Re: The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?

by bobbin 05.08.17 13:34

roz wrote:There is a discrepancy there because Monday was the 30th.

I was just preparing a post noting this too. The Gorrods arrived and took the hire car on Sat 28th at 8 p.m. at Faro airport having flown in from Bristol. (thanks for info Verdi)
If the pool (last) photo of Madeleine was taken on 29th according to the only sunny opportunity after analysis of the weather for the week, then when did the Gorrods take possession of the apartment on the complex.
The video a few posts back indicates a clear similarity to the background on the 'make up photo'.
The wall is peach coloured because a blind is down, colouring the white wall via the sun. Therefore with the blind down there must have been sun. If such, then that would need to have been taken on the Sunday 29th.
Were the Gorrods in this apart on 29th or who else was there instead.
The comments on the video reflect pretty much the same discomfort that many posters here have expressed. bruising, eyes not very lively etc.
Gorrods might be surprised that they were being interviewed but given that one needs to know where they slept on the Sat night of arrival, and possibly the Sun night, when exactly did they have the keys to the apart with the background similar to the make up photo.
Didn't a young woman, leaving 5A carpark on 3rd May, having recalled the time on her watch, mention the fact that she had seen a grey car parked near 5A.

by willowthewisp 05.08.17 14:19

bobbin wrote:
roz wrote:There is a discrepancy there because Monday was the 30th.
I was just preparing a post noting this too. The Gorrods arrived and took the hire car on Sat 28th at 8 p.m. at Faro airport having flown in from Bristol. (thanks for info Verdi)
If the pool (last) photo of Madeleine was taken on 29th according to the only sunny opportunity after analysis of the weather for the week, then when did the Gorrods take possession of the apartment on the complex.
The video a few posts back indicates a clear similarity to the background on the 'make up photo'.
The wall is peach coloured because a blind is down, colouring the white wall via the sun. Therefore with the blind down there must have been sun. If such, then that would need to have been taken on the Sunday 29th.
Were the Gorrods in this apart on 29th or who else was there instead.
The comments on the video reflect pretty much the same discomfort that many posters here have expressed. bruising, eyes not very lively etc.
Gorrods might be surprised that they were being interviewed but given that one needs to know where they slept on the Sat night of arrival, and possibly the Sun night, when exactly did they have the keys to the apart with the background similar to the make up photo.
Didn't a young woman, leaving 5A carpark on 3rd May, having recalled the time on her watch, mention the fact that she had seen a grey car parked near 5A.

The Portugal PJ sniffer dogs led to the Car park area,then the Trail vanished?

by roz 05.08.17 14:27

I do not see any reference as to where the Gorrods stayed after their arrival at Faro airport on the April 28^th.
On the Ocean Club guest list, they are in apartment C5C from Monday 30^th April.

Is this what you were referring to?

Maria Manuela Martins da Silva
As they drove away, she recalled seeing a small car, perhaps grey in colour, parked close to the window of the McCann apartment.

by bobbin 05.08.17 14:35

roz wrote:I do not see any reference as to where the Gorrods stayed after their arrival at Faro airport on the April 28^th.
On the Ocean Club guest list, they are in apartment C5C from Monday 30^th April.

Maria Manuela Martins da Silva
As they drove away, she recalled seeing a small car, perhaps grey in colour, parked close to the window of the McCann apartment.

Thanks roz. I've just been through the thread on James and Charlotte Gorrod
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The question remains, how is the background on the 'make-up' photo so similar to the wall of the Gorrod's apartment, if the video (some posts back), is correct.
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by roz 05.08.17 15:05

Good question Bobbin. What I have to ask is:
If that little video was taken at apartment C5C, was the make-up photo of Madeleine taken after the Gorrods arrived to C5C on Monday 30^th?

by Guest 05.08.17 15:38

roz wrote:There is a discrepancy there because Monday was the 30th.

There are a number of discrepancies within the PJ files, particularly dates and times. Nothing can be safely concluded in the respect - sometimes I don't know what day it is, let alone what I was doing at any given time, even yesterday!

I can see no reason to presume that the Gorrod family arrived at the 'resort' on any specific day anymore than I can see why it's been presumed that they stayed at or owned a specific property within the locality. If anyone can lead me directly to a reliable source that can verify what I consider at present to be only presumptions, I would most appreciative.

I've seen too many cyber myths born out of nothing, sprout legs and then go toddling around cyberspace for months/years until they're recognized as fact.

All donations gratefully received.

by bobbin 05.08.17 15:39

roz wrote:Good question Bobbin. What I have to ask is:
If that little video was taken at apartment C5C, was the make-up photo of Madeleine taken after the Gorrods arrived to C5C on Monday 30^th?

or was it taken before they arrived? Did someone else have a key? Where did the Gorrod's sleep, with their two year old son, and Mrs. very pregnant and apparently no checked in luggage according to flight details, after arriving at 8 p.m. on the Saturday, hiring a car, but not apparently taking C5C till Sun/Mon.
How close is the C5C arrangement to the area that Goncalo Amaral talks about with an apartment that seemed to be being visited by K and G, but they (PJ) were not able to track its actual location down.

by Guest 05.08.17 15:49

bobbin wrote:apparently no checked in luggage according to flight details, after arriving at 8 p.m. on the Saturday, hiring a car, but not apparently taking C5C till Sun/Mon.

What flight details are you referring to - do you have a link to this?

The only reference to the Gorrods I've seen contained in the PJ files is the car hire agreement, which mentions the date and time of the family's EasyJet flight from Bristol.

ETA: The car rental paperwork suggest to me that the Gorrods pre-booked a car for collection on arrival at Faro airport - hence the flight detail.

by bobbin 05.08.17 16:10

Verdi wrote:
bobbin wrote:apparently no checked in luggage according to flight details, after arriving at 8 p.m. on the Saturday, hiring a car, but not apparently taking C5C till Sun/Mon.
What flight details are you referring to - do you have a link to this?

The only reference to the Gorrods I've seen contained in the PJ files is the car hire agreement, which mentions the date and time of the family's EasyJet flight from Bristol.

ETA: The car rental paperwork suggest to me that the Gorrods pre-booked a car for collection on arrival at Faro airport - hence the flight detail.

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It's in this thread. Discussed over several pages, copies of flight info given.

by roz 05.08.17 16:26

The Gorrods are on the Ocean Club guest list (see PJ Files) as arriving to C5C on Monday 30^th April to Sunday 6^th May.
That is not a presumption.
The Mc Canns are on the Ocean Club guest list (see PJ Files) as arriving to G5A on Saturday 28^th April to Saturday 5^th May.

That is not a presumption.

by Phoebe 05.08.17 20:52

I'm a bit confused here, for several reasons. I can find no arrivals record for the Gorrods in the P.J. files. I do however, see the list used by the Tapas staff dated 1/5/07 showing

Gorrod Charlotte, Owner, BKG, Chegada (arrival) 30/4/07 Saida (leaving) 6/5/07: 3 (persons) with a charge of 10 euro 50 cent owed to the Tapas.

However, the Mail Online on 15th August 07 mischievously claimed -

"But the Gorrods said they did not know they would be in the same resort and they did not travel with the Mark Warner holiday company or stay at the Ocean Club apartment"

If the Gorrods did indeed own their apartment and did not lease it to the Ocean Club then I presume there would be no need to contact them whenever they decided to use it. Perhaps to use the Tapas facilities they did have to give their details as owners and an error was made (the tapas records are a shambles). As for not bringing anything other than hand luggage, they possibly have a supply of clothing, towels, shoes, swimwear etc left in the apartment they own for when they holiday there?

by Guest 05.08.17 21:07

bobbin wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
It's in this thread. Discussed over several pages, copies of flight info given.

Are you referring to this shabby little piece of copied paper?

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Have to admit I thought this to be related to the booking of a hired car. I'm quite prepared to accept otherwise, having never traveled with EasyJet I've really no idea about their administration - it's not very professional is it? Still, I guess like everything - you get what you pay for.

Having said that, the Gorrods arrival in Portugal is not my real concern, it was the reference to having no baggage that piqued my interest + the presumption that they didn't arrive at the Praia da Luz complex until Sunday 29th or Monday 30th April.

by Guest 05.08.17 21:12

roz wrote:The Gorrods are on the Ocean Club guest list (see PJ Files) as arriving to C5C on Monday 30^th April to Sunday 6^th May.
That is not a presumption.
The Mc Canns are on the Ocean Club guest list (see PJ Files) as arriving to G5A on Saturday 28^th April to Saturday 5^th May.

That is not a presumption.

I have not questioned the holiday booking for the McCann family - I'm already aware of that.

Would you be so good as to do as I previously asked and provide a link to the PJ files that specifies the Gorrod family's arrival at the Praia da Luz resort?

Thank you in anticipation.

by bobbin 05.08.17 21:15

Phoebe wrote:I'm a bit confused here, for several reasons. I can find no arrivals record for the Gorrods in the P.J. files. I do however, see the list used by the Tapas staff dated 1/5/07 showing

Gorrod Charlotte, Owner, BKG, Chegada (arrival) 30/4/07 Saida (leaving) 6/5/07: 3 (persons) with a charge of 10 euro 50 cent owed to the Tapas.

However, the Mail Online on 15th August 07 mischievously claimed -

"But the Gorrods said they did not know they would be in the same resort and they did not travel with the Mark Warner holiday company or stay at the Ocean Club apartment"

If the Gorrods did indeed own their apartment and did not lease it to the Ocean Club then I presume there would be no need to contact them whenever they decided to use it. Perhaps to use the Tapas facilities they did have to give their details as owners and an error was made (the tapas records are a shambles). As for not bringing anything other than hand luggage, they possibly have a supply of clothing, towels, shoes, swimwear etc left in the apartment they own for when they holiday there?

I too am confused. If they were the owners they would not need to show a booking arrival in their own place, so why would they have been claimed to arrive and take their booking from Monday to the following Sunday.
If they arrived in Faro on the Saturday 8 p.m. where did they go, with, presuming they were owners and had left their clothes in situ, just enough for a night stop elsewhere. Did the police establish where they had spent Saturday and Sunday nights.
Given that the background in the photo appears to be very similar to the wall of the Gorrod apartment and given that the sun blind was pulled down, and the photo was taken in a sunny time, then if the photo was taken at the Gorrods, was it before they arrived at their (own?) apartment, or some time after.
Did the police enquire as to if other people were using the apartment, delaying the Gorrods ability to use their (own?)place or did they go elsewhere first, or did they arrive in their (own ?)place earlier and it was not reported as such, since it would not be Mark Warner renting the place out ? or other reason ? Very confusing.

by Phoebe 05.08.17 22:29

@ bobbin. What I'm getting at is that as owners of the apartment they would be free to come and go to their apartment as they pleased without having to inform the O.C. However, they may well have had to inform the Tapas that they were staying in order to gain access to these facilities which were owned by O.C. Perhaps they had already been in their apartment on Sunday but did not use the Tapas facilities before the 30th and this was erroneously put down as their arrival date. They would have told the Tapas they would be using the pool, bar, etc until they left on the 6th. I would be wary of stating that the make up photo was taken in any specific location. All there is to go on is a yellowish wall and these are not exclusive to the O.C. or indeed Portugal. The blue item in the background is also too insubstantial for anyone to say for certain what it is. Some feel It is a T shirt, others a corner of plastic furniture and others still a paddle.

by **sharonl** 05.08.17 22:57

Was Madeleines' Make-Up Photo taken on Sunday and connected to her death?

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I think it’s worth summarising at this point some of the main reasons why the Make-Up Photo is so suspicious and why it may well have been taken on the very same days as the Last Photo (i.e. Sunday 29 April).
I can think of 23 reasons.
1.      When it was first published, it was by Jon Corner, not the McCanns
2.      The McCanns had had three years in which to publish it. They did not do so
3.      When the photo was published, they made up a story about it being taken when Madeleine was ‘playing with Mummy’s dressing-up box’, which was clearly untrue
4.      They have never disclosed who took that photo
5.      The photo has clearly been cropped
6.      It is possible that they themselves do not know who took that photo
7.      We do not know why Jon Corner chose to publish not only the Make-Up Photo but also, in the same short film, the ‘Ice Cream’ photo and the ‘Skirting Board’ photo
8.      Dozens of people commented on social media that the Make-Up Photo looked like a ‘Lolita’ photo and even the Independent newspaper and Mark Williams-Thomas (!) condemned it as highly inappropriate
9.      The stucco background (whether ‘cream’, ‘yellow’, ‘ochre’ or ‘orange’) is untypical of the British Isles but very typical of the Portuguese Algarve coast
10. Excluding the controversial ‘Tennis Balls’ photo (which was apparently taken by two different people on two different days), we have NO photos of Madeleine taken after lunchtime on Sunday 29 April – except perhaps this one, the Make-Up Photo
There are also these very specific reasons for thinking that an adult dressed and made up Madeleine and that the Make-Up Photo was taken on the same day (Sunday) as the Last Photo:
11. Madeleine’s hair length is the same as on the Last Photo
12. Madeleine’s hair colour is the same as on the Last Photo
13. Out of the dozens of videos and photos we have of Madeleine, hardly any have hair beads on her
14. Both the Last Photo and the Make-Up Photo show Madeleine wearing hair beads. They may not be identical, or in the same place on her head, but clearly the same adult who dressed Madeleine in a hair bead for the Last Photo, could have put on another one for the Make-Up Photo
15. Madeleine could not have put the necklace on herself
16. Madeleine has blue eyeshadow on her, which is extremely unlikely to have been applied by herself
17. It is very likely clear, especially when the photo is enlarged, that Madeleine has eye-liner carefully applied to her skin below the eye
18. Similarly, someone seems also to have applied eye-liner to her skin above the eye
19. According to some who have viewed this photo, Madeleine might be wearing lipstick
20. In the Make-Up Photo, Madeleine is wearing a pink dress or top with shoulder straps. This could be the same garment as she is seen wearing on the Last Photo
21. Madeleine is not smiling; she looks stiff, miserable and afraid
22. Madeleine’s pupils are very large
23. She seems to stare out at the camera with a kind of catatonic stare.

by roz 06.08.17 6:21

I will be more precise as to those details:
PJ files – Mark Warner Ocean Club employees – Guest lists.
OC Check-in lists used by Tapas restaurant

03 Volume 111a Page 616
C5C T2 Gorrod Charlotte Owner Bkg. 30/04/07   06/05/07
03 Volume 111a Page 617
G5A T2 McCann Gerald Patrick MW Co.UK                             28/04/07    05/05/07
   -     T1 O’Brien, Russell   MW Co.UK   28/04/07    05/05/07

(As far as I understand it, Owner Booking means booked by owner, the person named is renting it)

I can only say what I see – the Gorrods are booked to arrive at C5C on Monday 30^th April
Can you Verdi provide a link to the PJ files that specifies the Gorrods family’s arrival at the Praia da Luz resort? Perhaps you have some facts that I am not seeing?

by worriedmum 06.08.17 20:48

For the position of the black wall-mounted object on the 'last photograph' to be the lamp on the wall of the Gorrod's apartment, surely Madeleine would have to be stood on a chair or other object to make her the right height?

by polyenne 06.08.17 20:54

I view the photo as being taken from a low level as though the photographer is kneeling or laying down with Madeleine looking down her nose, so to speak

by Guest 06.08.17 21:01

roz wrote:OC Check-in lists used by Tapas restaurant

It doesn't signify.

The Gorrod family were traveling independently, not through a package tour company - maybe they wanted to use the Ocean Club facilities so signed in on 30th April, maybe they didn't. Whether they own the property or whether they privately rented the property for a weeks holiday is no ones business but theirs, least of all the Ocean Club proprietors.

So what if they did fly in on Saturday 28th April but didn't arrive at their holiday accommodation until Monday 30th April, they hired a car from Faro airport, they are footloose and fancy free, at liberty to go wherever and do whatever they like. They are not required to justify their movements to anyone.

The Gorrods were not interviewed by the PJ as witnesses, they were not considered to be of interest to the investigation. The car rental was of interest but that is where it begins and ends. Theorizing on nothing but wild imagination leads nowhere but devaluing the true purpose of CMoMM. If and when something is uncovered that may implicate the Gorrod family then I'll gladly take another look but in the interim this crazy speculation based on nothing, should be curbed.

There is a very active force within and without trying to destroy CMoMM, please don't give them ammunition.

by polyenne 06.08.17 21:11

There is a very active force within and without trying to destroy CMoMM, please don't give them ammunition

Please elaborate "very active force within"

by Guest 06.08.17 23:10

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Goodness me - please don't be perturbed, I didn't mean to alarm anyone. Rest assured the forum owner, with the help of the support team, do everything possible to ensure the safety of CMoMM members when online - genuine members have nothing to worry about in this respect.

Members can however help to lighten the load by keeping CMoMM's integrity and reputation on track by restricting commentary to fact, intelligence and informed debate. A modicum of self-restraint isn't too much to ask, I'm sure all will agree.

by roz 07.08.17 6:13

The possibility of the make-up photo of Madeleine being taken at C5C was mentioned further up this thread re the video clip of an apartment (clip by Ben Salmon I think). That was my little bone of contention as the Gorrods were booked to stay at C5C from Monday 30th (and the make-up photo is suggested here on CMoMM as being taken on Sunday 29th).
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Also from James and Charlotte Gorrod thread here:
British family caught up in the investigation say detectives have cleared them of any link to the case. Solicitor JamesGorrod, from Exeter, and his family happened to be in the resort at the same time, but never met the McCann’s.
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James Gorrod, 34, a solicitor from Exeter, said that detectives had cleared him and his wife of any link to her disappearance. They had raised suspicion because they were a couple who were on holiday with the McCann’s and had hired a car with a child seat. However, it transpired that they were travelling with their two-year-old son.
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I personally do not believe that the Gorrods were present when the make-up photo of Madeleine was taken (wherever it was taken), or were involved in any way with what happened to Madeleine.

I do believe that they met up with their friend Jane on Monday 30^th around the Tapas area.

by Guest 07.08.17 12:02

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A fair and well reasoned response if I might say - it's so easy to sometimes go wandering off into the twilight zone by other comments and association of thoughts, I do it myself. At the risk of being repetitive, it does however tend to take a topic off track and ends in the propagation of unsubstantiated myth. Some such nonsense, born in this way in the very early days, is still being repeated and seemingly believed, to this day.

On the flip side, there are those who will only believe what they want to believe. No matter how many times you present facts, figures etc. makes no difference, they will still believe their fantasy. CMoMM is no place for this mindset, not only does it damage the forums true purpose but it compromises all the years of hard graft volunteered by a number of diligent diehards, named and anonymous, whose only goal is to see justice for little Madeleine McCann - so often forgotten in the war of words. Twitter is an ideal breeding ground for unmitigated nonsense, slander and unacceptable public behaviour and of course, there are a number of blogs and fora out there who happily promote nonsensical theorizing and 'cesspit' [sic] bashing - no shortage of platforms for those with idle hands! I like to think CMoMM is a more sophisticated venue that actively discourages the kind of behaviour seen elsewhere.

The press of course are always on the look out for anything connected to the mystery of Madeleine McCann that they can turn into juicy sensationalism - they are not to be trusted! Less so when there information emanates from an unspecified 'source'.

See - there you go, I'm digressing! Back on topic ....

by roz 07.08.17 14:15

I must say that I do have my doubts as to where and when that make-up photograph of Madeleine was taken, that is whether it was taken in Portugal at all.
But the one thing about this forum is that we are invited to discuss, debate, put forward our thoughts and theories - even we agree to disagree.

by dartinghero 09.08.17 1:40

Having just read the thread, my two penn'orth for what it's worth;

I think hair length is the same in the 3 photos.
I don't necessarily think an adult had to put a necklace on - it looks like a child's play necklace rather than a proper accessory.
I don't think her pupils look dilated with the photo at normal size - they start to appear so (indistinct pupil edges) when the picture is enlarged.
It looks to me like she is wearing eyeliner (which would definitely require an adult to apply) but I don't see lipstick.
The black thing on the wall looks like it may be a bracket for a light to me.
The blue thing in the bottom corner of the pic - I initially thought was a plastic chair but the more I look at it, could be a top of a shoulder.
Preparing for a telling off for this last bit, but here goes: the photo looks to me like it wasn't taken in England/Ireland in April. The quality of the light looks much warmer than the harsher light of the UK. I realise that the last bit isn't scientific :-\

Upthread there is a quote from the bewk saying that KM sat down with notepad and pen making notes about the dated holiday photos - what, all 5 of them?!

by Guest 09.08.17 12:00

dartinghero wrote:Upthread there is a quote from the bewk saying that KM sat down with notepad and pen making notes about the dated holiday photos - what, all 5 of them?!

That merits quote of the day!

by **sandancer** 09.08.17 13:47

Verdi wrote:
dartinghero wrote:Upthread there is a quote from the bewk saying that KM sat down with notepad and pen making notes about the dated holiday photos - what, all 5 of them?!
That merits quote of the day!

Surely it should only be 4 photos , cos no one can remember who took the Tennis Balls photo ? thinking

by JRP 09.08.17 15:43

sandancer wrote:
Verdi wrote:
dartinghero wrote:Upthread there is a quote from the bewk saying that KM sat down with notepad and pen making notes about the dated holiday photos - what, all 5 of them?!
That merits quote of the day!

Surely it should only be 4 photos , cos no one can remember who took the Tennis Balls photo ?

Must have taken ages.
Saturday, Saturday, Saturday, Sunday

by polyenne 09.08.17 15:47

Don't forget the "off-site" image notations, most probably from their Scottish office

The Mystery of the Make-Up Photo - was it taken on the same day as the Last Photo?