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The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
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Post by Justice for Maddie 14.10.24 14:25

crusader wrote:This forum believes there was no kidnapper, are you of the mind that Madeleine could have been kidnapped by a stranger Anne?

Bernt Stellander interview - Page 24 ChXcX_VWgAAUVpw

Keela and Eddie don't lie.
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Post by Bluebagthepirate 14.10.24 14:34

CaKeLoveR wrote:The  kidnapper theory died a long time ago - at least here, anyway.
17 years ago on The Mirror forum before we were shut down and kicked off.

A lot of us ended up on the 3A's forum.
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Post by deepeepee 14.10.24 14:41

BerntS wrote:deepeepee. 
I understand, but things evolve from something simple.
Once a government official has set things in motion, there is no turning back, especially when SA could reflect back on you for taking the step to assist.
Sorry, this does not make any sense at all to me.
Did you read the list of people in the photo link I posted?

Literally overnight a huge number of people from all sorts of backgrounds and roles descended on PdL.

Then even more in the days that followed.
Even if only half of this list is verified it is just ridiculous that anything like this would be set in motion over some alleged SA.

At this moment in time, one child is just reported missing. There are thousands of possibilities which may explain this and no-one really knows anything at all yet but somehow there is an immediate deluge of VVIPs etc.

I think you are not looking at the evidence here, Bernt. Or am I missing something? Bernt Stellander interview - Page 24 1f610
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Post by CaKeLoveR 14.10.24 14:41

I wish I'd been aware of a Madeleine forum in the early days, I've missed a lot of information.
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Post by Justice for Maddie 14.10.24 14:48

deepeepee wrote:
BerntS wrote:deepeepee. 
I understand, but things evolve from something simple.
Once a government official has set things in motion, there is no turning back, especially when SA could reflect back on you for taking the step to assist.
Sorry, this does not make any sense at all to me.
Did you read the list of people in the photo link I posted?

Literally overnight a huge number of people from all sorts of backgrounds and roles descended on PdL.

Then even more in the days that followed.
Even if only half of this list is verified it is just ridiculous that anything like this would be set in motion over some alleged SA.

At this moment in time, one child is just reported missing. There are thousands of possibilities which may explain this and no-one really knows anything at all yet but somehow there is an immediate deluge of VVIPs etc.

I think you are not looking at the evidence here, Bernt. Or am I missing something? Bernt Stellander interview - Page 24 1f610

I'm with you, there was much more going on than some alleged SA and a following embarrassment for the UK. Too many powerful people have been involved since day one. But why?
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Post by deepeepee 14.10.24 14:51

AnneCGuedes wrote:
deepeepee wrote:
I have no idea what may be behind it all, of course. Occam's razor, yes please but this is evidence of more going on.

"He who rides a tiger is afraid to dismount.", a Chinese proverb says. Once a dangerous or troublesome venture is begun, the safest course is to carry it through to the end, The venture was to believe unconditionally in the kidnapping just because a couple of respectable doctors said so. And why would they lie?



Bill Pallot, the expert forger who swindled the highest authorities in the French State in matter of art, is behind the international scandal of fake 18th-century furniture (bought with the taxpayers' money). It's a saga as incredible as it is revealing of the flaws in the market and its players.
Sorry Anne,
I do not understand this comment at all.
If you are suggesting that this massive cover up charade (which still has no end in sight) was launched immediately literally before anyone had even gone to bed that night and no one knew anything just because someone said there was a kidnapping with zero evidence then I really don't know what to say.
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Post by CaKeLoveR 14.10.24 15:13

Perhaps the McCann's themselves were being used as a patsy; could they have have been roped in to cover something  - God knows what it could be - to bury bad news, so to speak? What happened to Madeleine, as an incident involving only a holidaying family, would have been an ideal subject to take attention off whatever was going on, or whatever may have about to hit the headlines. (All manner of possibilities whizz about in my head).
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Post by AnneCGuedes 14.10.24 15:15

deepeepee wrote:
If you are suggesting that this massive cover up charade (which still has no end in sight) was launched immediately literally before anyone had even gone to bed that night and no one knew anything just because someone said there was a kidnapping with zero evidence then I really don't know what to say.

It wasn't "someone said", but the victims themselves said.

It's not the only situation of performative utterance in this story. A performative utterance achieves what it states, using it brings about a reality.  Another example is the window/shutters found open. Who opened them, who closed them, etc. In fact imo they were never opened, just said to have been opened.
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Post by CaKeLoveR 14.10.24 15:22

Who are the victims? Post #698.
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Post by Justice for Maddie 14.10.24 15:39

Let's say Maddie was kidnapped. Who died in the apartment 5A? Maddie's clone/twin? 🙄
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Post by CaKeLoveR 14.10.24 15:44

Justice for Maddie wrote:Let's say Maddie was kidnapped. Who died in the apartment 5A? Maddie's clone/twin? 🙄
You'd think the McCann's would want to know that, instead of saying that Madeleine had nosebleeds. Another instance of dropping themselves in it.
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Post by Justice for Maddie 14.10.24 15:58

I meant that ironically.
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Post by deepeepee 14.10.24 16:17

AnneCGuedes wrote:
deepeepee wrote:
If you are suggesting that this massive cover up charade (which still has no end in sight) was launched immediately literally before anyone had even gone to bed that night and no one knew anything just because someone said there was a kidnapping with zero evidence then I really don't know what to say.

It wasn't "someone said", but the victims themselves said.

It's not the only situation of performative utterance in this story. A performative utterance achieves what it states, using it brings about a reality.  Another example is the window/shutters found open. Who opened them, who closed them, etc. In fact imo they were never opened, just said to have been opened.
There is only one victim here as far as I understand and she can't utter anything.
But regardless, maybe you could address my point about the huge cover up starting even before anyone knew what was going on or had uttered anything (Sorry, except K who knew immediately - "they've taken her"/sarc/)
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Post by CaKeLoveR 14.10.24 16:55

Who are the victims?
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Post by 1Reason 14.10.24 19:30

Justice for Maddie wrote:
deepeepee wrote:
BerntS wrote:deepeepee. 
I understand, but things evolve from something simple.
Once a government official has set things in motion, there is no turning back, especially when SA could reflect back on you for taking the step to assist.
Sorry, this does not make any sense at all to me.
Did you read the list of people in the photo link I posted?

Literally overnight a huge number of people from all sorts of backgrounds and roles descended on PdL.

Then even more in the days that followed.
Even if only half of this list is verified it is just ridiculous that anything like this would be set in motion over some alleged SA.

At this moment in time, one child is just reported missing. There are thousands of possibilities which may explain this and no-one really knows anything at all yet but somehow there is an immediate deluge of VVIPs etc.

I think you are not looking at the evidence here, Bernt. Or am I missing something? Bernt Stellander interview - Page 24 1f610

I'm with you, there was much more going on than some alleged SA and a following embarrassment for the UK. Too many powerful people have been involved since day one. But why?
I have read your book Bernt and totally agree with your theories, ( brilliant work), but I also agree about the amount of people involved in such a short space of time, ( I think there were less people involved when John Mccarthy was held hostage) which worries me as to why.?
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Post by AnneCGuedes 14.10.24 20:02

deepeepee wrote:
There is only one victim here as far as I understand and she can't utter anything.
But regardless, maybe you could address my point about the huge cover up starting even before anyone knew what was going on or had uttered anything (Sorry, except K who knew immediately - "they've taken her"/sarc/)

I use the word "victim" in its post-modern meaning.
Rumour started early in the morning "window open, shutters open, curtains open, door open and Madeleine gone". The melodramatic description has spread like wildfire
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Post by deepeepee 14.10.24 20:18

AnneCGuedes wrote:
deepeepee wrote:
There is only one victim here as far as I understand and she can't utter anything.
But regardless, maybe you could address my point about the huge cover up starting even before anyone knew what was going on or had uttered anything (Sorry, except K who knew immediately - "they've taken her"/sarc/)

I use the word "victim" in its post-modern meaning.
Rumour started early in the morning "window open, shutters open, curtains open, door open and Madeleine gone". The melodramatic description has spread like wildfire
I'll ask once more. Maybe you could just address my point about this all offical involvement at incredibly high levels within hours and before any "rumour started".
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Post by BerntS 14.10.24 20:19

1Reason.
Thanks.
As I've said I think first action by the Home Office was to check the background of the group. I think they found something alarming, which then was sent to Blair.... He pushed a button, and things were set in motion. GB took it another level. 

I've seen a list of people there, but I think Luz is a popular place for all kinds of Brits. I think if you took any day of the year and made a list, it would seem interesting, just due to positions and former positions visitors may have or have had.
MI5/6 were active IN Alvor at the time and no surprise they rushed in as well, from half hour drive away. 

My task if you like, was limited to the where they buried her, and the time she died. Imagine the brick's size if I went into all details about everything 😅
I wasn't out to impress all researchers on everything. The where turned into a book of when, because of what happened on the hill.

I think two names explains the mystery you address, and it's Blair and Brown. Those names are enough to put it together, without going deeper into that shit hole.....
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Post by Ladyinred 14.10.24 20:44

...Luz is a popular place for all kinds of Brits.

For example, during that fateful week, a nephew of a prominent Labour politician (also a member of a notable family) was on holiday there with his children.  Indeed, he claimed he had a photograph of his children , with M. in the background, taken on 3rd May.

I am not suggesting that this individual was involved in the disappearance.

What were M15/I6 doing locally, drugs?
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Post by pinkgladioli 14.10.24 20:54

BerntS wrote:1Reason.
Thanks.
As I've said I think first action by the Home Office was to check the background of the group. I think they found something alarming, which then was sent to Blair.... He pushed a button, and things were set in motion. GB took it another level. 

I've seen a list of people there, but I think Luz is a popular place for all kinds of Brits. I think if you took any day of the year and made a list, it would seem interesting, just due to positions and former positions visitors may have or have had.
MI5/6 were active IN Alvor at the time and no surprise they rushed in as well, from half hour drive away. 

My task if you like, was limited to the where they buried her, and the time she died. Imagine the brick's size if I went into all details about everything 😅
I wasn't out to impress all researchers on everything. The where turned into a book of when, because of what happened on the hill.

I think two names explains the mystery you address, and it's Blair and Brown. Those names are enough to put it together, without going deeper into that shit hole.....
And the Home Secretary John Reid resigns on the 5th May forfeiting his chance of a leadership contest with Gordon Brown for PM I wonder if he decided to distance himself because he didn’t agree with Blair pushing the button?
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Post by pinkgladioli 14.10.24 20:58

Ladyinred wrote:...Luz is a popular place for all kinds of Brits.

For example, during that fateful week, a nephew of a prominent Labour politician (also a member of a notable family) was on holiday there with his children.  Indeed, he claimed he had a photograph of his children , with M. in the background, taken on 3rd May.

I am not suggesting that this individual was involved in the disappearance.

What were M15/I6 doing locally, drugs?
Territorist Organisation Ireland
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Post by Clishmaclaver 14.10.24 21:05

pinkgladioli wrote:
Ladyinred wrote:...Luz is a popular place for all kinds of Brits.

For example, during that fateful week, a nephew of a prominent Labour politician (also a member of a notable family) was on holiday there with his children.  Indeed, he claimed he had a photograph of his children , with M. in the background, taken on 3rd May.

I am not suggesting that this individual was involved in the disappearance.

What were M15/I6 doing locally, drugs?
Territorist Organisation Ireland

Are you referring to the Real IRA gun-running place that was situated not too far away?  
Hmmm!
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Post by pinkgladioli 14.10.24 21:14

Yes there is a possibility of the security services being in the area at the time
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Post by AnneCGuedes 14.10.24 21:44

deepeepee wrote:
I'll ask once more. Maybe you could just address my point about this all offical involvement at incredibly high levels within hours and before any "rumour started".
Could you tell which day and time you're referring to ? (Rumour started in the early morning of May 4)
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Post by PeterMac 14.10.24 22:16

Try late evening 2nd and it fits much better 
Deleted phone records . . . Sky news ready,  Jon Clarke poised to strike
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Post by sharonl 14.10.24 22:43

BerntS wrote:1Reason.
Thanks.
As I've said I think first action by the Home Office was to check the background of the group. I think they found something alarming, which then was sent to Blair.... He pushed a button, and things were set in motion. GB took it another level. 

I've seen a list of people there, but I think Luz is a popular place for all kinds of Brits. I think if you took any day of the year and made a list, it would seem interesting, just due to positions and former positions visitors may have or have had.
MI5/6 were active IN Alvor at the time and no surprise they rushed in as well, from half hour drive away. 

My task if you like, was limited to the where they buried her, and the time she died. Imagine the brick's size if I went into all details about everything 😅
I wasn't out to impress all researchers on everything. The where turned into a book of when, because of what happened on the hill.

I think two names explains the mystery you address, and it's Blair and Brown. Those names are enough to put it together, without going deeper into that shit hole.....

Two more things to add here:

Firstly, how was Gerry able to get through to Gordon Brown by telephone?  Was Alistair Campbell involved in this?

Secondly, why on earth did Blair send the head of his media monitoring unit over to Luz to speak for the McCanns?  Why did Mitchell forfeit his job to work for them? And why did this continue after September 7th when they were declared official suspects?

Clarence Mitchell stated "It was may job to control what comes out in the press" speaks volumes, doesn't it?

There is plenty of material about Mitchell on the forum Bernt,  he is the forum's favourite rogue.  big grin
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Post by BerntS 14.10.24 22:57

Sharonl. 
GB called Gerry. 

My "softness" on Clarrie had a tactical aspect to it. I wasn't out to recruit an army against me.... That was easier than I thought. I just stated smithman was irrelevant and the community turned on me and attacked 🥴

I tried to be objective. Clarrie saved them, end of story. He did do his job well. What I think of him personally is irrelevant.

The  northern irish anti terror operations were in Alvor, half hour away, so they were there quickly because of that.
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Post by sharonl 14.10.24 23:27

BerntS wrote:Sharonl. 
GB called Gerry. 

My "softness" on Clarrie had a tactical aspect to it. I wasn't out to recruit an army against me.... That was easier than I thought. I just stated smithman was irrelevant and the community turned on me and attacked 🥴

I tried to be objective. Clarrie saved them, end of story. He did do his job well. What I think of him personally is irrelevant.

The  northern irish anti terror operations were in Alvor, half hour away, so they were there quickly because of that.

100% agree that smithman is irrelevant, well to a point anyway.  The timing was a bit suspicious though.

They see a man carrying a child and think nothing of it despite the panic, search, sirens etc. in the area.

Then Murat gets arrested and suddenly they see a man who they say was not Murat, later claiming that it was Gerry and then going silent on that after a meeting with Brian Kennedy.  Odd?  What went on here?

Was this just a plot to exonerate Murat after he took the heat off the McCanns for a short while.


BTW - Excellent book   thumbsup
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Post by BerntS 14.10.24 23:51

Sharonl. 
Thanks. 
Keep in mind three witnesses state that the alarm must have been around 9:20 to 9:40pm, NOT 10pm!
On top of that there are strong indications that the smiths were at the spot of the sighting at least 30 minutes later! Read Peter Macs ebook chapter 63 and the added part of 63.

Personally I think they were there almost an hour later than they claim, which also could explain why whomever carried his child never stepped forward, as he knew it couldn't have been him they saw!!

There are many other plausible reasons people don't come forward. Something like sick leave or on benefits not supposed to go on holiday and such...

But it's as simple as an alarm before 10pm should exlude even suggesting that G could have been there.
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Post by Honesty 15.10.24 8:46

BerntS wrote:Honesty. 
Sure, I have no problem with critical thinking or critique. But it has to be based on arguments and the case I present in the book, not myself sick as a dog on a three hour podcast without breaks going off the leash.
Pat obviously didn't read my book, just whimmed through it. A review is normally presenting the theories, and arguing against it based on the arguments backing up those theories. That didn't happen. The only argument she came up with was the word nonsense. 

When I mentioned the words "following me", it was meant that if you finally deny smithgerryman, you'd be placed in the box of "following Bernt", which it's becoming clear is like supporting the evil one. 

I actually enjoy good counter arguments to the point that I'll flip in a second if I'm proven wrong. Truth is all that matters. 

My point was that Peter's been destroying smithgerryman with fork, spoon, knife and tea spoon, yet it's like people don't accept great arguments or facts anymore. That's why he's using the words religion and cult, because that's per definition smithgerryman has become. 

The worst deduction I've ever seen by a profiler is Pats argument for that being Gerry; - the mccs response. 
Their response has a very logical alternative interpretation, which is that any other observation leading us away from Tannernan, their own designed abductor, is not good for their own narrative and timeline. Second, Smith sketching his own conviction, after having seen Gerry's face on the front page every day, does not only have zero evidencial value, it is a huge distraction and could get people to doubt the mccs narrative about Tannerman. Totally expected behavior by the mccs in the situation we all agree on, that there was no abduction, and that Jane wasn't there to see Tannerman. Using those two totally logical reasons for them to ignore those inconvenient distractions from the narrative, as indications or even evidence of that being Gerry, is an insult to deductive reasoning, intelligence and common sense. 
How can you sketch someone so detailed months later, when you initially say you would not recognise the person, not even on photos.....and sketching a front view, when you basically saw a person of zero interest from an angle of 33 to 60 degrees for two seconds max, while walking uphill in the dark on a bad surface after having had at least six units of alcohol, trying not to bury your nose in the tarmac. 

It's funny when someone shows confidence, it has a tendency to make the turds float to the surface. That's just how I roll. I find it entertaining and it's a way to know who you're "around". 

Just look at the reaction when someone says smithman is a distraction and is irrelevant. 

Pat, Isabelle and others have still been intellectually honest and admitting that IF it happened earlier than evening of May 3rd, then of course smithman couldn't have been Gerry.

So let's see if they step out of the trenches, or simply are in a cult. 

After Peter's chapter 63 they should already have questioned their own theories, but they won't even look at it, because if they did, they would moderate their cultish behavior. Instead they pretend his arguments don't exist, and keep on attacking me. I'm loving it BTW. 

Soon we will find out...

And of course there's only one true timeline! 

1) I used the words "impossible find" as several police detectives have used those words. I think even Peter Bleksley used them. 

2) of course anyone can ask me anything.

And you should read the book in which a theory is presented, to avoid being called ignorant for debating content you haven't seen.
I was very surprised to see you state that when "someone shows confidence, it has a tendency to make the turds float to the surface".  Hopefully,  this does not mean that you view anyone who does not agree with your theory as a "turd".

You refer to people who "keep on attacking" you and "you're loving it". Imho you dislike it intensely when anyone puts an alternative viewpoint to that of your own. By, the way, for the avoidance of doubt, I hope you are right and, again, that you solve this case.

Thank you for responding to my two questions. 

You say you used the words "impossible find" as several police detectives have used these words. To re-cap, you said to JE, "keep in mind this is an impossible find, let's be honest, right?"

"Let's".  That is, Let us?

You replied, "of course anyone can ask me anything", in response to my second question.  For the sake of clarity does this mean that JE will be able to ask you whatever he wishes?

Thank you.
Honesty
Honesty

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