the trial, despite having had the "opportunity to reveal the truth." The court has, however, proved as aggression, without, however, having been proved the identity of the attackers.
In the same case, Gonçalo Amaral, former coordinator of the Criminal Investigation Department of the PJ of Portimão, was acquitted of the crime of failure to report abuse and sentenced to a year and a half for the crime of making false allegations, were suspended for the same period . The inspector António Nunes Cardoso was sentenced to two years and three months for forgery of document, sentence suspended for two years.
In turn, the former agents of PJ Paulo Pereira Cristovao Morgado Leonel Marques and Paulo Marques Bom, all accused of having tortured Leonor Cipriano in interrogations, were acquitted.
Re: Great News - Trial of Leonara Cipriano begins today *UPDATE* Found GUILTY of making false statements
ShuBob wrote:Excellent news!
Please can anyone confirm if Amaral's conviction has been quashed? Thanks.
Yes, great news ShuBob, I too wondered about Mr Amaral's suspended sentence, the other 3 officers have already been exonerated, so surely he should be now. Meanwhile a certain lawyer who represented her is now in Brazil we are told.
Guest- Guest
Re: Great News - Trial of Leonara Cipriano begins today *UPDATE* Found GUILTY of making false statements
Leonor Cipriano sentenced to seven months in prison
The Court of Faro today condemned Leonor Cipriano to seven months in prison for having made false statements in the case in which five PJ inspectors accused of crimes of aggression and torture.
This penalty is in addition to the 16 years that the defendant complies with the murder of her daughter Joana - missing in the village of Figueira, Portimão, on 12 September 2004 - and which has served about half.
According to the court, it was proven that Leonor Cipriano lied about how officers beat him and submitted in court different versions of events that occurred during the interrogations he underwent in 2004, after the crime.
According to the judge who delivered the judgment today, despite not having taken oath, the defendant, acting as assistant, was warned that he could not miss the fact, at the risk of being punished, and if it did, "he did so because wanted "and consciously.
The court held that the illegality committed is "remarkable gravity" and is "above average degree", given the severe sentence that the defendant complies, the seriousness of the facts, the defendants and the quality of media coverage of the case.
"It is crystal clear that the defendant lacked the truth," the judgment, which highlights various contradictions as to how she was attacked and agents who were present at the interrogation room where he says he was assaulted.
The possibility of imposing a suspended sentence was dismissed because the court finds that, despite the heavy prison sentence that fulfills the defendant continued to show disrespect for the rules.
The court added that it would be "naive" to think that a "mere threat" of imprisonment contributes to the "recovery" of the defendant, who was waived today to appear in court to hear the reading of the judgment.
The contradictory statements about the attacks that were targeted were delivered between 2008 and 2009, during the trial of the inspectors who investigated the "Joana case" that resulted in the conviction of two of the five defendants in the case.
The court gave as proven assaults, though without finding the identity of the attackers.
Gonçalo Amaral, former coordinator of the Criminal Investigation Department of the PJ of Portimão, was acquitted of the crime of failure to report abuse and sentenced to a year and a half for the crime of making false allegations, were suspended for the same period.
The inspector António Nunes Cardoso was sentenced to two years and three months for forgery of document, sentence suspended for two years.
The former agents of PJ Paulo Pereira Cristovao Morgado Leonel Marques and Paulo Marques Bom, who were accused of having tortured Leonor Cipriano in interrogations conducted in Faro PJ, were acquitted.
In prison, Leonor Cipriano attends the 9th. Secondary school and still has activity as placing labels on boxes of fruit, the court said, adding that the detainee did not receive visits from friends or family.
Leonor's brother, João Cipriano, also fulfills 16 years in prison for murder and concealment of a corpse.
The Court of Faro today condemned Leonor Cipriano to seven months in prison for having made false statements in the case in which five PJ inspectors accused of crimes of aggression and torture.
This penalty is in addition to the 16 years that the defendant complies with the murder of her daughter Joana - missing in the village of Figueira, Portimão, on 12 September 2004 - and which has served about half.
According to the court, it was proven that Leonor Cipriano lied about how officers beat him and submitted in court different versions of events that occurred during the interrogations he underwent in 2004, after the crime.
According to the judge who delivered the judgment today, despite not having taken oath, the defendant, acting as assistant, was warned that he could not miss the fact, at the risk of being punished, and if it did, "he did so because wanted "and consciously.
The court held that the illegality committed is "remarkable gravity" and is "above average degree", given the severe sentence that the defendant complies, the seriousness of the facts, the defendants and the quality of media coverage of the case.
"It is crystal clear that the defendant lacked the truth," the judgment, which highlights various contradictions as to how she was attacked and agents who were present at the interrogation room where he says he was assaulted.
The possibility of imposing a suspended sentence was dismissed because the court finds that, despite the heavy prison sentence that fulfills the defendant continued to show disrespect for the rules.
The court added that it would be "naive" to think that a "mere threat" of imprisonment contributes to the "recovery" of the defendant, who was waived today to appear in court to hear the reading of the judgment.
The contradictory statements about the attacks that were targeted were delivered between 2008 and 2009, during the trial of the inspectors who investigated the "Joana case" that resulted in the conviction of two of the five defendants in the case.
The court gave as proven assaults, though without finding the identity of the attackers.
Gonçalo Amaral, former coordinator of the Criminal Investigation Department of the PJ of Portimão, was acquitted of the crime of failure to report abuse and sentenced to a year and a half for the crime of making false allegations, were suspended for the same period.
The inspector António Nunes Cardoso was sentenced to two years and three months for forgery of document, sentence suspended for two years.
The former agents of PJ Paulo Pereira Cristovao Morgado Leonel Marques and Paulo Marques Bom, who were accused of having tortured Leonor Cipriano in interrogations conducted in Faro PJ, were acquitted.
In prison, Leonor Cipriano attends the 9th. Secondary school and still has activity as placing labels on boxes of fruit, the court said, adding that the detainee did not receive visits from friends or family.
Leonor's brother, João Cipriano, also fulfills 16 years in prison for murder and concealment of a corpse.
Re: Great News - Trial of Leonara Cipriano begins today *UPDATE* Found GUILTY of making false statements
What now for Marco Aragao Correia? Are there any possible charges?candyfloss wrote:ShuBob wrote:Excellent news!
Please can anyone confirm if Amaral's conviction has been quashed? Thanks.
Yes, great news ShuBob, I too wondered about Mr Amaral's suspended sentence, the other 3 officers have already been exonerated, so surely he should be now. Meanwhile a certain lawyer who represented her is now in Brazil we are told.
Re: Great News - Trial of Leonara Cipriano begins today *UPDATE* Found GUILTY of making false statements
russiandoll wrote:I am thinking......in the interim period between this verdict and the London Marathon, there will be another sighting.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] I wonder where, this time?
Sitting on Bransun's (sic) knee on Tower bridge on April 21st 2013 waving to Kate and Jane?
"Meanwhile a certain lawyer who represented her is now in Brazil we are told."
Better set up a 'fund' to search for and investigate any 'sightings' of the lawyer!
jeanmonroe- Posts : 5818
Activity : 7756
Likes received : 1674
Join date : 2013-02-07
Sophia Amaral's letter to KM.
To say that this is worth a read is an understatement - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Please read the whole letter- written as a reaction to Kate saying in an Expresso Interview: …as a professional and as a person his behaviour has been a disgrace."
[...]
- 5 years ago, a child named Joana "disappeared". Her mother, just like you, Mrs Kate, tried to project the case into the media, but she didn't make it any further than SIC…
Eight days later, came the confessions and the evidence: during an incestuous act between mother and uncle, the child was beaten, then dismembered and her body dumped who knows where. Mother and uncle went to jail, in a process that was coordinated by Gonçalo Amaral and which earned them almost 20 years in jail, each. But let us go a bit back in time. The child died on the 12th of September. On Christmas eve, our family was reunited for prayer, when my husband asked me to prepare a bag with some food and warm clothes, because he had not carried out his Christmas act of penance. Can you, Mrs Kate, imagine where Gonçalo Amaral went on that Christmas night under heavy rain and thunder? He went to the Olhão Prison, where João Cipriano, Joana's uncle, a confessed murderer and a clinically diagnosed psychopath, is detained. According to my husband, to simply offer an alimony to some beggar was not a sacrifice to him. The fact that he embraced and shared his Christmas meal with João Cipriano was the sacrifice that he offered to God, in memory of Joana. Is this not a disgrace? You should also know that every year, on the 12th of September, my husband has a mass celebrated in memory of Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro. He says that nobody will ever remember the poor little girl again. Right, but they remember to unjustly accuse him of actions and crimes that he never committed. Isn't this a disgrace, Mrs Kate?
unquote
Please read the whole letter- written as a reaction to Kate saying in an Expresso Interview: …as a professional and as a person his behaviour has been a disgrace."
[...]
- 5 years ago, a child named Joana "disappeared". Her mother, just like you, Mrs Kate, tried to project the case into the media, but she didn't make it any further than SIC…
Eight days later, came the confessions and the evidence: during an incestuous act between mother and uncle, the child was beaten, then dismembered and her body dumped who knows where. Mother and uncle went to jail, in a process that was coordinated by Gonçalo Amaral and which earned them almost 20 years in jail, each. But let us go a bit back in time. The child died on the 12th of September. On Christmas eve, our family was reunited for prayer, when my husband asked me to prepare a bag with some food and warm clothes, because he had not carried out his Christmas act of penance. Can you, Mrs Kate, imagine where Gonçalo Amaral went on that Christmas night under heavy rain and thunder? He went to the Olhão Prison, where João Cipriano, Joana's uncle, a confessed murderer and a clinically diagnosed psychopath, is detained. According to my husband, to simply offer an alimony to some beggar was not a sacrifice to him. The fact that he embraced and shared his Christmas meal with João Cipriano was the sacrifice that he offered to God, in memory of Joana. Is this not a disgrace? You should also know that every year, on the 12th of September, my husband has a mass celebrated in memory of Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro. He says that nobody will ever remember the poor little girl again. Right, but they remember to unjustly accuse him of actions and crimes that he never committed. Isn't this a disgrace, Mrs Kate?
unquote
____________________
Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate.
Re: Great News - Trial of Leonara Cipriano begins today *UPDATE* Found GUILTY of making false statements
tigger wrote:To say that this is worth a read is an understatement - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Please read the whole letter- written as a reaction to Kate saying in an Expresso Interview: …as a professional and as a person his behaviour has been a disgrace."
[...]
- 5 years ago, a child named Joana "disappeared". Her mother, just like you, Mrs Kate, tried to project the case into the media, but she didn't make it any further than SIC…
Eight days later, came the confessions and the evidence: during an incestuous act between mother and uncle, the child was beaten, then dismembered and her body dumped who knows where. Mother and uncle went to jail, in a process that was coordinated by Gonçalo Amaral and which earned them almost 20 years in jail, each. But let us go a bit back in time. The child died on the 12th of September. On Christmas eve, our family was reunited for prayer, when my husband asked me to prepare a bag with some food and warm clothes, because he had not carried out his Christmas act of penance. Can you, Mrs Kate, imagine where Gonçalo Amaral went on that Christmas night under heavy rain and thunder? He went to the Olhão Prison, where João Cipriano, Joana's uncle, a confessed murderer and a clinically diagnosed psychopath, is detained. According to my husband, to simply offer an alimony to some beggar was not a sacrifice to him. The fact that he embraced and shared his Christmas meal with João Cipriano was the sacrifice that he offered to God, in memory of Joana. Is this not a disgrace? You should also know that every year, on the 12th of September, my husband has a mass celebrated in memory of Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro. He says that nobody will ever remember the poor little girl again. Right, but they remember to unjustly accuse him of actions and crimes that he never committed. Isn't this a disgrace, Mrs Kate?
unquote
What an incredible letter. This earns a very high profile on the forum - is there anyway it can be flagged up?
Tigger, a great post.
Liz Eagles- Posts : 11153
Activity : 13562
Likes received : 2218
Join date : 2011-09-03
Re: Great News - Trial of Leonara Cipriano begins today *UPDATE* Found GUILTY of making false statements
There is clearly a difference between being " A Christian" and being christian.aquila wrote:On Christmas eve, our family was reunited for prayer, when my husband asked me to prepare a bag with some food and warm clothes, because he had not carried out his Christmas act of penance. Can you, Mrs Kate, imagine where Gonçalo Amaral went on that Christmas night under heavy rain and thunder? He went to the Olhão Prison, where João Cipriano, Joana's uncle, a confessed murderer and a clinically diagnosed psychopath, is detained. According to my husband, to simply offer an alimony to some beggar was not a sacrifice to him. The fact that he embraced and shared his Christmas meal with João Cipriano was the sacrifice that he offered to God, in memory of Joana.
The first involves telling the world about it.
The second carrying out the duties laid upon you by your faith.
Re: Great News - Trial of Leonara Cipriano begins today *UPDATE* Found GUILTY of making false statements
sharonl wrote:What now for Marco Aragao Correia? Are there any possible charges?candyfloss wrote:ShuBob wrote:Excellent news!
Please can anyone confirm if Amaral's conviction has been quashed? Thanks.
Yes, great news ShuBob, I too wondered about Mr Amaral's suspended sentence, the other 3 officers have already been exonerated, so surely he should be now. Meanwhile a certain lawyer who represented her is now in Brazil we are told.
This is in relation to Marco Correia, Cipriano's lawyer from 2008.......
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Guest- Guest
Re: Great News - Trial of Leonara Cipriano begins today *UPDATE* Found GUILTY of making false statements
PeterMac wrote:There is clearly a difference between being " A Christian" and being christian.aquila wrote:On Christmas eve, our family was reunited for prayer, when my husband asked me to prepare a bag with some food and warm clothes, because he had not carried out his Christmas act of penance. Can you, Mrs Kate, imagine where Gonçalo Amaral went on that Christmas night under heavy rain and thunder? He went to the Olhão Prison, where João Cipriano, Joana's uncle, a confessed murderer and a clinically diagnosed psychopath, is detained. According to my husband, to simply offer an alimony to some beggar was not a sacrifice to him. The fact that he embraced and shared his Christmas meal with João Cipriano was the sacrifice that he offered to God, in memory of Joana.
The first involves telling the world about it.
The second carrying out the duties laid upon you by your faith.
Hi PeterMac, I think you've got your quotes a bit mixed up. I didn't write this, it's Mrs. Amaral's letter.
Liz Eagles- Posts : 11153
Activity : 13562
Likes received : 2218
Join date : 2011-09-03
Re: Great News - Trial of Leonara Cipriano begins today *UPDATE* Found GUILTY of making false statements
FAO those on twitter and the abduction- believer sites who are infuriated by this latest "miscarriage of justice in the fascist state that is Portugal". You seem to have misread the report of the verdict, by quoting one line " the aggression is proven " on which to base your opinion that the torture is still accepted as fact but LC is deemed a perjurer due to not being able to identify those who harmed her.
The quote above was a reference to the court findings in 2009, not the verdict of a couple of days ago.
Here is a translation from Expresso, just to make it clear that the court does not accept the torture as proven, and conclude that she has lied about the alleged events.
Faro, 02 Apr (AP) - The Court of Faro today condemned Leonor Cipriano to seven months in prison for having made false statements in the case in which she accused five PJ inspectors of crimes of aggression and torture.
This penalty is in addition to the 16 years that the defendant complies with the murder of her daughter Joana - missing in the village of Figueira, Portimão, the September 12, 2004 - of which she has served about half.
According to the court, it was proven that Leonor Cipriano lied about how officers beat her and submitted in court different versions of events that occurred during the interrogation she underwent in 2004, after the crime.
The quote above was a reference to the court findings in 2009, not the verdict of a couple of days ago.
Here is a translation from Expresso, just to make it clear that the court does not accept the torture as proven, and conclude that she has lied about the alleged events.
Faro, 02 Apr (AP) - The Court of Faro today condemned Leonor Cipriano to seven months in prison for having made false statements in the case in which she accused five PJ inspectors of crimes of aggression and torture.
This penalty is in addition to the 16 years that the defendant complies with the murder of her daughter Joana - missing in the village of Figueira, Portimão, the September 12, 2004 - of which she has served about half.
According to the court, it was proven that Leonor Cipriano lied about how officers beat her and submitted in court different versions of events that occurred during the interrogation she underwent in 2004, after the crime.
____________________
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate,
contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
unrealistic.
~John F. Kennedy
russiandoll- Posts : 3942
Activity : 4058
Likes received : 15
Join date : 2011-09-11
Re: Great News - Trial of Leonara Cipriano begins today *UPDATE* Found GUILTY of making false statements
it was clear from the reports we were receivingfrom Portugal in 2009 that the wrong verdict was given- imo anyway.
I believe that if it had been tried in UK it would have been thrown out due to the differing version of events.
I believe that if it had been tried in UK it would have been thrown out due to the differing version of events.
plebgate- Posts : 6729
Activity : 8938
Likes received : 2123
Join date : 2013-02-01
João Cipriano refused parole McCann supporters and Child murder apologists are not going to like this !
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Bit of a crummy translation, but the message is clear.
One comment which roughly translated says, "This lot are inside. The McCanns are enjoying the money they got from their daughter's death."
"Estes foram dentro... os McCann gozam dos rendimentos que tiveram com a morte da filha."
Bit of a crummy translation, but the message is clear.
Court of Execution of Sentences believes that João Cipriano assumes the crime, victimization and it shows no empathy for the victim.
June 9, 2014, 9:49 a.m.
By: John Tavares
The Court of Execution of Sentences Lisbon rejected the application for parole of John Cipriano, currently fulfilling 16 years and eight months in prison for killing niece Joana Cipriano, eight, missing since September 12, 2004 the city of Figueira, Portimão.
The girl's body was never found, but John and sister Leonor - mother of the child - just condemned by the Court of Portimão, after a jury trial, of murder and concealment of a body of the child.
In late September 2013, the uncle of Joana fulfilled half of the sentence.
However, the court concluded that some assumptions are not met for parole: John assumes the practice of criminal acts, externalize feelings of victimization, shows no empathy for the victim, have joined and have four while inmate disciplinary sanctions. João Cipriano Carregueira serving time in the jail, in Sintra.
According to the judgment, "would be incomprehensible and counterproductive to society than someone who is responsible for the commission of such a crime as that for which the inmate was convicted benefit of parole once reached the middle of the pen."
Joan have been killed after seeing mom and uncle in incestuous act. Have been dismembered and thrown to the pigs.
In 2009 Leonor blamed his brother for the crime. He had already done the same.
One comment which roughly translated says, "This lot are inside. The McCanns are enjoying the money they got from their daughter's death."
"Estes foram dentro... os McCann gozam dos rendimentos que tiveram com a morte da filha."
Re: Great News - Trial of Leonara Cipriano begins today *UPDATE* Found GUILTY of making false statements
The words 'fair comment' come to mind, PeterM, as does the saying that ill-gotten gains don't last long.
ultimaThule- Posts : 3355
Activity : 3376
Likes received : 7
Join date : 2013-09-18
Re: Great News - Trial of Leonara Cipriano begins today *UPDATE* Found GUILTY of making false statements
Page 348 of Madeleine, Kate writes:
"Goncalo Amaral has been convicted of falsifying statements and has coordinated investigations into the disappearance of two little girls, neither of whom has been found. Why is this man being allowed a platform from which to peddle his absurd and offensive ideas? They say what goes around comes around. For Madeleine's sake, I certainly hope so."
"Goncalo Amaral has been convicted of falsifying statements and has coordinated investigations into the disappearance of two little girls, neither of whom has been found. Why is this man being allowed a platform from which to peddle his absurd and offensive ideas? They say what goes around comes around. For Madeleine's sake, I certainly hope so."
j.rob- Posts : 2243
Activity : 2511
Likes received : 266
Join date : 2014-02-02
Re: Great News - Trial of Leonara Cipriano begins today *UPDATE* Found GUILTY of making false statements
I think we all do Kate !!!j.rob wrote:Page 348 of Madeleine, Kate writes:
"Goncalo Amaral has been convicted of falsifying statements and has coordinated investigations into the disappearance of two little girls, neither of whom has been found. Why is this man being allowed a platform from which to peddle his absurd and offensive ideas? They say what goes around comes around. For Madeleine's sake, I certainly hope so."
jozi- Posts : 710
Activity : 733
Likes received : 15
Join date : 2012-05-15
Page 2 of 2 • 1, 2
Similar topics
» Phone Hacking Trial: Rebekah Brooks and Andy Coulson trial begins today:UPDATE BROOKS NOT GUILTY, COULSON GUILTY
» Gerry McCann may be witness at libel trial tomorrow - Jerry Lawton **UPDATE** TRIAL ABANDONED FOR TODAY
» THIRD murder trial of David Camm to take place in August this year. He was found GUILTY in the first two
» Did Robert Murat ever meet Clement Freud? The Sun and Daily Mail have both now apologised to Murat for making a false claim (Portugal News, 15 Dec 2016)
» Oscar Pistorius
» Gerry McCann may be witness at libel trial tomorrow - Jerry Lawton **UPDATE** TRIAL ABANDONED FOR TODAY
» THIRD murder trial of David Camm to take place in August this year. He was found GUILTY in the first two
» Did Robert Murat ever meet Clement Freud? The Sun and Daily Mail have both now apologised to Murat for making a false claim (Portugal News, 15 Dec 2016)
» Oscar Pistorius
The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ :: Other Crimes and Mysteries :: Other Fake Abductions, Hoaxes, Appeals and Crocodile Tears
Page 2 of 2
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum