Let me help you Gerry: DAVID PAYNE may hold the key to the mystery

tigger wrote:

suep wrote:Clay, as I'm new around here it was only around 2 weeks ago I read all those statements and I'm sure Petermac is right about it being Russell not David Payne ...thing is I don't recall reading a rogatory interview with David Payne at all. Did he do one ? I'll have to revisit them and check.
Hope you enjoyed your footie by the way!

It's worth reading the Payne rogatory, you'll find it on McCannfiles.com.  It's  long enough to  keep you you amused over the holidays. i'd love to see your take on it as new members often have new insights.
Don't, however use the topic here 'Paynes rogatories light' which were posted  by a troll imo (since banned) and which leave out essential points. Unfortunately it's one of their methods.

I believe the delay in lifting their arguido status was due to negotiations with the Portuguese on their  behalf by the Home Office in order to prevent  the files from being published.

It seems that changing Portuguese law wasn't in the power of the not so honourable Jaqui Smith.
TM did what they could to lessen the blow, selecting a mere two thousand or so sightings to stress the deficiencies of the PJ.

Thanks tigger, I'll read Payne's rogatory later on today if I get the time. I've just been distracted from it for the moment by the question of the alleged unreliability of cadaver dogs. Since I've got access to a database of research articles through the uni where I work I've been searching that for all the research which Gerry said existed that proves his point. Sadly, I've found nothing at all...in fact all the published papers I can find say exactly the opposite.Did Gerry ever cite any of the research he was relying on?( I know he mentioned a criminal case in the US where the dog later turned out to be right, but that's not research). He's published academic research himself so he should be well aware how foolish it is to make a claim like that without being able to back it up.

Gerry quoted the Zapata case - it was mentioned recently on the forum.
Shot himself in the foot as it turned out the judge was wrong and the dogs were right. If you google Zapata and McCann you might find it. iPad makes it hard to copy/paste...

suep wrote:Clay, as I'm new around here it was only around 2 weeks ago I read all those statements and I'm sure Petermac is right about it being Russell not David Payne ...thing is I don't recall reading a rogatory interview with David Payne at all. Did he do one ? I'll have to revisit them and check.
Hope you enjoyed your footie by the way!

Hi, apologies for the delay, I keep forgetting about this thread way down here in this section. Anyway I see Tigger has since got you up to speed.

Football proved to be less bruising than trying to "defend" (well, in a manner of speaking) Rickwood yesterday.

suep wrote:
Thanks tigger, I'll read Payne's rogatory later on today if I get the time. I've just been distracted from it for the moment by the question of the alleged unreliability of cadaver dogs. Since I've got access to a database of research articles through the uni where I work I've been searching that for all the research which Gerry said existed that proves his point. Sadly, I've found nothing at all...in fact all the published papers I can find say exactly the opposite.Did Gerry ever cite any of the research he was relying on?( I know he mentioned a criminal case in the US where the dog later turned out to be right, but that's not research). He's published academic research himself so he should be well aware how foolish it is to make a claim like that without being able to back it up.

Gerry's research seemed to extend to finding almost spurious ways to undermine the dog's findings and then incorporating them into his account of events - hence the almost cringe-makingly unbelievable "sea bass and dirty nappies" claims.

aquila wrote:

ultimaThule wrote: < snip >
On a point of information, the first rogatory statement given by Russell O'Brien was not transcribed because the recording equipment malfunctioned.

That in itself is odd ultimaThule. I wonder if it had malfunctioned before?

By way of clarification, it wasn't simply Russell O'Brien first rogatory statement which wasn't recorded because the equipment failed to function; all of the 5 sessions held between 9.55am and 8.18pm on 8 April 2008 which comprised his first rogatory statement were lost to posterity - and to the PJ.

O'Brien attended Enderby police station again on 10 April 2008 and the transcript of his second rogatory statement can be seen here [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

It would appear that no problems were encountered with the recording equipment when the other 6 members of the Tapas 7, including David Payne, gave their rogatory statements to Leicestershire police.

Clay Regazzoni wrote:

suep wrote:
Thanks tigger, I'll read Payne's rogatory later on today if I get the time. I've just been distracted from it for the moment by the question of the alleged unreliability of cadaver dogs. Since I've got access to a database of research articles through the uni where I work I've been searching that for all the research which Gerry said existed that proves his point. Sadly, I've found nothing at all...in fact all the published papers I can find say exactly the opposite.Did Gerry ever cite any of the research he was relying on?( I know he mentioned a criminal case in the US where the dog later turned out to be right, but that's not research). He's published academic research himself so he should be well aware how foolish it is to make a claim like that without being able to back it up.

Gerry's research seemed to extend to finding almost spurious ways to undermine the dog's findings and then incorporating them into his account of events - hence the almost cringe-makingly unbelievable "sea bass and dirty nappies" claims.

Cringe-making is the right word exactly! No self-respecting scientist would risk their reputation the way he did with those ridiculous claims...unless they were desperate of course. BTW I read your 'defence' of Rickwood and I tend to agree with what you said. I should have commented yesterday to give you some moral support but things got a bit busy here...so apologies for that.

suep wrote:

Clay Regazzoni wrote:

suep wrote:
Thanks tigger, I'll read Payne's rogatory later on today if I get the time. I've just been distracted from it for the moment by the question of the alleged unreliability of cadaver dogs. Since I've got access to a database of research articles through the uni where I work I've been searching that for all the research which Gerry said existed that proves his point. Sadly, I've found nothing at all...in fact all the published papers I can find say exactly the opposite.Did Gerry ever cite any of the research he was relying on?( I know he mentioned a criminal case in the US where the dog later turned out to be right, but that's not research). He's published academic research himself so he should be well aware how foolish it is to make a claim like that without being able to back it up.

Gerry's research seemed to extend to finding almost spurious ways to undermine the dog's findings and then incorporating them into his account of events - hence the almost cringe-makingly unbelievable "sea bass and dirty nappies" claims.

Cringe-making is the right word exactly! No self-respecting scientist would risk their reputation the way he did with those ridiculous claims...unless they were desperate of course. BTW I read your 'defence' of Rickwood and I tend to agree with what you said.  I should have commented yesterday to give you some moral support but things got a bit busy here...so apologies for that.

That's really sweet of you, have a lovely Christmas, you too Clay!

(Btw.ROB was allowed to take a crib sheet in with him, I wonder if Payne had one or whether he had the odd prompt written on his wrists.).  

Just copying this here from the topic Official Madeleine site etc.
Re: Official Find Madeleine - missing shop and contacts
sallypelt on Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:54 pm

It looks as if David and Fiona Payne do not want to miss out on a piece of the action, because on the 12th of November 2013, the husband and wife duo set up their own business. The DP UROLOGY SERVICES LIMITED has just the two directors; David Payne and Fiona Payne
Unquote

I find the timing interesting. Nothing wrong with setting up this Ltd. Co. but it might also help if the McCann case should move into the next phase.
Safeguarding finances.

tigger wrote:Just copying this here from the topic Official Madeleine site etc.
Re: Official Find Madeleine - missing shop and contacts
 sallypelt on Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:54 pm

It looks as if David and Fiona Payne do not want to miss out on a piece of the action, because on the 12th of November 2013, the husband and wife duo set up their own business. The DP UROLOGY SERVICES LIMITED has just the two directors; David Payne and Fiona Payne
Unquote

I find the timing interesting. Nothing wrong with setting up this Ltd. Co. but it might also help if  the McCann case should move into  the next phase.
Safeguarding finances.

My thoughts, exactly, Tigger.  Plan B mechanisms put in place, if Plan A goes down the tubes.

Edited to add that I don't think it's about safeguarding assets, but more about needing another position, if the "rumours" turn out to be true. The NHS will HAVE to act if this proves to be the case.

Bumping this up as it's come up in other topics. This is from the link earlier in this topic.

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3 June 2008 | Posted by [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]



WITNESSES CAME TO THE ALGARVE TO REINFORCE TESTIMONY THAT CONTRADICTS THE MCCANNS

Friends are the PJ trumps

In a secret visit to Portugal, three persons who had dinner at the Tapas Bar shattered the McCanns and Jane Tanner versions

Fiona Payne, her mother Dianne Webster, and the husband David Payne. Are the main trumps of the Public Ministry that will lead the parents of Madeleine McCann, the missing girl, on the 3rd of May of 2007, from an apartment in Praia da Luz, Algarve, to be accused of the crimes of exposition and abandonment since they left the girl alone in that critical night. It is a crime that is punishable up to ten years of prison and allows the respective preventive arrests, like 24horas announced last week.

These three witnesses returned to Portugal, on the 11th of July of 2007, in a travel paid by the Portuguese State, and where accommodated in a hotel unity of Portimão. They were still questioned by Gonçalo Amaral’s team, the superior coordinator who was removed from the case, and they contradicted the McCann’s version regarding to what went on in the night of the disappearance.

Remember that Kate, Gerry and the other two couples with whom they had dinner, assured that they were taking turns in the vigilance to the children. A fact that was contradicted to the authorities in the above-mentioned secret travel by Fiona Payne and that had already been put in question in two previous statements, given on the days that followed to Maddie's disappearance, by her mother and her husband.

Jane Tanner Contradicted

“ Fiona Payne gave three statements to the authorities, as well as Matthew Oldfield and his companion, Rachel. Dianne Webster statement [Fiona's mother] was very solid and there was not need of questioning her again”, revealed to 24horas a judicial person in charge connected with the process. In accordance to the same source, “other persons who had dinner with the McCanns - Jane Tanner, her companion, Russell O'Brien, Matthew Oldfield and his wife, Rachel – gave contradictory statements”. And the judicial person in charge exemplifies: "”Jane Tanner always said that she went out from the restaurant to see her oldest daughter. Fiona, David and Dianne guaranteed to the PJ that she never left the restaurant before the alarm was given by Kate. This information was corroborated by several workers of the Tapas Bar restaurant”. These witnesses also stated that Gerry McCann did not even go to check on the children, when he went away of the restaurant, and that he only stayed at the apartment of Praia da Luz entrance.

The only person who stayed in Tapas Bar

Dianne Webster, of 63 years old, mother of Fiona Payne (36 years), was one of three persons who were available to return to Portugal and to help the authorities in the reconstitution of the facts taken place to the 3rd of May of 2007.
She was the only one that was quiet and calm when Kate McCann entered in the Tapas Bar shouting “they’ve taken her!”. The authorities were suspicious of her attitude and she told them that she did not believe in the version of the McCanns. She also pointed out to the PJ that each couple was responsible for their own children and that no one entered in the apartment of the friends[in each other’s apartments].

Facts
SECRET. The McCann organized a "secret" dinner with all the friends with whom they had dinner with at the Tapas, in the Praia da Luz, Algarve, before the rogatory letters sent for England were carried out.

ACCUSATION. The accusation to the McCanns is almost concluded and it should be known before of the 14 of July, the end date for the extended term to incriminate or not the British couple. The judicial authorities are still considering if they will not constitute more arguidos, since the McCann were not the only ones leaving their children alone.


Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]



Translated. The majority of you don't know but 24horas lately just has the on-line articles after 13pm or even later. Furthermore the on-line version of 24horas is the US version not the Portuguese one, so main pages with the McCanns case, sometimes do not appear.

Just wanted to add one more thing, I know majority of you believe 24horas to be untrustworthy but never forget what the journalists from 24horas have given us, aside Felícia Cabrita and Margarida Davim from SOL, the most important clues and evidences. Also 24horas journalists are not afraid of process like the Express Group, and they have showed that in previous high profiled cases. 24horas is currently much better reporting facts on this case than any formerly respected British Newspaper: for me the UK Media is the McCanns Media.

About the cowards: The only man who could pressure editorial guidelines as we have seen in the past year is Mr. Murdoch - Rupert, who owns several media outlets around the world including holdings in various press and TV station [Sky News] in the UK. Rupert the same man who creates and destroys the lives of politicians, the same man who serves as an advisor to the US President, and to the British Prime Minister. The Only Man who could pressure and in fact scare the living shit of all the Journalists and chief editors, who are too coward to do anything but oblige 'his masters voice'!

Influences, but still this is not the man running the show, he is a supporter of the master puppeteer.

Meanwhile remember this article Friends of McCanns 'scared to tell truth' from Tuesday, 12 November 2007 published in the Evening Standard and later on thisislondon.co.uk. Notice that the title and the article were updated, contents changed [deleted], the updated article can still be found [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].

“It’s not that he is scared of the McCanns, but the economic and political lobby surrounding the couple is truly frightening to anybody.”

A friend of Kate and Gerry McCann wants to "reveal the whole truth" about the case but is frightened of the couple's political allies, a lawyer claimed yesterday.

One of the so-called Tapas Nine wants to help Portuguese police with the six-month investigation but "feels obliged to keep silent", according to the unnamed legal source.

The lawyer attacked the intervention of "certain politicians" in the case and said they had prejudiced the hunt to discover what really happened to Madeleine McCann. Prime Minister Gordon Brown and Foreign Secretary David Miliband both spoke to the couple directly before the McCanns were made official suspects in the case.

Direct contact stopped when they were made arguidos in September but the Premier has been briefed on the case since then and raised it with his Portuguese counterpart last month.

The unnamed lawyer, who claimed to represent one of the Tapas Nine, told the respected Spanish newspaper El Mundo: "My client feels obliged to keep silent about what he can do to help the investigation, and not because of the Portuguese secrecy laws.

"It's not that he is scared of the McCanns, but the economic and political lobby surrounding the couple is truly frightening to anybody.

"What my client wants is to reveal the whole truth, but he does not mean to accuse or blame anyone, as that is the job of the police.

"The only thing he wants is to help the police discover the truth about what happened before, during and after that dinner on May 3."

McCann family spokesman Clarence Mitchell branded the report "utter rubbish" and insisted there was no rift between the couple and any of their friends.

He said the
unquote

My thinking is:

In Gerry's blog there is a mention  about June/July of the Tapas having to be interviewed for 'a memory of the future' - presumably a video interview/statement - which can be used as admissible evidence in court in  Portuguese law.
This was mid 2007.

Now in July 2007 Dianne Webster and the Payne's are put up in a hotel  by the PJ and have come to Portugal specifically to change their statements.

The rogs were in April the following year, so what statements were to be changed long before the investigation was shelved?

My feeling is that they were advised to put their evidence and willingness to cooperate on record just in case it ever came to a trial.
Should it come to a trial in Portugal, then the Payne family will be fine, their latest statements will be the truth and they will have nothing to fear on that count.

Doesn't the article say they returned in July 2007.....not 2008?

Watching The Detectives wrote:Doesn't the article say they returned in July 2007.....not 2008?

Yes sorry - i slipped up, but this change of statement is not likely to be the same as the ' memory for the future' which all  the T took part in before they left for the UK, as I understand.

I'll try and change it. thanks.

When exactly did the CSI dogs operate? If the changed statement was after the prelim. results were in?

It is more of a "double door" than a full reception.  You go in from the road, and immediately turn left past the end of the desk, then through the other door into the pool area.
It was not 'manned' at the time.
I would guess it is only staffed during peak periods in high season to prevent all and sundry getting into the pool area.
No TV.   No booking sheets, no staff reference book with damning details about their intention to neglect the children in such an organised manner,

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]" />
This is from street view.  You can see straight through the building.

Thankyou PeterMac

I"ve just checked - the dogs came the beginning of August, although amongst others The Sun ran an article on Eddie and Keela, who were supposed to be standing by to fly out as early as the 23rd May.
It might have been enough motivation to change an earlier statement, I don't know.

tigger wrote:My thinking is:

....

My feeling is that they were advised to put their evidence and willingness to cooperate on record just in case it ever came to a trial.
Should it come to a trial in Portugal, then the Payne family will be fine, their latest statements will be the truth and they will have nothing to fear on that count.

You seem to be very confident.

I've been looking over the P.J. files "missing pages" section and found this -     

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THANKS TO ALBYM

Document missing from DVD: Processo Volume XIII, Page 3909. In a memorandum dated 24 October 2007 (Processo Volume XIII, Page 3909) reference is made to a document written by Dr David Payne which document had been read carefully by British Detective Constable Mike Marshall, the author of the memorandum. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] The document written by Dr Payne is not in the DVD.

THANKS TO INES

There is only one statement from DP to PJ on the DVD unlike other T7 members. Possibly he made more then one Doe anyone have any information on this? It appears Payne was responding to the Gaspar statement.

He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed. 

Oh come on!

Have the Police had lobotomies?

There are massive red flags all over this case.

Most of the Police in this case (who are ALL following orders) must be thinking WTF?

@ Verdi. Many Thanks for posting that info  . Wow! I'd forgotten how gently Payne was handled by L.P.  I imagine he must have given some response to the Gaspar claims but I'd bet it was so lame that the obliging L.P. held onto it and waffled on his behalf. How Op. Grange could read this memorandum and not see grounds to revisit it is mind-boggling. This is, allegedly, the last "independent" witness to see Madeleine alive and he completely contradicts his own, his wife's and others' statements re. this crucial visit and cannot even explain why it was made. Stinks to high heaven!!

BlueBag wrote:

He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed. 

Oh come on!

Have the Police had lobotomies?

There are massive red flags all over this case.

Most of the Police in this case (who are ALL following orders) must be thinking WTF?

A blatant contradiction compared to his formal statement on 4th May 2007 and the rogatory interview one year later.

Timing shifts forward by an hour or so and Gerry McCann is whooshed from the scene. 

Little did they know that all this information would be made public.

Phoebe wrote:@ Verdi. Many Thanks for posting that info  . Wow! I'd forgotten how gently Payne was handled by L.P.  I imagine he must have given some response to the Gaspar claims but I'd bet it was so lame that the obliging L.P. held onto it and waffled on his behalf. How Op. Grange could read this memorandum and not see grounds to revisit it is mind-boggling. This is, allegedly, the last "independent" witness to see Madeleine alive and he completely contradicts his own, his wife's and others' statements re. this crucial visit and cannot even explain why it was made. Stinks to high heaven!!

So again a shadow of doubt is cast over Operation Grange.

The Metropolitan Police might have the ability to plug the holes faster than they appear but they can't wipe out what's on public record.  They must be squirming with humiliation - if they're not, they ruddy well should be !!!

I'm shocked by the differences in the accounts of where David Payne was on 3rd May and for how long! And the 'Fiona' factor too!
 Didn't David Payne ring the polce in London on 3rd of May?

Friends and family of David Payne will read this thread.

If they do, they need to ask him what it's all about.

BlueBag wrote:Friends and family of David Payne will read this thread.

If they do, they need to ask him what it's all about.

Friends and family, for whatever reason, have a 'orrible habit of turning a blind eye on matters of an unsavoury nature.

worriedmum wrote:
 Didn't David Payne ring the polce in London on 3rd of May?

 1485  "Do you recall me telling you about the London number, which you couldn't find in your phone''

 Reply "Yes.'

1485  "That number actually transcribes back to the Crime Specialist Director in London.'

Reply "Mm.'

1485  "Did you contact them''

Reply  "Err I did yes. My, err you know my sister err had been in contact with them and she was trying to do everything that she could knowing the, err, the difficulties that we were having out there so you know I did approach them just asking for advice but err I can't remember, I don't think I actually spoke to anyone there, but for some reason that wasn't carried forward.'

1485  "Yeah.'

Reply "But I mean, you know, just into the context of the conversation you know we're in a strange country, we've got no representeers we don't know what's going on, all hell's broken loose and you know to see whether you can do anything to help Madeleine come back, you know and that was the lines that we were taking.'

1485 "Do you remember who you spoke to'

Reply "I don't know.'

1485  "The call was made on the following day at twenty three thirteen, so that's late at night.'
 
Reply "Mm.'

 1485  "You don't recollect anything else about the conversation that you had with that, was it you that made the call''
 Reply "Err I, yeah I know that I got phone numbers from my sister which I did you know ring them but I can't remember making one late at night.'

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Nothing suspicious here - a very selective memory has David Payne and his chums.

From David Payne's rogatory statement

"... so again there was some correspondence we had with them just you know, just checking what, what was available in terms of the dinners as well, err Mark Warner's are generally I think half, you know half board and that wasn't on offer so there's some differences with Mark, that, that particular err venue compared with the other Mark Warner's that the, that the couples I've already mentioned had been on previously.' 

Why is Payne trying to claim dinner was not included in the holiday cost? I understood they were "half board" ie. breakfast and dinner included in the holiday package. Poor Gerry if this is the case, having to pay for breakfast, lunch and dinner each day. I do remember some claims over the years that only the Millenium food was part of the package deal. Is Payne claiming they would have had to pay for dinner anyway as another excuse for why they chose the Tapas?