Claim by 'Stevo' - "CEOP show Maddie is missing on 30th April 2007"

@Bluebag. Can you back up this FACT with irrefutable evidence please as there are very many people who would be interested to see it, probably including archive.com (IMO)

@ Doug D

I have always had the opinion that they were supposed to have been jemmied, but for some reason (Jez appearing maybe?) it did not happen.

Yes they were certainly supposed to be jemmied, but as we know it didn't happen. If Maddie died on the evening of 3rd May then I think you could be correct and Jez appearing possibly scuppered the plans.

If there was preplanning, however, going back several days, then jemmying the shutters would not have been left to the last minute, they would have been jemmied. They would have had days to make sure everything went according to plan.

The script that was relayed back to the folks at home accounted for the ‘jemmying’ (wasn’t it Phil. who wasn’t even sure what the word was and even meant?) and once their stories were out it was too late to change the story.

Not quite. The shutters didn't get jemmied but despite that the McCanns STILL told their friends and family in the UK that they HAD been jemmied.

You're quite right about Phil, she wasn't sure what jemmied meant, she was just repeating what she had been told to say.

Nuala wrote:@ Doug D

I have always had the opinion that they were supposed to have been jemmied, but for some reason (Jez appearing maybe?) it did not happen.

Yes they were certainly supposed to be jemmied, but as we know it didn't happen. If Maddie died on the evening of 3rd May then I think you could be correct and Jez appearing possibly scuppered the plans.

If there was preplanning, however, going back several days, then jemmying the shutters would not have been left to the last minute, they would have been jemmied. They would have had days to make sure everything went according to plan.

The script that was relayed back to the folks at home accounted for the ‘jemmying’ (wasn’t it Phil. who wasn’t even sure what the word was and even meant?) and once their stories were out it was too late to change the story.

Not quite. The shutters didn't get jemmied but despite that the McCanns STILL told their friends and family in the UK that they HAD been jemmied.

You're quite right about Phil, she wasn't sure what jemmied meant, she was just repeating what she had been told to say.

I don't think the windows would have been "jemmied" earlier. If it was all planned, they couldn't risk anyone seeing broken windows before the "abduction". The jemmied windows had to happen at the time that the "abductor" would have done his/her dirty deed.

However, I agree (my opinion, only) that Jeremy Wilkins threw a spanner in the works when he came face to face with GM.

@Nuala---"If the capture is correct i.e. there was a live CEOP web page concerning Maddie McCann on the Internet on 30th April 2007, it doesn't necessarily mean there was an event prior to 3rd May. The event could still have taken place on 3rd May. What the CEOP page would show is that the event (whatever date that event took place) was premeditated and preplanned.

They're actually two different issues.

I don't believe in any premeditation or preplanning for one very simple reason, had the event been premeditated and preplanned the shutters would have been jemmied."


For the reason you state and other considerations I also do not believe in premeditation nor preplanning--not of the death, anyway. What the capture seems to imply is that an event happened prior to May 3,  that event theoretically being an accidental killing during the commission of, ahh, other illegal activities which would theoretically necessitate a cover-up. In the parents' theoretical predicament, almost anyone would enlist the help of a 'friend' who was in a position to help mount a high profile 'official' abduction cover story. [especially if that same friend is of the opinion that child porn viewers should be shown leniency but I digress] In my opinion, the first shot of the campaign was commenced in haste, BEFORE  the corpse was securely hidden, which is of course is THE crucial element of any abduction cover story. [If the Ramsey case with it's sexual abuse findings taught us anything..]  First behind the sofa, then in the wardrobe...perhaps it was decided that Portuguese police maybe aren't Boulder level stupid after all, that an abduction cover story perhaps shouldn't be commenced right away, and that perhaps they should wait until AFTER the body was safely away from the premises. Hence, the mccann.html was pulled or hidden until the proper time.. Enter Murat's hasty return to PDL at the crucial time in question, his subsequent handy insertion into the case, and the several indications that he and G. McCann had knowledge of and communications with each other during this period.

Mistakes were made, for sure, all of them certainly due to hubris.

sallypelt wrote:

Nuala wrote:@ Doug D

I have always had the opinion that they were supposed to have been jemmied, but for some reason (Jez appearing maybe?) it did not happen.

Yes they were certainly supposed to be jemmied, but as we know it didn't happen. If Maddie died on the evening of 3rd May then I think you could be correct and Jez appearing possibly scuppered the plans.

If there was preplanning, however, going back several days, then jemmying the shutters would not have been left to the last minute, they would have been jemmied. They would have had days to make sure everything went according to plan.

The script that was relayed back to the folks at home accounted for the ‘jemmying’ (wasn’t it Phil. who wasn’t even sure what the word was and even meant?) and once their stories were out it was too late to change the story.

Not quite. The shutters didn't get jemmied but despite that the McCanns STILL told their friends and family in the UK that they HAD been jemmied.

You're quite right about Phil, she wasn't sure what jemmied meant, she was just repeating what she had been told to say.

I don't think the windows would have been "jemmied" earlier. If it was all planned, they couldn't risk anyone seeing broken windows before the "abduction". The jemmied windows had to happen at the time that the "abductor" would have done his/her dirty deed.

However, I agree (my opinion, only) that Jeremy Wilkins threw a spanner in the works when he came face to face with GM.

Definitely agree with this Sallypelt. What with so many people around, on site staff, maintenance, cleaners, etc, the McCs could not take the risk of any damage being spotted earlier so any jammying/jemmying would have to have been done on the night. There may even have been a bit of banging and crashing added for theatrical effect for the neighbour's benefit, as it would have been a bonus if Mrs Fenn or another neighbour could have reported hearing noises of shutters banging at such and such a time........BUT Jez Wilkins happened along, and they never were jemmied. No evidence of jemmying. No witnesses. No nothing.

Sorry off topic 

Anybody got an opinion/theory on the Wayback machine and it's replaying a McCann file on 30/04/07 or have I strayed onto the wrong universe.

HKP, my opinion fwiw is this didn't happen. I posted twice about the screenshot I made---I can't post links or images so see my last tweet @MollyeWasaDame for the cap---of code embedded in the May 13, 2007 capture of mccann.html, the page to which we are now redirected from the April 30th capture. The code embedded in the May 13 page makes it plain as day that the nearest previous capture of mccann.html was April 30th, 2007. Yet another piece of code that needs to be explained away by debunkers. When you have several different corroborating pieces of code all pointing to one date and one date only the onus is on people who insist this is an error.

@whodunnit. Despite some claiming it as fact there is certainly enough circumstantial (because we cannot prove it) evidence that the original archiving was conducted on 30/04. All this what about the October Misfile is s load of tosh IMO.

That should have said fact that the Wayback was in error claims

When or IF WBM gives a credible explanation in plain language as to HOW this supposed error occurred then I will concede that an error occurred.

I can see how some would be confused by October dates on an April 30th capture of the homepage--and it WAS an April 30th capture because this date ALSO occurs in the May 14th code under the previous captures heading--- but imo this is 1. A separate issue from the mccann.html capture and 2. plausibly explained by a.) dynamic content or b.) a capture was made while CEOP was in the process of editing the page. If neither of these explanations are true then let's hear it---from WBM.

You're quite right about Phil, she wasn't sure what jemmied meant, she was just repeating what she had been told to say.

She was brought up on the Southside.  EVERYBODY in Glasgow knows what "jemmied" means.  That ridiculous statement and the stupid little giggle that went with it, just proves what a terrible actress she is.  She is maybe even trying to show how "posh" she is, that she doesn't recognise a bit of good old Weedgie slang when she hears it.  Well, you can take the lassie out of Govanhill...

@whodunnit. Agreed

BlueBag wrote:Wow... I think we have our own Madeleine "no planes".

I've contained myself for a few days but enough is enough, I can't let this ride.

It is a FACT the WBM was in error over an October 2007 page appearing under April 30th 2007.

Don't ask me ask Steve Marsden.

FACT.

F.. A.. C.. T...

Check his Facebook thread.

F.. A.. C.. T...

WBM was IN ERROR.

No one can possibly argue that the WBM is not on error, it's was there for all to see from the horses mouth.

No one.

And that absolutely puts the other data with the same time stamp in doubt.

Absolutely without a shadow of a doubt.. it is doubtful data.. more.. it is almost certainly in error for the same reason.

If you want to carry on making this forum look irrational and illogical then carry on, someone somewhere will use it against us I'm sure.

Any BS about comparing "apples" and "oranges" is just that.

This is apples and apples off the same 20070430 115803 tree.

I feel really strongly about this because I am probably the most experienced IT person on this forum.

Anyone been programming and working as an IT consultant since 1981?

I am a java programming expert (among many other branches of IT expertise) and I don't say that lightly.

+1 BB thank you

Some info. about authenticating data from WBM:

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Anonymous wrote:

You're quite right about Phil, she wasn't sure what jemmied meant, she was just repeating what she had been told to say.

She was brought up on the Southside.  EVERYBODY in Glasgow knows what "jemmied" means.  That ridiculous statement and the stupid little giggle that went with it, just proves what a terrible actress she is.  She is maybe even trying to show how "posh" she is, that she doesn't recognise a bit of good old Weedgie slang when she hears it.  Well, you can take the lassie out of Govanhill...

Was it not Patricia Cameron who said jammied - although the above still applies as I can't believe anyone in Glasgow has not heard or used the expression, I have even heard it as jimmied.

Whilst I can appreciate that folks are allowed to have their own points of view we have some who wish to stiffle the debate with I've been working in IT since time began capers. I've seen many people who have worked many many years in their field and they are still hopless! Time  does not necessarily equate to competence! However the point being made is that one file is wrong then the rest is very much in doubt. Well we have some sort of evidence that one piece (not the McCann.htm file btw) may have some sort of error but that (at this moment in time) is one in 485 billion. Seems a reasonably robust system to me.

From their legal faq.
It remains your burden to convince the finder of fact what pages were up when. 
So looks like whoever is disputing the data needs to prove it if i am reading that correctly? And it's not WBM's burden to prove anything, just give the information they have on record, as per the link i posted.

BlueBag wrote:Wow... I think we have our own Madeleine "no planes".

I've contained myself for a few days but enough is enough, I can't let this ride.

It is a FACT the WBM was in error over an October 2007 page appearing under April 30th 2007.

Don't ask me ask Steve Marsden.

FACT.

F.. A.. C.. T...

Check his Facebook thread.

F.. A.. C.. T...

WBM was IN ERROR.

No one can possibly argue that the WBM is not on error, it's was there for all to see from the horses mouth.

No one.

And that absolutely puts the other data with the same time stamp in doubt.

Absolutely without a shadow of a doubt.. it is doubtful data.. more.. it is almost certainly in error for the same reason.

If you want to carry on making this forum look irrational and illogical then carry on, someone somewhere will use it against us I'm sure.

Any BS about comparing "apples" and "oranges" is just that.

This is apples and apples off the same 20070430 115803 tree.

I feel really strongly about this because I am probably the most experienced IT person on this forum.

Anyone been programming and working as an IT consultant since 1981?

I am a java programming expert (among many other branches of IT expertise) and I don't say that lightly.

As it happens, you're NOT the most experienced IT person on this forum.  However, I'm not sure what the relevance of that is.

I do agree with you that this is almost certainly a mistake in the archiving on the Wayback Machine.  My experience and the fact that there are a number of anomolies (like October news on a May Archive) shows that it's not infallible.

However, this is far too important a point, with wide reaching consequences, to just let drop because it looks like an error.  I fully support TB and others as they push the point with the web archive and we need to get an explanation for why this happened that's acceptable to all.

I would only say though that, in my opinion, this WILL turn out to be an error and we should just be careful about jumping to any conclusions or stating anything as fact until we do know what happened.

macdonut wrote:

BlueBag wrote:Wow... I think we have our own Madeleine "no planes".

I've contained myself for a few days but enough is enough, I can't let this ride.

It is a FACT the WBM was in error over an October 2007 page appearing under April 30th 2007.

Don't ask me ask Steve Marsden.

FACT.

F.. A.. C.. T...

Check his Facebook thread.

F.. A.. C.. T...

WBM was IN ERROR.

No one can possibly argue that the WBM is not on error, it's was there for all to see from the horses mouth.

No one.

And that absolutely puts the other data with the same time stamp in doubt.

Absolutely without a shadow of a doubt.. it is doubtful data.. more.. it is almost certainly in error for the same reason.

If you want to carry on making this forum look irrational and illogical then carry on, someone somewhere will use it against us I'm sure.

Any BS about comparing "apples" and "oranges" is just that.

This is apples and apples off the same 20070430 115803 tree.

I feel really strongly about this because I am probably the most experienced IT person on this forum.

Anyone been programming and working as an IT consultant since 1981?

I am a java programming expert (among many other branches of IT expertise) and I don't say that lightly.

As it happens, you're NOT the most experienced IT person on this forum.  However, I'm not sure what the relevance of that is.

I do agree with you that this is almost certainly a mistake in the archiving on the Wayback Machine.  My experience and the fact that there are a number of anomolies (like October news on a May Archive) shows that it's not infallible.

However, this is far too important a point, with wide reaching consequences, to just let drop because it looks like an error.  I fully support TB and others as they push the point with the web archive and we need to get an explanation for why this happened that's acceptable to all.

I would only say though that, in my opinion, this WILL turn out to be an error and we should just be careful about jumping to any conclusions or stating anything as fact until we do know what happened.

BBM, I agree, but who is going to obtain the relevent information from WBM? Looks like there are some steps to take to do that from what i have posted and read.

@macdonut. A much more sensible approach

This is just my opinion on the matter.

I've followed best I can for nearly 100 pages.  And as far as I'm concerned BlueBag has convinced me WMB had a brain fart and messed up.  Whether you get a full explanation from WBM is another thing, plus even if we do, somebody will say they don't believe them anyway.
Sometimes you have to trust somebody elses 'facts' so in this instance, I trust BlueBag has called this correct.

Why it's always the ****ing Mccanns is another argument.

MRNOODLES wrote:This is just my opinion on the matter.

I've followed best I can for nearly 100 pages.  And as far as I'm concerned BlueBag has convinced me WMB had a brain fart and messed up.  Whether you get a full explanation from WBM is another thing, plus even if we do, somebody will say they don't believe them anyway.
Sometimes you have to trust somebody elses 'facts' so in this instance, I trust BlueBag has called this correct.

Why it's always the ****ing Mccanns is another argument.

I agree, BB and others have the knowledge when it comes to the technical side of the internet, and their knowledge has certainly helped in trying to ascertain exactly why WBM archived that particular information on the 30/4 as it did. It certainly has been an education in how all this stuff works, even though for someone that is not internet savvy it can all be rather confusing, and i am certainly in that category, but it is interesting nonetheless.
It does seem rather coincidental as you say that this is yet another discrepency in the McCann case. Too many discrepencies IMO.

As the Saintly Kate might have said
"One discrepancy, two discrepancies, after that they become something more sinister"

whodunnit wrote:

In my opinion, the first shot of the campaign was commenced in haste, BEFORE  the corpse was securely hidden, which is of course is THE crucial element of any abduction cover story.
-----------------------------------------------

Hence, 'the going back out again', to 'search'' at 4am, 4th May 2007, BY....... DP & GM?

DP later 'STATED', (to Leicestershire Police) on record, that he did NOT 'partake' in ANY 'search' on the 4th May 2007!

Hence, only DP&GM, 'going out, again' at 4am, 4th May 2007, 'to MOVE 'something' from 'somewhere', to securely 'hide' 'somewhere' else?

A church 'yard'?

GM 'asked' a GNR officer, did he, the officer, know, 'where a church was?'

Bit odd, for a 'devout' Catholic, who had been 'in' PDL, for 6 DAYS, to 'ask', imo.

Only 3 'churches' in PDL, i believe.

'all' on 'record'!

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He, (Rui-Silva) only had direct contact with the couple and their friends at about 04.00 when Gerry McCann approached the GNR group of which he was a member to ask whether there was a church close by. He replied to him in English, giving the directions to a nearby church.

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He, DP, did not partake in the searches realized on the 4th of May, because, on this day, he spent to majority of time in the police headquarters.
------------------------------------------------------------------
"Once you have started with one lie you have to make up 1,000 lies to cover that one. Once I had started ('lying') there was no turning back."

Anonymous wrote:

You're quite right about Phil, she wasn't sure what jemmied meant, she was just repeating what she had been told to say.

She was brought up on the Southside.  EVERYBODY in Glasgow knows what "jemmied" means.  That ridiculous statement and the stupid little giggle that went with it, just proves what a terrible actress she is.  She is maybe even trying to show how "posh" she is, that she doesn't recognise a bit of good old Weedgie slang when she hears it.  Well, you can take the lassie out of Govanhill...

While we're there, shout out to Govan, Govanhill, Ibrox, Cessnock, Kinning Park & PR West!!!! BOOM!!

For 'accuracy's' sake, it WAS Tricia Cameron, GM's sister, that said about "the shutters had been jammied open... or whatever you call it, and Madeleine was missing."

NOT Philomena McCann.

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Transcript

By Nigel Moore

Reporter: Well, the McCann family, Gerry and Kate, with their twins and three-year-old Madeleine went on holiday to Portugal last Saturday, from their home in Rothley, in Leicestershire. They'd gone to a popular resort on the coast of the Algarve with a group of other families; nine adults; eight children; all on holiday together. Now, last night Madeleine and the twins were left sleeping in their room, while her parents had a meal in a restaurant two hundred yards away - and they did regular checks on them - but at ten o'clock last night there was a huge shock for Kate. Madeleine's aunt who lives in Scotland, takes up the story.

Trish Cameron: They last checked at half past nine; they were all sound asleep, sleeping; windows shut; shutters shut. Kate went back at ten o'clock to check; the front door was lying open; the window had been tampered with; the shutters had been jammied open... or whatever you call it, and Madeleine was missing.
-------------------------------------------------
"one" of my all time 'favourites'"

Trish Cameron: "They last checked at half past nine; they were all sound asleep, sleeping; windows shut; shutters shut."

SO, THAT'S TEN MINUTES AFTER JANE TANNER HAD 'SEEN' 'MADELEINE BEING 'CARRIED OFF' BY 'TANNERMAN', AT 9:20PM!

THE 'BURGLATOR' MUST HAVE 'COME BACK' TO APARTMENT G5A TO 'SMASH, AND RAISE, THE SHUTTER' (KM) AND 'OPEN THE WINDOW, WIDE'............... ELEVEN MINUTES AFTER 'OUR' JANE HAD 'SEEN' HIM 'ABDUCTING' MADELEINE!

Because,

'according' to GM's own SISTER, Trish,

AT 'half past nine' (9:30pm) the WINDOW 'was SHUT' and the 'shutter was SHUT'

And

'according' to GM's sister, Trish, 'they (Madeleine and twins) were ALL (Madeleine and twins) sound asleep, sleeping;...'

AT........... HALF PAST NINE!

Now, , if only we could get a 'figure' in 'authority', say, like a 30 year career, DCI, to 'shift/move/chivvy' the 'timeline' 'along', somehow, to 'nearer' say 10:00pm, 3rd May 2007. That would 'eliminate' any 'dodgy' handwritten 'timelines' and anyone mentioned in 'them', wouldn't it?

Oh, hang on.................

Solely in the aim of ensuring a balanced discussion I am bringing some words from the sensible Resistor to this forum - I hope they wont mind:

Resistor says this in response to a question by another poster regarding BB's assertion that it is a fact that Wayback machine made an error:


Really?  I didn't even know it was a competition.  And I really am astonished at the number of "experts" with "degrees in Computing Science" and God alone knows what else, suddenly crawling from the woodwork, who immediately think that we should just all believe them without question.

Well, I am not going to tell anyone what my experience and qualifications are, because as I already said, it's not a pissing contest.  What I will say is that I am by no means an expert in every single IT field.  I'm always learning something new, even from amateurs; and there is no way I would expect everyone to believe everything I post just because I have "degrees" and "I said so".

I've already posted a few pages back on this thread, an example of how Wayback recreates pages taken both from the current date and the future.*  Anyone can go and look up anything I have written.  I don't expect anyone to blindly accept my word on anything, but because I am confident in my own hypotheses and have laid out evidence and examples, people can make up their own minds.

I still believe that Wayback was and is 100% correct in it's crawl, it couldn't have captured something that was not there, and CEOP - Jim Gamble in particular - has a lot of explaining to do.

*ETA it's on page 41.

HelenMeg wrote:Really? 

Yes really.

100% fact the WBM is in error.

Indisputable.

Ask Steve Marsden because he highlighted the problem right at the start of his Facebook thread (did you bother to read it?).

And he was the one who started all this.

Guess what.. even the best software can go wrong as Apple and Microsoft will attest.

And no it's not a competition... I have 34 years experience of analyising/fixing computer glitches/bugs/"features".. I've caused a few myself.

You can ignore me if you like, I could care less. I do care about this forum though.

@helenmeg. Another astute post from Resistor, thanks for bringing it across.

I don;t know enough about this to get involved, but for posterity I have just copied this from Twitter
Saved from Whooshing !

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