Re: Photographs Revisited - general

by Guest 19.08.18 13:46

orvar wrote:That's pretty much what I was thinking in terms of who might had a photographic record of the day. I did wonder if the authorities had any issues with the picture and timeline for it and whether they'd done exactly this to confirm or deny it. I'm guessing not from what I've read so far.

Good afternoon and welcome

orvar.

Well, if the Portuguese authorities didn't have reason to question the poolside photograph during their investigation - they sure are aware now.

Have you read this..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Then there is the issue of an invasion of privacy, although I realise others will think differently. No problem for an official police force to appeal to the public for information concerning a police investigation but members of the public taking on such an approach is in my view wrong. Besides, there is no guaranteed productive result - just look how many times over the past eleven years, false information has been followed resulting in forum myth taken as fact - because because because....

Dear ......

Hello, you don't know me but my name is Arfa Connem-Doyle, I'm researching the case of missing Madeleine McCann who disappared from a holiday apartment on the Algarve 11 years ago.

I see from the Portuguese police files that you and your family were staying at the Ocean Club Praia da Luz during the same week as the child went missing. I'm wondering if you could assist my research by looking back at the photographs you took during your holiday and let me know precise detail of the weather conditions for each day - what time each photograph was taken, where it was taken, the positioning of the subject matter in relation to the camera, whether you used any digital enhancements available on your camera that might alter colour, focus, magnification, distance, contours, lighting etc. and anything else you might think helpful? Even better if you could scan copies and email over to me.

I am a genuine truth seeker so don't be alarmed. I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours ....

I wonder if Kevin Halligan and associates used this approach when intimidating witnesses or whether they adopted the doorstepping angle, financial reward or threats. Not something I would care to get involved with.

by **Jill Havern** 19.08.18 14:49

orvar wrote:Hello,

Having just read the article about the last photo [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I kept coming back to a really obvious question about verification of it...

If there really is a question mark over the day/time the photo was taken, why not simply contact other people who were there at the time and compare the photos they took? With similar time stamps, wouldn't they at least confirm the shadows, sun angle, cloud cover and maybe even indicate wind speed?

Have I missed the point or wouldn't this be an obvious method instead of trying to analyse a single photo?

Cheers

That's exactly what PeterMac did with his research of the Pool Photo - he used flickr and windsurfing competitions (which are all date-stamped and still all over the internet on various sites) as can be found in his many Pool Photo chapters, especially the last two: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by **sharonl** 19.08.18 15:19

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Wind surfing May 3rd 2007 - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Petermac has done a lot of research into the weather conditions in PDL that week. His research is based on information from credible and professional sources and can be read in his free e-book. Link given in Jill Haverns' post above

by sammyc 19.08.18 19:19

orvar wrote:Hello,

Having just read the article about the last photo [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I kept coming back to a really obvious question about verification of it...

If there really is a question mark over the day/time the photo was taken, why not simply contact other people who were there at the time and compare the photos they took? With similar time stamps, wouldn't they at least confirm the shadows, sun angle, cloud cover and maybe even indicate wind speed?

Have I missed the point or wouldn't this be an obvious method instead of trying to analyse a single photo?

Cheers

Welcome orvar, 'why not simply contact other people who were there at the time and compare the photos they took?' I'm pretty sure Team McCann requested anyone who had photos to hand them over to their side rather than the Portuguese Police. Happy to be corrected.

by Guest 19.08.18 21:24

sammyc wrote:
orvar wrote:Hello,

Having just read the article about the last photo [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I kept coming back to a really obvious question about verification of it...

If there really is a question mark over the day/time the photo was taken, why not simply contact other people who were there at the time and compare the photos they took? With similar time stamps, wouldn't they at least confirm the shadows, sun angle, cloud cover and maybe even indicate wind speed?

Have I missed the point or wouldn't this be an obvious method instead of trying to analyse a single photo?

Cheers
Welcome orvar, 'why not simply contact other people who were there at the time and compare the photos they took?' I'm pretty sure Team McCann requested anyone who had photos to hand them over to their side rather than the Portuguese Police. Happy to be corrected.

Happy to be corrected? No way sammyc - you are 100% correct, only the reality is a darn sight worse..

Madeleine police plea for photos

Tourists who have visited the Algarve resort where Madeleine McCann was abducted are being asked to send their holiday photographs to British police.

They want anyone who was in the Praia da Luz area in the two weeks before the four-year-old disappeared on 3 May to send their photos to a new website.

Officers will cross-reference them with a database of UK paedophiles.

Madeleine's father Gerry has returned to Portugal to rejoin his wife and children after a brief trip to the UK.

Yellow tributes
Mr McCann arrived back in Praia Da Luz on Tuesday morning after his one-day visit home.
During his trip, Mr McCann visited the family's home village of Rothley, Leicestershire, where he saw the thousands of yellow ribbons, tributes, flowers and cuddly toys left by the public.

He spoke to some of the people who had gathered to show their support and tied his own yellow ribbon, which has become a symbol of hope for Madeleine.

As well as meeting organisers of the campaign to find her, it is believed his visit was also intended to enable the family to stay in Portugal for the foreseeable future.

Accompanied by aides carrying a suitcase and parcels, Mr McCann returned to be with his wife, Kate, who had remained at the family's Algarve holiday apartment.

'Jigsaw piece'

Making their appeal for photographs, UK police said they wanted pictures that included strangers in the background, but not family or empty scenic shots.

Photos can be uploaded via a website - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The photographs will be cross-referenced against a database of pictures of UK paedophiles and other criminals, with police able to check 1,000 an hour.

Any relevant information will then be passed on to the Portuguese police.

Jim Gamble, of the Child Exploitation and Online Protection (CEOP) Centre, said: "No matter how small or insignificant the information may seem to you, it could be the missing part of the jigsaw, so let us decide if it is important.

"We are looking for anyone who was at the Ocean Club Resort or surrounding area in the two weeks leading up to Madeleine's disappearance on 3 May, who have photographs that might help our work."

Detective Chief Superintendent Anne Harrison, of the National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA), said it was possible Madeleine was still being hidden in Praia da Luz.

She also appealed for anyone who took a part in the initial search for her, before the Portuguese police arrived, to contact police on 0800 0961233.

Police have teamed up with a number of computer companies to deliver the technological power behind the website and the collection of photographs.

As well as uploading them, police say the public can take any photos they might think relevant to high street photography shop Jessops, which will convert traditional prints to digital images for free.

A number of UK law enforcement agencies are helping the Portuguese authorities, including Leicestershire Constabulary, the Association of Chief Police Officers, CEOP and the NPIA.

Portuguese police have also confirmed they are investigating claims of a possible sighting of Madeleine in Morocco.

Chief inspector Olegario Sousa said the clue was "being verified" and that the Moroccan authorities had been contacted.

One-minute silence

At noon on Monday a one-minute silence was held in Portugal to show solidarity with Madeleine's family.

The silence was initiated by an anonymous chain e-mail circulated around the country at the weekend and was observed by tourists and locals.

Madeleine's mother Kate McCann observed the silence privately at the family's holiday apartment.

Senior detectives in Portimao, who are investigating Madeleine's disappearance, also stopped for one minute.

The latest public display of support has come from the Liverpool football team, who were photographed on Monday with a banner asking for information of Madeleine's whereabouts.

They were pictured as they left the UK for their Champions League final in Athens on Wednesday.

Portuguese people have also been asked to pray for Madeleine on Tuesday night in a nationwide e-mail from Carmelite nuns.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
....................

This is the Jim Gamble who became close friends with the McCanns - so convinced was he of their innocence. If anyone did submit their photographs to the CEOP, for sure they never reached Portugal !!!

bignono

by Guest 19.08.18 21:58

I've moved the thread initiated by new member orvar here should members wish to respond. I don't think the forum needs yet another thread dedicated to the 'Last Photograph'.

The subject has been resolved as far as humanly possible by the available evidence.

by **sharonl** 19.08.18 22:13

sammyc wrote:
orvar wrote:Hello,

Having just read the article about the last photo [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I kept coming back to a really obvious question about verification of it...

If there really is a question mark over the day/time the photo was taken, why not simply contact other people who were there at the time and compare the photos they took? With similar time stamps, wouldn't they at least confirm the shadows, sun angle, cloud cover and maybe even indicate wind speed?

Have I missed the point or wouldn't this be an obvious method instead of trying to analyse a single photo?

Cheers
Welcome orvar, 'why not simply contact other people who were there at the time and compare the photos they took?' I'm pretty sure Team McCann requested anyone who had photos to hand them over to their side rather than the Portuguese Police. Happy to be corrected.

As I remember, they were collected by McCann supporter, Jim Gamble, former head of CEOP but I don't think that he or CEOP forwarded any of these to the investigation.

by PLL 26.08.18 15:46

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This is a shadow analysis of so called McCann's last picture or pool photo.

I started with Maddie's hair (rightmost "vertical" line marked by an arrow).

All other lines are parallel to this one. Short lines striking match corresponding points creating shadow.

I think this makes clear the shadow on Gerry's left tigh.

Also it makes clear the picture was taken very close to solar noon, which occurred at 13.33 local time (I think UK time is the same) on May 3rd, 2007 and on April 29th, 2007 (very close dates), as it can be checked here:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I'd like to have the exact point in the pool where they took the picture, so that I can check Sun's direction.

My calculations (which may fail), is that shadow is 2º from a vertical line, taking the line separating blue "azulejos" in pool's wall as vertical.

Unfortunately Suncalc doesn't offer the exact angle expected at 13.29, one must guess from the picture.

The person who took the pic seems to be reflected in Gerry left lenses. It looks like a woman in sunglasses wearing pink and watching through camera in her right eye (left eye on reflexion, once it's inverted). I think it might be Kate.

P.S. - after analysing the picture in fotoforensics.com I couldn't find any indication it's been doctored. It would be almost impossible to add a person in this picture and leave it that perfect, so IMO that's time-wasting trying to demonstrate it was anyhow modified.

by Guest 26.08.18 16:11

The person who took the pic seems to be reflected in Gerry left lenses.

????

I don't think so.

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(Very large picture - probably the biggest most detailed version on the internet).

I also don't think the lines you drew make much sense either.

by **sharonl** 26.08.18 16:53

Hi again PLL

The Poolside photograph has been the subject of some very detailed research and much discussion on the forum and there has been much speculation over whether or not the it had been photoshopped.

A research group had the photograph analysed by two independent experts who separately concluded that the picture was not photoshopped but that the date and time had been altered. There is more information on the forum and in the free e-book by Petermac [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The Photograph was not presented to the investigation until Gerry returned to PDL after a visit to the UK.

by PLL 26.08.18 17:10

Hi, BlueBag, thanks for the comment.

I have used the picture from this forum, which is same resolution, 3072 x 2304 Pixels.

Resolution here is lower, but it doesn't matter as picture is accurate enough and that can be verified.

The purpose of the lines is to mark sun's direction at the time, which depends on hour and date picture was taken.

Perhaps if you take this zooms it may look more clear:

Right lower arrow points something one can guess it's a camera (hardest part to see, it will help if you watch from different angles).

Left arrow points to cloth in pink.

Upper arrows points to sunglasses.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by PLL 26.08.18 17:13

Hi sharonl again big grin

I agree, no evidence it was photoshopped.

Like everything in McCann's it's strange they only present the picture on May 24th.

I've read Petermac's book.

The date and time can be right or wrong. That's why analysing shadows might help.

by PLL 26.08.18 17:20

The problem with dating this picture is that McCanns don't show the pictures in camera before and after this one.

Any normal people would have had to present all pictures in camera to the police, but McCanns for some reason are the ones who decide when and which pictures to present.

by Guest 26.08.18 19:48

PLL wrote:Hi, BlueBag, thanks for the comment.

I have used the picture from this forum, which is same resolution, 3072 x 2304 Pixels.

Resolution here is lower, but it doesn't matter as picture is accurate enough and that can be verified.

The purpose of the lines is to mark sun's direction at the time, which depends on hour and date picture was taken.

Perhaps if you take this zooms it may look more clear:

Right lower arrow points something one can guess it's a camera (hardest part to see, it will help if you watch from different angles).

Left arrow points to cloth in pink.

Upper arrows points to sunglasses.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Total rubbish.

by Guest 26.08.18 20:47

Topics merged.

As stated above by SharonL, this photograph has been the subject of much discussion and analysis over the years - it's all on the forum if any one is interested in the conclusion reached by informed study and professional expertise.

The subject is saturated - I don't think there's any need for yet another thread.

by **Tony Bennett** 26.08.18 22:08

PLL wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

This is a shadow analysis of so called McCann's last picture or pool photo.

I started with Maddie's hair (rightmost "vertical" line marked by an arrow).

All other lines are parallel to this one. Short lines striking match corresponding points creating shadow.

I think this makes clear the shadow on Gerry's left tigh.

Also it makes clear the picture was taken very close to solar noon, which occurred at 13.33 local time (I think UK time is the same) on May 3rd, 2007 and on April 29th, 2007 (very close dates), as it can be checked here:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I'd like to have the exact point in the pool where they took the picture, so that I can check Sun's direction.

My calculations (which may fail), is that shadow is 2º from a vertical line, taking the line separating blue "azulejos" in pool's wall as vertical.

Unfortunately Suncalc doesn't offer the exact angle expected at 13.29, one must guess from the picture.

The person who took the pic seems to be reflected in Gerry left lenses. It looks like a woman in sunglasses wearing pink and watching through camera in her right eye (left eye on reflexion, once it's inverted). I think it might be Kate.

P.S. - after analysing the picture in fotoforensics.com I couldn't find any indication it's been doctored. It would be almost impossible to add a person in this picture and leave it that perfect, so IMO that's time-wasting trying to demonstrate it was anyhow modified.

1. Your analysis of the angle of the shadows is helpful. The main point is that the lines of shadow are consistent throughout the photograph - something that cannot be faked. This confirms that the photo is GENUINE. It has NOT been doctored. Full stop.

2. It was also very obviously taken at mid-day on a very sunny, warm day. The only such day that week was Sunday 29 April.

3. Many years ago I used my knowledge of geography and astronomy (limited though that is) plus some internet research to suggest that the sun was at its highest that time of year in Portugal at about 1.35pm BST & Portuguese time. So if you say from better sources that it is actually 1.33pm I am content with that.

4. I do not think the angle from the vertical is as low as 2º. I suggest it's more likely to be about 8º or even 10º. I do not think the sun is at 88º in April/May, more like 82º or 80º.

5. The McCanns say the photo was taken at 2.29pm although I think they said their camera said it was 1.29pm but hadn't been adjusted for Portuguese time (of course, it didn't need to be, the times are the same throughout the year!).

If we assume for the moment that the photo was taken at EITHER 1.29pm OR 2.29pm, then we have evidential support for the photo being taken at 2.29pm Sunday 29th rather than 1.29pm Sunday 29th. This is because a cleaning lady says she saw Madeleine and the rest of her family leaving their flat O THE SUNDAY with some picnic lunch at about 1.15pm to 1.30pm. This would 'fit' very nicely with the family having lunch with their friends the Paynes from about 1.30pm to 2.20pm and then bringing their children out to the pool on that sunny Sunday.

6. I think you are incorrect about what you see in the sunglasses. It's clear that it's an image of a circular pool which has resulted in the reflection being turned round by 90º. I suggest that what we see on the image, from LEFT TO RIGHT, is:

blue pool, then
poolside terrace (buff/cream colour)
possible pink towel or jumper
black images may be a wall, or shade e.g. from a tree, or some other dark objects.

by PLL 26.08.18 22:28

Verdi wrote:Topics merged.

As stated above by SharonL, this photograph has been the subject of much discussion and analysis over the years - it's all on the forum if any one is interested in the conclusion reached by informed study and professional expertise.

The subject is saturated - I don't think there's any need for yet another thread.

Verdi, that's ok for me that you move my thread according to forum rules. Me, like most unexperienced members find it difficult to decide where to place a thread.

Anyway, I don't feel very happy that my thread is put in something like a common trench, and you may wish to keep it independent again, if you don't mind.

Sorry for any disturbance that I may have caused.

by PLL 26.08.18 23:36

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Yes, I think it's final that picture is genuine.

Suncalc.com gives 13.33 and Suncalc.org offer a more precise time at 13.31.49 You were almost there.

I was surprised by the small angle, too. There must be something wrong. The only vertical safe refences are the lines between blue "azulejos" and the pole behind Gerry, and both match, but I must be missing something.

I don't understand why the time in camera should be 1 hour ahead, as time in UK and Portugal is the same. The camera clock might be innacurate, but then it would be a great coincidence that it advanced exactly 1 hour (a lot of time anyway).

It's hard to believe April 29th. I think Petermac's analysis of weather is brilliant, however there are only 2 sources, Sagres and Faro, and both are a lot discrepant.

Also, if you check "Creche" registers, there are people going to the pool on May 3rd, both in the morning and the afternoon. On May 2nd, there are people going to the beach in the afternoon (no pool/beach on morning registers), On May 1st, there are people going to the pool in the morning, and to the pool and beach in the afternoon. On April 30th, there are people going to the pool in the morning (I'm not sure about afternoon). On April 29th no such registers. No registers don't mean no one went to pool or beach, but from those positive results in other days it seems McCanns didin't get that bad weather during holidays.

If you look at this picture, you can see perfect reflex on lenses. I can't understand why Gerry's glasses should rotate it 90ª.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by Guest 26.08.18 23:42

PLL wrote:Anyway, I don't feel very happy that my thread is put in something like a common trench, and you may wish to keep it independent again, if you don't mind.

Sorry for any disturbance that I may have caused.

I'm sorry that you already, after only one day, find the forum unsuited to your frame of mind.

As I said, I see no reason for the initiation of yet another thread to discuss a subject that's already been thrashed to death and resolved as far as deemed possible by a team of experts in digital photography. My decision remains intact.

Rest assured you have caused no disturbance. If you have any problems with navigation of the forum, just ask for help - the admin team are at your disposal.

thumbsup

by **Tony Bennett** 27.08.18 9:41

PLL wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Yes, I think it's final that picture is genuine.

Suncalc.com gives 13.33 and Suncalc.org offer a more precise time at 13.31.49 You were almost there.

I was surprised by the small angle, too. There must be something wrong. The only vertical safe refences are the lines between blue "azulejos" and the pole behind Gerry, and both match, but I must be missing something.

I don't understand why the time in camera should be 1 hour ahead, as time in UK and Portugal is the same. The camera clock might be innacurate, but then it would be a great coincidence that it advanced exactly 1 hour (a lot of time anyway).

It's hard to believe April 29th. I think Petermac's analysis of weather is brilliant, however there are only 2 sources, Sagres and Faro, and both are a lot discrepant.

Also, if you check "Creche" registers, there are people going to the pool on May 3rd, both in the morning and the afternoon. On May 2nd, there are people going to the beach in the afternoon (no pool/beach on morning registers), On May 1st, there are people going to the pool in the morning, and to the pool and beach in the afternoon. On April 30th, there are people going to the pool in the morning (I'm not sure about afternoon). On April 29th no such registers. No registers don't mean no one went to pool or beach, but from those positive results in other days it seems McCanns didin't get that bad weather during holidays.

If you look at this picture, you can see perfect reflex on lenses. I can't understand why Gerry's glasses should rotate it 90ª.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

@ PLL

I think on this occasion the Moderator is correct. It is actually very helpful to have the photography issues on as few threads as possible.

Now to reply to some of your points:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I was surprised by the small angle, too. There must be something wrong. The only vertical safe refences are the lines between blue "azulejos" and the pole behind Gerry, and both match, but I must be missing something.

REPLY: I think the simple point is that you have underestimated the angle from the vertical. Looking at your lines on the image, it looks more like about 8º or even 10º from the vertical to me - which would be consistent with the angle of the sun at mid-day on 20 April 2007. I am not sure why you have chosen such a low figure as 2º?

I don't understand why the time in camera should be 1 hour ahead, as time in UK and Portugal is the same. The camera clock might be inaccurate, but then it would be a great coincidence that it advanced exactly 1 hour (a lot of time anyway).

REPLY: I suspect someone has altered the DATE of the photograph but NOT the time. It is possible that the camera clock was originally set one hour different from Portuguese and British summertime. Which are the same, as you say. I therefore think it is POSSIBLE that the photo was originally taken EITHER at 1.29pm OR 2.29pm. As it happens, the McCanns say it was taken at 2.29pm, and this agrees also with the cleaning lady's evidence that, on Sunday at about 1.15pm to 1.30pm, she saw Madeleine and the family going up to the Paynes' apartment for a picnic lunch. That is consistent with the McCanns coming down to the pool after lunch and Gerry, Amelie and Madeleine being photographed at 2.29pm on the Sunday.

One other point. Why did the McCanns suddenly switch their plans after Sunday and decide to eat breakfast and lunch in their own apartment? I think we have answered this on the forum, but you may well have your own ideas on this.

It's hard to believe April 29th. I think Petermac's analysis of weather is brilliant, however there are only 2 sources, Sagres and Faro, and both are a lot discrepant.

REPLY: There is far more weather evidence than the records at Sagres and Faro. I am now wondering how much of Petermac's evidence you have read and how much of the Last Photo threads on this forum you have read? Let me now introduce the satellite images that Petermac found for 29 April, 30 April, 1 May, 2 May and 3 May, all at NOON:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
SUNDAY (29 April)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
MONDAY (30 April)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
TUESDAY (1 May)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
WEDNESDAY (2 May)

[Sorry, I can't post 3 May's image, will add it later]

The satellite images (and there are others available for any other time on those five days) show one clear story, namely:

1. Sunday was clear, bright and warm all day all over Portugal and the Algarve

2. During Sunday night/Monday morning, a cold weather front moved eastwards, so that for the next four days, the weather was cloudy, cooler, windier and with occasional rain.

In addition Petermac provided contemporaneous weather observations by a PRAIA DE LUZ RESIDENT which confirmed all the other data about Sunday and the rest of the week.

We also have all the comments from the McCanns themselves and from their Tapas 7 friends which all confirm the cooler, cloudier, windier weather with occasional rain that followed the warm, sunny Sunday.

Also, if you check "Creche" registers, there are people going to the pool on May 3rd, both in the morning and the afternoon. On May 2nd, there are people going to the beach in the afternoon (no pool/beach on morning registers). On May 1st, there are people going to the pool in the morning, and to the pool and beach in the afternoon. On April 30th, there are people going to the pool in the morning (I'm not sure about afternoon). On April 29th no such registers. No registers don't mean no one went to pool or beach, but from those positive results in other days it seems McCanns didin't get that bad weather during holidays.

REPLY: I think we would like to see all the specific references for all that you say in that paragraph please. But even if you produce them all, that doesn't mean the weather was so awful that people couldn't do those things. Please show us the specific references, thank you.

If you look at this picture, you can see perfect reflex on lenses. I can't understand why Gerry's glasses should rotate it 90º.

REPLY: This has been fully demonstrated by a CMOMM member in a couple of excellent YouTube videos. I will find the links and post them when I've found them.

by **Tony Bennett** 27.08.18 10:03

FOLLOW-UP TO PREVIOUS POST:

Here is the promised link to one of the two YouTube videos made by CMOMM member Darren Ware:

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.][You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] was amazed to see that this little video, just 10 minutes long, has already been seen by over 259,000 viewers. And what a gem it is. On the video, you will hear that this is an EXPERT in digital photography, and surely for any sane person, this little video removes all doubt about how the vertical image in the sunglasses was produced (@ Textusa, please take note!).

Here is the satellite image for Thursday 3 May at Noon - important evidence that the 'Last Photo' was NOT taken that day but was in fact taken on Sunday 29 April:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

It has been argued that the Last Photo COULD HAVE BEEN taken during a short gap in the clouds on an otherwise cloudy day. But this is a very bad argument based on the ABSENCE of evidence.

If we examine the Last Photo...

1 Gerry is wearing sunglasses
2 Gerry is wearing a T-shirt
3 Gerry is wearing shorts
4  Amelie is wearing a sun-hat
5 Madeleine is wearing a sun-hat
6  Amelie is wearing light clothing
7 Madeleine is wearing light clothing
8 All are dipping their toes into the water
9 The shadows are strong, not coming through high cloud
10  There is a sheen of perspiration on Gerry's forehead.

People have tried to knock the idea that the Last Photo was taken on Sunday.

People (even including some well-known McCann-sceptics who should have known better) have mocked the claim as 'absurd' or a 'conspiracy theory'.

However, CMOMM looks at EVIDENCE. We weigh up the evidence.

Every time the Last Photo is looked at, the evidence surely points overwhelmingly to its having been taken on SUNDAY.

And there is a great weight of other evidence showing that something very serious may have happened to Madeleine on Sunday afternoon or evening.

Some people don't like us presenting this evidence.

by PLL 27.08.18 12:19

Tony, many thanks for your detailed considerations, which I have read carefully.

This is my opinion after reading it:

Angle: For calculating it, I did a right triangle with the line of sunray direction and vertical direction from the line between “azulejos”. I calculated 2º, but it can't be. I'd need to take a few pictures with shadows and do calculations by trial and error to find what went wrong.

Date and time: it's hard to believe they changed the date and forgot about time once it's as easy changing date or time and they had 3 weeks to work on it. There must be a more clear reason for the time, if it's wrong.

Breakfast: I have no idea why they switched breakfast to apartment. I only think it extraordinary that there are registers of Maddie in the "Creche", and Catriona testified for that under penalty of perjury and prison. She had to be bribed before disappearance, which is a lot risky for both parties. Also if they decide a criminal plot won’t fail by bribing people, they won’t bribe one single person and by bribing many people they risk non-collaborators and information leaking (unless they make a proposal one can’t refuse, like Mafia).

Weather: again, sources are a great distance from Praia da Luz and you can't guarantee weather at that day and time beyond any reasonable doubt. Satellite images aren't timed and from that, anyway, I can only guarantee there was bad weather in Northern Portugal, at most. This year (2018) weather was quite atypical in Portugal (and elsewhere in Europe, UK included, I think), cold and cloudy during Summer, and yet I often had hot and sunny periods during lunchtime.

"Creche" registers: if you bother checking those registers in PJ files you'll see that. I'll copy them and mark "pool" and "beach" where applicable as soon as I can.

Sunglasses: I'll check the video. Anyway, there's at least another picture of Gerry in those glasses that showed up in a British paper, but I couldn't recover it (only saw low resolution version in Google Images, couldn't open source).

29th April: After checking film "When Madeleine died" by Richard Hall, I think he's using 4 or 5 pictures to support most evidence. But "Processo" has more than 150 holiday pictures, as you can see at
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Unfortunately they are printed in black and white (not greyscale), which makes them useless for us. Amaral, who checked every picture in detail and interviewed every party in the plot as well as every piece of evidence said in an interview broadcasteded in 2016 that he was sure Madeleine vanished on May 3rd.

My humble opinion in summary:

Forensic evidence is subject to scientific protocol, and thus it must be able to be thoroughly challenged to pass validation. This is why I challenge it.

In court, Prosecutors of Republic won't be alone. They must face defendant's attorneys, who will challenge evidence to the furthest possible extent. The judge will decide under support of both parties, so evidence must be really strong.

I think MacCanns concealed Maddie's cadaver and they're lying, even though you may sometimes think otherwise unfortunately when I challenge evidence for the sake of validating it only. I hope we can some day find Maddie’s remains and jail McCanns. For the sake of Maddie’s due justice no evidence is ever enough discussed until that day.

by **Jill Havern** 27.08.18 14:34

PLL wrote:

Date and time: it's hard to believe they changed the date and forgot about time once it's as easy changing date or time and they had 3 weeks to work on it. There must be a more clear reason for the time, if it's wrong.

Weather: again, sources are a great distance from Praia da Luz and you can't guarantee weather at that day and time beyond any reasonable doubt. Satellite images aren't timed and from that, anyway, I can only guarantee there was bad weather in Northern Portugal, at most. This year (2018) weather was quite atypical in Portugal (and elsewhere in Europe, UK included, I think), cold and cloudy during Summer, and yet I often had hot and sunny periods during lunchtime.

The time shown is exactly Solar Zenith for 3/5/7. If TR was told to change the date to 3/5/7 and to make it mid-day, he would have the knowledge and experience NOT to make it 1200
but to make it Solar Noon which he got accurate, to the second. He would have access to an almanac

The Source for the Two photos piece is 5.59 km (3.47 miles, or 6110 yards) from the baby pool. How close to a freezing cold overcast and windy day can there be a minor heat wave ?

OF COURSE Satellite images ARE timed - to the nano-second. One billionth of a second.
That is just a very foolish statement to make.

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This one is labelled
MSG2-SEVI-MSG15-0201-NA-20070503131242.855000000Z-20110610184909-1280406
Indicating the identity of the satellite, of which there are several, and then
2007, 05 (=May) 03 (=3rd),131242 .85500000 (= 1312 Hrs and 42.8550000 seconds), Z = ZULU time, = GMT = Standard Universal time

PeterMac

by PLL 27.08.18 15:23

Jill, I have discussed evidence so far, not judging anyone as you may witness.

Images above don't have a time stamp, so I could I say they're timed? I know satellite images are timestamped and didin't say they aren't. I'm talking about images posted here.

What (or who) is TR?

The picture was clearly taken very close to solar noon, so why adjust time for that purpose and yet put it 1 hour ahead?

I don't know what you mean by 2-photo piece and would be very thankful for a link or further information.

This satellite pic is timestamped indeed.

Maybe I'm wrong again, but I think Praia da Luz lies within the red circle in the image, isn't that correct? If so, do you see any big clouds within the circle?

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by Guest 27.08.18 15:47

PLL wrote:"Creche" registers: if you bother checking those registers in PJ files you'll see that. I'll copy them and mark "pool" and "beach" where applicable as soon as I can.

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by **Jill Havern** 27.08.18 15:49

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by **Jill Havern** 27.08.18 15:54

PLL wrote:Jill, I have discussed evidence so far, not judging anyone as you may witness.

Images above don't have a time stamp, so I could I say they're timed? I know satellite images are timestamped and didin't say they aren't. I'm talking about images posted here.

What (or who) is TR?

The picture was clearly taken very close to solar noon, so why adjust time for that purpose and yet put it 1 hour ahead?

I don't know what you mean by 2-photo piece and would be very thankful for a link or further information.

This satellite pic is timestamped indeed.

Maybe I'm wrong again, but I think Praia da Luz lies within the red circle in the image, isn't that correct? If so, do you see any big clouds within the circle?

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Are you sure you're from Portugal? winkwink

by PLL 27.08.18 16:40

Verdi, I'm talking about "Creche" registration forms [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
There you can see some parents state location on pool or beach here and there.

Jill, now tell me where you see clouds covering Praia da Luz.

by **Tony Bennett** 27.08.18 17:03

PLL wrote:Verdi, I'm talking about "Creche" registration forms [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
There you can see some parents state location on pool or beach here and there.

Jill, now tell me where you see clouds covering Praia da Luz.

@ CMOMM Mods & Admin

Having considered PLL's posts to date on the Last Photo etc., I conclude as follows:

1. PLL does not, for whatever reason, like the idea that the Last Photo was taken on Sunday 29 April

2. S/he is trying to undermine the overwhelming evidence that it was taken on Sunday, with weak points
,
3A. S/he has not thoroughly read Petermac's posts and other literature on the Last Photo as well as s/he claims OR
3B. S/he HAS read all this and has joined the forum purely to undermine its central hypotheses on the case

4. PLL may be posting from IP addresses in Portugal but is probably a native English speaker.

by PLL 27.08.18 17:36

Please, Tony!

I only must thank your compliments on my English.

Please note this if you don't mind:

- I truly believe McCanns are liars and Maddie’s dead unfortunately according to British dogs evidence, but I believe that happened on May 3rd.

- I'm a deep admirer of Amaral and his work on this case in particular. I'd like to add that he truly believes Maddie died on May 3rd as far as I know from his interview in a Portuguese TV channel in 2016.

- I really don't believe so far she died on April 29th, whatever date last photo may have been taken.

- I analysed dogs reactions and last photo's genuineness and direction or solarrays from shadows, which are all congruent, and I thought that might of interest sharing.

- Like you and perhaps every single person who registered on the forum so far wish this case to be solved, the remains of unfortunate Maddie found, and responsible people be put on jail.

- Evidence is not that easy, as you know, first of all because it will be challenged to the slightest detail in a court of law and it's useless to think a judge will take any evidence for granted however you believe in it.

- I don't want to be impolite, but I think you're personally attacking me against forum rules and unfairly. I should also ask if it is mandatory to believe on April 29th thesis to register in your forum.