New DCI

comperedna wrote:I will never forget Coldwater who also had a 'very reliable source.'  Anyone else remember him?  NOT that I'm mking a comparison in this case.

Yes Coldwater is what immediately sprung to mind with regard to someone who was ITK via unnamed mysterious sources.  Coldwater was extremely believable though and I remember closely following his/her posts.

rustyjames wrote:

comperedna wrote:I will never forget Coldwater who also had a 'very reliable source.'  Anyone else remember him?  NOT that I'm mking a comparison in this case.

Yes Coldwater is what immediately sprung to mind with regard to someone who was ITK via unnamed mysterious sources.  Coldwater was extremely believable though and I remember closely following his/her posts.

Coldwater - like the contents of the Arade Dam?

comperedna wrote:I will never forget Coldwater who also had a 'very reliable source.'  Anyone else remember him?  NOT that I'm mking a comparison in this case.

At least Coldwater was not trying to say the parents are innocent, on the contrary.

Well, my very reliable source who lives in Luz and has done for many years, tells me that his family and their friends all would have believed that the McCanns and their friends had something to hide were it not for the fact that the Hubbards were so friendly with the McCanns and so supportive of them. Having the full backing of the then local priest Father Hubbard as well as Hubbard's family and (all/some?) of the congregation. And, therefore, support from at least some sections of the local community convinced him that the McCanns and their friends could not possibly be guilty.

I have to say, having watched this interview, the fact that the McCanns have the support of this slippery, utterly insincere and obviously lying priest would have quite the reverse effect upon me. Even if I had fully believed the McCann version of events prior to this interview, watching this alone would have convinced me that the McCanns are guilty and the priest knows full well what happened. And is lying.

Slow down the footage and watch his face and gestures. His body language and facial gestures are fascinating. Dripping with unctuous deception. Every inch the dodgy priest, imo.

Watch how he closes his eyes at the 0.04 mark. He is, imo, dissociating himself from the lying words that are coming out of his mouth.

Watch at the 0.37 to 0.39 point. There is some kind of shared or 'in' joke between the interviewer and Hubbard. The interviewer is smirking. Then Hubbard makes this very strange hand gesture, sweeping his arm across and raising his thumb and first finger up to form a V while at the same time pointing two digits forwards. A very awkward hand position and one which appears to be symbolic. Meanwhile, the interviewer is smirking. As though 'in on it'. 

It's the sort of thing you might do with your hands if you were trying to make shadow puppets but most peculiar in the context of this interview. Looks to me like Hubbard is 'in' on the whole thing. And plays GM's Joker type games complete with riddles, symbolism and the whole bag of tricks. 

He laughs really inappropriately at the 2.04 point. And smirks again at the 2.27 mark. 

Notice also how he gives the game away that he knows the McCanns now only have two children. He says 'two children' at the 1.17 mark then quickly corrects this to 'three'.

What a lying scumbag, imo. I've seldom seen such an obviously deceptive interview, apart from those with any members of TM, of course!

From what he says about Kate visiting Luz at the end as it was the last place she saw Madeleine, I think it is possible that Madeleine's dead body was inside that church at one point. There is quite a funereal air to the manner in which he talks about Kate's visits.

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Of course - he conducted the funeral!

"There is quite a funereal air to the manner in which he talks about Kate's visits."
-------------------------------------------------

Only because he was thinking, indeed, like her own mother was thinking, "why AREN'T Kate's 'visits' bigger"?

I have always said their "turn to God" was meant as a defensive cover. You see that often: Clinton, Jessie Jackson and all those conversions in jail.

Probably father Pacheco did not want to play their game. I never believed they confessed to him, they will not confess to anyone, but they needed a man of the cloth to be their cover.

So distasteful

Oh J.Rob, you make me laugh - Rev Fr Hubbard "a lying scumbag"!!

I'm going to second that opinion.

That video's appalling - I'd missed that "ah well, fck it, we'll magic it away" hand gesture -

- and his horrible costume! Shiny cassock and plasticky collar...

...and what's with the red biro??

He's the dodgiest straight cat in all of this.

I have even wondered if he is a real, actual, genuine vicar -

- or something cobbled up from (Operation) Mincemeat.


My thoughts only.

lj wrote:I have always said their "turn to God" was meant as a defensive cover. You see that often: Clinton, Jessie Jackson and all those conversions in jail.

Probably father Pacheco did not want to play their game. I never believed they confessed to him, they will not confess to anyone, but they needed a man of the cloth to be their cover.

So distasteful

Indeed. I wonder when the McCanns met the Hubbards? I wonder what their shared interests are? I don't count religion as I think this is just a phony cover for them all.

Sounds nothing like any vicar I`ve ever met. Vicars are usually articulate and can make biblical and theological references off the cuff. I didn`t spot any in the interview. Mind you, it was heavily edited.

missbeetle wrote:Oh J.Rob, you make me laugh - Rev Fr Hubbard "a lying scumbag"!!

I'm going to second that opinion.

That video's appalling - I'd missed that "ah well, fck it, we'll magic it away" hand gesture -

- and his horrible costume! Shiny cassock and plasticky collar...

...and what's with the red biro??

He's the dodgiest straight cat in all of this.

I have even wondered if he is a real, actual, genuine vicar -

- or something cobbled up from (Operation) Mincemeat.


My thoughts only.

Ha! Yes, a lying scumbag hiding behind a cassock.......the Mcs are lying scumbags hiding behind religion AND medicine AND Freemasonry, imo.

This whole case abounds with cults. Extraordinary.

When did the Hubbards arrive in Luz - was it just a few days after Madeleine's 'abduction'? I had always assumed that their role was to get the local community 'on board' the TM juggernaut. To get the local community supporting TM.

 But I now suspect there was another role too. Connected with a funeral. The timing of their arrival is very interesting. 

A bit like the timing of Murat's arrival.

All these 'players' - feels like a work of Chaucer or Shakespeare.

But, of course, an innocent child was the victim in all this. 

Really, this case plumbs the depths of human depravity, imo. So many people milking the cash cow.

Just to go back what i stated earlier..there is too many inconsistencies in the tapas statements for there to be in the clear. The only way that could be the case was if there was concrete evidence that an abduction took place..which there isn't. Wftt i'm sure your source is real..but unless they could tell you what has haooened to make them ignore every inconsistency eminating from tm..and the obvious fact that they have backtracked their stories tjo fit new findings..i would suggest you are being mislead. But only my opinion based on my sources.

*happened

mad world wrote:Just to go back what i stated earlier..there is too many inconsistencies in the tapas statements for there to be in the clear. The only way that could be the case was if there was concrete evidence that an abduction took place..which there isn't. Wftt i'm sure your source is real..but unless they could tell you what has haooened to make them ignore every inconsistency eminating from tm..and the obvious fact that they have backtracked their stories tjo fit new findings..i would suggest you are being mislead. But only my opinion based on my sources.

The 'source' is probably TM, imo. This is what TM want us to believe. Just like they wanted us to believe that a mystery person 'stole' Madeleine from her bed on Thursday evening.

All the evidence points away from that. All the evidence points towards TM being involved.

The police know that. Everyone knows that.

TM know what happened. They are playing their last (desperate) card, imo.

No-one believes them. Certainly not the police. 

IMO.

I'm not saying it is tm as i have no evidence..but anyone who thinks the police are stupid are barking up the wrong tree. They will know through experience what is going on. Unfortunately they are neutered by higher forces. Unless someone in the tapas 9 cracks i can never see justice for madeleine.

mad world wrote:I'm not saying it is tm as i have no evidence..but anyone who thinks the police are stupid are barking up the wrong tree. They will know through experience what is going on. Unfortunately they are neutered by higher forces. Unless someone in the tapas 9 cracks i can never see justice for madeleine.

I agree the police are neutered by higher forces. But it's a £10 Mill operation - under the spotlight -they've finally called RM back in for questioning having gone round & round houses looking at burglars etc etc .
We have experienced AR and his antics, playing his publicity games and now in hopefully the final stages we have NW who is tight-lipped and behaving as we would hope and expect a SY DCI to behave.

We have seen SY's initial review of abduction change into supposedly a murder investigation with SY admitting after 7 long years that death may have occurred in the apartment. We have seen indications that MCCANNS will lose damages case - and that Amaral's book followed the PJ investigation. SY can surely not afford to find anything but the truth, and they will follow a strategy which may mean that re-questioning of the TAPAS 9 may well be best done last... .

We can hope helenmeg..i sincerely hope you are right. But we all on here are aware what happened in plebgate who wins if the police ultimately have to play politics against the political classes...there is only one winner and i don't see the police having the chance in that fight. We see zlebs being done on historic charges...not the political class. And as politics is up to its neck in the mm case..i think justice will never be served.
This poster does not represent the opinions of this site...that should cover any legalities.

mad world wrote:We can hope helenmeg..i sincerely hope you are right. But we all on here are aware what happened in plebgate who wins if the police ultimately have to play politics against the political classes...there is only one winner and i don't see the police having the chance in that fight. We see zlebs being done on historic charges...not the political class. And as politics is up to its neck in the mm case..i think justice will never be served.
This poster does not represent the opinions of this site...that should  cover  any legalities.

mad world

There does appear to be a political game being played and has been since the 3rd of May 07.

It is said that politics is concentrated economics and the economics of the PdL area
appears to be a lot of British investment and Irish investment in property and possibly businesses in general
such as Mark Warner et al.

In general within the whole of Portugal ( like Spain and maybe Greece ) very big investments in terms of Capital
has been invested over the years by foreigners.

Both are ex Imperialist nations.

The top dog currently vis investment and influence within Portugal without a doubt is the UK.

True:  that European co-operation  on legal agreements have to be honoured and that is what is going on at the moment.

It works both ways.

But what needs to be recognised is precisely the relationship between the UK and Portugal and who has the final say in
this particular investigation.

Woodforthetrees has his or her opinions and I'm happy with that and in my view SY are not countenancing that any member of the Tapas 9
are involved in Madeleines disappearance.

The thing is (and this has to be made clear to any opinion as to how this SY investigation is going) is that the alleged crime was committed in Portugal. Because the crime was carried out in Portugal it is up to the Portuguese legal authorities to decide what can be added to the investigation files and what cannot. This is what would ordinarily go forward to a potential prosecution.

Therefore; SY, woodforthetrees and his no doubt sincere friend and us  will have no bearing at all on what the Portuguese legal authorities decide to accept in terms of addding credible  ' new' and potentially provable evidence to the case files.

There doesn't appear to be be any new evidence at all that can be added for the simple reason that there isn't any new evidence to be added despite SY's attempts at finding it ( or manufacturing it by the search for suspects? and so on ).The PJ have found nothing either
otherwise they too would be crowing about it.

Sadly I suspect it is an investigation for show and nothing else. Cameron thought it was a populist thing to do. Theresa May was wary and Bernard Hogan How(?)e  has let the cat out of the bag. The MSM trades in emotion rather than fact ( more populism ) and round and round we go in circles. Brown and Blair ditto- good old fashioned perceived populism.

I wish Nichola Wall good luck and if she cracks the case all credit to her but I do suspect that Madeleine was never meant to be found.

If you wish to find out where Madeleine is you are not going to trip over her accidentally. Only  a person or persons can guide you there.

If you don't find these people you are doomed to fail in your search.

If you don't look you won't find. Simple as that for me which is why this file will be archived on a higher shelf than it was last time - pending further credible evidence.


Sorry to be so pessemistic but that's how I view it.

All opinion though.

And i couldn't agree more xtc..you make the point better than i could..portugal relies on our investment hence what we say goes...ie the removal of amaral. You're not pesimistic.just realistic.

mad world wrote:And i couldn't agree more xtc..you make the point better than i could..portugal relies on our investment hence what we say goes...ie the removal of amaral. You're not pesimistic.just realistic.

I can understand pessimism / realism on this case - we are 8 years on....
There was clearly political interference and IMO there are establishment figures connected to this case. There is huge UK business in the Algarve related to real estate / golf / tourism. I believe it is for this reason
that the investigation has been hampered, and it is focussed on who was there that week and their connections. 
Labour were involved in 2007. Initially GM was 'fxxxcked' - he said it himself. Then remember how their faces and attitude changed only a matter of weeks later - suddenly they knew they were protected. But only as an indirect consequence of the more important guests being protected. Once that protection has gone then they are lambs to the slaughter. DC was persuaded to have a review - he did so - finding a can of worms. All those establishment figures / political connections suddenly start worrying and fighting to save themselves. Wealth business men in the Algarve etc . What can DC do? He tries to close the case with the least impact - find a burglar or something... then realises after a few attempts it cannot work. That was AR's role, surely - see if we can make it  go away.  But they cant. The cannot make it go away so they HAVE to now close it with at least some truth being revealed and the lambs have to be slaughtered. It took them too long to realise that. l think DC would dearly have wanted a bit of whitewash - but it was not possible though they tried their hardest. DC is not stupid - this case will be closed within 6 months and at least some of the truth will be revealed - I'll eat my hat if thats not the case. Its just logical.

HelenMeg wrote:

mad world wrote:And i couldn't agree more xtc..you make the point better than i could..portugal relies on our investment hence what we say goes...ie the removal of amaral. You're not pesimistic.just realistic.

I can understand pessimism / realism on this case - we are 8 years on....
There was clearly political interference and IMO there are establishment figures connected to this case. There is huge UK business in the Algarve related to real estate / golf / tourism. I believe it is for this reason
that the investigation has been hampered, and it is focussed on who was there that week and their connections. 
Labour were involved in 2007. Initially GM was 'fxxxcked' - he said it himself. Then remember how their faces and attitude changed only a matter of weeks later - suddenly they knew they were protected. But only as an indirect consequence of the more important guests being protected. Once that protection has gone then they are lambs to the slaughter. DC was persuaded to have a review - he did so - finding a can of worms. All those establishment figures / political connections suddenly start worrying and fighting to save themselves. Wealth business men in the Algarve etc . What can DC do? He tries to close the case with the least impact - find a burglar or something... then realises after a few attempts it cannot work. That was AR's role, surely - see if we can make it  go away.  But they cant. The cannot make it go away so they HAVE to now close it with at least some truth being revealed and the lambs have to be slaughtered. It took them too long to realise that. l think DC would dearly have wanted a bit of whitewash - but it was not possible though they tried their hardest. DC is not stupid - this case will be closed within 6 months and at least some of the truth will be revealed - I'll eat my hat if thats not the case. Its just logical.

The one thing that gives me some hope is there seems to be more and more media coverage about exposure of paedophiles and paedophile rings.

Jim Gamble and his dodgy antics at Operation Ore obviously tie in with all this. As does Blair slapping a D-notice on it all.

I would imagine SY have a pretty clear idea about what happened and who is responsible. British intelligence were there very early on. Maybe even there prior to 3rd May. The guest list that week at OC was certainly interesting. 

There are many layers to all this that is for sure.

j.rob wrote:

HelenMeg wrote:

mad world wrote:And i couldn't agree more xtc..you make the point better than i could..portugal relies on our investment hence what we say goes...ie the removal of amaral. You're not pesimistic.just realistic.

I can understand pessimism / realism on this case - we are 8 years on....
There was clearly political interference and IMO there are establishment figures connected to this case. There is huge UK business in the Algarve related to real estate / golf / tourism. I believe it is for this reason
that the investigation has been hampered, and it is focussed on who was there that week and their connections. 
Labour were involved in 2007. Initially GM was 'fxxxcked' - he said it himself. Then remember how their faces and attitude changed only a matter of weeks later - suddenly they knew they were protected. But only as an indirect consequence of the more important guests being protected. Once that protection has gone then they are lambs to the slaughter. DC was persuaded to have a review - he did so - finding a can of worms. All those establishment figures / political connections suddenly start worrying and fighting to save themselves. Wealth business men in the Algarve etc . What can DC do? He tries to close the case with the least impact - find a burglar or something... then realises after a few attempts it cannot work. That was AR's role, surely - see if we can make it  go away.  But they cant. The cannot make it go away so they HAVE to now close it with at least some truth being revealed and the lambs have to be slaughtered. It took them too long to realise that. l think DC would dearly have wanted a bit of whitewash - but it was not possible though they tried their hardest. DC is not stupid - this case will be closed within 6 months and at least some of the truth will be revealed - I'll eat my hat if thats not the case. Its just logical.

The one thing that gives me some hope is there seems to be more and more media coverage about exposure of paedophiles and paedophile rings.

Jim Gamble and his dodgy antics at Operation Ore obviously tie in with all this. As does Blair slapping a D-notice on it all.

I would imagine SY have a pretty clear idea about what happened and who is responsible. British intelligence were there very early on. Maybe even there prior to 3rd May. The guest list that week at OC was certainly interesting. 

There are many layers to all this that is for sure.

All good points made.

The layers of assistance in this case from the off are too numerous to collate.

Ambassadors ( not Consuls) Prime Ministers of both nations becoming embroiled in PR - fast arriving and disappearing clergy. The middle class sympathising ( we've all been there - they are just like us ) media etc etc.

The list of the pompous and the pious is overwhelming and they are partly responsible for Madeleine not being found by now.


These players were either brought in or self invited for a reason. The reason is that if enough so called high up figures can be dragooned into your PR camp then publicly you are exonorated from guilt of any sort.

This as Blacksmith rightly rails against is the reason why no progress has been made in the search for Madeleine. As I've said before and will say again the search ended when Mr Amaral was humiliated by his cowardly superiors. Yes Rebelo carried on but maybe ( just maybe ) he had a remit similar to Operation Grange. I may be wrong but if what I think is true, it is truly scurrillous.


Reasons for the ' cover up '  swing ( sorry for the pun ) between Textusa's plausible swinging of the higher ups theory and their future exposure to the paedophile theories and so on. Yet I have always thought that as usual the answer to the mystery will be mundane and if and when we find the truth out we will all go: Aaah it was that simple!

What we have to remember throughout the last nearly eight years is that the accusers of Mr Amaral ( making money via a young girls demise )
is an accusation we could make about the media and all the agencies who have been involved from the start.

The BBC and ITV commission programmes these days and the Producers of these Doco - Dramas ( and that is all they are) make a lot of cash from making progarmmes full of speculation. Crimewatch may be one I'm not sure and My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding is another. All are produced I'm sure to inform and entertain.

The main thing is though is to sell it and DVD it. That's where the money is. Madeleine's missingness is no different than any other form of TV/Media product. That is the bottom line as the Yanks say.

That's the media and is what I would expect them to do. Fake passing concern is their forte. In fact if two children went missing in mysterious circumstances similar to Madeleine you would not see the search for Madeleine for dust anymore unless something darmatic happened. No apologies - no nothing. Next news business.

The police on the other hand are ( or should be ) a different matter. It is not their job to PR anything - just to gather evidence and present it to the CPS. As simple as that.

Yet we have had pronouncements galore on the investigation- the search for suspects ( not Madeleine ) and BHH failing to stick to the SY PR line. No wonder there is confusion.

It is not and never should be the job of the police to state what the feelings of those involved is at any current time. It is to gather evidence
in order to secure a conviction of the people or person who committed the said crime.

Over the years they too have fell for the PR game , pushed by the media without doubt to comment on the status of any ongoing investigation. Sometimes the media can be useful but don't let the tail  wag the dog.

I really could go on but for brevity's sake it is fairly starightforward for SY vis adding credible evidence to the files of the PJ.

If SY have evidence give it to the Portuguese - it is afterall their investigation. If you haven't and all you can say via the media or even Crimewatch is we are working on it leave it be. Or we will all be here until were 90.

DI Redwood has retired and I can't blame him.

Mr Amaral could win his damages case.

Gentleman Jim Gamble is looking for further funding.

Keir Simmons et al are still writing tripe.

What a game this has become.

As Queen said though: The show must go on.

Sad in all honesty.

The only thing that gives me some hope about this new DCI is the silence...no big digs or talk of arrests or anything... So i'm patiently waiting...as usual...

Ayniia wrote:The only thing that gives me some hope about this new DCI is the silence...no big digs or talk of arrests or anything... So i'm patiently waiting...as usual...

The complete radio silence from the new DCI can be interpreted in a couple of ways:  

It suggests that she is a lot more professional than the hapless Deadwood whose team leaked like a sieve from day 1.  Not a peep has come out since she took over.  So that's a good point. 

However, if her remit is to "close this down and direct attention away from T9", then silence is entirely appropriate.  She HAS to wait until the 'libel' trial is over before making any statements at all.  If she declares 'job done - it was an intruder' and then the verdict goes against the McCanns, it would make her look like a complete fool.   No way she will allow that to happen.   No, she has to wait for the verdict. 

If the verdict goes to the McCanns (and ANY money awarded to the McCanns will be portrayed as a huge WIN for them - regardless of the amount) , then I think the case will be closed down very quickly afterwards.  SY know that there is no abductor to be found, the new DCI is unlikely to indulge the ludicrous 'burglars' theory. Instead I predict she is likely to say that "she has fully reviewed the case and concluded that SY did the best they could, but that the trail was just too cold".   

The lasting public impression will then be a McCann win in court followed by SY bowing out of the hunt. 

Or she may surprise us all, and actually investigate the T9.  Sadly, after 3 years, there is simply no evidence to support that theory - just a lot of detailed (and fascinating) circumstantial analysis from TextUSA which in time will prove to be spectacularly prescient or a monument to relentless optimism.

BB:
"Instead, I predict, she is likely to say that "she has fully reviewed the case and concluded that SY did the best they could, but that the trail was just too cold".
--------------------------------------------------

Well THAT, 'conclusion', wouldn't 'clear/exonerate/eliminate' the McCann's" (or their 'friends') in any WAY, SHAPE or FORM, from 'possible involvement' (Leics Police) in Madeleine's 'disappearance', would it?

eta: And WHY would DCI Wall's 'conclusion' be any more 'acceptable' than GA's/PJ's 'conclusions'?

BOTH only 'theories', surely?

WHY would I, 'believe' DCI Wall's 'possible' conclusion, over the PJ's 'conclusion'?

She wasn't 'there' was she?

The PJ/GNR WERE!

AND What about the PJ investigation or is that to be disregarded completely? No good SY finding the trail has gone cold - and PJ finding the truth...

I know its seems a bit far out   BUT COULD IT BE  A CASE THAT pj WILL KEEP THEIR OWN EVIDENCE TO THEM SELVES   ,AND  when the others have said no more can be done ,then thay will continue  with the evidence they have all ready  which sounds rather like its some of the forensics that can still be used ? They said some months ago ,THEY HAVE REOPENED THE CASE ,IF MY MEMORY SEVES ME WELL . They have made it plain I feel that its not a burgeler . just in my head for some time now .joyce1938

HelenMeg wrote:AND What about the PJ investigation or is that to be disregarded completely? No good SY finding the trail has gone cold - and PJ finding the truth...

And,

"BASED on 'EXSISTING EVIDENCE' this points to a 'crime' being carried out BY 'a stranger' (OWTTE)  DCI Andy Redwood, ex lead investigator of Operation Grange.

What EXSISTING 'EVIDENCE', i ask.

If, IF, OG had 'exsisting evidence' they would have 'produced' it, YEARS ago.

If ONLY to 'completely and utterly' PROVE the McCann's and the 'friends' or 'persons' they 'know', WERE absolutely NOT 'involved' (impossible) in a 3 years old child's 'disappearance'

(just 'saying so' DOES NOT 'COUNT'!)

LETS 'SEE' the 'EXSISTING EVIDENCE' that EXONERATES/ELIMINATES the McCann's, their 'friends', or 'persons' they KNOW, from ANY 'possible INVOLVEMENT'.

eta: (sorry) DCI Wall would ALSO now 'have' (access to) ALL of this exsisting 'EVIDENCE', established/collected by OG, that a 'stranger carried out this crime', wouldn't she?

HelenMeg wrote:AND What about the PJ investigation or is that to be disregarded completely? No good SY finding the trail has gone cold - and PJ finding the truth...

It's a fair point.  Sadly my view is that there is no PJ investigation.  According to Amaral the reopening of the case by the PJ was a procedural move that was required before they could assist SY with all the ILRs.   Legally the PJ had to produce some 'new evidence' to justify the reopening, and that was 'tractorman' who was almost immediately ruled out. 

As such, I don't think they are actively pursuing the case.  It would be impossible even if they wanted to. They believe that the McCanns did it, and they and the supporting cast are in the UK, safely outside of their jurisdiction for interviews or further investigation.  So unless SY start to go after the T9, then there are only two possible outcomes: 

A) The new DCI shuts the case down - "Maddie is probably dead, and one of those suspects probably did it, but the trail is too cold".  
B) The new DCI goes after the T9 and anyone else they believe is involved

If she wants to take option A, then she has to wait for the libel verdict.  If McCanns win, she can move fast. If they lose, she will wait a while for the public to forget.  As ever we should anticipate SY action or planted stories around verdict day to help that forgetting process.

Well I dont believe that the new DCI will be deciding which option (A or B) to take... she will do as she is told. Someone a lot higher up the pecking order of the establishment
will decide, if anyone has to make that decision. Probably DC