The Kipper and the Corpse

Nina wrote:I have a notion that the falling to his knees was to cover up dirty trousers, so the falling to his knees would soil what was already soiled.

Very interesting. That would fit perfectly with lots of other possibilities.
Thank you

Yes very interesting observation

Nina wrote:I have a notion that the falling to his knees was to cover up dirty trousers, so the falling to his knees would soil what was already soiled.

I thought of hiding the trousers too so the buttons wouldnt show if the smiths had seen him, then I thought in that , and the soiled scenario he would have had best part of an hour to change before police arrived. All very curious. If it was some kind of stain, it would have had to be something different from say, grass, as he searched in the park, that would be normal. Just speculating.

friedtomatoes wrote:

Nina wrote:I have a notion that the falling to his knees was to cover up dirty trousers, so the falling to his knees would soil what was already soiled.

I thought of hiding the trousers too so the buttons wouldnt show if the smiths had seen him, then I thought in that , and the soiled scenario he would have had best part of an hour to change before police arrived. All very curious. If it was some kind of stain, it would have had to be something different from say, grass, as he searched in the park, that would be normal. Just speculating.

Yes this is a good theory but then surely he had to stand up again so the GNR would have seen the stain, mark etc, he couldn't have removed the mark or changed his trousers whilst in this position!!

I still think he was trying to detract from a printer finishing printing or a photocopier still taking copies perhaps, or the fact that he had just shoved one of the creche records down his trousers LOL

Still doesn't explain why they would then both do this same thing later on!! I have a headache coming on now!!

Very funny hummingbird LOL!

Agree about your trousers comment though. ETA Nina good point too.

Hummingbird wrote:

friedtomatoes wrote:

Nina wrote:I have a notion that the falling to his knees was to cover up dirty trousers, so the falling to his knees would soil what was already soiled.

I thought of hiding the trousers too so the buttons wouldnt show if the smiths had seen him, then I thought in that , and the soiled scenario he would have had best part of an hour to change before police arrived. All very curious. If it was some kind of stain, it would have had to be something different from say, grass, as he searched in the park, that would be normal. Just speculating.

Yes this is a good theory but then surely he had to stand up again so the GNR would have seen the stain, mark etc, he couldn't have removed the mark or changed his trousers whilst in this position!!

I still think he was trying to detract from a printer finishing printing or a photocopier still taking copies perhaps, or the fact that he had just shoved one of the creche records down his trousers LOL

Still doesn't explain why they would then both do this same thing later on!! I have a headache coming on now!!

Gerry most likely had already changed his trousers. In the (probably earliest) photograph there is a pair of beige trousers lying on the bed. Together with a camera I believe. The next set, probably taken the next day, doesn't show these.
My idea is that he changed into jeans the moment he came back from his walk down PdL. That walk might have been delayed by Wilkins or something else. In any case, he must have been back and changed before the police were called.
I also don't see how throwing yourself on the ground is going to deflect attention from a printer. Besides, why should a printer need to be hidden? It's the lack of the right printer that's an issue. The reception at the OC was surely entitled to have any number of printers to their name?
Even if he had stains on his trousers, these could just be from searching, crawling under bushes.
I believe that JT or/and others described what Gerry was wearing and I think they said jeans.

According to Kate's statement, where she talks about the abductor, she says he had long hair and was wearing jeans. Now the only person she could have got this from was Jane and yet it is totally different to what JT describes in her statement. Bit off topic, but it reminded me (the jeans that is) as I had read it this morning.

I go with JD that it was probably asking a question of the police. Both time it was in front of police officers and I believe was meant as a distress signal for help for those in the know that might recognise such a signal. To those that aren't in the know it just looked like a bizarre act that they didn't understand.

That seems the best fit to me.

I agree with some sort of distraction, but can not really think what - especially at reception. That is really strange. I mean really if someone still had to remove the body they would definitely not done it via reception.

I wonder if Maddie was in that blue bag in the cupboard in the bedroom. Then again the Smith sighting can't be credible. Unless blood stained towels, clothes or sheets was somewhere in the bedroom and they had to distract the GNR officer.

In reception it could have been maybe to win some time. While Kate or whoever was doing something in the apartment? Keep the GNR officer at reception to prevent him from going to the apartment.

I find all of this strange though. I can imagine losing a child that someone can roar like a bull, but heads down kneeling in that position is a bit strange.

eta: It could be a signal for someone else to do something? "As soon as we fall down and start roaring ... you have to make sure the towel is hidden". LOL not a good example, but maybe some kind of signal.

sweetex wrote:I agree with some sort of distraction, but can not really think what - especially at reception. That is really strange. I mean really if someone still had to remove the body they would definitely not done it via reception.

I wonder if Maddie was in that blue bag in the cupboard in the bedroom. Then again the Smith sighting can't be credible. Unless blood stained towels, clothes or sheets was somewhere in the bedroom and they had to distract the GNR officer.

In reception it could have been maybe to win some time. While Kate or whoever was doing something in the apartment? Keep the GNR officer at reception to prevent him from going to the apartment.

I find all of this strange though. I can imagine losing a child that someone can roar like a bull, but heads down kneeling in that position is a bit strange.

eta: It could be a signal for someone else to do something? "As soon as we fall down and start roaring ... you have to make sure the towel is hidden". LOL not a good example, but maybe some kind of signal.

I was somewhat upset at the suggestion that the corpse of Maddie was being tossed around the place whilst comical ways of diverting the GNR were being executed. Imo the body was long gone, at the latest the previous day. They'd had plenty of time to set the stage and they were in control of the crime scene.

I think it's just Gerry. Perhaps he hadn't been in the Mason's long and was only entitled to use a few 'cries for help' which is what that ritual comes under.
Another one is: 'Is there no help for the widow's son?' But he'd have to say that in Portuguese. A lot of police is 'on the square' in the UK.
Gerry is the kind of person who will take what he can get. If he was given privileges then he would use those, appropriate or not. Look at the freebies OC supplied, free food and wine and they went through 14 bottles (there's a topic on it). Look at how he managed the press - this is the original 'give him a finger and he'll take an arm' man.
They put collection boxes all over OC - they approached Beckham, other celebrities and so on.
That whole performance was just to show 'I'm a clever boy, we set the scene, call the police and when they come, they'll know I'm one of them and the whole thing is over and done.'
On the phone he kept saying to the family 'It's a disaster, a disaster.' Quite.
The timing was thrown out by Jeremy Wilkins, the shutters wouldn't open from outside, instead of seeing one or two passers-by to supply the police with an independent sighting of an abductor, he was surrounded by a whole family of nine. (could have been Amelie he carried).
Then the GNR didn't know what he was doing and Mrs. Fenn might have been watching.

Maddie can never have died that evening or her body moved that evening imo. I keep saying that they would not know if the dogs would come that night. They would also not know how much time they would have to themselves. Unlikely to be unobserved as from the moment the police arrived.

The body would have to be found. The flat cleaned, the plan made, the scene set, the Tapas instructed a hiding place for the body found. ( imo it was taken away a few days before and stored in a fridge with the help of Murat and they were not there when it was done. The GNR dogs would have found a location fairly easily the next day.)
Even if one disliked one's own child I find it impossible to think of all that if you find her dead.
Amaral had to go with what would be acceptable to their prosecution service. He may have other ideas. Pat's idea of carrying the dead child down to the beach that evening or hide her in a culvert or something is not likely either imo.
Apart from all of that, Maddie had to have died some two hours earlier to leave the cadaver odour. There was simply no time.

Stewie wrote:I go with JD that it was probably asking a question of the police. Both time it was in front of police officers and I believe was meant as a distress signal for help for those in the know that might recognise such a signal. To those that aren't in the know it just looked like a bizarre act that they didn't understand.

That seems the best fit to me.

100% agree Stewie. I just cannot go with 'distraction'. There would be far more sensible, less risky ways of distraction - hysterical mother collapsing with sheer terror etc, but 'praying Arab'? No way. Clearly a Masonic distress signal - a 'rally the troops' kind of thing that unfortunately for them the PT police didn't understand (or did they?)

I dont understand the logic in thinking the odd actions are a masonic signal!! Signal to who? this wasnt big brother live..

david_uk wrote:I dont understand the logic in thinking the odd actions are a masonic signal!! Signal to who? this wasnt big brother live..

Big brother live??? Are you feeling quite ok?
I'll explain slowly.
1)Praying arab position is a known Masonic "Help, we are in Trouble" signal
2)This was performed in front of policemen
3)Masons don't ask "Are you a Mason?"
4)They do it via symbolic gestures
5)Gerry was hoping there would be a Masonic policeman who understood the signal for help

Did you not read the statement posted up by jd? The policeman searched the whole apartment!

I don't see the 'distraction' logic myself. Why use a suspicious movement to distract? Its likely to do the opposite (which it did). Had it been Kate collapsing in grief, or punching walls then maybe.

This was a distress signal, I'd put money on it.

Tbh I have no clue about any masonic signals. I don't know what and how their rituals look like and what it entails. I for one not knowing about it, will definitely see it as a distraction, but I am sure it could be read differently by people moving in those circles.

@rainbow-fairy

I am not sure what you mean by "risky" ways of distruction. To me there is hardly any difference in terms of risk between "a histerical mother" collapsing and "praying arab".
Was it actually said "praying arab". Kneeling with heads down on the bed, could have been crying as well. Did they actually pray? I know about the GNR officer said there was no tears, but he also said "noises like crying without tears". Which to me says, they suddenly had the urge (for whatever reason) to express their fear/anger/sadness about their daughter by kneeling down and cry.

sweetex wrote:I agree with some sort of distraction, but can not really think what - especially at reception. That is really strange. I mean really if someone still had to remove the body they would definitely not done it via reception.

I wonder if Maddie was in that blue bag in the cupboard in the bedroom. Then again the Smith sighting can't be credible. Unless blood stained towels, clothes or sheets was somewhere in the bedroom and they had to distract the GNR officer.

In reception it could have been maybe to win some time. While Kate or whoever was doing something in the apartment? Keep the GNR officer at reception to prevent him from going to the apartment.

I find all of this strange though. I can imagine losing a child that someone can roar like a bull, but heads down kneeling in that position is a bit strange.

eta: It could be a signal for someone else to do something? "As soon as we fall down and start roaring ... you have to make sure the towel is hidden". LOL not a good example, but maybe some kind of signal.

The Smits noticed the 'abductor' wearing beige pants with buttons.
Gerry has/had beige pants with trousers (picture exists, somewhere on the forum)
Beige pants were photographed by the GNR on the bed in the parents bedroom
Then the Punch and Judy wailng Arabs act;
Then: no more pants (next photo, no pants, somewhere on this forum)

Could it be that the pants disappeared during the Punch and Judyshow?

BRW: Am I the only one noticing the semblance of Seabass & and Kippers?

Sorry this is going to be a long one. All night I have been thinking about this throwing one's self to the floor episode and this morning - housework on hold - I decided to do a little research.

The first thing I came across was a novel published in 2006 and recommended on Oprahs bookreading club called Fall On Your Knees by Ann-Marie MacDonald, about unescapable family bonds, terrible secrets and of miracles.
I came across this and have taken a few quotes.
'The book is difficult and disturbing''
'The author leads you with tantalising hints'
'the is a lot of discussion of Religion mostly Catholic ---- it does help to have some understanding of the Catholic Religion and Catholic schools to really be able to follow this story'

So I then decided to take a look at the Catholic thoughts on Falling to your Knees.

'The people fell on their knees and prayed in gratitude for their salvation from the flood. They fell to their knees in awe'

'The people went down on their knees and prayed. Larry went down on his knees and asked for forgiveness'

'In the Old Testament there is an appearance of God to Joshua before the taking of Jerico, Joshua sees "the Commander of the army of the Lord" and having recognised who He is throws himself on the ground'

'Jesus throws Himself to the ground - He lays his will in the will of the Father - "Not my will but Yours be done"

In the Churches Liturgy today prostration (throwing ones self to the ground) appears on two occasions on Good Friday and at ordinations - we throw ourselves down and so acknowledge where we are and who we are, fallen creatures whom only He can set on their feet'

Kneeling before another.
'Let us single out Mark 1:40 - A leper comes to Jesus and begs Him for help. He falls to his knees before him and says "If you will, can you make me clean" - what we have here is surely not a proper act of adoration but rather a supplication expressed in bodily form, while showing trust in power!'

Portugal is a Roman Catholic Country.

Heavy reading for the morning but there is certainly a lot of throwing one's self to ones knees referred to here in the Catholic Religion. Maybe GM thought that all Portugese people would recognise this act as a religious act and take 'kindly' to them, there was certainly a lot of 'visits' to a local Catholic Church after the event.

I have looked heavily into the Masonic act of throwing ones self to the floor and cannot find anything referring to it but will continue to look.

Statements from the officers:

José María Batista Roque : After the search, he noticed a situation that seemed unusual to him, when at a determined moment, the girl's parents kneeled down on the floor of their bedroom and placed their heads on the bed, crying. He did not notice any comments or expression from them, just crying. He says that at the main reception the father also knelt down, placing his head on the floor and crying. He did not hear the father say anything.

In another par: He found the parents to be nervous and anxious, he did not see any tears from either of them although they produced noises identical to crying.

Then again: He found it notable that when they were still at the main reception, the father kneeled down, laying his head on the ground and crying, at the same time as making an expression which the witness did not understand.

I could be wrong here, but it doesnt say they were praying? To me it looks Gerry and Kate either suddenly remembered they are suppose to cry and "roar like a bull" and be sad, or the distraction option.

If it was some kind of masonic signal he must have been very disappointed when nobody took notice or understood what he was trying to say.

Yes definatley praying - see my previous post on page 8!

Hummingbird wrote:Yes definatley praying - see my previous post on page 8!

@Hummingbird.

I have read your post Thanks! Maybe I am missing something, because my point is... it did not appear to the officer that they were praying, but rather they were crying. Where was it mentioned that they were praying if they made noises to the effect of crying?

Yes that is where my thoughts are going. I have read that GM was not actually a devout Catholic and perhaps even not KM before the events of 3 May. So 'what if' with all the planning that went on before, they decided that they had to 'scratch' up on their religious skills and knowledge because if they were perceived by the public after the 'abduction' to be devoutly religious then so many more people would perhaps believe their story, and of course they had also chosen a Country that is predomianty Roman Catholic and therefore would have assumed that 'everyone' there should understand the 'throwing themselves to the floor' in a prayer like manner - of course one thing they overlooked is the fact that not everyone in Portugal is a Roman Catholic and of course this throwing one's self down in a prayer like manner is 'old fashioned' It is just a thought born by looking on the internet for references to 'throwing one's self to their knees' and similar and the Catholic Religion features heavily in this practice - as well as the title of the book. Plus the fact that there are very few articles written about them that doesn't mention their religion. How many other parents of missing or murdered children have we been given a detailed account of their religious beliefs?

Sorry should have finished with WHY would you not just stand in front of the officer and break down hysterically if crying is what you want him to believe you are doing? There would be no need to 'throw yourself to the floor' to cry. Unless of course you are trying to make a loud noise to cover up another noise - and then we are off down another avenue!!

candyfloss wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Excellent work, CF!

Funny place to leave your out-doors shoes too, when you're having a night out (showered, bathed, presumably with a change of clothes)
Isn't that one of KMs canoes at the foot of the bed GM's pants are on? Why, if KM slept in Maddies room the night before, are the two beds now shoved together? Ezpecially when the nearest one hasn't been slept in (unruffled, with straight pllowcase)

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According to the GNR officers (in their third statement), Gerry knelt on the floor at the reception, crying. Matthew Oldfield describes him (Gerry) as hysterically upset.
It was the housekeeper who's described it as 'looking like an Arab at prayer".

I don't know how reliable this source is, but to me it sounds more as if they were crying than praying. Maybe it was the position (on the floor- hands in the air etc.) made her think they were doing an "Arab prayer".

I think if it was crying, it was just some fake act of them to persuade the officers of how "truly" upset they are
If it was prayer, well I agree with Hummingbird it was probably to try to impress the officers that they are devout catholics.

The GNR officer talks about an "expression" which he didn't understand. And could very well have been some kind of signal @ masonic gesture.

rainbow-fairy wrote:

david_uk wrote:I dont understand the logic in thinking the odd actions are a masonic signal!! Signal to who? this wasnt big brother live..

Big brother live??? Are you feeling quite ok?
I'll explain slowly.
1)Praying arab position is a known Masonic "Help, we are in Trouble" signal
2)This was performed in front of policemen
3)Masons don't ask "Are you a Mason?"
4)They do it via symbolic gestures
5)Gerry was hoping there would be a Masonic policeman who understood the signal for help

Did you not read the statement posted up by jd? The policeman searched the whole apartment!

I don't see the 'distraction' logic myself. Why use a suspicious movement to distract? Its likely to do the opposite (which it did). Had it been Kate collapsing in grief, or punching walls then maybe.

This was a distress signal, I'd put money on it.

Masonic cry for help? are you feeling Ok? [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

It would depend if the action stopped the officer entering the bedroom at that moment in time after he witnessed the strange praying, which we dont know for sure that they did.

Clearly we dont agree, which is fine :) . but as you like a list;

1. Distraction (to embaress officer so wouldnt enter room, hide stains or item in room etc) cant confirm what or why
2. Acting (fake show of distress) Very possible, but they are so good normally, could they have acted it out better?
3. Real ( real show of distress) We all agree its not likely?
4. Secret Masonic distress signal , on two occasions on the small chance the Portuguese GNR officer was a Mason. Surely he could of just greeted the officers on both occasions with a traditional masonic handshake first? thus not making such a going unnoticed to a non-mason just incase they found it odd. Which in this case they did find strange enough to note. Non-masons clearly
I know which one I would put my money on.......

david_uk wrote:

rainbow-fairy wrote:

david_uk wrote:I dont understand the logic in thinking the odd actions are a masonic signal!! Signal to who? this wasnt big brother live..

Big brother live??? Are you feeling quite ok?
I'll explain slowly.
1)Praying arab position is a known Masonic "Help, we are in Trouble" signal
2)This was performed in front of policemen
3)Masons don't ask "Are you a Mason?"
4)They do it via symbolic gestures
5)Gerry was hoping there would be a Masonic policeman who understood the signal for help

Did you not read the statement posted up by jd? The policeman searched the whole apartment!

I don't see the 'distraction' logic myself. Why use a suspicious movement to distract? Its likely to do the opposite (which it did). Had it been Kate collapsing in grief, or punching walls then maybe.

This was a distress signal, I'd put money on it.

Masonic cry for help? are you feeling Ok? [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

It would depend if the action stopped the officer entering the bedroom at that moment in time after he witnessed the strange praying, which we dont know for sure that they did.

Clearly we dont agree, which is fine :) . but as you like a list;

1. Distraction (to embaress officer so wouldnt enter room, hide stains or item in room etc) cant confirm what or why
2. Acting (fake show of distress) Very possible, but they are so good normally, could they have acted it out better?
3. Real ( real show of distress) We all agree its not likely?
4. Secret Masonic distress signal , on two occasions on the small chance the Portuguese GNR officer was a Mason.

I know which one I would put my money on.......

1. I don't think any trained officer would be embarrassed to enter a room just because someone had thrown themselves to the floor, more likely to enter and see what was going on in fact take more notice due to the odd act in front of him.
2. If they wanted to show distress then fainting, hysterically crying, shouting out your missing daughters name, gasping for breath among a million other acts spring to mind before throwing yourself to the floor
3. No real sign of distress - we're 5 years in and I think we can all agree that is something we have never witnessed
4. I cannot (my opinion - not suggesting you are wrong) believe that any Mason would do this act in front of anyone if his child had just been abducted

I have to go with the Catholic Religion theory and that they thought as they were in a Catholic Country then throwing themselves to their knees would be seen as a religious act.

Can you please enlighten us as to the Masonic theory and perhaps where this knowledge comes from I cannot find any reference to the Masons throwing themselves to their knees and although I am aware this is a secret society there is not a lot you can't find on the internet these days - the only references I can find to throwing one's self to their knees is Catholic and religious. (perhaps I need to contact a few friends who I know to be Masons and see if they will 'spill the beans' LOL)

To me I see no sense or logic that this was in any way a distraction. They wouldn't have called the police if there still things to hide and distract them from. But more importantly this was done in 2 separate locations so the likelihood of needing to distract the police in 2 locations is highly unlikely. Plus kate mccann was not in the first location, but in the bedroom she knew exactly what to do, so this is something they both knew what they were doing beforehand

I think it is most likely a masonic call for help, and the expression gerry mccann gave to the officer gives this away....asking the question if the officer 'understood' this cry for help. It makes sense if at the start to know if they had someone who knew this cry for help and would help them in this regard. We have all seen the unprecedented powerful help the mccanns have had since day 1 so makes sense that they mix in these circles to start with, and if these police officers lived in the same world as them so to speak

However, the religious aspect is interesting that has value and I can see real logic in this too. One of the strange things on the night & one of the first things they did was asking for a priest (whom 2 days later gave them the keys to the church). It seems they kept asking for a priest & even phoned one back in the UK (Seddon). To me the religious aspect was on their minds already and would fit in with falling on their knees trying to pray call of help. They didn't really understand what they were doing from a religious point of view imo but trying to come across as devout Catholics and the seeds of this were forming as this is the road since that they have taken. Neither of them were in reality religious at the time, gerry mccann was not at all from what I can gather and kate mccann only mildly..But since this day it all changed and they have been selling themselves as devout catholics even though they went to an Anglican priest at the time, but this is another story