Why are the Paynes/Webster airbrushed out?

by Nereid 15.10.13 14:45

There is not a single mention of the Paynes/Webster I can find in the Crimewatch programme.

"Reporter: The McCanns left their apartment at 8.30. They were joined at the Tapas restaurant by their friends Matt and Rachel Oldfield and Jane Tanner and her partner Russell O’Brien. At about 9 o’clock Matt left to make sure his children were alright. Shortly after he’d gone the remaining 3 people arrived."

All other Tapas are mentioned by name, but the Paynes/Webster are named as 'the remaining 3 people'.

Also no mention of David Payne's visit to Kate on the early evening of 3rd May to see if she was allright.

by Guest 15.10.13 14:51

sofa your comment deleted......libellous imo

by sofa 15.10.13 14:54

Sorry!

by Guest 15.10.13 15:55

Could it be they were promised immunity
And then ratted?

by tiny 15.10.13 16:58

Portia wrote:Could it be they were promised immunity
And then ratted?

If only,still theres always hope that one of them will come to their sences and tell what they really know, for Madeleine,s sake

by ultimaThule 15.10.13 18:02

I found it particularly significant that the Payne/Webster threesome were not mentioned by name at any time, especially when the only function of the actors playing the roles was to come into shot and sit down in accordance with the McCanns' script that has these 3 not leaving the table on any night as they were in possession of a baby listening device.

Either they've been completely ruled out of any complicity in Madeleine's disappearance and the police agreed not to taint the name of respected doctors (blah blah), or they've squawked and are in the process of 'helping the police with their enquiries'.

Or it could be they're up on other some other charge or have perished together and no longer have any relevance to the investigation.

Bit of a poser, isn't it? But I have no doubt all will be revealed in the not too distant future.

by Nereid 15.10.13 21:27

ultimaThule wrote:I found it particularly significant that the Payne/Webster threesome were not mentioned by name at any time, especially when the only function of the actors playing the roles was to come into shot and sit down in accordance with the McCanns' script that has these 3 not leaving the table on any night as they were in possession of a baby listening device.

Either they've been completely ruled out of any complicity in Madeleine's disappearance and the police agreed not to taint the name of respected doctors (blah blah), or they've squawked and are in the process of 'helping the police with their enquiries'.

Or it could be they're up on other some other charge or have perished together and no longer have any relevance to the investigation.

Bit of a poser, isn't it? But I have no doubt all will be revealed in the not too distant future.

I hope so ultimaThule.

The Payne visit must have been withheld for good reason. Has he changed his statement I wonder.

by Guest 16.10.13 10:49

Nereid wrote:
ultimaThule wrote:I found it particularly significant that the Payne/Webster threesome were not mentioned by name at any time, especially when the only function of the actors playing the roles was to come into shot and sit down in accordance with the McCanns' script that has these 3 not leaving the table on any night as they were in possession of a baby listening device.

Either they've been completely ruled out of any complicity in Madeleine's disappearance and the police agreed not to taint the name of respected doctors (blah blah), or they've squawked and are in the process of 'helping the police with their enquiries'.

Or it could be they're up on other some other charge or have perished together and no longer have any relevance to the investigation.

Bit of a poser, isn't it? But I have no doubt all will be revealed in the not too distant future.
I hope so ultimaThule.

The Payne visit must have been withheld for good reason. Has he changed his statement I wonder.

Have a read of this According to this article, DW DP and FP were brought back to Portugal........

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by Estelle 16.10.13 11:49

candyfloss wrote:
Nereid wrote:
ultimaThule wrote:I found it particularly significant that the Payne/Webster threesome were not mentioned by name at any time, especially when the only function of the actors playing the roles was to come into shot and sit down in accordance with the McCanns' script that has these 3 not leaving the table on any night as they were in possession of a baby listening device.

Either they've been completely ruled out of any complicity in Madeleine's disappearance and the police agreed not to taint the name of respected doctors (blah blah), or they've squawked and are in the process of 'helping the police with their enquiries'.

Or it could be they're up on other some other charge or have perished together and no longer have any relevance to the investigation.

Bit of a poser, isn't it? But I have no doubt all will be revealed in the not too distant future.
I hope so ultimaThule.

The Payne visit must have been withheld for good reason. Has he changed his statement I wonder.
Have a read of this According to this article, DW DP and FP were brought back to Portugal........

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PJ Brought Back to Portugal 3 of the McCanns Friends in Secrecy
In a secret visit to Portugal, three persons who had dinner at the Tapas Bar shattered the McCanns and Jane Tanner versions
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
[url=http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/06/pj-brought-back-to-portugal-3-of.html]These three witnesses returned to Portugal, on the 11th of July of 2007, in a travel paid by the Portuguese State, and were accommodated in a hotel unity of Portimão. They were still questioned by Gonçalo Amaral’s team, the superior coordinator who was removed from the case, and they contradicted the McCann’s version regarding to what went on in the night of the disappearance.

[/url]

by **tigger** 23.06.14 10:52

This is from Steel Magnolias about Payne's phone call - extracts from his rogatory interview:

[size=30]#McCann :David Payne Phoned The Metropolitan Police Child Abuse Team On May 4th 2007 at 23:13:41 for 100 seconds.....[/size]

.......And when questioned about this call by Leicestershire police, David Payne tried to deny it but when questioned further Payne was forced to admit he had made that call .

--------------

Statement from social worker Yvonne Warren Martin, who thought she recognised David Payne...Yvonne saw Payne in the morning and by the evening Payne was himself ringing 'child abuse' ...possibly Payne also recognised Yvonne.

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Snippet : The phone call from Paynes rogatory...

1485

"InP ortu gal? ”

Reply

"The, I mean, the other, there was a, the other person who contacted me which I didn‟t mention while I was at the Police Station was one of the Portuguese err newspapers and err you know asking, you
know for comments and err so that could have been what the, you know, the number. I spoke, I did speak to the other, the friends of
Simon ALDRIDGE‟S who you know who kindly bought the phones and they actually bought the phones to the Portimão Police Stationand I went downstairs and got the phones and then err brought them
back upstairs. Err in terms of you know whether I, we spoke to them on the next day sorry, was that the question?”

1485

"Well you spoke to them on the next day, the next day yeah that Madeleine went missing, on the fourth.”

Reply

"Right.”

1485

"That‟s when, well, there‟s text messages but what I‟m asking you is,

did you speak to them?”

00:22:29 Reply

"Err I don‟t remember having any text conversation with any err Portuguese newspapers so I presume that Portuguese number, they, sorry yeah the other, the, the other Portuguese person I spoke with
was err there was err a Solicitor in err Lisbon who err the conversation it may well have been with Lisa LACARNIE because that was a friend of their family who they, they‟ve got a business in
the UK but they deal with Portugal and Lisa said if you need any err Portuguese advice then there‟s err Paolo, and again I‟ve got his number in my other phone which might clarify that bit.”

1485

"Yeah.”

Reply

"And err he err and I did speak to him again after that day so it may well have been him just to say oh you know do you want any help,

do you want any advice, and err and that you know that‟s how it was left at that, that stage so that might have been, piecing it together from what you‟re saying.”

1485

"Do you recall me telling you about the London number, which you couldn‟t find in your phone?”

Reply

"Yes.”

00:24:00 1485

"That number actually transcribes back to the Crime Specialist

Director inLondon.”

Reply

"Mm.”

1485

"Did you contact them?”

Reply

"Err I did yes. My, err you know my sister err had been in contact with them and she was trying to do everything that she could knowing the, err, the difficulties that we were having out there so
you know I did approach them just asking for advice but err I can‟t remember, I don‟t think I actually spoke to anyone there, but for some reason that wasn‟t carried forward.”

1485

"Yeah.”

Reply

"But I mean, you know, just into the context of the conversation you know we‟re in a strange country, we‟ve got no representeers we don‟t know what‟s going on, all hell‟s broken loose and you know to see whether you can do anything to help Madeleine come back, you know and that was the lines that we were taking.”

1485

"Do you remember who you spoke to?”

Reply

"I don‟t know.”

1485

"The call was made on the following day at twenty three thirteen, so that‟s late at night.”

Reply

"Mm.”

1485

"You don‟t recollect anything else about the conversation that you had with that, was it you that made the call?”

Reply

"Err I, yeah I know that I got phone numbers from my sister which I did you know ring them but I can‟t remember making one late at night.”

by **tigger** 23.06.14 10:55

On the 12th of November 2013, the Paynes set up their own business. The DP UROLOGY SERVICES LIMITED has just the two directors; David Payne and Fiona Payne

I find the timing interesting. Nothing wrong with setting up this Ltd. Co. but it might also help if the McCann case should move into the next phase.
Safeguarding finances.

by HelenMeg 23.06.14 11:05

candyfloss wrote:
Nereid wrote:
ultimaThule wrote:I found it particularly significant that the Payne/Webster threesome were not mentioned by name at any time, especially when the only function of the actors playing the roles was to come into shot and sit down in accordance with the McCanns' script that has these 3 not leaving the table on any night as they were in possession of a baby listening device.

Either they've been completely ruled out of any complicity in Madeleine's disappearance and the police agreed not to taint the name of respected doctors (blah blah), or they've squawked and are in the process of 'helping the police with their enquiries'.

Or it could be they're up on other some other charge or have perished together and no longer have any relevance to the investigation.

Bit of a poser, isn't it? But I have no doubt all will be revealed in the not too distant future.
I hope so ultimaThule.

The Payne visit must have been withheld for good reason. Has he changed his statement I wonder.
Have a read of this According to this article, DW DP and FP were brought back to Portugal........

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Really very interesting to read the linked article.

Fiona's Mum's statement was said to be very solid, whereas the others were contradictory. Also interesting that DW didnt move from the table and this caused PJ to be suspicious - and her response was to the effect of 'she didnt believe the Mc Canns' (according to the article).

The DP / FP / DW returned to Portugal to state that JT had not left the table - even though she said that she left the table to go see her eldest daughter.
Really interesting seeing this again as I'd forgotten most of this.

Also pretty huge that DP / FP not in crimewatch. Has to be a big reason for this. Was it at their request ? Did they refuse? Something is going on here although by all accounts they did attend the Rothley memorial earlier this year..

by **tigger** 23.06.14 11:16

The Paynes and Webster were flown back on the 11th July as the 'Memory for the Future' took place in the week following the 14th of May according to this article:

Daily Mail 14 May 2007

This week the group are set to appear in court behind closed doors to record their evidence for any future trial before they go back to the UK.

The procedure, known as "memory for the future", is similar to a mock trial in which the friends would give evidence as witnesses now against a future defendant.

Local lawyer Artur Rego said the procedure was used only in exceptional cases such as this where a large group of witnesses are foreign.

"It is recorded by video and kept sealed then released during the hearing," he said.

"If somebody is ever charged then this statement can then be unsealed and disclosed for the judge who is going to hear the case.

"It has the same value as witness statements delivered live in the trial."

But the McCanns themselves are not expected to be asked to take part.

Unquote

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Memory for the Future:

Around 10 British people, including the McCanns and their friends, have been re-interviewed to clarify their statements in recent days.

This week the group are set to appear in court behind closed doors to record their evidence for any future trial before they go back to the UK.

The procedure, known as "memory for the future", is similar to a mock trial in which the friends would give evidence as witnesses now against a future defendant.

Local lawyer Artur Rego said the procedure was used only in exceptional cases such as this where a large group of witnesses are foreign.

"It is recorded by video and kept sealed then released during the hearing," he said.

"If somebody is ever charged then this statement can then be unsealed and disclosed for the judge who is going to hear the case.

"It has the same value as witness statements delivered live in the trial."

But the McCanns themselves are not expected to be asked to take part.

by **tigger** 23.06.14 11:19

The 'interview for just the three Tapas:

3 June 2008 | Posted by makeprofilelink("Joana Morais"); [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

WITNESSES CAME TO THE ALGARVE TO REINFORCE TESTIMONY THAT CONTRADICTS THE MCCANNS
Friends are the PJ trumps
In a secret visit to Portugal, three persons who had dinner at the Tapas Bar shattered the McCanns and Jane Tanner versions
Fiona Payne, her mother Dianne Webster, and the husband David Payne. Are the main trumps of the Public Ministry that will lead the parents of Madeleine McCann, the missing girl, on the 3rd of May of 2007, from an apartment in Praia da Luz, Algarve, to be accused of the crimes of exposition and abandonment since they left the girl alone in that critical night. It is a crime that is punishable up to ten years of prison and allows the respective preventive arrests, like 24horas announced last week.

These three witnesses returned to Portugal, on the 11th of July of 2007, in a travel paid by the Portuguese State, and where accommodated in a hotel unity of Portimão. They were still questioned by Gonçalo Amaral’s team, the superior coordinator who was removed from the case, and they contradicted the McCann’s version regarding to what went on in the night of the disappearance.

Remember that Kate, Gerry and the other two couples with whom they had dinner, assured that they were taking turns in the vigilance to the children. A fact that was contradicted to the authorities in the above-mentioned secret travel by Fiona Payne and that had already been put in question in two previous statements, given on the days that followed to Maddie's disappearance, by her mother and her husband.unquote

- and here is Gerry's strangely subdued entry in his blog:

Day 69
11-7-2007 Wednesday
This morning got off to a bad start when we were called, even before the twins were awake, by a reputable press agency saying that a body had been found and asking if it was true. It is very disappointing that this person did not check out the source of this rumour before contacting our representatives. Such calls and rumours are distressing even though we know if it does not come through an official source not to place much emphasis on it.
The Portuguese police interviewed three of our friends again today, to clarify points in their initial statements. As most of you will know, there is a lot of misleading information being published, both in the press and on the internet, about the events leading up to Madeleine's disappearance and the criminal investigation. We would like to give more information, especially about inaccurate and hurtful reports, but cannot for fear of prejudicing any subsequent court proceedings. The Portuguese police have made it clear to us that all witnesses should not divulge or discuss the information they have provided. Kate and I are, of course not party to all of the information coming into the inquiry for sound operational reasons.
unquote

That tells us very interesting things: here Gerry add that there is a lot of misleading information straight after telling us the unnamed friends are in PdL/Portimao.
The last sentence sound a bit forlorn, they are not getting all of the information. Well, well..... sad

by kevmack 23.06.14 12:08

HelenMeg wrote:

Also pretty huge that DP / FP not in crimewatch. Has to be a big reason for this. Was it at their request ? Did they refuse? Something is going on here although by all accounts they did attend the Rothley memorial earlier this year..

I asked about this before, were the Paynes at Rothley for the memorial this year. I saw some pics of the event, but don't recall seeing the Paynes there

by **tigger** 23.06.14 12:36

kevmack wrote:
HelenMeg wrote:

Also pretty huge that DP / FP not in crimewatch. Has to be a big reason for this. Was it at their request ? Did they refuse? Something is going on here although by all accounts they did attend the Rothley memorial earlier this year..
I asked about this before, were the Paynes at Rothley for the memorial this year. I saw some pics of the event, but don't recall seeing the Paynes there

Considering the chatty blog entries of Gerry, I find the lack of Paynes interesting. He hasn't added that they had a meal together, or talked about the search for Maddie. No, he just mentions these friends and tries to make it look as if they're there to correct 'misleading information'.

Even at that stage, one would expect there to have been no problem for the friends to be named of to have mentioned at least more details, such as looking back on the wonderful holiday... etc.

I'm just wondering if the whole enterprise began to unravel around that time. For the Paynes could only have been there to add or subtract from their earlier statements and particularly from the 'Memory for the Future'which I would think is a video since it's meant to be played in court.

So the Paynes have given statements on the 4th May, some time around the 16th May (Memory for the future) and again on the 11th July as well as in DP's case and extremely lengthy rogatory interview.
Would any of the questions answered on the 11th of July have been set again in April 08?
The Paynes seems to have been interviewed rather more than anyone else.

There is also a mention in the early days that Gerry spoke to Payne's father, some reference to Gerry respecting his judgement. I really don't know where to find this, but have read this ages ago. Next question is of course, who or what is/was DP's father?

by HelenMeg 23.06.14 12:45

kevmack wrote:
HelenMeg wrote:

Also pretty huge that DP / FP not in crimewatch. Has to be a big reason for this. Was it at their request ? Did they refuse? Something is going on here although by all accounts they did attend the Rothley memorial earlier this year..
I asked about this before, were the Paynes at Rothley for the memorial this year. I saw some pics of the event, but don't recall seeing the Paynes there

Hi Kevmack - a poster here said they were in the 'crowd'... and may've put up a picture to show their faces. In fact I think I saw it here somewhere.

JT and MO were in the mocumentary. Racheal went running with Kate and Gerry recently, RussO hasnt been seen
anywhere near for a few years - to my knowledge (could be wrong). DP has kept very quiet but seems to have attended the Rothley vigil thing.

by kevmack 23.06.14 12:46

Thanks for the extra info Tigger. I mentioned this in another thread that whilst many of us imagined that either Russell O'Brien or Jane Tanner would be the weakest link and perhaps most likely to blow the thing apart, that maybe it was the stronger of the friends (the Paynes certainly seem like strong characters) may actually be the ones to say "enough is enough" because I doubt they would want this hanging over them and potentially having an impact on their lives. Very interesting though.

Yes, that is interesting about Payne's father, I hope you can find the reference to it

by kevmack 23.06.14 12:48

HelenMeg wrote:
kevmack wrote:
HelenMeg wrote:

Also pretty huge that DP / FP not in crimewatch. Has to be a big reason for this. Was it at their request ? Did they refuse? Something is going on here although by all accounts they did attend the Rothley memorial earlier this year..
I asked about this before, were the Paynes at Rothley for the memorial this year. I saw some pics of the event, but don't recall seeing the Paynes there
Hi Kevmack - a poster here said they were in the 'crowd'... and may've put up a picture to show their faces. In fact I think I saw it here somewhere.

JT and MO were in the mocumentary. Racheal went running with Kate and Gerry recently, RussO hasnt been seen
anywhere near for a few years - to my knowledge (could be wrong). DP has kept very quiet but seems to have attended the Rothley vigil thing.

Thanks Helen, I haven't seen any pictures of them so just wondered. the last time I saw Fiona Payne in a picture was at the book banning trial in Lisbon when she went with Kate, no sign of David though

by worriedmum 23.06.14 13:50

Interesting thread;

I think David Payne has a strange way of expressing things-

''all hell‟s broken loose and you know to see whether you can do anything to help Madeleine come back,''

and Gerry's blog of 7th July 2207 seems to imply that he thinks his friends are helping the police sort out misapprehensions that the police have picked up from the media,
''
The Portuguese police interviewed three of our friends again today, to clarify points in their initial statements. As most of you will know, there is a lot of misleading information being published, both in the press and on the internet, about the events leading up to Madeleine's disappearance and the criminal investigation.''

by MaybeMaybenot 23.06.14 15:15

Could Payne actually be an undercover agent of some kind...infiltrating something in pdl

by Sparklehorse 23.06.14 15:23

You mean like a real life Johnny English? big grin

by fossey 23.06.14 15:32

MaybeMaybenot wrote:Could Payne actually be an undercover agent of some kind...infiltrating something in pdl

I think you have been watching too many James Bond movies....

by MaybeMaybenot 23.06.14 15:35

fossey wrote:
MaybeMaybenot wrote:Could Payne actually be an undercover agent of some kind...infiltrating something in pdl
I think you have been watching too many James Bond movies....

Maybe
Maybe not

Someone's being looked after

by fossey 23.06.14 15:39

MaybeMaybenot wrote:
fossey wrote:
MaybeMaybenot wrote:Could Payne actually be an undercover agent of some kind...infiltrating something in pdl
I think you have been watching too many James Bond movies....
Maybe
Maybe not

Someone's being looked after

That is true.

Although I don't think DP has turned into a secret undercover agent for MI5 and sipping shaken but not stirred Martini's.

by MaybeMaybenot 23.06.14 15:44

fossey wrote:
MaybeMaybenot wrote:
fossey wrote:
MaybeMaybenot wrote:Could Payne actually be an undercover agent of some kind...infiltrating something in pdl
I think you have been watching too many James Bond movies....
Maybe
Maybe not

Someone's being looked after
That is true.

Although I don't think DP has turned into a secret undercover agent for MI5 and sipping shaken but not stirred Martini's.

Did I mention mi5

by fossey 23.06.14 15:53

MaybeMaybenot wrote:
fossey wrote:
MaybeMaybenot wrote:
fossey wrote:
MaybeMaybenot wrote:Could Payne actually be an undercover agent of some kind...infiltrating something in pdl
I think you have been watching too many James Bond movies....
Maybe
Maybe not

Someone's being looked after
That is true.

Although I don't think DP has turned into a secret undercover agent for MI5 and sipping shaken but not stirred Martini's.
Did I mention mi5

Maybemaybenot.....

Don't want to have an argument with you. My responses were in jest.

There is a very good possibility that DP has 'turned' and has spoken in confidence about what he knows to OG.

As other posters have commented on, there must be a 'reason' why he has been completely omitted from the crimewatch programme etc.

The only logical one I can think of is that he is assisting OG with enquiries behind the scenes.

It was the way you said 'could DP be an undercover agent of some kind' that I thought was amusing - hence the James Bond reference.

Apologies.

by MaybeMaybenot 23.06.14 16:04

No probs....sorry also
I was more thinking about him being an agent from day one, possibly involving padophillic areas. The woman who recognised him in the room, can't think of her name now.
Maybe I am looking at it the wrong way, but its a good possibility or maybe not

by **tigger** 23.06.14 20:02

If DP had been an agent of sorts there would have been no need to change his statements. Working with the many indications we have doesn't show up anything like secret service of any kind. In fact they've just set up a medical Ltd.co. Both are still doctors.

I do feel Fossey picked up onthe significance of the various posts here and it gives me hope there will eventually be a case to answer. DP seems to have worked out very early how to protect his own interests.
Most of alll I'm interested in his remark in the rog about it not being the 'right forum'.

by **tigger** 23.06.14 20:27

worriedmum wrote:Interesting thread;

I think David Payne has a strange way of expressing things-

''all hell‟s broken loose and you know to see whether you can do anything to help Madeleine come back,''

and Gerry's blog of 7th July 2207 seems to imply that he thinks his friends are helping the police sort out misapprehensions that the police have picked up from the media,
''
The Portuguese police interviewed three of our friends again today, to clarify points in their initial statements. As most of you will know, there is a lot of misleading information being published, both in the press and on the internet, about the events leading up to Madeleine's disappearance and the criminal investigation.''

He does that sort of thing all the time. When asked in the Expresso i terview about those 14 voicemails, he says he did have hundreds of calls on the day after the 3rd. Same technique, add irrelevant 'fact' right after the bit of dangerous info.
Try and link them so that they become one:
Friends' statement - wrong press information
14 calls on 3rd. -100s calls on fourth. .... winkwink