Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

by Guest 31.12.14 9:25

Are some people now saying that the MO visit makes sense?

I'd like to see how.

by Guest 31.12.14 10:02

columbostogeys wrote:
scrants wrote:Tony,

I did not say that none of them knew. I think David Payne and Fiona knew and that David's supposed visit to 5a was invented to show that Madeleine was still alive at that time.

If the rest of them were genuinely under the impression that it all happened as the Mccanns said, Jane Tanner seeing Crechman could be true. After all, Andy Redwood tells us he exists. She was trying to help and her embellishments etc. we're well intentioned, if ludicrous, efforts to help.

The same with Russell O'Brien. I personally cannot see anything very strange about writing his timeline on the sticker book or anything else. There probably wasn't anything else to hand. He is a trained doctor so he was probably trying to do things logically.

Fiona Payne was probably in the know and saw the opportunity to point the finger away from the Mccanns. I seem to remember that the man who resembled Murat was supposed to be one of MW staff who was there on the night. It would be interesting to know who first 'remembered' Murat being there on the night. The power of suggestion/persuasion under stressful circumstances can be very strong. Perhaps Fiona suggested it to the others like "Wasn't he that man we sawthat night?"

You'll probably shoot me down in flames but I have tried to answer your questions as best I can.
Totally agree with what you wrote.

I think if there was a pact it was only with DP and and the McCanns. This would never have worked if you had so many players in the game.

I think we all make this case far too complicated, i dont think it is complicated at all. I can easily work out two different scenarios one for abduction and one against.

This case cant be complicated as it would have been solved by now, as too many errors could have been made.

I have only just clicked that not only were the Paynes missing from the Crimewatch reconstruction, they were also conspicuous by their absence in the Mockumentary, "Madeleine Was Here".

It would appear the McCanns, as well as OG, want as little mention of the Paynes as possible.

I find it very significant that the Paynes are appearing to be the only couple of the Tapas 7 that appear to be being whooshed as much as possible. It is also notable that the Paynes, along with the McCanns were the most hysterical that night. My interpretation of the facts that I've seen only.

by **PeterMac** 31.12.14 10:50

Dee Coy wrote:
I have only just clicked that not only were the Paynes missing from the Crimewatch reconstruction, they were also conspicuous by their absence in the Mockumentary, "Madeleine Was Here".
It would appear the McCanns, as well as OG, want as little mention of the Paynes as possible.
I find it very significant that the Paynes are appearing to be the only couple of the Tapas 7 that appear to be being whooshed as much as possible. It is also notable that the Paynes, along with the McCanns were the most hysterical that night. My interpretation of the facts that I've seen only.

Payne claims to have visited the apartment - but probably didn't
Fiona Payne claims to have been IN the apartment at that time, but neither St Katherine nor Payne husband make reference to this.
Fiona Payne is a qualified anaesthetist, as was St Katherine, and may have been involved in the sedation of the (remaining) children, either as accessory, or as witness to the act,
but also as witness to the actual number of children present
The Paynes therefore collectively know far too much for comfort, and given the gibbering inconsequentiality of rogatories, and the fact that the story has not been rehearsed in sufficient detail
they become extremely dangerous
Just a thought !

by aiyoyo 31.12.14 14:58

[quote="Dee Coy"]
I have only just clicked that not only were the Paynes missing from the Crimewatch reconstruction, they were also conspicuous by their absence in the Mockumentary, "Madeleine Was Here".

It would appear the McCanns, as well as OG, want as little mention of the Paynes as possible.

I find it very significant that the Paynes are appearing to be the only couple of the Tapas 7 that appear to be being whooshed as much as possible. It is also notable that the Paynes, along with the McCanns were the most hysterical that night. My interpretation of the facts that I've seen only.[/quote]

Whose version (Kate or Payne) to use though even if they'd wanted to feature Payne's visit in the CW or Mockumentary? They can't do it. It's simply not do-able. The two versions are so contrasting as if chalk to cheese. Payne inside the apt with three angelic looking kids lounging about on the sofa within his view, or Kate wrapped in her bathrobe talking to a Payne standing outside the lounge and no kids in view?

The visit did not take place, the Police must know it.
If I went visiting my friend in her apartment and she came out in a bathrobe to meet me that would register with me, not question about it. That would perhaps even be etched onto my memory since it coincides on Maddie's disappearance day.

by **PeterMac** 31.12.14 15:22

aiyoyo wrote:
Whose version (Kate or Payne) to use though even if they'd wanted to feature Payne's visit in the CW or Mockumentary? They can't do it. It's simply not do-able. The two versions are so contrasting as if chalk to cheese. Payne inside the apt with three angelic looking kids lounging about on the sofa within his view, or Kate wrapped in her bathrobe talking to a Payne standing outside the lounge and no kids in view?
The visit did not take place, the Police must know it.
If I went visiting my friend in her apartment and she came out in a bathrobe to meet me that would register with me, not question about it. That would perhaps even be etched onto my memory since it coincides on Maddie's disappearance day.

Which is precisely why they refused to go back for a reconstructions.
The Payne visit is not do-able
The half hourly Benny Hill visits are not do-able
The Tanner squeezing past the men on the pavement is not do-able, which they proved when Gerry insisted the other two were both lying and reduced Tanner to tears,
The setting of the curtains, shutters, window for the various visits is not do-able
The PJ would have been in absolute stitches just watching them all start fighting over whose statement was going to take precedence at any point, and would then have arrested the lot
None of it took place, and the Police of two countries KNOW it.

by phil_burton 31.12.14 17:15

Peter, I've long thought that David Payne holds the key to this.

His testimony of his visit to the apartment on the 3rd was full of contradictions and strange detail. If you believe in the theory that MM died on the 3rd, but earlier in the day, then DPs visit seems very odd. Why was he so keen to emphasise that all 3 Mccann children were alive and well?

In addition, the British police withheld the Gaspar statements that had been made about DP on May 17th until October. Why would the British police hold on to that information for 5 months? Why protect him?

All my opinion of course

by **PeterMac** 31.12.14 17:27

phil_burton wrote:Peter, I've long thought that David Payne holds the key to this.
His testimony of his visit to the apartment on the 3rd was full of contradictions and strange detail. If you believe in the theory that MM died on the 3rd, but earlier in the day, then DPs visit seems very odd. Why was he so keen to emphasise that they were still alive ?
In addition, the British police withheld the Gaspar statements that had been made about DP on May 17th until October. Why would the British police hold on to that information for 5 months? Why protect him?
All my opinion of course

Whichever day Madeleine died his reported visit was clearly to try to establish that she was alive and well around 6pm.
Then, possibly when they realised that the Dr Amaral was not buying it, and it became clear that Payne, or Kate, had messed up seriously with their totally different accounts
they had to find something else to show that she was OK at Lunchtime,
dah, dah ! ! !
The Miracle of the Last Photo, produced two weeks later and sent throughout the world by Mitchell, and before being shown to the PJ so that it couldn't be looked at in detail.

Remember that everyone else had been shipped off to the Paraiso, and not one of the rest of the group can recall seeing Madeleine on 3/5/7. AT ALL.
And that Kate's autobiography is so full of extraneous detail that it is a very big red flag. Exhausted by an afternoon of finger painting, so tired she could not longer even WALK, and so on
It is this train of thought which compels me to 'purport' that Madeleine was not alive at all on 3/5/7.
Which is why I tend to the evening of 2/5/7, and the domestic dispute scenario, causing them both to ignore the children when they went to their separate rooms

by Realist 31.12.14 19:30

Joss wrote:
The whole lot of them were trying to get their stories straight at that time IMO.

Yes, they were, but not for the reasons of aiding and abetting the McCanns in the death and disposal of their daughter's body. They were prepared to be uncooperative and hinder the investigation, but that's as far as they were prepared to go. This is supported by Dr. Oldfield's refusal to commit himself to seeing Madeleine at 9.30 pm on the night of her supposed disappearance, whilst identifying the twins as being present in the full knowledge that nothing untoward had happened to them.

by Realist 31.12.14 19:46

PeterMac wrote:

Which is why I tend to the evening of 2/5/7, and the domestic dispute scenario, causing them both to ignore the children when they went to their separate rooms

Can you clarify your position here, Peter. Are you intimating that Madeleine may have met with a fatal accident in a separate room whilst the McCanns were present in the apt. after having some kind of altercation.

If so, the problem I have with this synopsis is, why would there be the need to dispose of their daughter's body and adopt the highly risky gambit of concocting a phoney kidnapping story? This of course brings us back to the question of why would any sane minded person wish to turn an accident into a serious criminal act? I fully appreciate that the McCanns, as you have so eloquently demonstrated, are not the most articulate and literate specimens on the planet, but by the same hypothesis, they certainly aren't fools.

by noddy100 31.12.14 20:15

I also think only the paynes 'know'
The others I believe know that the holiday was a bit dodgy in other ways and so don't want it looked at too closely
but I think they believe she was abducted and their convoluted timelines etc are misplaced loyalty and a desire to help
in a situation where everyone was doing something a bit 'wrong'

by tiny 31.12.14 20:27

noddy100 wrote:I also think only the paynes 'know'
The others I believe know that the holiday was a bit dodgy in other ways and so don't want it looked at too closely
but I think they believe she was abducted and their convoluted timelines etc are misplaced loyalty and a desire to help
in a situation where everyone was doing something a bit 'wrong'

Are you saying that the other tapas friends to this day still think Madeleine was abducted.surely you don't believe they haven't read the pj files
and haven't been following everything that is on the internet about this case.

by Realist 31.12.14 20:31

noddy100 wrote:
The others I believe know that the holiday was a bit dodgy in other ways and so don't want it looked at too closely
but I think they believe she was abducted

They may well have initially believed the McCann's daughter was abducted, but I doubt after analysing all the evidence over the past 7 odd yrs. they are still of that belief. Certainly not Diane Webster, whom if I am correct, was the only person who didn't bother leaving the Tapas bar when Kate McCann hysterically announced the news that her daughter had been 'taken.'

by **PeterMac** 31.12.14 22:18

Can you clarify your position here, Peter. Are you intimating that Madeleine may have met with a fatal accident in a separate room whilst the McCanns were present in the apt. after having some kind of altercation.

Yes. No.

by scrants 01.01.15 0:12

Whatever happened to Madeleine must have happened before the Mccanns went to dinner because if, when Kate did her check at 10pm, she found Madeleine dead and, knowing that there would be an investigation and post mortum if they called the emergency services, it makes no sense that she should immediately tell the whole group that Madeleine was 'gone'.

Telling everyone and instigating hysteria and mayhem would make cleaning up and body disposal next to impossible.

Under this circumstance you would expect her to discreetly alert Gerry and make some excuse for him to return to the apartment so that they could together quietly 'clean up' and decide what to do. Possibly getting the Paynes involved later in the night after everyone had gone to bed. For everyone else Madeleine would have disappeared overnight.

All this is my opinion only of course and is only exploring possibilities of what may have occurred.

by Joss 01.01.15 3:13

Realist wrote:
Joss wrote:
The whole lot of them were trying to get their stories straight at that time IMO.

Yes, they were, but not for the reasons of aiding and abetting the McCanns in the death and disposal of their daughter's body. They were prepared to be uncooperative and hinder the investigation, but that's as far as they were prepared to go. This is supported by Dr. Oldfield's refusal to commit himself to seeing Madeleine at 9.30 pm on the night of her supposed disappearance, whilst identifying the twins as being present in the full knowledge that nothing untoward had happened to them.

I don't think any of us can say with any certainty what the Tapas crew were aiding & abetting the McC's with, and what knowledge any one of them had about Maddie's disappearance. You state as if you know the facts and reasons of what the tapas friends did, none of us know that. What we do here is mere speculation with what we have from information, and its anyone's guess as to what exactly happened in the lead up to the events in question of a missing child in this case, and why she hasn't been found yet.

by Joss 01.01.15 3:23

noddy100 wrote:I also think only the paynes 'know'
The others I believe know that the holiday was a bit dodgy in other ways and so don't want it looked at too closely
but I think they believe she was abducted and their convoluted timelines etc are misplaced loyalty and a desire to help
in a situation where everyone was doing something a bit 'wrong'

I think they got things more than "a bit wrong". At least a few of them deliberately lied for the McC's that we are aware of, i wonder why they would do that when a little child is missing? That's pretty serious stuff, IMO, and they could of been thrown in prison for it.

by Joss 01.01.15 3:41

This from Tanner:
[color:3258=000000]Jane Tanner was widely alleged to be one of the 2 Tapas group members who wished to amend their original witness statements but who wanted to remain anonymous, due to the fear of pressure from the McCanns and their supporters.

[color:3258=000000][color:3258=000000]From O'Brian:

[color:3258=000000]"I have nothing further to tell you. I am not going to dishonour the compromise I assumed with Kate and Gerry. They want to control all information that is disclosed."

[color:3258=000000][color:3258=000000]From Oldfield:

[color:3258=000000]Dr Matthew Oldfield, husband of Rachael Oldfield, is alleged to have checked on the McCanns' children at 9.30pm. However, he is reported to have since admitted that he did not actually see Madeleine in her bed but assumed she was there because he couldn't hear any noise.

[color:3258=000000][color:3258=000000]From R. Oldfield:

Rachael Oldfield, wife of Dr Matthew Oldfield, does not appear to have taken part in any of the alleged checks that took place on the night of May 3rd.

She is one of the 3 Tapas group members (with Dr Russell O'Brien and Dr Fiona Payne) who were recalled by the Portugese police to clear up queries in their statements and 'confront' Robert Murat.

[color:3258=000000]From D. Payne:
[color:3258=000000]It is reported that Mr Payne was playing in a tennis competition, which included Gerry, on the early evening of May 3rd. It is alleged that when he had been eliminated from the competition, Gerry asked him to pop into their apartment and check on Kate. Reports state that Mr Payne saw Madeleine being put to bed, by Kate, at 6.30pm. If true, this would make David Payne the last 'independent' witness to see Madeleine before her disappearance.
[color:3258=000000]Commenting on the fact that the McCanns had been made offical suspects, he said: "We know they didn't do it. One of our party saw Madeleine being abducted. We were waiting for something to happen but didn't in our worst nightmare think it would be this."

[color:3258=000000]From F. Payne:
[color:3258=000000]She is also one of the three Tapas group (with Dr Russell O'Brien and Rachael Oldfield) who were recalled by the Portugese police to clear up queries in their statements and 'confront' Robert Murat.

[color:3258=000000]From D. Webster:
[color:3258=000000]Dianne Webster, Dr Fiona Payne's mother, is alleged to have told police that each couple were responsible for checking their own children. She was the only member of the 'Tapas Nine' to have her testimony translated by Robert Murat, according to Murat's lawyer.

It is widely reported that she was the only member of the Tapas group to remain seated following Kate's announcement that Madeleine had been 'taken' and has never given any interviews or offered any statements.
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by Joss 01.01.15 3:49

It seems from some of those tapas statements they were trying to finger R. Murat for Maddie's abduction.

by Joss 01.01.15 3:56

Note also their unwavering "loyalty" to Kate & Gerry. Tanner almost sounds fearful of the infamous K & G McC. Wonder why? Something to hide perhaps? The whole lot of them sound "Dodgy" to me in their statements, except maybe D. Webster who perhaps wasn't in "the know". Therefore i am of the opinion they knew what happened, and are covering vital information.

by Joss 01.01.15 4:47

[color:59ec=000000]Madeleine witnesses 'may have mistaken this friend of the McCanns for Murat' on night she disappeared

[color:59ec=000000]EXCLUSIVE MADDIE DETECTIVES FORCED TO ADMIT THEY'VE NO CASE

[color:59ec=000000]The decision to rule out Murat, 34, means detectives now have no solid suspects, no leads and no clues - effectively signalling the end of the hunt for Maddie.

And it puts them under massive pressure to announce Maddie's 39-year-old parents Kate and Gerry are also officially out of the frame.

Murat has been left a broken man by his ordeal.

He has been bombarded with hate-mail from around the world - including threats to kidnap his five-year-old daughter Sofia.

And he has even had to endure leaked police reports claiming - wrongly - child-porn was found on his computers.

A source said: "This is basically the end of the investigation - there's no avenue left to turn down.

"But what Murat's been left with is a life sentence looking over his shoulder."
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by tiny 01.01.15 8:29

Realist wrote:
noddy100 wrote:
The others I believe know that the holiday was a bit dodgy in other ways and so don't want it looked at too closely
but I think they believe she was abducted

They may well have initially believed the McCann's daughter was abducted, but I doubt after analysing all the evidence over the past 7 odd yrs. they are still of that belief. Certainly not Diane Webster, whom if I am correct, was the only person who didn't bother leaving the Tapas bar when Kate McCann hysterically announced the news that her daughter had been 'taken.'

Don't you find that strange,if that were my friends daughter, no way would I still be sitting in the tapas bar,i would have rushed with them to see what had happened.

by Mo 01.01.15 9:16

tiny wrote:
Realist wrote:
noddy100 wrote:
The others I believe know that the holiday was a bit dodgy in other ways and so don't want it looked at too closely
but I think they believe she was abducted

They may well have initially believed the McCann's daughter was abducted, but I doubt after analysing all the evidence over the past 7 odd yrs. they are still of that belief. Certainly not Diane Webster, whom if I am correct, was the only person who didn't bother leaving the Tapas bar when Kate McCann hysterically announced the news that her daughter had been 'taken.'
Don't you find that strange,if that were my friends daughter, no way would I still be sitting in the tapas bar,i

would have rushed with them to see what had happened.

My understanding is that Diane Webster's daughter told her to wait at the table in case MM went by.

by tiny 01.01.15 9:21

Mo wrote:
tiny wrote:
Realist wrote:
noddy100 wrote:
The others I believe know that the holiday was a bit dodgy in other ways and so don't want it looked at too closely
but I think they believe she was abducted

They may well have initially believed the McCann's daughter was abducted, but I doubt after analysing all the evidence over the past 7 odd yrs. they are still of that belief. Certainly not Diane Webster, whom if I am correct, was the only person who didn't bother leaving the Tapas bar when Kate McCann hysterically announced the news that her daughter had been 'taken.'
Don't you find that strange,if that were my friends daughter, no way would I still be sitting in the tapas bar,i

would have rushed with them to see what had happened.
My understanding is that Diane Webster's daughter told her to wait at the table in case MM went by.

So she said,sorry,dont buy it.

by Joss 01.01.15 10:42

tiny wrote:
Mo wrote:
tiny wrote:
Realist wrote:
noddy100 wrote:
The others I believe know that the holiday was a bit dodgy in other ways and so don't want it looked at too closely
but I think they believe she was abducted

They may well have initially believed the McCann's daughter was abducted, but I doubt after analysing all the evidence over the past 7 odd yrs. they are still of that belief. Certainly not Diane Webster, whom if I am correct, was the only person who didn't bother leaving the Tapas bar when Kate McCann hysterically announced the news that her daughter had been 'taken.'
Don't you find that strange,if that were my friends daughter, no way would I still be sitting in the tapas bar,i

would have rushed with them to see what had happened.
My understanding is that Diane Webster's daughter told her to wait at the table in case MM went by.
So she said,sorry,dont buy it.

I agree, don't see it happening that way either. As i said they're all dodgy IMO, and wouldn't trust any of what they have said. None of the players in the case, the McC's & their tapas friends/acquaintances or whatever they were to the McC's can be trusted. No wonder they didn't want a do over/reconstruction, probably worried they would put themselves right in it by doing so.

by Carrry On Doctor 01.01.15 10:50

Bring them all back to Portugal for a proper reconstruction !

They all want to help find Madeleine right ?

P.S Happy new year to all !

by Joss 01.01.15 11:26

Carrry On Doctor wrote:Bring them all back to Portugal for a proper reconstruction !

They all want to help find Madeleine right ?

P.S Happy new year to all !

Yeah that would be good, they have had plenty of time to reconsider their stories in 7+ years, and should be able to get it straight by now.
I think their actions have shown how much a precious child means to any of them, and i think the McC's have shown what's important to them, its all so obvious right from the get go.

Yes HAPPY 2015 hope it will be a good one.

by Realist 01.01.15 15:27

Joss wrote:
. You state as if you know the facts and reasons of what the tapas friends did,

I obviously don't have first hand knowledge regarding the reasons why the McCann's friends reacted in the manner they did, but its a violent presumption that they sure as hell weren't prepared to be participants in covering up a murder.manslaughter for a couple most of them hardly knew. By the same hypothesis, its a violent presumption that the McCanns wouldn't have been likely to divulge details of a murder/manslaughter to what basically amounted to a bunch of acquiantances, most of whom they barely knew.

One also has to take into account these are straight people who have never had any experience with criminal matters, not a closely knit group of people who have grown up and gone through the system together. How much serious pressure do you suppose the likes of Jane Tanner would be able to sustain. I wouldn't give her more than 45 mins. in police custody before being ready to pot her own grandmother.

by Realist 01.01.15 15:40

tiny wrote:
Don't you find that strange,if that were my friends daughter, no way would I still be sitting in the tapas bar,i would have rushed with them to see what had happened.

Maybe she is a more calm and level headed person than the others, Tiny, or maybe she was more suspicious of the McCann's behaviour and didn't want to be part of whatever was transpiring. Maybe there is an innocent explanation as to why she didn't wish to become involved.

From what I have gathered from the PJ files etc. Diane Webster appears to have had the least of all the Tapas group to say on this matter.

by Joss 01.01.15 16:34

Realist wrote:
Joss wrote:
. You state as if you know the facts and reasons of what the tapas friends did,

I obviously don't have first hand knowledge regarding the reasons why the McCann's friends reacted in the manner they did, but its a violent presumption that they sure as hell weren't prepared to be participants in covering up a murder.manslaughter for a couple most of them hardly knew. By the same hypothesis, its a violent presumption that the McCanns wouldn't have been likely to divulge details of a murder/manslaughter to what basically amounted to a bunch of acquiantances, most of whom they barely knew.

One also has to take into account these are straight people who have never had any experience with criminal matters, not a closely knit group of people who have grown up and gone through the system together. How much serious pressure do you suppose the likes of Jane Tanner would be able to sustain. I wouldn't give her more than 45 mins. in police custody before being ready to pot her own grandmother.

What do you mean "its a violent presumption"? There is no violence in what the weavers of tall tales have spun, only Lies.
What about "Fear" of consequences instead? Probably they were all spooked by what had happened to Maddie, and there was talk about some of the tapas friends/acquaintances also becoming Arguidos. I bet they were scared as to how they would be implicated in the crime. Who says they are "straight people" that have never had dealings with criminal matters? Sometimes Doctors are called to give evidence in court, so i wouldn't necessarily dismiss them as not having any dealings in legal matters, but of course i have no clue about that when it comes to the individuals in this case. But i do believe they all know after the fact what happened, even if not directly by the McC's, but through their spokesperson/s, perhaps DP & FP? And as to who aided & abetted, that is anyone's guess.
I think JT speaks for herself in how she has been a player in this case.
And i think if the ongoing investigation into this case was at all serious in finding out what happened to Maddie, they need to haul the McC's & tapas people back in for some real questioning and a reconstruction of events, but don't think that will ever happen, so the investigation IMO is not at all a serious one, and that really sucks for any justice in the case, it is a farce IMO, as we have seen the grasping at straws in all the "suspects" that have been named in the media, who weren't really suspects at all, but had their good name dragged through the mud.

by Khaleesi 01.01.15 17:11

Joss wrote:
And i think if the ongoing investigation into this case was at all serious in finding out what happened to Maddie, they need to haul the McC's & tapas people back in for some real questioning and a reconstruction of events

Amaral hauled the McCanns for some real questioning without the evidence strong enough in his hand. And how did it end? The investigation got shelved. Do you want the SY to repeat the portuguese team mistakes? What for?

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