Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday?

by pennylane 06.12.15 21:49

@ verdi,

I too believe the McCanns/tapasniks are being protected (imo) by the Home Office, however, I don't think the Home Office has had the full on influence it wished to exert over the Portuguese investigation, hence the introduction of Operation Grange.

by Guest 06.12.15 23:16

pennylane wrote:@ verdi,

I too believe the McCanns/tapasniks are being protected (imo) by the Home Office, however, I don't think the Home Office has had the full on influence it wished to exert over the Portuguese investigation, hence the introduction of Operation Grange.

Yes, Goncalo Amaral - the proverbial thorn in the side!

by Guest 06.12.15 23:19

Thursday 3rd May 2007

The daughter of Jane Tanner and Russell O'Brien, Ella O'Brien was signed in at the Lobster Club @ 2:30 pm by Russell O'Brien (their other daughter was said to be ill). After a tennis session and a brief stay at their apartment (her other half RO'B was sailing with Matthew Oldfield) Jane Tanner took their sick child to the beach with other members of the Tapas group, leaving daughter Ella at the crèche. Tanner specifically notes that when she went to the beach she saw Gerald McCann and Kate Healy having a personal tennis lesson. No children were with them.

According to Jane Tanner's witness statement, whilst the gang were at the beach, Russell returned from his sailing and went straight to the crèche to collect Ella. They (I assume Russell and daughter Ella) then went to the beach to join the rest of the gang until 6:00-6:30 pm. However, if you look at the crèche register for the afternoon of 3rd May, Ella O'Brien was signed out by none other than Cat nanny @ 4:30 pm !?!

No doubt this has been discussed a million times in the past but considering the emphasis throughout the week about the McCann family doing their own thing and there being little or no evidence of their whereabouts at any stage of the week, least of all Madeleine's presence, could this be the reason Ella was left out of the beach trip - as were the McCann family?

If going to the beach as a group, wouldn't any right minded mother want their child/ren with them? Why did she leave Ella at the crèche? I'm not prepared to go along with the substitute child theory but considering the apparent likeness between the O'Brien/Tanner child, could this be a reason she wasn't signed out for the beach trip - because Madeleine wasn't legitimately signed in?

by joyce1938 06.12.15 23:30

I wonder when the crèche were written, such a messy affair. Can we really trust what has been written there? I read also that the problem we have thought about, which was last day Maddie was seen at tennis lessons, that the class was split into two and some did it Tuesday and the others did it Thursday. Would that account for trying to work out which day it took place. Just thinking. joyce1938

by cbeagle 07.12.15 4:31

The list [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] provides a few posts back puts further doubt on Vicky Boyd's description of meeting Kate & Madeleine on May 3rd, since she is not listed in group 2 (or any group).

by pennylane 07.12.15 9:33

Verdi wrote:
pennylane wrote:@ verdi,

I too believe the McCanns/tapasniks are being protected (imo) by the Home Office, however, I don't think the Home Office has had the full on influence it wished to exert over the Portuguese investigation, hence the introduction of Operation Grange.
Yes, Goncalo Amaral - the proverbial thorn in the side!

Indeed verdi, an intensely sharp thorn that strikes fear at the very heart of Team McScam!

by willowthewisp 07.12.15 10:35

pennylane wrote:
Verdi wrote:
pennylane wrote:@ verdi,

I too believe the McCanns/tapasniks are being protected (imo) by the Home Office, however, I don't think the Home Office has had the full on influence it wished to exert over the Portuguese investigation, hence the introduction of Operation Grange.
Yes, Goncalo Amaral - the proverbial thorn in the side!
Indeed verdi, an intensely sharp thorn that strikes fear at the very heart of Team McScam!

Hi Pennylane,This shows just how corrupt the UK Governments have been complicit in the cover up and I doubt very much that "Operation Grange" has been an investigation into the process, only one outcome"Abduction"?
We can only hope that the people of Portugal hold steadfast to their cause of trying to find the Truth of what happened to Madeleine McCann whilst on holiday April 28 -3 May 2007 at the Ocean Club Apartments,run by Mark Warner complex?
What ever evidence the UK police have acquired will be be put on the do not "Dust shelf" and probably given a D notice on National Security grounds?

by j.rob 07.12.15 13:00

The vital time-frame is Sunday. After Sunday lunch-time the McCanns' deviated from the routine followed by the rest of the group and chose to have both breakfast and lunch alone in their apartment - so they say. There is not even any account of Madeleine or the twins having either breakfast at the Millennium or lunch at the Paynes apartment AFTER Sunday lunch-time.

Why would the McCanns alone deviate from the routine followed by the others? This is suspicious, imo.

Something happened - probably on Sunday night once the vino had kicked in, perhaps. Someone lashed out, imo, with devastating consequences.

By the time of the alleged abduction, Madeleine was dead. Just because *something* happened on Monday it does not mean that Madeleine died then. I believe she died later on in the week but almost definitely by Thursday evening because otherwise Matt would not have flagged up the (irony?) of searching along Cemetary Road in his rogatory. His brain would simply not have leaked this if he had been genuinely searching for an alive child. Death would not be on his mind at all. The Mcs and Tapas would have been frantically searching for clues as to what had happened and who had taken her.

Sunday *something happened*, Monday and Tuesday there may well have been frantic attempts to decide what to do or not to but by Wednesday a collective decision had been taken to follow a certain course of action.

The (faked) abduction went ahead on Thursday evening. I think it could possibly have been planned for slightly earlier in the week but extra time was needed by TM to sort out 'the disaster'.

I

by Carrry On Doctor 07.12.15 13:06

j.rob wrote:The vital time-frame is Sunday. After Sunday lunch-time the McCanns' deviated from the routine followed by the rest of the group and chose to have both breakfast and lunch alone in their apartment - so they say. There is not even any account of Madeleine or the twins having either breakfast at the Millennium or lunch at the Paynes apartment AFTER Sunday lunch-time.

Why would the McCanns alone deviate from the routine followed by the others? This is suspicious, imo.

Something happened - probably on Sunday night once the vino had kicked in, perhaps. Someone lashed out, imo, with devastating consequences.

By the time of the alleged abduction, Madeleine was dead. Just because *something* happened on Monday it does not mean that Madeleine died then. I believe she died later on in the week but almost definitely by Thursday evening because otherwise Matt would not have flagged up the (irony?) of searching along Cemetary Road in his rogatory. His brain would simply not have leaked this if he had been genuinely searching for an alive child. Death would not be on his mind at all. The Mcs and Tapas would have been frantically searching for clues as to what had happened and who had taken her.

Sunday *something happened*, Monday and Tuesday there may well have been frantic attempts to decide what to do or not to but by Wednesday a collective decision had been taken to follow a certain course of action.

The (faked) abduction went ahead on Thursday evening. I think it could possibly have been planned for slightly earlier in the week but extra time was needed by TM to sort out 'the disaster'.

I

Quite possibly @j.rob

In red....what makes you think that ?

Thanks

by pennylane 07.12.15 13:33

willowthewisp wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Verdi wrote:
pennylane wrote:@ verdi,

I too believe the McCanns/tapasniks are being protected (imo) by the Home Office, however, I don't think the Home Office has had the full on influence it wished to exert over the Portuguese investigation, hence the introduction of Operation Grange.
Yes, Goncalo Amaral - the proverbial thorn in the side!
Indeed verdi, an intensely sharp thorn that strikes fear at the very heart of Team McScam!
Hi Pennylane,This shows just how corrupt the UK Governments have been complicit in the cover up and I doubt very much that "Operation Grange" has been an investigation into the process, only one outcome"Abduction"?
We can only hope that the people of Portugal hold steadfast to their cause of trying to find the Truth of what happened to Madeleine McCann whilst on holiday April 28 -3 May 2007 at the Ocean Club Apartments,run by Mark Warner complex?
What ever evidence the UK police have acquired will be be put on the do not "Dust shelf" and probably given a D notice on National Security grounds?

Hi willow,

I totally agree with you, and also very much hope Portugal hold steadfast, and that they do not hand over even a smidgen of the information Operation Grange so desperately and obviously lust after!

by skyrocket 07.12.15 15:43

@jrob said: By the time of the alleged abduction, Madeleine was dead. Just because *something* happened on Monday it does not mean that Madeleine died then. I believe she died later on in the week but almost definitely by Thursday evening because otherwise Matt would not have flagged up the (irony?) of searching along Cemetary Road in his rogatory. His brain would simply not have leaked this if he had been genuinely searching for an alive child. Death would not be on his mind at all. The Mcs and Tapas would have been frantically searching for clues as to what had happened and who had taken her.

Interesting location is Cemetery Road. Comes up more than once. As you say, MO refers to it in his rogatory statement:

And they put him in the car and drove back up to the apartment. And then, erm, after that we did more headless running around, checked on Grace, erm, you know, at times we were sort of like crossing each other, there was Dave, and running on my own, and sort of the other way, and I then went out on the coast road a bit further down, erm, I don't know what we thought we could do, but it was just better than being close to them and being there, erm, and so we ran out on that, I think this road unfortunately is called, erm, which road is it, Cemetery Road I think it's called, I seem to remember noticing it because it seemed like a horrible, I think it's this bit here'.

4078 'It covers quite a lot of area'.

Reply 'You're basically out on, I think this is Cemetery Road or one of these roads and it just takes you out down the coast and there's lots of new build sort of resorts going up'.
4078 'And all the areas that made a search, with hindsight or at the time, there was nothing that you can think of that might be relevant to''
Reply 'No, because as you went on you'd meet other groups, there was Nathan, one of the waterfront people, who managed the waterfront, who we'd met previous on a MARK WARNER holiday, so, you know, you'd sort of cross paths with people who were sort of searching and then, you know, it'd get deserted and there were dogs barking at you as you sort of wandered around, because some of the apartments were occupied and some were still being built, so there was a kind of a bit of, a sort of a lonely sort of isolated place, but, you know, it was all very sort of close, and there was nothing, you know, looking for sort of like funny parked cars or, erm, you know, anything really that seemed a bit odd'.

[size=18][size=16][size=18]Actually Cemetery Road is accessed by turning left from Ocean Club Block 5/6 car park and then turning right (north) at the corner and then first left. It runs sort of parallel to the coast (SWW ish).

It appears again in the pj files under:

[/size][/size][/size]
Letter direct to GA from DCCB dated 27 September 2007 (Vol 11 p2945):
With respect to possible sightings of the father at two buildings near/next to the Luz cemetery, various apartments were available in those buildings; it could not be ascertained which, if any, apartment may have been of interest.

Can't post any photos but if you open the following 2 links you will see firstly the google map satellite image of the back of a large property which is pretty much directly opposite Block 6 of the Ocean Club complex. Note the rather impressive masonic pyramid. The house itself has what looks like a weathervane in the form of a cockerel on its roof and 3 Greek style mini temples in the grounds next to the pyramid. Again all masonic symbols. The second link opens the google image of the entrance to the property with the 2 masonic pillars on Cemetery Road.

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Not saying there is any connection at all but the pyramid intrigues me! If you look carefully it looks like the top section might pivot open (another masonic symbol).

Apologies if skewing off topic and for the spacing/sizing (which is driving me nutty - hope you can read it all).

by j.rob 07.12.15 18:12

and so we ran out on that, I think this road unfortunately is called, erm, which road is it, Cemetery Road I think it's called, I seem to remember noticing it because it seemed like a horrible, I think it's this bit here'.

4078 'It covers quite a lot of area'.

Reply 'You're basically out on, I think this is Cemetery Road or one of these roads and it just takes you out down the coast and there's lots of new build sort of resorts going up'.

4078 'And all the areas that made a search, with hindsight or at the time, there was nothing that you can think of that might be relevant to''

Oh dear! That's an awful lot of brain leak.

"That" (road).

"unfortunately".

"erm".

Naming it not once but twice!

"I seem to remember noticing it..."

"it seemed like a horrible" (coincidence? irony?)

In spite of what the McCanns and Tapas say about Tweedledum and Tweedledee, notice how the police officer gets Matt to run rings around him.

Following the considerable 'brain leak' above about the (irony? coincidence?) of noticing the road was called Cemetary Road which the interviewing officer cannot fail to have noticed, he then adroitly plays into Matt's hands by seemingly innocently asking: "There was nothing that you could think of that might be relevant."

Ha!

Matt's already told him what was relevant.

Presumably Cemetary Road takes you to the Cemetary and if it happens to go down to the coast that was not its raison d'etre otherwise it would be called 'Coast Road' or something.

by j.rob 07.12.15 18:47

In reply to Carry on Doctor (I like the name by the way).

I used to think that it was possible that on Thursday evening at the time of the alleged abduction Madeleine was still alive. Not happy and well because I am sure something bad happened earlier in the week. But perhaps injured/ill/sedated/abused or a combination thereof.

She might have been taken to a 'safe house' somewhere in order to decide what to do, for instance.

(But then the dog alerts suggest someone died in apartment 5A and a body had been in the Renault Scenic. So how could it be because apartment 5A was sealed off as a crime scene? Why on earth would anyone want to bring a body into apartment 5A after May 4th?)

Tn the early media interviews I got the impression that Kate (and possibly Gerry) was not sure whether Madeleine was alive or dead. It is only towards the end of May that the language used and other indicators suggest that Kate, Gerry and Clarence Mitchell know she is dead. I do suspect that Kate was not quite in on ht whole picture.

However, there are quite a few indicators, imo, that the Mcs and at least some of the Tapas knew that Madeleine was dead by Thursday evening.

1. David Payne in one rogatory claims he visited apartment 5A early that evening and all three children looked like angels. I think he even says something about being dressed in white. He over-embellishes how they all look so happy and well cared-for. Just way too much information here. If there was nothing suspicious he would not have been over-emotive like that. If he genuinely wanted to help a police investigation find an alive child, he would have been very factual, very to the point.

2. Matt in his rogatory flags up Cemetary Road not once but twice. He says that he noticed the name of the road at the time because is seemed a terrible (irony/coincidence). Death is on his mind. This suggests to me that at the time of the searching that night Matt knows that Madeleine is dead.

3. Kate and Gerry, when police arrive, are wailing as if they were Arabs in prayer. This must signify utter desperation. It suggests to me that their child is dead and they are terrified of what the police might discover.

4. Kate and Gerry call for a priest that night. You do that when someone is dead or about to die. One might theorize that they were unable to call a priest for the last rites so they did the next best thing.

5. The language used by Kate in particular is often strongly suggestive of a death, imo.

On discovering the open window and raised shutters: "Nausea, terror, disbelief, fear. Icy fear. Dear God, no! Please, no!"

"Madeleine's gone!"

"We've let her down."

In media interviews too, when describing the open window and whooshing curtains: "I just knew. She had been taken."

Kate describes how she went back to the Paynes apartment late that Thursday night or early that Friday morning and "the cold black night enveloped us all for what seemed like an eternity. Dianne and I sat there staring at each other, still as statues. 'It's so dark,' she said again and again. 'I want the light to come'. I felt exactly the same way.

I think that this is the language of death.

Kate writes how Gerry keeps saying to her: "Kate, we need to rest."

Why would you need to rest if you knew that an abductor had just stolen your child? That would be the last thing on your mind in the hours after 'the abduction'?

by NickE 08.12.15 19:29

j.rob wrote:In reply to Carry on Doctor (I like the name by the way).

I used to think that it was possible that on Thursday evening at the time of the alleged abduction Madeleine was still alive. Not happy and well because I am sure something bad happened earlier in the week. But perhaps injured/ill/sedated/abused or a combination thereof.

She might have been taken to a 'safe house' somewhere in order to decide what to do, for instance.

(But then the dog alerts suggest someone died in apartment 5A and a body had been in the Renault Scenic. So how could it be because apartment 5A was sealed off as a crime scene? Why on earth would anyone want to bring a body into apartment 5A after May 4th?)

Tn the early media interviews I got the impression that Kate (and possibly Gerry) was not sure whether Madeleine was alive or dead. It is only towards the end of May that the language used and other indicators suggest that Kate, Gerry and Clarence Mitchell know she is dead. I do suspect that Kate was not quite in on ht whole picture.

However, there are quite a few indicators, imo, that the Mcs and at least some of the Tapas knew that Madeleine was dead by Thursday evening.

1. David Payne in one rogatory claims he visited apartment 5A early that evening and all three children looked like angels. I think he even says something about being dressed in white. He over-embellishes how they all look so happy and well cared-for. Just way too much information here. If there was nothing suspicious he would not have been over-emotive like that. If he genuinely wanted to help a police investigation find an alive child, he would have been very factual, very to the point.

2. Matt in his rogatory flags up Cemetary Road not once but twice. He says that he noticed the name of the road at the time because is seemed a terrible (irony/coincidence). Death is on his mind. This suggests to me that at the time of the searching that night Matt knows that Madeleine is dead.

3. Kate and Gerry, when police arrive, are wailing as if they were Arabs in prayer. This must signify utter desperation. It suggests to me that their child is dead and they are terrified of what the police might discover.

4. Kate and Gerry call for a priest that night. You do that when someone is dead or about to die. One might theorize that they were unable to call a priest for the last rites so they did the next best thing.

5. The language used by Kate in particular is often strongly suggestive of a death, imo.

On discovering the open window and raised shutters: "Nausea, terror, disbelief, fear. Icy fear. Dear God, no! Please, no!"

"Madeleine's gone!"

"We've let her down."

In media interviews too, when describing the open window and whooshing curtains: "I just knew. She had been taken."

Kate describes how she went back to the Paynes apartment late that Thursday night or early that Friday morning and "the cold black night enveloped us all for what seemed like an eternity. Dianne and I sat there staring at each other, still as statues. 'It's so dark,' she said again and again. 'I want the light to come'. I felt exactly the same way.

I think that this is the language of death.

Kate writes how Gerry keeps saying to her: "Kate, we need to rest."

Why would you need to rest if you knew that an abductor had just stolen your child? That would be the last thing on your mind in the hours after 'the abduction'?

"We've let her down." = "Look here,we left her alone" (No neglect no abduction)

"Why did you not come last night when Sean and I were crying?" = "Hey UK,look here....she was still around in the morning May 2"

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Bad actors or a bad manuscript....or a combo.

by Joannep43 08.12.15 21:10

@j.rob imo interesting observations there in your posts.I agree with a lot that you have written. I have been reading the Rogatory statements and what has jumped out to me is this... Each one of the Tapas group were asked how much they saw of Madeleiene during the week or when did they last see her. What I find strange is that SOME of the Tapas group are not exactly certain when they last saw Madeleiene. Some say they "think" a certain time or day was when they last set eyes on her. It got me thinking that when anyone has lost a relative or someone we have spent time with, we always remember the last time we saw them. We usually remember that last meeting,the last conversation,or glimpse of them with clarity. Even decades later we still remember where we were when we last saw a particular person.Its usually etched in our memories, but not the case here with some of the Tapas group.

by j.rob 08.12.15 21:59

"We've let her down." = "Look here,we left her alone" (No neglect no abduction)

"Why did you not come last night when Sean and I were crying?" = "Hey UK,look here....she was still around in the morning May 2"

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Bad actors or a bad manuscript....or a combo.
------

To 'let someone down' I think can be used by medics to mean that someone had died (but possibly could have been saved?)

I actually think there was neglect. Okay, the baby listening arrangements might not have been quite as described but I do think there was some negligence.

Remember Gerry's strange comment in the Madeleine was Here series: 'Not being here at the time it happened increased the chance of it happening,' or words to that effect.

We know he is not talking about an abduction - so what was it that DID happen (to Madeleine) when they weren't there?

But agree - bad actors who messed up the script, imo.

by j.rob 08.12.15 22:30

Joannep43 wrote:@j.rob imo interesting observations there in your posts.I agree with a lot that you have written. I have been reading the Rogatory statements and what has jumped out to me is this... Each one of the Tapas group were asked how much they saw of Madeleiene during the week or when did they last see her. What I find strange is that SOME of the Tapas group are not exactly certain when they last saw Madeleiene. Some say they "think" a certain time or day was when they last set eyes on her. It got me thinking that when anyone has lost a relative or someone we have spent time with, we always remember the last time we saw them. We usually remember that last meeting,the last conversation,or glimpse of them with clarity. Even decades later we still remember where we were when we last saw a particular person.Its usually etched in our memories, but not the case here with some of the Tapas group.

I suspect that each and every one of the Tapas group remember EXACTLY when they last saw Madeleine alive and some I suspect will never forget having seen her, tragically, dead imo.

All the Tapas accounts of that week are complete fairy tales, imo.

My suspicion is that the last time Madeleine was with the group (assuming she ever even went on that holiday - sometimes I wonder!) was Sunday lunch-time at the Paynes' apartment. The McCann routine changed after this and the family chose to have both breakfast and lunch at their apartment after Sunday. This in itself is suspicious I think.

I imagine that the Tapas group's vagueness about when they last saw Madeleine is effectively to disguise the truth about what happened that week.

What about all the children that were there that week, though? Not just the McCanns and Tapas children but there were also other children who might have seen Madeleine on Saturday and/or Sunday? In terms of TM children those who were closest to Madeleine would have been the McCann twins; Ella (Russell and Jane's daughter who was a similar age) and Lily Payne? They would have had memories of that week for sure.

What does Kate write about the twins asking about where Madeleine was? She records: "There were few blessings to be counted in these terrible circumstances but perhaps one was the fact that they were too young to be properly aware of what was happening. I think it was the next day (Sunday 6th May) before Sean first asked me: 'Where's Madeleine, Mummy?

'Oh, God, oh, God.....I answered him as calmly as I could, and my reply soon became our stock response to this question. 'We don't know , honey. She's missing but we're all looking for her.'

by Joannep43 08.12.15 23:23

@j.rob "I imagine the Tapas groups vagueness about when they last saw Madeleine is effectively to disguise the truth about what happened that week" My thoughts exactly!
The Tapas group have difficulty remembering what they did Sunday and Monday in particular.Apparently all days rolled into one.No two days are the same .Something different would have happened each day even if following a similar routine.The tapas group should have been able to identify each day clearly and their whereabouts.

by roy rovers 09.12.15 0:00

If MM went into a drug induced coma early in the week, was tended by the doctors during the week but died later in the week it might explain the enduring mystery of why there came to be 'buy in' to the charade by the T7. By the end of the week they were already implicated.

by j.rob 09.12.15 0:02

I agree, Joanne, I think they would all remember each day from that week with great clarity. I am sure the Portuguese police didn't believe a word of what they said.

I suppose that is why TM felt a need to belittle the professionalism of the Portuguese police.

I do think that that photo of some members of TM on the day after the 'abduction' which is in the PJ files (are they on the way to the police station perhaps?) speaks a thousand words. They just look so shifty. As if the Portuguese police aren't going to notice this. What arrogance on the part of TM, Leics police et al to think that no-one would notice how damn dodgy the whole 'abduction' claim was.

by Joannep43 09.12.15 0:32

Another odd thing I've noticed from reading the Rogatory statements.There are few photographs of Madeleine on the holiday.From memory.. The playground photos,the tennis photo,the last photo by the pool.There are many mentions from the Tapas group of seeing Madeleine in these various situations,backed up by the photographic evidence?
These few photos are used over and over within the Tapas statements as credible sightings of Madeleiene that week.Nothing wrong with that ,apart from the fact that the Tapas group don't discuss other sightings of her with any detail in the rogatories.Apart from David Payne last sighting on 3rd may.
So my question is ,how come no More is spoken or mentioned about Madeleiene eg at the Paynes appartment for lunch,or at the millennium once for breakfast,or the sighting of her on the boat trip,or of any other meeting or sighting of her?

by Liz Eagles 09.12.15 8:07

Joannep43 wrote:Another odd thing I've noticed from reading the Rogatory statements.There are few photographs of Madeleine on the holiday.From memory.. The playground photos,the tennis photo,the last photo by the pool.There are many mentions from the Tapas group of seeing Madeleine in these various situations,backed up by the photographic evidence?
These few photos are used over and over within the Tapas statements as credible sightings of Madeleiene that week.Nothing wrong with that ,apart from the fact that the Tapas group don't discuss other sightings of her with any detail in the rogatories.Apart from David Payne last sighting on 3rd may.
So my question is ,how come no More is spoken or mentioned about Madeleiene eg at the Paynes appartment for lunch,or at the millennium once for breakfast,or the sighting of her on the boat trip,or of any other meeting or sighting of her?

The rogatory interviews were to ask specific questions on behalf of the PJ. If the PJ didn't ask the question then LP didn't ask it on their behalf. That's my understanding.

by Joannep43 09.12.15 15:32

From HiDeHos research I have decided to do a timeline of the people who are certain they saw Madeleine on May 3rd. It's a quick reference of huge amounts of information of testimonies and the only way my brain will digest info from this day. When reading this I'm sure it leaves the reader in no doubt that some people were mistaken about seeing Madeleine on this day. Like HiDeHo has said there is no accusations that independent witnesses are lying, only that they are mistaken.
8am .Cecillia Dias Firmino- Madeleine at breakfast at Millenium
9.10 am Emma Wilding -Madeleine signed in a the crèche by Gerry
10.30 am Catriona Baker-took Madeleine sailing at the beach
10.30-11.00am Rachel sees Madeleine at tennis lesson, Rachel's last sighting of Madeleine
12.25 Madeleine fetched from crèche by Kate
12.25 Fiona Payne last sighting of Madeleiene picking daughter up from crèche
Afternoon no time specific- the Boyd family state their son plays on water slide with Madeleine and plays football for one hour at the ocean club
2.15pm Jane tanner - says Madeleine is shouting to us on tennis courts- Janes last sighting of Madeleine
Afternoon no time specific- Emma Wilding states m in crèche this afternoon
Charlotte Pennington. No time specific,told stories and talked to Madeleine at the crèche
4.30pm Maria m a Jose - see Madeleine having a meal with other children in restaurant
5.30pm Madeleine signed out of crèche by Kate
Before 6pm cat baker says Madeleine is collected by Kate
6pm Miguel Matius sees Madeleine dancing with her father at Paraiso restaurant on the beach
6.30-7pm David Payne visits McCann appartment sees Madeleiene for the last time

Russel O'Brien -thinks he may have seen Madeleine at lunch time Thursday but not certain.
Matthew oldfield- he is not sure what day he last saw Madeleine.

by Grande Finale 10.12.15 3:31

Joannep43 wrote:
12.25 Madeleine fetched from crèche by Kate
12.25 Fiona Payne last sighting of Madeleiene picking daughter up from crèche

FP stated that she went with KM to collect Maddie from the Creche and Thursday was the only day she had done so !!

*GM Statement*
The tennis class finished at llH15, he stayed in the pool area talking with his wife and other persons, whom he does not remember. At 12H00, he combined with KATE, as he recalls it, that she would make lunch and he would collect MADELEINE. He thinks that it was KATE who took the twins home. Since it was he who went to collect MADELEINE, he is sure he used the short-cut

I couldn't blame anyone for thinking that no-one collected Maddie from the creche on 3/05/2007 and that it was all make believe ?

by j.rob 10.12.15 11:57

roy rovers wrote:If MM went into a drug induced coma early in the week, was tended by the doctors during the week but died later in the week it might explain the enduring mystery of why there came to be 'buy in' to the charade by the T7. By the end of the week they were already implicated.

Quite possible of course. The fact that Kate brings up the subject of sedation in her book - suggesting that 'the abductor' might have sedated Madeleine on both Wednesday and Thursday night and suggesting that the twins had been sedated on Thursday night is quite a big clue.

If the police had insisted on the twins being taken to hospital and investigated and they had been found to be sedated then a great many questions might have been asked. The type of sedative used, for instance, might have provided some clues.

It also suggests to me that Madeleine WAS sedated on Wednesday night. I think that following a waking up and crying incident (and, unfortunately, I suspect a 'clobbering' incident) she was sedated to keep her quiet.

And I suspect, as Kate suggests, that the twins were sedated on Thursday night. So that on no account would they wake up that night and witness the chaos.

The blood splatter on the wall of the apartment, though, could that be indicative of emergency resuscitation? Or what?

by **HiDeHo** 10.12.15 17:35

Grande Finale wrote:
Joannep43 wrote:
12.25 Madeleine fetched from crèche by Kate
12.25 Fiona Payne last sighting of Madeleiene picking daughter up from crèche

FP stated that she went with KM to collect Maddie from the Creche and Thursday was the only day she had done so !!

*GM Statement*
The tennis class finished at llH15, he stayed in the pool area talking with his wife and other persons, whom he does not remember. At 12H00, he combined with KATE, as he recalls it, that she would make lunch and he would collect MADELEINE. He thinks that it was KATE who took the twins home. Since it was he who went to collect MADELEINE, he is sure he used the short-cut

I couldn't blame anyone for thinking that no-one collected Maddie from the creche on 3/05/2007 and that it was all make believe ?

by **HiDeHo** 05.03.16 17:52

by Realist 14.04.16 11:32

A story can be implausible, but still be true, what it can't be is physically impossible and true. The McCann's story of events is physically impossible, therefore whatever happened to their daughter occurred prior to their timeline, it doesn't take the brains of David Lloyd George, or for that matter, the mathematical genius of Albert Einstein to configure this.

However, I cannot concur that a conclusion can be drawn that Madeleine McCann was definitely not seen after the Sat/Sunday. For this to be concluded, one would have to accept that the McCanns had entered into a conspiracy with seven comparative strangers, none of whom had any previous criminal dealings with the police, not to mention all of whom subsequently transpired to be both unreliable and not too clever.

I have associated with so called 'hardened criminals' since the age of thirteen and can categorically state that during this span of time, I have only ever known one person who would not lay down the life of their friend to save them self. Having stated the aforementioned, I consider that in meeting just one person, I've been extremely privileged, or put colloquially, 'had a right result.'

The McCanns got lucky in that the Portuguese police initially gave them the benefit of the doubt, had they been vacating in for instance, the good ole US of A, they'd still be languishing in gaol, as opposed to appearing on spurious chat shows.

by Cmaryholmes 14.04.16 12:59

The Mccanns' holiday companions may or may not have been close friends, but entering a conspiracy with them to hide what really happened is not so extraordinary. Not so much self- sacrificing, more self-preservation, it could well be that they all benefit from the truth being hidden. The longer a lie has been told, the harder it is to tell the truth, especially if there is much to lose. Especially if it is a big lie, enmeshed in confusion.

by Guest 14.04.16 14:23

Cmaryholmes wrote:The Mccanns' holiday companions may or may not have been close friends, but entering a conspiracy with them to hide what really happened is not so extraordinary. Not so much self- sacrificing, more self-preservation, it could well be that they all benefit from the truth being hidden. The longer a lie has been told, the harder it is to tell the truth, especially if there is much to lose. Especially if it is a big lie, enmeshed in confusion.

AMEN! It all depends on the severity of The Truth of the Lie'.

Savile for example, was protected from the top right down to the bottom, I doubt if he many many friends - or Ted Heath for that matter. To name but two.