Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday?

by skyrocket 03.12.15 10:44

@TB

I think [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is probably referring to the Luz beach trip for ice creams and pop rather than Sagres. Two threads of discussion going on so it may help if specifics are stated!

by **Tony Bennett** 03.12.15 11:45

skyrocket wrote:@TB

I think [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is probably referring to the Luz beach trip for ice creams and pop rather than Sagres. Two threads of discussion going on so it may help if specifics are stated!

You may be right, in which case I stand corrected.

However, Da Troof twice refers to the beach trip being on the Monday, whereas Kate McCann's book pitches a beach trip on the Tuesday: 'madeleine', pages 57-59.

In this account she repeatedly emphasises how they - all five of them - went to the beach, and bought five ice creams etc. etc.

No photographs of this event, though.

For some reason.

Kate says of that day (Tuesday) (p. 58) "The weather wasn't great: in fact, on the beach it started to rain".

Further on down the page we are told that on this rainy day, Gerry bought some sunglasses from a market stall. It seems he never had a pair in England, or he and his missus forgot to pack them.

This purchase of the sunglasses is one of the best evidences that the 'Last Photo' was taken on the Thursday... winkwink

by woodpecker 03.12.15 15:26

if the weather 'wasn't great' and it started raining on the beach then its a little bit odd they bought according to kate 5 icecreams. Now kids can be demanding and the fact that it wasn't really warm on the beach would not stop kids demanding things but why would the two adults spend money on icecreams for themselves on such a day. On a gloomy beach with rain threatening the last thing I would want is an icecream. Also the McCanns seem a bit on the tight side so while they might buy ice creams for the kids to keep them quiet why spend on themselves?
the FIVE is to emphasise they were still a family of five then when they weren't IMO.

by pennylane 03.12.15 17:14

HiDeHo wrote:

Cecilia Paula Dias Firmino do Carmo
PR Millenium

Saw Madeleine at breakfast

Mistaken identity?

- saw MBM at breakfast when she worked on Tue, Wed & thurs, but does not specify exactly when seen (Note: conflicting evidence on where breakfast was taken by the family, and when)

- Probably mistaken identity as McCanns did not go to breakfast during the week when she was working

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Cecilia Paula Dias Firmino do Carmo

Date/Time: 2007/05/06 22H00

Occupation: Public Relations

Place of Work: Millenium restaurant, OC.

When asked, she says that she knows the parents, the siblings and Madeleine. She received them for breakfast on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, she does not know whether they went for breakfast on Sunday or Monday, as these were her days off.

She says that breakfast was served between 08.00 and 10.00 and that the McCanns would arrive between 08.00 and 09.00.

She says that the McCanns appeared to be a normal family and that the relation between the members of the family was very good. Madeleine appeared to be very attached to her father and was always clinging on to him. Given her public relations function she was always very nice to the guests and would get involved with the children, saying that Madeleine was very shy and did not respond to her. She says that the only contact she had with guests was at the entrance to the Millenium restaurant, she did not have a view of the tables or the Buffet area.

REASON FOR QUESTIONING - Cecila did not work on the ONLY day we 'know' that Madeleine went to the Millenium for breakfast. Sunday.

She may have been describing E**a on Tuesday Wednesday and Thursday and her description of her being shy DOES describe E**a's personality and not Madeleine.
NOT PROOF THAT SHE SAW MADELEINE

I'm not sure she was mistaken because there's not only Madeleine she remembers, but Gerry McCann and she would have been pretty sure what he looked like by the time she made her statement' Also ROB looks nothing like Gerry McCann, and is unmistakably tall. What are your thoughts?

by kaz 03.12.15 17:19

How does Tony feel about HDH's
assertion that Fatima's ( the cleaner ) sighting of Madeleine at 1.30 ish on Sunday was in her opinion credible? How can the 'Last Photo' have been taken on Sunday if HDH is right?

by pennylane 03.12.15 17:47

pennylane wrote:
HiDeHo wrote:
pennylane wrote:Good work HdH

If I may start with what Goncalo Amaral told Kazlux directly when asked in person whilst launching his book in Amersterdam on 5th May 2009.

Q: Have you any doubt as to the validity of Madeleine attending the creche on 3/5?

A: No doubt whatsoever.

My own belief is that GA would not have said this if there were any doubts as it's a vital part of the initial investigation to establish when Maddie was last seen. I know some say 'we know a lot more now,' however, my feeling is that GA is the one who knows a lot more than we do, and is one smart cookie. Just saying.....
You are absolutely correct pennylane and certainly IS something that I have taken into consideration.

What we DON'T know is what he based his information on.

Goncalo was the coordinator of the case and not the man on the ground interviewing. He would recive the information from his officers.

Some of the nannies statements claimed to have seen Maddie during the week as well as a general statement from Catriona that she was there all week.

She was signed in an out every day and all of the information and statements points to her being there.

The investigation had no reason at that point to suspect she wasn't there, and even if they DID suspect anything was not credible, they cannot claim it in public unless it is proved to be wrong.

Once the rogatory interviews were in place, many things started to become questionable. Not because of memory but for many other reasons.

The police (after Goncalo was the coordinator) asked many questions that would have no relevance if something did not happen until that night.

Many of the witnesses were asked if they saw the McCanns in a car during the week...

Rachel claimed the LAST TIME she saw Madeleine was at mini tennis, but she claimed it was THURSDAY morning, but that was the Sharks that were playing, the lobsters played on TUESDAY. Was Tuesday the last time she saw Madeleine?

The police QUESTIONED Rachael and asked her WHICH COURT they played on...WHY? Rachael responded with the incorrect answer, but whether Tuesday or Thursday they questioned her and that shuld not have been relevant if nothing happened until THURSDAY even ing...

Gerry started receiving the first of text messages, (which he deleted and denied) at 8am Wednesday morning. These messages were so important to the investigation that they applied to SUPREME court about a month before the shelving to try to get info on these messages. They were refused, but if nothing happened until Thursday night WHY would these text messages be of such importance from Wednesday morning?

Goncalo Amaral claimed in his documentary, while pointing to Madeleine's bed that it didn't look like it had been slept in. Goncalo Amaral knew the cleaner had made the bed Wednesday morning, so was he suggesting she hadn't slept in it since Tuesday night?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

There are other indications also about discrepancies DURING the week that the police had questioned.

I have no idea what Goncalo based his knowledge on and whether it was his opinion or based on the investigation 'facts' (that hadn't been proven) my effort is not to prove him wrong...

I am just asking for ANY indication that could be considered PROOF she was seen...

Also, any reason the discrepancies started to happen on Tuesday
Thank you HiDeHo

I'm not disagreeing with you at all. In fact I would say you have hit on something else that was going on, that is perhaps the reason the McCanns got all their protection? I'm just not comfortable believing so many are lying, not credible, or mistaken re M being alive that week. I still feel she met her demise on 3rd and there was last minute panic and shambolic backfitting, and I cannot shake that feeling off whenever I go back over the events of that evening.

HiDeHo just to add a thought hello

Regarding your above reference to GA stating Maddie's bed did not look slept in, I absolutely agree, which adds more credence to a lack of staging, especially when you take into account the bedding arrangement was suddenly different on the 3rd, as confirmed by the Ocean Club maid, Maria Julia de Silva, who says when she cleaned the Mc's apartment on Wed May 2nd, the McCanns bedroom had a child's cot in it, and in the room next to the entrance there was a bed next to the wall (where she supposed the missing child slept), which also contained a second child's cot. All these beds were untidy at the time, meaning that they had been used. But the following evening of May 3rd both cots were together in the same room (Madeleine's room). This rather adds to my theory that Maddie met her demise the evening of the 3rd, and (imo) she may have been ill that day as Kate said she was pale and very tired (maybe worried others had noticed), which perhaps adds weight to your theory she was not at High Tea?

by Doug D 03.12.15 17:51

Pennylane,

Based on KM’s book, Cecilia had to be mistaken (and we all know that everything in there is completely factual don’t we?)

‘Sunday 29 April, we woke up bright and early and feeling refreshed. After a quick wash, we returned to the Millennium
restaurant,…….......

Gerry had made a trip to Baptista, a supermarket a short distance from the Ocean Club on Rua Dr Gentil Martins, to get in a few bits and pieces for lunch, plus some cereal, to save us making the trek to the Millennium restaurant for breakfast each morning………….

The following days settled into a similar pattern: we’d have breakfast in the apartment,……………..’

Should have been easy for the PJ to confirm either way as it would be usual for all-inclusive guests to sign a register when they go for a meal to stop all & sundry just walking in off the street.

by pennylane 03.12.15 17:55

Tony Bennett wrote:
pennylane wrote:
I'm not disagreeing with you at all. In fact I would say you have hit on something else that was going on, that is perhaps the reason the McCanns got all their protection? I'm just not comfortable believing so many are lying, not credible, or mistaken re M being alive that week...
Here's one very important 'sighting' of Madeleine that week which looks like it was certainly mistaken, and not credible.

We haven't spent any time looking at it, though IIRC HideHo might have referred to it briefly way up the thread.

It's a sighting that IMO deserves much much more attention than it has had so far.

It's the one by Luisa Anade Noronha de Azevedo Coutinho - one of the Ocean Club receptionists:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] *

Here's what she says:

QUOTE

She remembers that on Sunday 29th April one of the individuals of the group arrived with the child Madeleine McCann, she does not know his name and can only say that he was male and tall and thin and that he approached her to request a booking for the whole group, for the whole week and always at 20.30.

When questioned, she confirms that the man was not the father of the girl but one of the members of the group whom was often seen in his company.

The man justified his request by saying that the group had many small children whom they would leave alone when they went to dine. She said that at intervals some two parents would go to the apartments to see if everything was OK.

UNQUOTE

Some say that this account only makes sense if the individual concerened was Dr Russell O'Brien - and the girl with him was not Madeleine but his own daughter, Ella.

Ella was said to look very much like Madeleine.

Luisa Ana Coutinho, along with other witnesses, was probably shown a photograph of Madeleine - in order to identify her - which was one of those circulating in the early days, maybe the 'First Photo', so probably only 'recognised' this girl as Madeleine from the photographs of her being circulated.

This has led a number of people, very understandably, to suggest that a number of the claimed 'sightings' of Madeleine that week were actually of Ella, and not of Madeleine at all.

* acknowledgement to pamalam

Thank you Tony, hello

Yes it could indicate the two girls looked alike.

by pennylane 03.12.15 18:04

Doug D wrote:Pennylane,

Based on KM’s book, Cecilia had to be mistaken (and we all know that everything in there is completely factual don’t we?)

‘Sunday 29 April, we woke up bright and early and feeling refreshed. After a quick wash, we returned to the Millennium
restaurant,…….......

Gerry had made a trip to Baptista, a supermarket a short distance from the Ocean Club on Rua Dr Gentil Martins, to get in a few bits and pieces for lunch, plus some cereal, to save us making the trek to the Millennium restaurant for breakfast each morning………….

The following days settled into a similar pattern: we’d have breakfast in the apartment,……………..’

Should have been easy for the PJ to confirm either way as it would be usual for all-inclusive guests to sign a register when they go for a meal to stop all & sundry just walking in off the street.

One often suspects the opposite where the bewk's revelations are concerned.

But easily verified as you say, Doug nod

by Carrry On Doctor 03.12.15 21:28

pennylane wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
pennylane wrote:
I'm not disagreeing with you at all. In fact I would say you have hit on something else that was going on, that is perhaps the reason the McCanns got all their protection? I'm just not comfortable believing so many are lying, not credible, or mistaken re M being alive that week...
Here's one very important 'sighting' of Madeleine that week which looks like it was certainly mistaken, and not credible.

We haven't spent any time looking at it, though IIRC HideHo might have referred to it briefly way up the thread.

It's a sighting that IMO deserves much much more attention than it has had so far.

It's the one by Luisa Anade Noronha de Azevedo Coutinho - one of the Ocean Club receptionists:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] *

Here's what she says:

QUOTE

She remembers that on Sunday 29th April one of the individuals of the group arrived with the child Madeleine McCann, she does not know his name and can only say that he was male and tall and thin and that he approached her to request a booking for the whole group, for the whole week and always at 20.30.

When questioned, she confirms that the man was not the father of the girl but one of the members of the group whom was often seen in his company.

The man justified his request by saying that the group had many small children whom they would leave alone when they went to dine. She said that at intervals some two parents would go to the apartments to see if everything was OK.

UNQUOTE

Some say that this account only makes sense if the individual concerened was Dr Russell O'Brien - and the girl with him was not Madeleine but his own daughter, Ella.

Ella was said to look very much like Madeleine.

Luisa Ana Coutinho, along with other witnesses, was probably shown a photograph of Madeleine - in order to identify her - which was one of those circulating in the early days, maybe the 'First Photo', so probably only 'recognised' this girl as Madeleine from the photographs of her being circulated.

This has led a number of people, very understandably, to suggest that a number of the claimed 'sightings' of Madeleine that week were actually of Ella, and not of Madeleine at all.

* acknowledgement to pamalam
Thank you Tony,

Yes it could indicate the two girls looked alike.

And significantly, upon these reports being made public, her father did not attempt to clarify to the contrary.

To date we have not had one single credible challenge to Hi-deHo's research. Not one.

by **Tony Bennett** 03.12.15 22:32

kaz wrote:How does Tony feel about HDH's assertion that Fatima's (the cleaner) sighting of Madeleine at 1.30 ish on Sunday was in her opinion credible? How can the 'Last Photo' have been taken on Sunday if HDH is right?

First, HDH's assertion of a very high degree of credibility is spot on.

Here's the cleaner's statement:

She states that this took place on Sunday 29th April, just before she finished her morning work shift (13.30) as she had the afternoon off that day. At about 13.15 she went to help her mother, who was cleaning apartment 5I of the same block (5) situated on the first floor. She clearly remembers seeing the girl accompanied by her siblings and mother leave their apartment (5 A) and walk to the stairs leading to the floor above. She was very close to them at a distance of about 1 metre, observing their movements for a few moments because she was charmed by them. Madeleine led the way with a plate (perhaps plastic) in her hand bearing a piece of bread. As regards the clothes she was wearing she only remembers a skirt but cannot recall its description. She noted, because she thought them nice, the type of shoes she was wearing, tennis shoes, light in colour she thinks, which had little lights along the soles, which lit up each time she stepped on the ground. Her siblings followed behind her, wearing the same kind of shoes and each holding a piece of bread in their hands, their mother followed behind them without holding their hands. She seems to remember that the mother was also carrying a plate. Moments afterwards, perhaps the time it took to close the apartment door, the father came out and also headed to the apartment upstairs. When asked, she does not remember whether the father pulled the door closed or locked it with a key.

Now, let's just analyse how much detail this statement is packed with, going through the statement line by line:

1. Specific date - Sunday 29th
2. Time - just before finishing morning shift at 1.30pm
3. More specifics on time - was helping mother clean Apartment 5I at about 1.15pm
4. Remembers Madeleine ('the girl')
5. Specifically refers to the siblings
6. Detailed description of the siblings - following Madeleine (not just: 'I saw three young children')
7. Saw the mother follow on
8. Detail - saw the them walking to the stairs
9. Was very close to them - 1 metre or so (a few feet away)
10. She was 'charmed' by them (alternative translations might be 'attracted to' or 'fascinated by' them
11. Madeleine had a plate
12. Maybe plastic
13. In her hand
14. Madeleine was wearing a skirt
15. Wearing tennis shoes
16. Light in colour
17. Flashing lights appeared on the shoes as she walked
18. The siblings also had the 'flashing light' shoes
19. The siblings each had a piece of bread (maybe a roll or small loaf?)
20. In their hand
21. Mother followed on behind
22. Mother also carrying a plate
23. Father came out of the door a bit after the others
24. Not sure if he locked it or not
25. Saw all five members of the family (last recorded time any independent person saw all five together)
26. Father also headed up the stairs.

An extremely useful list of twenty-six separate matters of detail- so I am in complete harmony with HDH on her assessment of this statement as highly credible.

What's more, it includes elements of corroboration. I can think of at least three:

1. Playground pics of Madeleine show her wearing shoes with flashing lights
2. Airport bus pics also show siblings wearing similar shoes
3. McCanns confirm that they were having lunch in the Payne's apartment that day - taking up some bread would be fully consistent with that ('madeleine', p. 52: "We al had lunch on the balcony of the apartment Fi and Dave were having with Dianne").


'kaz' asked: How can the 'Last Photo' have been taken on Sunday if HDH is right?

I find this a truly extraordinary question for 'kaz' to ask.

Simple.

A. Cleaner sees all five members of the family going somewhere with bread and plates at 1.15pm or so.

B. McCanns have picnic lunch with the Paynes as described in p. 52 of Kate's book - say 1.15pm to around 2pm.

C. McCanns all walk down to the Ocean Club small pool where the 'Last Photo' is taken at 2.29pm on the Sunday by Kate - Sean somewhere off camera.

And there is an element of corrobration in the cleaner's statement.

On the Saturday, we have three photos of Madeleine playing around the Ocean Club grassed area in her trousers.

But the following day, the cleaner remembers seeing her in a skirt.

This provides a measure of corroboration since in the Last Photo...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

...Madeleine is wearing a dress, not trousers.

by pennylane 03.12.15 23:00

Personally I don't believe Catriona Baker would say she was with little Maddie throughout the week if she was not. I agree she doesn't say Maddie was at High Tea, but she does say Maddie was brought in by Gerry on the morning of May 3rd. I don't believe she was mistaken either as she knew both Maddie and Ella from the get go. I don't believe her being invited to the McCanns house means much as it is their MO to do such things.

I agree the witnesses are not 100% reliable for various reasons, but without CCTV footage it's pure speculation to say all these witnesses are mistaken. Absence of proof is not proof of absence (imo).

by **Tony Bennett** 03.12.15 23:13

pennylane wrote:Personally I don't believe Catriona Baker would say she was with little Maddie throughout the week if she was not. I agree she doesn't say Maddie was at High Tea, but she does say Maddie was brought in by Gerry on the morning of May 3rd.

@ pennylane Cat Baker testifies that Madeleine went sailing on the morning of Thursday 3rd May.

Do you believe that statement?

by pennylane 03.12.15 23:16

Tony Bennett wrote:
pennylane wrote:Personally I don't believe Catriona Baker would say she was with little Maddie throughout the week if she was not. I agree she doesn't say Maddie was at High Tea, but she does say Maddie was brought in by Gerry on the morning of May 3rd.
@ pennylane Cat Baker testifies that Madeleine went sailing on the morning of Thursday 3rd May.

Do you believe that statement?

Hi Tony, what time was that please?

by **Tony Bennett** 03.12.15 23:23

pennylane wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
pennylane wrote:Personally I don't believe Catriona Baker would say she was with little Maddie throughout the week if she was not. I agree she doesn't say Maddie was at High Tea, but she does say Maddie was brought in by Gerry on the morning of May 3rd.
@ pennylane Cat Baker testifies that Madeleine went sailing on the morning of Thursday 3rd May.

Do you believe that statement?

Hi Tony, what time was that please?

From Cat Baker's Rogatory Interview, 18 April 2008:

QUOTE

I never noted anything strange in Madeleine's comportment during the time I stayed with her. There was one occasion, on Thursday, 3rd of May 2007, around 10H30 in the morning, where she cried at the launch of the yellow safety boat in the ocean where all the children were sailing. She was scared and fearful and cried on my lap "I am scared, I am scared." We only used the launches to transport the children to the small yellow boats. When we returned to the other boat she was happy again. She sailed in the small boat and even though some children had the opportunity to return to the port, she stayed for a second time [in the small boat] as she appeared to be having a good time. Jane Tanner's daughter also took part in my group and together they would play. Apart from being a happy child in the club, she always seemed very content when she saw her parents. Madeleine did not demonstrate any fear with the return launch to land.

REST SNIPPED

by pennylane 03.12.15 23:34

Tony Bennett wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
pennylane wrote:Personally I don't believe Catriona Baker would say she was with little Maddie throughout the week if she was not. I agree she doesn't say Maddie was at High Tea, but she does say Maddie was brought in by Gerry on the morning of May 3rd.
@ pennylane Cat Baker testifies that Madeleine went sailing on the morning of Thursday 3rd May.

Do you believe that statement?

Hi Tony, what time was that please?

From Cat Baker's Rogatory Interview, 18 April 2008:

QUOTE

I never noted anything strange in Madeleine's comportment during the time I stayed with her. There was one occasion, on Thursday, 3rd of May 2007, around 10H30 in the morning, where she cried at the launch of the yellow safety boat in the ocean where all the children were sailing. She was scared and fearful and cried on my lap "I am scared, I am scared." We only used the launches to transport the children to the small yellow boats. When we returned to the other boat she was happy again. She sailed in the small boat and even though some children had the opportunity to return to the port, she stayed for a second time [in the small boat] as she appeared to be having a good time. Jane Tanner's daughter also took part in my group and together they would play. Apart from being a happy child in the club, she always seemed very content when she saw her parents. Madeleine did not demonstrate any fear with the return launch to land.

REST SNIPPED

Thanks Tony, I know there are discrepancies that have been pointed out

and here

“On Thursday the 3rd of May 2007, I remember Gerry dropping Madeleine off at the club between 9.15 and 9.20 a.m. I don’t remember who picked her up for lunch that day, but in the afternoon she returned for a swim. We carried out activities with other children. On that day, we practiced sailing and I remember meeting friends of Madeleine’s parents on the beach, David and Jane. At around 2.45 p.m., Madeleine returned to the Minis Club above the reception, but I don’t remember who brought her. On that afternoon, we went swimming. Kate picked up Madeleine in the Tapas Bar area, and as far as I remember, she was wearing sports clothes at that time and I deducted that she had been jogging. It was around 3.35 – 6 p.m.”

by pennylane 03.12.15 23:48

I'm going to have to say good night. I'll be back mañana hello

by **Tony Bennett** 03.12.15 23:56

pennylane wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
pennylane wrote:Personally I don't believe Catriona Baker would say she was with little Maddie throughout the week if she was not. I agree she doesn't say Maddie was at High Tea, but she does say Maddie was brought in by Gerry on the morning of May 3rd.
@ pennylane Cat Baker testifies that Madeleine went sailing on the morning of Thursday 3rd May.

Do you believe that statement?

Hi Tony, what time was that please?

From Cat Baker's Rogatory Interview, 18 April 2008:

QUOTE

I never noted anything strange in Madeleine's comportment during the time I stayed with her. There was one occasion, on Thursday, 3rd of May 2007, around 10H30 in the morning, where she cried at the launch of the yellow safety boat in the ocean where all the children were sailing. She was scared and fearful and cried on my lap "I am scared, I am scared." We only used the launches to transport the children to the small yellow boats. When we returned to the other boat she was happy again. She sailed in the small boat and even though some children had the opportunity to return to the port, she stayed for a second time [in the small boat] as she appeared to be having a good time. Jane Tanner's daughter also took part in my group and together they would play. Apart from being a happy child in the club, she always seemed very content when she saw her parents. Madeleine did not demonstrate any fear with the return launch to land.

REST SNIPPED
Thanks Tony, I know there are discrepancies that have been pointed out

Yes.

So let's now look at a summary of Inspector Pinho's report. Remember the issue is not whether there was a 'mini-sail' that morning - there was - but whether Madeleine went with the rest of the group.

Place: Praia da Luz, Lagos Officer responsible: Manuel Pinho, Inspector - SUMMARY:

Pinho: "Today (10 May 07), accompanied by Joao Barreiras and Catriona Baker, the 'nanny' responsible for the missing minor, we retraced the places and times at which they left the resort area to go to Praia da Luz. We were told by Catriona that they went to the beach on Thursday between 10 and 11 o'clock…and that Catriona, with Madeleine and 4 or 5 more children, walked toward the beach - about 100 metres".

But Alice Standley accompanied the children on the route and on the boat. Three children sailed with her. Chris Unsworth transported the children in a red amphibious boat (a life-saving boat) until the boat reached the open sea, and, a few minutes later, returned them to the beach to pick up three other children from the group.

Both state that the children did not have any contact with anyone else during the time they were at the beach, as was the case also during their walk to the beach.

So, both these witnesses, according to Inspector Pinho, deny that Cat Baker went sailing with Madeleine’s group that morning. Neither, it appears, did either Alice Standley or Chris Unsworth say that Madeleine was in either of the boats of three children that went sailing that morning. There were 7 children in the Lobsters group.

It looks like the other six children in the group all went sailing, in two boats of three each, but that Madeleine did not.

So we have to make a choice.

Do we believe Cat Baker?

Or Alice Standley and Chris Unsworth?

by missbeetle 04.12.15 1:22

Madeleine isn't wearing a dress in the Last Photo.

She has shorts and a top on.

by **Tony Bennett** 04.12.15 7:46

missbeetle wrote:Madeleine isn't wearing a dress in the Last Photo.

She has shorts and a top on.

I am amazed that you pick up on this point, which was actually the smallest point in my whole post.

You're obviously not denying that the cleaner Fatima's statement is highly credible, neither are you denying that her account is perfectly compatible with the Last Photo having been taken on the Sunday at 2.29pm.

What Madeleine was wearing on the Last Photo has been universally described as a 'pink dress'.

Even on the very first day it was published in the British press, e.g. the Daily Mail on 25 May 2007:

QUOTE   [The photo] shows Madeleine with her father Gerry and two-year-old sister Amelie, sitting beside the pool in their Algarve holiday apartment complex. Her mother Kate is behind the camera with Amelie's twin brother Sean. It could hardly have captured her character more perfectly - a cheeky little Miss in a pink summer dress and floppy hat, stealing the limelight as usual with that trademark smile.   UNQUOTE

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Thus Fatima's reference to Madeleine wearing 'a skirt' provides a degree of corroboration. She doesn't recollect Madeleine wearing trousers, as she clearly was the previous day at the Ocean Club.

++++++++++++

P.S. Over the road on candyfloss's site, any idea that Fatima's statement was entirely credible and tended if anything to confirm that the Last Photo could have been taken on Sunday was met with the usual "Tony Bennett said it, so it must be wrong" knee-jerk reaction. About 95% of their posts are in secret these days, and nearly all of those are on two anti-CMOMM threads. But I'm pleased to say there has been a welcome turnaround there with the few thinking posters over there recognising that, of course, there is no conflict whatsoever between Fatima's statement and suggestions that the Last Photo was taken on the Sunday

by Liz Eagles 04.12.15 9:16

I think Fatima's statement is totally credible.

by Ray_Sneek 04.12.15 9:26

There has been (for once) a sensible contribution made on Cristobell's blog.

A contributor has written this today, hope it's OK to quote it here:

Anonymous [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Very interesting. There seems to be massive reaction to Hideho's research about Madeleine being 'gone' already earlier in the week. I guess she is rather close to the truth. The parents want people to believe:
1. M was abducted.
2. 'IT' happened 3 May.

They know a lot of people rather think an accident happened that same day. Somehow they are okay with that, because they can 'explain it away'. Simply by using 'there was no time to stage everything on Thursday'.

Which is true. There wouldn't be.

That's why earlier in the week is a no go area. If people started to realise that 'it' happened on Sunday or Monday, everything changes. So much more time on hand...

by joyce1938 04.12.15 10:29

I always under impression that last pic was one where Maddie was wearing her nice peach top and shorts, broidery anglaise? My how confusing this can be. joyce1938

by pennylane 04.12.15 11:01

Tony Bennett wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
pennylane wrote:Personally I don't believe Catriona Baker would say she was with little Maddie throughout the week if she was not. I agree she doesn't say Maddie was at High Tea, but she does say Maddie was brought in by Gerry on the morning of May 3rd.
@ pennylane Cat Baker testifies that Madeleine went sailing on the morning of Thursday 3rd May.

Do you believe that statement?

Hi Tony, what time was that please?

From Cat Baker's Rogatory Interview, 18 April 2008:

QUOTE

I never noted anything strange in Madeleine's comportment during the time I stayed with her. There was one occasion, on Thursday, 3rd of May 2007, around 10H30 in the morning, where she cried at the launch of the yellow safety boat in the ocean where all the children were sailing. She was scared and fearful and cried on my lap "I am scared, I am scared." We only used the launches to transport the children to the small yellow boats. When we returned to the other boat she was happy again. She sailed in the small boat and even though some children had the opportunity to return to the port, she stayed for a second time [in the small boat] as she appeared to be having a good time. Jane Tanner's daughter also took part in my group and together they would play. Apart from being a happy child in the club, she always seemed very content when she saw her parents. Madeleine did not demonstrate any fear with the return launch to land.

REST SNIPPED
Thanks Tony, I know there are discrepancies that have been pointed out
Yes.

So let's now look at a summary of Inspector Pinho's report. Remember the issue is not whether there was a 'mini-sail' that morning - there was - but whether Madeleine went with the rest of the group.

Place: Praia da Luz, Lagos Officer responsible: Manuel Pinho, Inspector - SUMMARY:

Pinho: "Today (10 May 07), accompanied by Joao Barreiras and Catriona Baker, the 'nanny' responsible for the missing minor, we retraced the places and times at which they left the resort area to go to Praia da Luz. We were told by Catriona that they went to the beach on Thursday between 10 and 11 o'clock…and that Catriona, with Madeleine and 4 or 5 more children, walked toward the beach - about 100 metres".

But Alice Standley accompanied the children on the route and on the boat. Three children sailed with her. Chris Unsworth transported the children in a red amphibious boat (a life-saving boat) until the boat reached the open sea, and, a few minutes later, returned them to the beach to pick up three other children from the group.

Both state that the children did not have any contact with anyone else during the time they were at the beach, as was the case also during their walk to the beach.

So, both these witnesses, according to Inspector Pinho, deny that Cat Baker went sailing with Madeleine’s group that morning. Neither, it appears, did either Alice Standley or Chris Unsworth say that Madeleine was in either of the boats of three children that went sailing that morning. There were 7 children in the Lobsters group.

It looks like the other six children in the group all went sailing, in two boats of three each, but that Madeleine did not.

So we have to make a choice.

Do we believe Cat Baker?

Or Alice Standley and Chris Unsworth?

Good Morning Tony,
Thank you so much for taking your time to explain why you disbelieve CB.

Obviously it is Catriona Baker that is leading and guiding this reconstruction with the two Inspectors, Manuel Pinho and Joao Barreras, and taking them through the events and movements upon leaving the resort in the direction of the beach, etc; and it begins and ends with her recollection of events. I'm afraid I do not see proof that Madeleine was not there. I admit I don't understand the dinghy/sailing thing as I've never witnessed one, but with that many children it is clear there would have to be two infant educators present surely. It appears on the 3/5 Alice sailed with 3 children at a time in a yellow catamaran. Chris Unsworth ferried the children to the catamaran.

If so (sorry if already covered), who stayed with the remaining children on the beach?

by kaz 04.12.15 11:16

@ TB
''...................I find this a truly extraordinary question for 'kaz' to ask..''

The reason I asked the question is not because I do not find Fatima's statement credible .................I actually think it's very credible. It's just the timing issue . Madeleine was seen going to the Payne's apartment for lunch around 13.15. I accept she could already be wearing the pinkish clothes but I'm sure somebody would have had to fetch the sun hats from the apartment before making their way down to the pool. Despite the fact that I think that's a pretty hurried lunch bearing in mind the number of children present I accept it's all doable timewise . They then make their way down to the pool where the picture is taken at 2.29 . Within 16 minutes Madeleine is ensconced in the crèche ( 14.45) and according to the crèche record within 6 minutes the twins were at Lobsters.( 14.35) Bearing in mind Textusa's take on this photograph I thought it was worth asking the question. Personally , I think the photo was taken on the Sunday but am open to suggestion that some tampering has been done.

by kaz 04.12.15 11:23

Just another thought: Could the timing issue be the reason for deliberate confusion over the
camera's time ?

by skyrocket 04.12.15 12:44

With ref to Cat Bakers beach/boat trip statement made on the 10 May, I interpret that Alice Standley accompanied the children and CB to the beach (Thurs morning 3 May). [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I agree - I assumed CB stayed on the beach with the children. All 3 (CB, AS and CU) said that they didn't meet anyone else on the beach. This is odd in itself in that Fiona Payne describes how she and David both saw Madeleine and Ella sailing and then Jane Tanner says that she and Russell saw Ella and Madeleine having just come off the boats when they arrived at the beach. Note, Jane Tanner who we are told enjoys taking lots of photos (except seemingly on this holiday), apparently doesn't use her camera to record the event for the photo album. She stutters something about having a photo of Ella and then changes the subject quickly to photos of Evie (after all photos of Ella would surely have Madeleine in them as well wouldn't they?). JT states 'that’s about the first day I took pictures actually'.

Jane Tanner Rogatory:

Reply    “Yeah, erm, I think we met Dave and Fi coming back and they said they’d seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat, because they’d taken the kids sailing that morning, so they said ‘Oh we’ve seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat down there’. So then we went down to the beach, erm, and Russell took out a kayak and I sat and just played on the beach with Evie at that point. And we saw, erm, they’d come off the boat and we saw Ella and Madeleine and the rest of the group, they were just, erm, they’d just come off the boat and they were getting ready to walk back up to the, erm, tut, the Kids Club, so”.

4078    “What was the weather like at that time when you remember seeing Madeleine on the beach then?”
Reply    “Erm, I think that day was a bit nicer actually. I think, I’m trying to, I’ve got pictures of Ella, of Evie, that’s about the first day I took pictures actually, and I’ve got pictures of Evie and I’m trying to remember what she was wearing. It was a tee-shirt, so I don’t think it was, it wasn’t as, I think it was actually getting a bit nicer, it wasn’t as cold. No, yeah, because the Thursday was actually probably one of the first nice days, which is why I think we had gone later in the day, we took all the kids down to the beach because it was actually nicer weather. So, yeah, the Thursday was probably the first day I think the sun had more come out in the day”.

4078    “When you were there with Evie and you had seen Madeleine and Ella sort of getting ready to go back to the Kids Club, were there many other people around?”
Reply    “Erm, not many, erm, phew, you know, I mean, I can remember sitting in a big space, you know, you weren’t like jammed in, there was a big space before any of the others. And, again, I’ve racked my brains to think if I could if there was anybody there that was, and I can’t think of any, noticing anybody, noticing anybody odd at that point. Erm, there was mainly just, as I say, there was the kids there and there was the people that run the activities on the beach. But, erm, you know, there were other people but nothing, you know, nobody, nobody that stood out completely”.

Cat Baker's Boat Trip Statement in full:

Date: 2007.05.10

Place: Praia da Luz, Lagos
Officer responsible: Manuel Pinho, Inspector
Description and result of diligence

Today (10 May 07), accompanied by Joao Barreiras and Catriona Baker, the 'nanny' responsible for the missing minor, retraced the places and times at which they left the resort area to go to Praia da Luz. A photographic report [of this journey] is attached:
- We were told by Catriona that the only days they went to the beach were Tuesday afternoon (1 May 2007) between 15:30 and 16:30, on Wednesday (the next day) at the same time and on Thursday between 10 and 11 o'clock (see attached table [of creche activities]).

- The route taken was as follows:

1. The parents left the children at "Baby Club", Mark Warner, situated next to the principal reception and which is open 24 hours;
2. then Catriona, with Madeleine and 4 or 5 more children, walked toward the beach. The distance is about 100 metres but not in a straight line;
3. she was always in front with the children behind linked together in a "summy snake" (the object being to form a snake so that the children stayed together in Indian file);
4. leaving the "Baby Club" they descended the stairs to the principal reception, through the front-entrance and crossed Rua Direita (the main street in Praia da Luz) heading for Beco das Palmeiras [passageway: called 'alley of palm trees'];
5. then they made a right towards Beco do Nordeste [passageway: called 'northeast alley'] after which they made a left and went down a stairway next to a property called "Casa Ortiga", that has the number 17;
6. at the bottom of the steps is Travessa das Redes [another street];
7. crossing this they descended alongside the parking lot towards the esplanade that runs the length of the beach;
8. after reaching the beach they went along the boardwalk to an area where there was a red awning and several thatched sunshades;

- On the first two days the children played and did activities in the sand. On the Thursday they went sailing next to the beach.
- On that day they sailed in a small yellow "catamaran";
- Alice Standley accompanied the children on the route and on the boat. Three children sailed with her at one time;

- Chris Unswork transported the children in a red amphibious boat (life-saving boat) until the boat reached the open sea, and, a few minutes later, returned them to the beach to pick up three other children from the group;

- All said that the children did not meet anyone else during their time at the beach, nor during the trip to it.
- All said that they saw no-one suspicious watching the children nor in the vicinity.
- Catriona said she noticed nothing abnormal [unusual] along the route either when going to the beach or when returning to the resort area.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - Gerry McCann states that they went down to the play area on Sunday 29 April at 14.15pm. There does seem to be a window of opportunity for the 'last photo' at 14.29pm without altering the time data on the camera. Also, I suspect some people may call MBM's smock a top and some may call it a dress/skirt - it looks inbetween length to me.

Another point of interest (IMO) is that in Cat Bakers' original official statement on the 6 May she states that Madeleine was sociable and that she played more with the boys in the group. For some reason Albym didn't include the relevant sentence in their translation into the English version, but it is quite clearly in the Portuguese original (dando contudo a sua maior antencao aos meninos do grupo a que pertencia (Equipa Lagosta)). Also, in the Beach Trip statement of 10 May, CB makes no mention at all of seeing the Paynes or the O'Brien/Tanner's on the beach.

If we now go to Cat Baker's Rogatory, almost a year after the event, David and Fiona Payne appear (but not O'Brien/Tanner). Also, CB is given her Portuguese statement to read over (obviously a translation including the comment about MBM and the boys) and she makes a point of highlighting that MBM played with Ella most of the time i.e. she says about the 'boys comment': 'I do not remember having made such an affirmation given that Madeleine passed the majority of time playing with Jane Tanner's daughter'. Near to the start of the Rogatory CB also states 'I stayed with Madeleine, 3 years old, in my group (Minis Club that week) together with E***, daughter of Jane Tanner' and again further down she states 'She [MBM] sailed in the small boat and even though some children had the opportunity to return to the port, she stayed for a second time as she appeared to be having a good time. Jane Tanner's daughter also took part in my group and together they would play'. So despite having said on the 6 May that MBM played mostly with the boys in the group and having not referred to Ella O'Brien at all on the 4 May; 6 May; 10 May in her statements to the PJ, suddenly, in CB's Rogatory in April 2008, Ella O'Brien is given 3 separate mentions in terms of Madeleine 'playing with her' or 'spending most of her time with her' whilst at creche. The need to establish 2 distinct little girls seems strong. Hmmmm..........

by j.rob 04.12.15 13:18

missbeetle wrote:Madeleine isn't wearing a dress in the Last Photo.

She has shorts and a top on.

According to Kate in her book on Thursday lunchtime when the 'last photo' was allegedly taken, Madeleine was wearing 'a peach coloured smock top' from Gap and 'white broderie-anglaise shorts from Monsoon.' No mention of what she was wearing on her feet.

I suppose that one could argue that a 'smock top' is a bit like a 'smock dress' and therefore could also be worn without shorts or leggings underneath. But in this case Madeleine is wearing it like a top rather than a dress.

So surely if this 'last photo' was taken at Sunday lunchtime and if the cleaner really did see Madeleine on Sunday then she should have been wearing a skirt, not a smock-top and shorts? And you might expect to see Madeleine's trainers with the flashing soles next to her at the pool side as she would have had to take them off before dangling her legs into the (freezing cold) water?

by j.rob 04.12.15 13:35

skyrocket wrote:With ref to Cat Bakers beach/boat trip statement made on the 10 May, I interpret that Alice Standley accompanied the children and CB to the beach (Thurs morning 3 May). [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I agree - I assumed CB stayed on the beach with the children. All 3 (CB, AS and CU) said that they didn't meet anyone else on the beach. This is odd in itself in that Fiona Payne describes how she and David both saw Madeleine and Ella sailing and then Jane Tanner says that she and Russell saw Ella and Madeleine having just come off the boats when they arrived at the beach. Note, Jane Tanner who we are told enjoys taking lots of photos (except seemingly on this holiday), apparently doesn't use her camera to record the event for the photo album. She stutters something about having a photo of Ella and then changes the subject quickly to photos of Evie (after all photos of Ella would surely have Madeleine in them as well wouldn't they?). JT states 'that’s about the first day I took pictures actually'.

Jane Tanner Rogatory:

Reply    “Yeah, erm, I think we met Dave and Fi coming back and they said they’d seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat, because they’d taken the kids sailing that morning, so they said ‘Oh we’ve seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat down there’. So then we went down to the beach, erm, and Russell took out a kayak and I sat and just played on the beach with Evie at that point. And we saw, erm, they’d come off the boat and we saw Ella and Madeleine and the rest of the group, they were just, erm, they’d just come off the boat and they were getting ready to walk back up to the, erm, tut, the Kids Club, so”.

4078    “What was the weather like at that time when you remember seeing Madeleine on the beach then?”
Reply    “Erm, I think that day was a bit nicer actually. I think, I’m trying to, I’ve got pictures of Ella, of Evie, that’s about the first day I took pictures actually, and I’ve got pictures of Evie and I’m trying to remember what she was wearing. It was a tee-shirt, so I don’t think it was, it wasn’t as, I think it was actually getting a bit nicer, it wasn’t as cold. No, yeah, because the Thursday was actually probably one of the first nice days, which is why I think we had gone later in the day, we took all the kids down to the beach because it was actually nicer weather. So, yeah, the Thursday was probably the first day I think the sun had more come out in the day”.

4078    “When you were there with Evie and you had seen Madeleine and Ella sort of getting ready to go back to the Kids Club, were there many other people around?”
Reply    “Erm, not many, erm, phew, you know, I mean, I can remember sitting in a big space, you know, you weren’t like jammed in, there was a big space before any of the others. And, again, I’ve racked my brains to think if I could if there was anybody there that was, and I can’t think of any, noticing anybody, noticing anybody odd at that point. Erm, there was mainly just, as I say, there was the kids there and there was the people that run the activities on the beach. But, erm, you know, there were other people but nothing, you know, nobody, nobody that stood out completely”.

Cat Baker's Boat Trip Statement in full:

Date: 2007.05.10
Place: Praia da Luz, Lagos
Officer responsible: Manuel Pinho, Inspector
Description and result of diligence
Today (10 May 07), accompanied by Joao Barreiras and Catriona Baker, the 'nanny' responsible for the missing minor, retraced the places and times at which they left the resort area to go to Praia da Luz. A photographic report [of this journey] is attached:
- We were told by Catriona that the only days they went to the beach were Tuesday afternoon (1 May 2007) between 15:30 and 16:30, on Wednesday (the next day) at the same time and on Thursday between 10 and 11 o'clock (see attached table [of creche activities]).

- The route taken was as follows:

1. The parents left the children at "Baby Club", Mark Warner, situated next to the principal reception and which is open 24 hours;
2. then Catriona, with Madeleine and 4 or 5 more children, walked toward the beach. The distance is about 100 metres but not in a straight line;
3. she was always in front with the children behind linked together in a "summy snake" (the object being to form a snake so that the children stayed together in Indian file);
4. leaving the "Baby Club" they descended the stairs to the principal reception, through the front-entrance and crossed Rua Direita (the main street in Praia da Luz) heading for Beco das Palmeiras [passageway: called 'alley of palm trees'];
5. then they made a right towards Beco do Nordeste [passageway: called 'northeast alley'] after which they made a left and went down a stairway next to a property called "Casa Ortiga", that has the number 17;
6. at the bottom of the steps is Travessa das Redes [another street];
7. crossing this they descended alongside the parking lot towards the esplanade that runs the length of the beach;
8. after reaching the beach they went along the boardwalk to an area where there was a red awning and several thatched sunshades;

- On the first two days the children played and did activities in the sand. On the Thursday they went sailing next to the beach.
- On that day they sailed in a small yellow "catamaran";
- Alice Standley accompanied the children on the route and on the boat. Three children sailed with her at one time;

- Chris Unswork transported the children in a red amphibious boat (life-saving boat) until the boat reached the open sea, and, a few minutes later, returned them to the beach to pick up three other children from the group;

- All said that the children did not meet anyone else during their time at the beach, nor during the trip to it.
- All said that they saw no-one suspicious watching the children nor in the vicinity.
- Catriona said she noticed nothing abnormal [unusual] along the route either when going to the beach or when returning to the resort area.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - Gerry McCann states that they went down to the play area on Sunday 29 April at 14.15pm. There does seem to be a window of opportunity for the 'last photo' at 14.29pm without altering the time data on the camera. Also, I suspect some people may call MBM's smock a top and some may call it a dress/skirt - it looks inbetween length to me.

Another point of interest (IMO) is that in Cat Bakers' original official statement on the 6 May she states that Madeleine was sociable and that she played more with the boys in the group. For some reason Albym didn't include the relevant sentence in their translation into the English version, but it is quite clearly in the Portuguese original (dando contudo a sua maior antencao aos meninos do grupo a que pertencia (Equipa Lagosta)). Also, in the Beach Trip statement of 10 May, CB makes no mention at all of seeing the Paynes or the O'Brien/Tanner's on the beach.

If we now go to Cat Baker's Rogatory, almost a year after the event, David and Fiona Payne appear (but not O'Brien/Tanner). Also, CB is given her Portuguese statement to read over (obviously a translation including the comment about MBM and the boys) and she makes a point of highlighting that MBM played with Ella most of the time i.e. she says about the 'boys comment': 'I do not remember having made such an affirmation given that Madeleine passed the majority of time playing with Jane Tanner's daughter'. Near to the start of the Rogatory CB also states 'I stayed with Madeleine, 3 years old, in my group (Minis Club that week) together with E***, daughter of Jane Tanner' and again further down she states 'She [MBM] sailed in the small boat and even though some children had the opportunity to return to the port, she stayed for a second time as she appeared to be having a good time. Jane Tanner's daughter also took part in my group and together they would play'. So despite having said on the 6 May that MBM played mostly with the boys in the group and having not referred to Ella O'Brien at all on the 4 May; 6 May; 10 May in her statements to the PJ, suddenly, in CB's Rogatory in April 2008, Ella O'Brien is given 3 separate mentions in terms of Madeleine 'playing with her' or 'spending most of her time with her' whilst at creche. The need to establish 2 distinct little girls seems strong. Hmmmm..........

Very interesting! So IF something happened to Madeleine McCann earlier in the week and there was a need to cover this up then WHO was Ella O'Brien playing with that week if not Madeleine McCann?

huh

by **HiDeHo** 04.12.15 13:58

IMPORTANT

First I would like to thank everyone for contributing to this thread.

I did this research a few years ago and it has been sat waiting to be 'recognised'. Thanks to Jill and Tony for hosting the discussion.

I compiled many threads on the subject as well as summary's to help assist, but it's not a subject that can be addressed simply.

What I feel everyone should know is that the discrepancy questions and the 'Who saw Maddie' research is not a theory in itself.

It is basically the 'canvas' of the week for everyone to base their own theory on.

After realising the discrepancies starting Tuesday, I felt that looking at witness statements to see if there was any PROOF that she was seen during the week would help to support that possibility or not. I had NO IDEA what I would find. I don't look for details to fit a theory, I look to see if details support what is 'known'.

I was quite shocked to see that Fatima's statement was the ONLY statement that was 'relative' proof that Maddie was seen, but was on Sunday which allowed for something to have happened before the discrepancies started TUESDAY.

Please know that if Fatima's statement had been about WEDNESDAY, THIS THREAD WOULD NOT EXIST. I would be relatively satisfied that Maddie WAS seen during the week, and would then look for reasons why the discrepancies started on Tuesday (and why there appeared an effort to cover something up)

However, Sunday supported the discrepancies starting Tuesday because of maybe trying to cover something up.

I have seen NOTHING to change my mind since I did the research in 2010 (or sooner)

Please keep in mind this isn't about trying to prove Maddie WASN'T seen during the week...It's about trying to find proof that she WAS seen.

Proof she WAS seen would be the basic 'canvas' for nothing having happened to her until that day...

No PROOF she was seen, tells us that anyone suggesting somehing happened earlier in the week is supported.

It also stands true for the alternative beliefs of anyone that believes something didn't happen until Thursday.

Its NOT a theory, it is the basis for whether anyone's theory stands up.

As mentioned, if Fatima had claimed she saw her Wednesday for example and the details weather times etc fitted, then THAT would be sufficient for me to claim there was proof she was seen Wednesday and I would look for alternative explanations as to why the discrepancies started Tuesday morning.

We don't have PROOF of some of the evidence, but by EXCLUSION we know it could be possible.

No evidence to EXCLUDE something happening to Maddie before Tuesday

No evidence to EXCLUDE Maddie's blood being in the car.

No evidence to EXCLUDE the parents from being complicit in their daughter's disappearance

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]