Re: ***LIVE*** Discussion and comments thread BBC Panorama tonight 25th April 7.30pm

[Smokeandmirrors]

@Trigger, Lady-Heather and Smokeandmirrors. Do you guy's/girl's have an idea what this thing/person is that is being protected that is a national security matter?

I have read of various theories over the years but if this was about a much bigger "thing", why hasn't Amaral said anything about it? (though I could have missed the hints! )

I cannot speak for Lady Heather and Trigger, but no, I don't think I can say exactly what lies at the hub of this seemingly huge circle of influential people that have come together, and all the very peculiar co-incidences that have been raised from the files and general discussions. Nor can I say one way or other at this stage whether I believe this review will be a whitewash or whether all the weird stuff is seriously being looked at by the review. Also mindful of not being libellous, in the absence of cold hard facts, but having seen the translated files and all the other stuff for the last five years, it is just a feeling, a speculation. It's big whatever it is and IF someone VERY influential has something to hide, you can bet it'll be just about the worst thing possible. Thieving/expenses fiddle type scandal where a couple of MP's can be jailed and forgotten about it would by very small fry by comparison IMO.

But it feels as though what is a fairly trivial story has been right up there for 5 years, against all odds and logic. I mean, we've already forgotten Lisa Irwin in the US , who apparently disappeared under pretty much the same circumstances, it's already fallen off the radar.

One could look at related factors in other situations, unrelated to this case, and realise how high up people are never called to account. For example, IIRC, Dan Quail has a huge building firm (if it's not him it was someone very high up in US politics at time of 9/11). When America, and lamentably the UK destroyed Bagdad in that hideous airstrike, whose company subsequently pitched for the re-building contract worth billions? An American politician.
Since leaving public office Tony Blair has a personal interest in at least two Iraqi oil companies and has made millions.
The dodgy dossier / David Kelly's death all got brushed under the carpet.
The Arms industry was at it's lowest turnover since the peak of the cold war, now it has spiked right back up there to the tune of hundreds of billions of pounds.
All the above is an international outrage, but they all just carry on as if they are perfectly entitled to flatten a small nation, send innocent people to their deaths, for a bit of the filthy lucre, and other nations stand by and do nothing, probably for a cut. And apart from a few vocal conspiracy theorists and aggrieved political opponents, 99% don't give it a second thought.

A small matter of a child going AWOL in PdL has certainly ruffled the feathers of more than just a few well wishers, it's a nano-story really considering what goes on in the world daily, from thousands of children dying from AIDS and starvation every week in Africa, the drug wars of Mexico, to the outrage of hundreds of elderly people being killed in our NHS because they are not even given enough water to drink. Something has kept the press hooked on this, something about the case is special, has wider implications, I just don't know what. Little is truly done by the press to keep really important stories going, things that really matter to the nation, but one little child, who is irrelevant to the world outside of her family has become a global icon, and millions of pounds in legal fees ensures no-one can ask the parents direct and awkward questions. On the surface of it they look like a pair of nobody's so why do the politicians, press and Leveson give a rats @rse how they feel? They don't give a stuff about the rest of us!

[tigger]

Great post SmokeandMirrors, if you can still edit - can you make it clear which part is your reply? I got it but...

[Smokeandmirrors]

Hi, my post starts straight under the "Duh" smiley, I seem to have written my entire post inside a quotation box and cannot edit it, so another "duh" is required LOL.

Just wanted to add, to my previously long ramblings, that it is absolutely so utterly and completely frustrating that so many people can see something is deeply wrong not only with this case, but generally with the powers wielded over us mere mortals, but to be powerless to actually nail it and take direct action. We all know we are being mugged off in various ways daily, even in every day things like the price of food and fuel accelerating at a faster rate that any rises in our household income, so year on year they are making ordinary people poorer. New legislation is being created at an alarming rate to decrease our freedoms and rights, we are being spied on even through supermarket checkouts, being emotionally blackmailed into mass vaccinations of our babies, captured on camera everywhere - they are just treating us like a load of cattle to be controlled and herded around.

Tony Bennetts forthcoming case to me represents clearly a demonstration how one person can be persecuted for holding and expressing an opinion, whilst others who have made as yet unsupportable claims to the contrary and taken vast amounts of money based on that premise,
are trotted around the place and treated as celebrities. The scales of Justice have been truly mangled and kicked to the curb. It's indicative that there is no justice left in the UK.

[ufercoffy]

Someone says that "Cops don't hang one of their own". Which is the position the SY is now.

If the SY try to cover up this crime some cops will be 'hanged' - Mark Harrison, Lee Rainbow, Martin Grime for instance.

[Spaniel]

@Trigger, Lady-Heather and Smokeandmirrors. Do you guy's/girl's have an idea what this thing/person is that is being protected that is a national security matter?

I have read of various theories over the years but if this was about a much bigger "thing", why hasn't Amaral said anything about it? (though I could have missed the hints! [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] )

Hi TheTruthWillOut.
I have intimated several times what I believe the cover-up stems from. Gonçalo has made passing references I believe, however his ex-wife was much more emphatic. Do you recall when she said "We would not invite *persons of that persuasion* into our circle of friends".

Another hint - Gaspar statements, and Team McCanns very early insistence MBM had been 'taken by a paedophile'.
Its the only thing I can think of so heinous that the public would not forgive (after all, many seem to have forgiven if not outright condoned the 'neglect' (which I don't believe happened, personally)

Whether we believe the "neglect" or not, it has certainly worked for them. Whenever comments are allowed in the press or general forums, posters spend so much time arguing about the kids being left alone that they miss anything else about the case.

[Smokeandmirrors]

Spot on Spaniel. One cannot help but wonder if this was the intention, and that it is working like a charm!

[tigger]

@Trigger, Lady-Heather and Smokeandmirrors. Do you guy's/girl's have an idea what this thing/person is that is being protected that is a national security matter?

I have read of various theories over the years but if this was about a much bigger "thing", why hasn't Amaral said anything about it? (though I could have missed the hints! )

Ooooh, bit woosy now am I, 'jection tooth must be.
protection blackmail same in my book 'jection must be
mirror has two sides which side you look, 'ouch jection must be
Young was I so long ago but even though 'jection must be
I remember your meaningless now famous face, and call my favours......

Can't believe I said that, jection must be....

Monkeymind! Whatever you're on - we'd like some too!
Here's my contribution which was my first thought on seeing AR 's soundbite on the 24th.

From 'The hunting of the Snark' by Lewis Carroll

The Bellman himself they all praised to the skies --
Such a carriage, such ease and such grace!
Such solemnity, too! One could see he was wise,
The moment one looked in his face!


He had bought a large map representing the sea,
Without the least vestige of land:
And the crew were much pleased when they found it to be
A map they could all understand.


"What's the good of Mercator's North Poles and Equators,
Tropics, Zones, and Meridian Lines?"
So the Bellman would cry: and the crew would reply
"They are merely conventional signs!

"Other maps are such shapes, with their islands and capes!
But we've got our brave Captain to thank:"
(So the crew would protest) "that he's bought us the best --
A perfect and absolute blank!"


And - TheTruthwillout: my basic idea is: the matter of national security which is being protected by humouring the McCanns - IMO it's just likely to be one person - and once exposed, the knowledge can not be used for other purposes. It must be like having money in the bank for those in the know.
Why empty your bank account only to expose the McCanns?

[Miraflores]

Just wanted to add, to my previously long ramblings, that it is
absolutely so utterly and completely frustrating that so many people can
see something is deeply wrong not only with this case, .......

I have to agree - comments sections of newspapers, social networks etc. etc.. A large number of people express doubts (before the comments get whooshed that is) and they can't all be members of this forum, so it's not just a few people e.g us, over and over again, expressing doubt.

Personally, I think the McCann spin has been overdone this time. I was commenting on one of these threads about stuff getting whooshed by mumsnet, if it didn't follow the official story. One comment, (before it got whooshed!) was particularly pertinent - the person said, that she had never thought much about this case other than 'how sad for all involved' until she started to see all the comments being removed,thought it was OTT and realised there was something wrong there. Own goal to the McCanns.

Similarly it was on OTT comment which made me follow the case and brought me to this forum. I was called a vile McCann hater for saying that we didn't know what happened, we only have the parents' word for it that there was an abduction. Such an overreaction, I thought, hardly 'vile' - there must be something fishy.

[aiyoyo]

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Analysis and opinion of another Criminal Profiler.

[Spaniel]

rainbow-fairy wrote:
Basically, conspiracy theories only abound when the 'official line' doesn't fit the evidence, the facts or what we know.
No conspiracy with Sarah Payne, Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman, etc etc.
There is with this case through the lies, the inconsistencies and the PR spin

rainbow -fairy, there is loads on the net regarding whether Ian Huntley was fitted up. How he was taken to Rampton for assessment before the trial and came out drugged to the eyeballs, a shambling wreck. google "is ian huntley guilty"

[tigger]

rainbow-fairy wrote:
Basically, conspiracy theories only abound when the 'official line' doesn't fit the evidence, the facts or what we know.
No conspiracy with Sarah Payne, Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman, etc etc.
There is with this case through the lies, the inconsistencies and the PR spin

rainbow -fairy, there is loads on the net regarding whether Ian Huntley was fitted up. How he was taken to Rampton for assessment before the trial and came out drugged to the eyeballs, a shambling wreck. google "is ian huntley guilty"

I really don't believe that. For a start, he led them to the place where they were buried. Parts of their clothes were recovered from the school's incinerator and as far as forensic linguistics go, he actually told us he was the last person to see them. The car was cleaned and I believe the carpets were replaced in the boot? No way was he fitted up.
In both the Bamber case and the Soham case, there was plenty of time to hide the evidence and clean up. In both cases it was days before the police started to look that way.
Both cases were exceptional and initially handled by police totally inexperienced in this type of crime.
If they hadn't had an eyewitness to the Brady and Hindley murders, we might still not know anything about the moor murderers.
These cases also involved children. Remember how many sightings there were of the Soham girls? How many people had seen them - two blond girls.
Clarrie learned all he needed to know on the Soham case and applied it in spades in the McCann mystery.

[Spaniel]

rainbow-fairy wrote:
Basically, conspiracy theories only abound when the 'official line' doesn't fit the evidence, the facts or what we know.
No conspiracy with Sarah Payne, Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman, etc etc.
There is with this case through the lies, the inconsistencies and the PR spin

rainbow -fairy, there is loads on the net regarding whether Ian Huntley was fitted up. How he was taken to Rampton for assessment before the trial and came out drugged to the eyeballs, a shambling wreck. google "is ian huntley guilty"

I really don't believe that. For a start, he led them to the place where they were buried. Parts of their clothes were recovered from the school's incinerator and as far as forensic linguistics go, he actually told us he was the last person to see them. The car was cleaned and I believe the carpets were replaced in the boot? No way was he fitted up.
In both the Bamber case and the Soham case, there was plenty of time to hide the evidence and clean up. In both cases it was days before the police started to look that way.
Both cases were exceptional and initially handled by police totally inexperienced in this type of crime.
If they hadn't had an eyewitness to the Brady and Hindley murders, we might still not know anything about the moor murderers.
These cases also involved children. Remember how many sightings there were of the Soham girls? How many people had seen them - two blond girls.
Clarrie learned all he needed to know on the Soham case and applied it in spades in the McCann mystery.

I'm not saying I believe it tigger, just that conspiracy theories do exist.

[tigger]

Spaniel wrote:

I'm not saying I believe it tigger, just that conspiracy theories do exist. unquote
sorry, Got it wrong - just Huntley! yuk.

[rainbow-fairy]

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Analysis and opinion of another Criminal Profiler.

Good find aiyoyo. Can't wait for part two - logical, well thought out and well-explained.
Doesn't sound like she is dancing to the McCanns tune either...

[Tony Bennett]

Tony Bennett's forthcoming case to me represents clearly a demonstration of how one person can be persecuted for holding and expressing an opinion, whilst others who have made as yet unsupportable claims to the contrary and taken vast amounts of money based on that premise,
are trotted around the place and treated as celebrities...

In this context, the stand that Emile Zola made on behalf of the innocent Jew, Alfred Dreyfus, who was falsely convicted and transported to Devil's Island, is of interest. This is an extract from the Wikipedia article on Emile Zola:

The Dreyfus affair


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Front page cover of the newspaper L’Aurore for Thursday 13 January 1898, with the letter J’Accuse...!, written by Émile Zola about the Dreyfus affair. The headline reads "I accuse...! Letter to the President of the Republic".


Main articles: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Dreyfus affair and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


Captain Alfred Dreyfus was a Jewish artillery officer in the French army. When the French intelligence found information about someone giving the German embassy military secrets, anti-semitism seems to have caused senior officers to suspect Dreyfus, though there was no direct evidence of any wrongdoing. Dreyfus was court-martialled, convicted of treason and sent to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].

Lt. Col. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] came across evidence that implicated another officer, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and informed his superiors. Rather than move to clear Dreyfus, the decision was made to protect Esterhazy and ensure the original verdict was not overturned. Major [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] forged documents that made it seem that Dreyfus was guilty and then had Picquart assigned to duty in Africa. Before leaving, Picquart told some of Dreyfus's supporters what he knew. Soon Senator August Scheurer-Kestner took up the case and announced in the Senate that Dreyfus was innocent and accused Esterhazy. The right-wing government refused new evidence to be allowed and Esterhazy was tried and acquitted. Picquart was then sentenced to 60 days in prison.

Émile Zola risked his career and more on 13 January 1898, when his "J'accuse",^{[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]} was published on the front page of the Paris daily [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. The newspaper was run by Ernest Vaughan and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], who decided that the controversial story would be in the form of an [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] to the President, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. Émile Zola's "J'Accuse" accused the highest levels of the French Army of obstruction of justice and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] by having wrongfully convicted Alfred Dreyfus to life imprisonment on Devil's Island. Zola's intention was that he be prosecuted for libel so that the new evidence in support of Dreyfus would be made public.^{[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]} The case, known as the Dreyfus affair, divided France deeply between the reactionary army and church and the more liberal commercial society. The ramifications continued for many years; on the 100th anniversary of Zola's article, France's [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] daily paper, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], apologized for its [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] editorials during the Dreyfus Affair. As Zola was a leading French thinker, his letter formed a major turning-point in the affair.

Zola was brought to trial for criminal libel on 7 February 1898 and was convicted on 23 February and removed from the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. Rather than go to jail, Zola fled to England. Without even having had the time to pack a few clothes, he arrived at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] on 19 July. After his brief and unhappy residence in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], from October 1898 to June 1899, he was allowed to return in time to see the government fall.

The government offered Dreyfus a pardon (rather than exoneration), which he could accept and go free and so admit that he was guilty or face a re-trial in which he was sure to be convicted again. Although he was clearly not guilty, he chose to accept the pardon. Emile Zola said, "The truth is on the march, and nothing shall stop it."^{[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]} In 1906, Dreyfus was completely exonerated by the Supreme Court.

The 1898 article by Émile Zola is widely marked in France as the most prominent manifestation of the new power of the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (writers, artists, academicians) in shaping [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], the media and the state.

[Smokeandmirrors]

What an interesting piece, I shall look into this more. And hijack a quote or two!!

I have faith that truth IS on the march here, and I have no doubt in my mind that your defence in the up comings is going to be very comprehensive and interesting, and it will be good if it gets widely reported. I think we know to expect an enormous amount of pomposity from C-R, but I hope the Judge is fair and give you ample opportunity to air your side, and also that the character Gunnill is called to account too. Hopefully recent tripe issued about childless fiends stalking the McCanns, the slating of the PJ etc has not escaped the Judges notice, and hopefully will see what you are up against and be open minded.

[jd]

There is very good news from the Digital Spy Forum which I'll let Hi De Ho post about Their eyes have been opened and they are now discussing the scam. Reading through the posts the general public have at last realised that dogs do not lie and all cavader/blood was only found on items only exclusively belonging to the mccanns...You cannot dismiss this ever

[Spaniel]

There is very good news from the Digital Spy Forum which I'll let Hi De Ho post about [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Their eyes have been opened and they are now discussing the scam. Reading through the posts the general public have at last realised that dogs do not lie and all cavader/blood was only found on items only exclusively belonging to the mccanns...You cannot dismiss this ever

I'm suprised it's survived, normally the first mention and whoosh! There was a poster trying to bring it down by keep mentioning keywords. DS is an important platform as it has a huge following.

[TheTruthWillOut]

Thanks to all that replied to my question from earlier in the thread. We all seem to agree something big/bad/shocking is going on.

This quote from Tony's post says it all to me:

The truth is on the march, and nothing shall stop it.

[Zozo]

Someone says that "Cops don't hang one of their own". Which is the position the SY is now.

If the SY try to cover up this crime some cops will be 'hanged' - Mark Harrison, Lee Rainbow, Martin Grime for instance.

I get your point, but what do you think about that SY review the direction is taking?
Is it genuine or a whitewash/cover up is on the way?

[jd]

DS is an important platform as it has a huge following.

Exactly!

[ufercoffy]

Someone says that "Cops don't hang one of their own". Which is the position the SY is now.

If the SY try to cover up this crime some cops will be 'hanged' - Mark Harrison, Lee Rainbow, Martin Grime for instance.

I get your point, but what do you think about that SY review the direction is taking?
Is it genuine or a whitewash/cover up is on the way?

If both sides wanted to cover up this case they could have done it 4 years ago when the case was shelved. The SY know all about Goncalo Amaral and his take on things, which were based on findings by the UK police. I don't think Amaral will allow a cover up because he has a platform to voice his opinion - he's not censored in Portugal like he is in the UK. He says "Justice works in silence" and I have faith in him that he will be the one to get justice for Madeleine. He has also said that people will pay for what they've done to him then he will tell the rest.

Keep the faith in Goncalo.

[russiandoll]

I tend to think that if a cover up was ordered from on high they would have got a much slicker PR person, a smoother operator than DCI Redwood. That guy is an investigator, why he was not comfortable doing the rounds of the media and it showed in his body language and speech.
Do we know who approached whom? I guessed the media made the overtures to SY due to the approaching anniversary.

[tigger]

I tend to think that if a cover up was ordered from on high they would have got a much slicker PR person, a smoother operator than DCI Redwood. That guy is an investigator, why he was not comfortable doing the rounds of the media and it showed in his body language and speech.
Do we know who approached whom? I guessed the media made the overtures to SY due to the approaching anniversary.

But the whole thing was damage limitation, not full cover up. Because the plan, such as it was, was really, really bad.
The damage limitation was going on, and still is imo, whilst the normal procedures had to be followed. There was no choice, the FO et al could not tell the PJ how to run an investigation. They could only hope to stop leaks and keep the media onside. Which is exactly what they're still doing. Meanwhile it's also useful for burying bad news, looking good for the believers and thus gaining votes.

The other reason I posted a few pages back. Why expose the origin of the cover up when it's so useful to know this 'secret'. Like money in the bank - once you've exposed the scam, your bank account is empty.

[Trigger1985]

[quote="tuom"]

from John Blacksmith, The Blacksmith Bureau - good read......

Saturday, 28 April 2012

Benny Hill's Alive Too

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Brilliant, as usual. Someone asked if I pulled the fastest milk cart in the west, and here Mr Blackmith is saying Ernie is still alive. Har.

My Trigger was Del Boys old mucker, so to avoid confusion with tigger I am quite happy for a name change to Del Boy.


I will move the links ASAP but am having computer gremlins.

[tigger]

[quote="Trigger"]

from John Blacksmith, The Blacksmith Bureau - good read......

Saturday, 28 April 2012

Benny Hill's Alive Too

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Brilliant, as usual. Someone asked if I pulled the fastest milk cart in the west, and here Mr Blackmith is saying Ernie is still alive. Har.

My Trigger was Del Boys old mucker, so to avoid confusion with tigger I am quite happy for a name change to Del Boy.


I will move the links ASAP but am having computer gremlins.

That's nice of you Trigger, I didn't ask for it by the way, but it is confusing. I just PM'd Candyfloss, offering to change mine.
Delboy - I've always compared Gerry to him. Except, as I pointed out, Delboy had morals.

[Trigger1985]

Hi, my post starts straight under the "Duh" smiley, I seem to have written my entire post inside a quotation box and cannot edit it, so another "duh" is required LOL.

Just wanted to add, to my previously long ramblings, that it is absolutely so utterly and completely frustrating that so many people can see something is deeply wrong not only with this case, but generally with the powers wielded over us mere mortals, but to be powerless to actually nail it and take direct action. We all know we are being mugged off in various ways daily, even in every day things like the price of food and fuel accelerating at a faster rate that any rises in our household income, so year on year they are making ordinary people poorer. New legislation is being created at an alarming rate to decrease our freedoms and rights, we are being spied on even through supermarket checkouts, being emotionally blackmailed into mass vaccinations of our babies, captured on camera everywhere - they are just treating us like a load of cattle to be controlled and herded around.

Tony Bennetts forthcoming case to me represents clearly a demonstration how one person can be persecuted for holding and expressing an opinion, whilst others who have made as yet unsupportable claims to the contrary and taken vast amounts of money based on that premise,
are trotted around the place and treated as celebrities. The scales of Justice have been truly mangled and kicked to the curb. It's indicative that there is no justice left in the UK.

I could not agree more with everything you said. We may not be able to stop wars lining the pockets of the corrupt über rich, but we have a good chance of getting justice in this case, despite the embarrassment of Mr Redwood's antics. I don't think he's playing a blinder, I'm rather afraid his Columbo act is real. This Yard Columbo should have kept his lips zipped, it is just not done to make such ludicrous comments only a quarter of the way through the evidence phase. As tigger pointed out, they are moving like sloths through treacle. Mr Amaral IMO is the man who will get the job done and get certain individuals a very long stretch in gaol.

[Trigger1985]

Someone says that "Cops don't hang one of their own". Which is the position the SY is now.

If the SY try to cover up this crime some cops will be 'hanged' - Mark Harrison, Lee Rainbow, Martin Grime for instance.

I agree, if things get too hot then one or two patsies will be arranged. It can't be anyone truly in on the big secrets though, that would be far too dangerous. I am waiting for a Dr Kelly moment for one or more of those involved, I would imagine several of the not so psychopathic are on the way to cracking. They will all be under constant surveillance by MI5's "watchers"...

[Trigger1985]

Sorry, don't know how my comments arrived in the middle of another message,

[Zozo]

@ ufercoffy

Of course i understand that SY knows well about Gonzalo A and his theory based on UK police findings.
Did SY leaving all the possibility of investigation line open including death of Madeleine for their review? To my view is not. if not why?

Why do you think if the cover up wasn't done 4 years ago, it could not be done now? Indeed to my opinion it has started 4 years ago, for example the time the UK police refused to provide to their colleagues portuguese, the credit cards transactions of the Mccanns the time they were in holiday; or those dogs findings which samples from the Mcanns car and house was sent into the UK forensics lab, to return back saying their were inconclusive. To my opinions, there's high suspicions their were manipulated just to protect the Mccanns.

When you say :"If the SY try to cover up this crime some cops will be 'hanged' - Mark Harrison, Lee Rainbow, Martin Grime for instance."
I don't agree with that. As long as they keep their mouth shut, and don't dare talk about what their expertise analysis have shown, which seems SY doesn't want to look at, they won't attract trouble to themself.
I 've heard that Martin Grime has been ordered not to comment on the case. I can not certify that is true, but if its revealed that is true, its likely to be the same for others also.