Re: Claim by 'Stevo' - "CEOP show Maddie is missing on 30th April 2007"

by HKP 25.06.15 14:50

@bluebag. Did you read where Stevo also said he had been using Wayback for years and it was rock solid. He then went on about 9/11 being captured (not that it has any relevance). He obviously gas some doubts.

by HKP 25.06.15 14:56

@peterMac. the poster whodunnit has pointed this out on a good few occasions on this thread. It seams that some people can't accept that if there is an error (and we don't know for sure if there is) then it is the 'October' page that could possibly be wrong not McCann. htm

by Guest 25.06.15 15:11

HKP wrote:@bluebag. Did you read where Stevo also said he had been using Wayback for years and it was rock solid. He then went on about 9/11 being captured (not that it has any relevance). He obviously gas some doubts.

Did you read his thread where he found out it wasn't rock solid?

by Guest 25.06.15 15:18

HKP wrote:@peterMac. the poster whodunnit has pointed this out on a good few occasions on this thread. It seams that some people can't accept that if there is an error (and we don't know for sure if there is) then it is the 'October' page that could possibly be wrong not McCann. htm

We do know for sure that there is.

There is no argument.

And anything associated to the error with a same time stamp is going to be the same.

Or... the alternative is that sometime after 27th October the WBM decided to archive the October page in a folder with the same time stamp that already existed.

I'd love to to the program logic for that.... "where shall I put this...? Oh how about a random existing one at the end of April... not the first one I can find or the last... somewhere in the middle".

The simplest explanation in terms of program logic is that the other pages were trawled at the same time as the October page because WBM produced a wrong time stamp (which it did).

by Guest 25.06.15 15:20

PeterMac wrote:I don;t know enough about this to get involved, but for posterity I have just copied this from Twitter
Saved from Whooshing !

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That's because the index hasn't be rebuilt yet.

by HKP 25.06.15 15:32

@Bluebag. You keep banging on about facts, the only fact is that a page which indicates it was an 'October' page was found in and index of April. You don't know how it got there, that is the other fact that you seem to ignore. All you're doing is speculating based on your not the most experienced IT person on this forum knowledge of other systems which are not Wayback

by HelenMeg 25.06.15 15:32

HKP wrote:@helenmeg. Another astute post from Resistor, thanks for bringing it across.

Yes well you will understand, I am sure, the need thumbup

I have seen this type of thing happen before on threads we we are told in no uncertain terms to believe a particular line.

by whodunnit 25.06.15 15:42

It seems we are being told in no uncertain terms that an error is a 'fact' and that there is 'no argument'.

I'd like to know if poster BlueBag is a mod and if he has the authority to shut down this thread. Because if not, his aggressive attitude + his post count will surely have the effect shutting it down if mods and admins do not clarify the issue soon. I am only a guest here and will by all means go elsewhere to have this conversation but as the largest and most active Madeleine forum I think it matters a great deal whether CMOMM will allow this debate to continue or not.

by whodunnit 25.06.15 15:46

And yes PeterMac, I've been trying seemingly to no avail to point out the sequential coding on the mccann.html page. It's a shame someone didn't save the code from the April/October CEOP homepage, or at least I haven't seen it, as I believe this would clear matters up to a large degree.

by Guest 25.06.15 15:51

HKP wrote:@Bluebag. You keep banging on about facts, the only fact is that a page which indicates it was an 'October' page was found in and index of April. You don't know how it got there, that is the other fact that you seem to ignore.

The FACT is it was there right from the start - check out Steve Marsdens Facebook thread - from the beginning - before anyone starting asking Chris Butler questions.

And that's means it's a FACT that the WBM was in error.

100% indisputable.

That IS rock solid.

You can flog this dead horse all you like, the news is even the best software can make mistakes.

by Guest 25.06.15 15:53

whodunnit wrote:It seems we are being told in no uncertain terms that an error is a 'fact' and that there is 'no argument'.

But it is.

Did you read Steve Marsdens facebook page?

The FACT is there captured on 17th June for all the world to see.

To which he commented "I'm looking into it".

I wouldn't say this was a fact unless it was.

by Skyrocket1 25.06.15 15:58

I noted in an earlier post - I think in response to something Tony asked/said (haven't got time to find it again now) - that someone said that the WBM couldn't trawl/find individual pages which were unlinked to others. They sounded sure, but I'm not. If 30 April mccann.html was an unlinked page that had been stored as a draft or uploaded to be worked on later (either scenario would mean that there was realistically no chance of access by joe bloggs), why would the WBM not be able access it?
When the WBM trawls, as far as I'm aware, it somehow targets a specific URL and grabs it. That is a stand alone process. Pages linked to the grabbed page are not automatically grabbed. They might be or they might not be grabbed on the same trawl BUT if they are it is not because they are linked to the original page. When the original page is then opened, through the Internet Archive, links to all the other pages within the site will be active but none/some/all of the linked pages will have been grabbed on the same day. The WBM opens the grabbed linked page nearest in date to the original page opened or actually opens a current page from the live site if no page has been grabbed for that link.
I don't know how the WBM targets urls, but if it was only done through page links it would surely have no place to start and even if it was given a starting url it would fizzle out when the links ran out. It would mean that urls would have to be constantly fed in to it to keep it going and that's crazy. It would also mean that any 1 page sites would always be ignored. I can't imagine that there is any way that the 'machine' is 'told' what urls to grab - it can't possibly be. Think of the thousands of new urls (web pages) being created and uploaded every day. The WBM must be able to surf around and 'see' every url on the web at any instant in time and grab whichever it chooses, including stand alone, unlinked pages.
Correct me if I'm wrong but please give reasoning - thanks! thanks

by Guest 25.06.15 15:59

The fact.

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WBM is wrong.

by HKP 25.06.15 16:10

@Bluebag. What is your point? The question that needs to be answered is whether the McCann.htm existed on 30/04 not this page which is not McCann.htm. The page demonstrated has no real significance to the major question. One page in 485 billion has a questionable link on it!

by whodunnit 25.06.15 16:27

We've all seen the page, BB. The link you provided does not prove Mr. Marsden is claiming an error. His only comment on the page you linked is:
"The CEOP Home page for April 30, 2007 also refers to Missing Madeleine."

Which in my opinion is how WBM crawlers found and captured mccann.html in the first place.

I'll just copy my previous comment on this subject:

I can see how some would be confused by October dates on an April 30th capture of the homepage--and it WAS an April 30th capture because this date ALSO occurs in the May 14th code under the previous captures heading--- but imo this is 1. A separate issue from the mccann.html capture and 2. plausibly explained by a.) dynamic content or b.) a capture was made while CEOP was in the process of editing the page. If neither of these explanations are true then let's hear it---from WBM.

Until someone can credibly refute either or both of these possible explanations--waving hands and declaring 'argument over' does not count---I will continue to believe either one of the explanations are not only possible but probable.

It truly would be nice if someone managed to capture the entire code for the April 30 capture of the homepage.

by Skyrocket1 25.06.15 16:28

Re: my post 1/2 hour ago - I have just found the following. Apologies as I failed to find this before. I will therefore correct myself - the WBM does not pick up unlinked pages.

Unknown sites -- The archive contains crawls of the Web completed by Alexa Internet. If Alexa doesn't know about your site, it won't be archived. Use the Alexa Toolbar and it will know about your page.
Orphan pages -- If there are no links to your pages, the robot won't find it (the robots don't enter queries in search boxes.)

by HKP 25.06.15 16:30

I can't do links and tried to copy over with no success. If someone could add Dr Martins latest blog which covers this subject I would be greatful.

by **PeterMac** 25.06.15 16:36

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Worth going through twice !

by whodunnit 25.06.15 16:40

I'm glad to see that the 'Only in America' blog is keeping the debate alive. Sorry I can't provide a link.

by whodunnit 25.06.15 16:44

Oops, didn't see your link before I posted, Mr. PM.

Skyrocket, in my opinion the crawlers picked up the link to mccann.html from the April 30 homepage, which is why that page is being so hotly contested.

by HKP 25.06.15 17:08

@PeterMac. Thanks, a bit sanity added to the debate

by **Jill Havern** 25.06.15 17:21

whodunnit wrote:It seems we are being told in no uncertain terms that an error is a 'fact' and that there is 'no argument'.

I'd like to know if poster BlueBag is a mod and if he has the authority to shut down this thread. Because if not, his aggressive attitude + his post count will surely have the effect shutting it down if mods and admins do not clarify the issue soon. I am only a guest here and will by all means go elsewhere to have this conversation but as the largest and most active Madeleine forum I think it matters a great deal whether CMOMM will allow this debate to continue or not.

BlueBag is not a mod and does not have the authority to shut down this thread.

The thread is staying put until we know for sure, one way or another, what the score is with WBM.

I asked Steve Marsden yesterday to come and comment on this thread and he said he would.

Haven't seen him here yet, though.

by whodunnit 25.06.15 17:31

Thank you for your reply, Get'emGonçalo.

by marxman 25.06.15 17:35

The Wayback machine is not the only internet archiving machine. Therefore, is it possible that an alternative device similar to the WBM has recorded the same information on 30th April 07??

by **PeterMac** 25.06.15 17:47

I have found
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but can't make it work.
Any specialists out there ?

by whodunnit 25.06.15 17:54

Mr. PM, WebCite search returns this response: We do not have any snapshots of the given URL..*link to ceop pages*

So it was either never saved by this service or someone requested to have it removed.

by Guest 25.06.15 18:33

BlueBag wrote:
PeterMac wrote:I don;t know enough about this to get involved, but for posterity I have just copied this from Twitter
Saved from Whooshing !

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]" />
That's because the index hasn't be rebuilt yet.

And (without checking it) I presume the entry prior to April 30th has a "Next capture" date of 30th Apr.

This would explain why one cannot go back from 13 May. You can, but the system then re-directs you forward to 13 May, making it impossible to jump back via 30th April. And the same explains why going forward works. One moves from the prior save to 30th April, but the system then re-directs to 13 May, making it look like this is seamless.

And when the re-index is done, both forward and back will work properly, and neither entry will point to Apr 30. And the calendar will not show a blue dot for Apr 30.

by Guest 25.06.15 18:43

For those of you who think this incident is significant, you may wish to keep checking the 30 April date entry until it disappears from the calendar. The date at which it disappears will give more info to debate, as it is when the WM gets re-indexed.

For many reasons, I don't think it is worth my time testing out when the 30 April bit disappears from the calendar.

by whodunnit 25.06.15 18:56

@Elça Craig--- "And (without checking it) I presume the entry prior to April 30th has a "Next capture" date of 30th Apr."

Yes, very tellingly the 'next capture' date on the April 27th homepage capture is, you guessed it, April 30.

So again, someone explain to me how this page was captured in October but misfiled to April when the prev/next capture date contradicts this assertion? How did the May 13 capture of mccann.html come to have a previous capture date of April 30? ALL of this sequential coding, in addition to the capture date codes themselves, is wrong? Every bit of it? It becomes absurd.

April 30th capture dates are all self corroborating--verified from every direction.

by **PeterMac** 25.06.15 19:05

whodunnit wrote:Mr. PM, WebCite search returns this response: We do not have any snapshots of the given URL..*link to ceop pages*

So it was either never saved by this service or someone requested to have it removed.

Thanks for doing that. I am out of my depth on this, and have to rely on others, plus a bit of common sense and logic.
Is there a reason why another archiving site would NOT record this.