"Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Woofer wrote:@ stillsloppingout - I don`t know whether to believe your post about swingers or not - are you having a joke ?

However I do remember, a few years back, reading that Leicester NHS was rife with swingers.  I have looked for the piece many times but can`t find it.  Anyone else remember it ?  Mind you, it could be the case in many towns.  Swinging can be passed off as golf and badminton clubs or any sport where something is swung   .

There is also a golf club, can`t remember where (abroad) that is solely for golf and swinging.

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:

Woofer wrote:
Yes they did a pre-emptive story to make out Maddie said it on the Thursday morning (after the Wednesday night), but it was in fact the Tuesday night that Mrs. Fenn heard Maddie crying for 1 3/4 hrs.

Its quite possible there was a massive falling out on the night of the 1st (the night of the full moon in Scorpio - very dodgy time for jealousy, vengeance and heightened emotions - but you`ll no doubt discard this info !).

LOL, you know me too well Woofer ;-)

I'm quite fond of this 'marital breakdown' theory, because in my opinion it makes for an explosive atmosphere, just the kind of crisis in which Maddy could have sadly paid the ultimate price.  And it is quite possible that a large portion of the Tapas group felt responsible.

Of course, the McCanns would have done everything they could to cover the breakdown up - because it would ring all kinds of alarm bells.  Not just with the police, but also with the public.  They had to look like the perfect middle-class (yeah, I know) couple to pull it off.

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:

Woofer wrote:
Yes they did a pre-emptive story to make out Maddie said it on the Thursday morning (after the Wednesday night), but it was in fact the Tuesday night that Mrs. Fenn heard Maddie crying for 1 3/4 hrs.

Its quite possible there was a massive falling out on the night of the 1st (the night of the full moon in Scorpio - very dodgy time for jealousy, vengeance and heightened emotions - but you`ll no doubt discard this info !).

LOL, you know me too well Woofer ;-)

I'm quite fond of this 'marital breakdown' theory, because in my opinion it makes for an explosive atmosphere, just the kind of crisis in which Maddy could have sadly paid the ultimate price.  And it is quite possible that a large portion of the Tapas group felt responsible.

Of course, the McCanns would have done everything they could to cover the breakdown up - because it would ring all kinds of alarm bells.  Not just with the police, but also with the public.  They had to look like the perfect middle-class (yeah, I know) couple to pull it off.

Andrew77R wrote:

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:

Woofer wrote:
Yes they did a pre-emptive story to make out Maddie said it on the Thursday morning (after the Wednesday night), but it was in fact the Tuesday night that Mrs. Fenn heard Maddie crying for 1 3/4 hrs.

Its quite possible there was a massive falling out on the night of the 1st (the night of the full moon in Scorpio - very dodgy time for jealousy, vengeance and heightened emotions - but you`ll no doubt discard this info !).

LOL, you know me too well Woofer ;-)

I'm quite fond of this 'marital breakdown' theory, because in my opinion it makes for an explosive atmosphere, just the kind of crisis in which Maddy could have sadly paid the ultimate price.  And it is quite possible that a large portion of the Tapas group felt responsible.

Of course, the McCanns would have done everything they could to cover the breakdown up - because it would ring all kinds of alarm bells.  Not just with the police, but also with the public.  They had to look like the perfect middle-class (yeah, I know) couple to pull it off.

Ok....

So Gerry has a few too many and is secretly trying his luck with the busty fitness instructor. 

Kate gets annoyed and is filled with anger and rage. Not to mention jealousy of the busty fitness instructors busty bits.

She storms back.

She lashes out against MBM in a moment of madness.

MBM dies.

My question would be.. Why would the rest of the tapas group risk everything with the 'pact' and stay silent for all this time for the sake of above scenario?????

Cristobell wrote:

Newintown wrote:

Mirage wrote:

Doug D wrote:Thanks Mirage.

I agree the move from the second OC apartment to the villa was on 2/7, but there seemed to be a suggestion of another move from a villa to another villa at some stage, but this may just be misinformation.

That's ok Doug. My understanding is that the Mcs were initially allocated another larger apartment by MW. Then, as more family arrived, they were offered a villa, gratis. But the owner then decided he wanted them out and they moved on 2nd July to the final villa which they had to pay for themselves. This is the villa where the Scenic boot was left open day after day, and where Jon Corner filmed, and from where they left abruptly in Sept when declared arguidos

It is mind-boggling re-visiting these blogs. On one day he writes of his lost daughter the following:
The Portuguese police have assured us on numerous occasions that they are looking for Madeleine and not a corpse.
He finishes the day's blog with:
I spent a couple of hours this afternoon working on forthcoming events but did manage to squeeze in a much-needed haircut!

But this one on 11th Aug '07 takes the bloody biscuit :

"UNFORTUNATELY, WE HAVE TO ADD PATIENCE TO OUR OTHER CHARACTERISTICS "

Hello!   Oscar Pistorius, eat your heart out!

I wonder what Gerry thinks their other characteristics are?

Suave
Persuasive
Urbane
Charming
Fragrant
Elegant
Eloquent
Understanding
Empathetic
Helpful
Obliging
Co-operative
Self-effacing
Attractive
Educated
Articulate
Self-sacrificing
Grateful
Gracious
Humble
Thankful
Wise
Child-centred (well, where every other missing child on the planet but his own is concerned)

Gerry's Memo to self: After the morning jog, must work on patience. It's the only weakness in Kate and I's characters.

Gawd's truth. Let me lie down.

They show the characteristics of two parents who have never had to go through the "abduction" of a child; they therefore have to make up all the emotions, feelings etc as they go along and get it very wrong.

Brilliant!

I have to question Empathetic though, if they had empathy they would know how normal parents would react to the loss of their child.  They were acting out what they thought parents in that situation would do, and they got it badly wrong.

Andrew77R wrote:
Ok....

So Gerry has a few too many and is secretly trying his luck with the busty fitness instructor. 

Kate gets annoyed and is filled with anger and rage. Not to mention jealousy of the busty fitness instructors busty bits.

She storms back.

She lashes out against MBM in a moment of madness.

MBM dies.

My question would be.. Why would the rest of the tapas group risk everything with the 'pact' and stay silent for all this time for the sake of above scenario?????

Andrew77R wrote:

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:

Woofer wrote:
Yes they did a pre-emptive story to make out Maddie said it on the Thursday morning (after the Wednesday night), but it was in fact the Tuesday night that Mrs. Fenn heard Maddie crying for 1 3/4 hrs.

Its quite possible there was a massive falling out on the night of the 1st (the night of the full moon in Scorpio - very dodgy time for jealousy, vengeance and heightened emotions - but you`ll no doubt discard this info !).

LOL, you know me too well Woofer ;-)

I'm quite fond of this 'marital breakdown' theory, because in my opinion it makes for an explosive atmosphere, just the kind of crisis in which Maddy could have sadly paid the ultimate price.  And it is quite possible that a large portion of the Tapas group felt responsible.

Of course, the McCanns would have done everything they could to cover the breakdown up - because it would ring all kinds of alarm bells.  Not just with the police, but also with the public.  They had to look like the perfect middle-class (yeah, I know) couple to pull it off.

Ok....

So Gerry has a few too many and is secretly trying his luck with the busty fitness instructor. 

Kate gets annoyed and is filled with anger and rage. Not to mention jealousy of the busty fitness instructors busty bits.

She storms back.

She lashes out against MBM in a moment of madness.

MBM dies.

My question would be.. Why would the rest of the tapas group risk everything with the 'pact' and stay silent for all this time for the sake of above scenario?????

sar wrote:find the development of this strand interesting.  Not of the camp "it was the swingers wot dunnit!" but something about SSO's info rings true.  In a past life I was involved in "communications for the creative industries" shall we say and was gobsmacked to hear at a boozy industry event a VERY famous footballers adultery being openly discussed at the bar by a bunch of journo's who had pics but just couldn't move on them because of the legal implications.   There is a strange code of conduct in the press, [stop tittering at the back! no really] a sort of honour amongst thieves. They will simply not publish unless they have cast iron proof something happened and it could be proven to have happened from a number of verifiable sources, otherwise it just doesn't run, no matter how astonishing.   No editor wants to be the one who gets their publication sued, potentially for millions and bring the whole gravy train crashing to a halt.  Remember, its free drinks, drugs, girls, boys, junkets etc for the rest of your life if you play your cards right, why ruin it with printing something that can't be made to stand up??  Even if true.  What now makes me believe the swinging theory just might be true is if it is an open secret but it has been agreed for lots of reasons, never to see the light of day.  Strangely the press would close ranks or cover up swinging by a famous politician / "face" but would be less keen to keep silent if the rumours were about something much worse.   The press do, inspite of common belief have some backbone / decency.

sar wrote:find the development of this strand interesting.  Not of the camp "it was the swingers wot dunnit!" but something about SSO's info rings true.  In a past life I was involved in "communications for the creative industries" shall we say and was gobsmacked to hear at a boozy industry event a VERY famous footballers adultery being openly discussed at the bar by a bunch of journo's who had pics but just couldn't move on them because of the legal implications.   There is a strange code of conduct in the press, [stop tittering at the back! no really] a sort of honour amongst thieves. They will simply not publish unless they have cast iron proof something happened and it could be proven to have happened from a number of verifiable sources, otherwise it just doesn't run, no matter how astonishing.   No editor wants to be the one who gets their publication sued, potentially for millions and bring the whole gravy train crashing to a halt.  Remember, its free drinks, drugs, girls, boys, junkets etc for the rest of your life if you play your cards right, why ruin it with printing something that can't be made to stand up??  Even if true.  What now makes me believe the swinging theory just might be true is if it is an open secret but it has been agreed for lots of reasons, never to see the light of day.  Strangely the press would close ranks or cover up swinging by a famous politician / "face" but would be less keen to keep silent if the rumours were about something much worse.   The press do, inspite of common belief have some backbone / decency.

BlackCatBoogie wrote:

aiyoyo wrote:So........people still believe it is a white wash eh....despite the imminent dig ?

I firmly believe that there is a very big and vile background to this which TPTB will try to whitewash to the bitter end. They have absolutely no choice.

However, I believe that because 'a lot of people' are now realising that there is something amiss in this case then TPTB have to come up with some sort of 'closure' to the case which will satisfy 'a lot of people' and therefore push it all back into the background.  But not for those up us that know better.  

I believe PTBP have to find a credible but safe option - whether this turns out to be some action against the Mccanns depends on if that is deemed safe to do so i.e. what the Mccanns could subsequently reveal about TBTB. 

I can think of several options, there will be many more I am sure:-

The MSM now going to discredit the Mccanns to the extent that anything they say is discredited so they do not have TPTB over a barrel.
TPTB go for a 'get-out' option (i.e. a patsy) to keep the Mccanns happy and thus quiet.
Some sort of agreement is reached with the Mccanns about what the outcome is what is revealed in the outcome of the case and for ever thereafter.

I go for a mixture of all three.


So yes aiyoyo I would say very definitely a whitewash but in the above context. I wouldn't believe we are being told the truth even if the Mccanns were banged up tomorrow.


All in my own opinion, nothing stated as fact.

aquila wrote:Why announce a dig?

Why announce a helicopter reccie of PDL?

Why put out TWO different versions of a 'reconstruction' that had nothing much in common with the released files?

Why tell the media that GPR equipment is now allowed on Portuguese soil?

Why tell the media that a number of ILOR's have not been sanctioned?

Why tell the media anything at all? It's not as if Madeleine's life is in immediate danger is it?

lj wrote:
Please help me (I hate abbreviations!) TPTB PTBP ????

MrsC wrote:

lj wrote:
Please help me (I hate abbreviations!) TPTB PTBP ????

The Powers That Be.  No idea about the other one. 

lj wrote:

aquila wrote:Why announce a dig?

Why announce a helicopter reccie of PDL?

Why put out TWO different versions of a 'reconstruction' that had nothing much in common with the released files?

Why tell the media that GPR equipment is now allowed on Portuguese soil?

Why tell the media that a number of ILOR's have not been sanctioned?

Why tell the media anything at all? It's not as if Madeleine's life is in immediate danger is it?

Exactly aquila, it's a show, that's all it is.

aiyoyo wrote:

lj wrote:

aquila wrote:Why announce a dig?

Why announce a helicopter reccie of PDL?

Why put out TWO different versions of a 'reconstruction' that had nothing much in common with the released files?

Why tell the media that GPR equipment is now allowed on Portuguese soil?

Why tell the media that a number of ILOR's have not been sanctioned?

Why tell the media anything at all? It's not as if Madeleine's life is in immediate danger is it?

Exactly aquila, it's a show, that's all it is.

Depends where the leaks came from and who stood to gain by leaking.

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:One thing that has always bothered me in regards to the theory that Maddy died before the 3rd, is Kate.  I don't think Kate has any control over her emotions, I really can't see her sitting at the Tapas knowing her daughter was dead.  I'm well aware that lots of people do see this is possible, just let me be clear that it's just my feelings on the matter.

But more than that, my main cause of doubt has always been the terrifying scream that was heard by the waiter Salcedas.

Now I'm starting to think - what if the evening of the 3rd was pre-planned, but Kate didn't know about it, or even know Maddy was dead?  What if she had been too 'preoccupied' on the 3rd, hadn't even been into 5A?

I need to refer to the rogatory interview of waiter J.R.Salcedas, as I have several times before:

On the night Madeleine disappeared, everything appeared normal. I remember that when I took notice of the disappearance, I had been in the restaurant speaking with my two colleagues?Ze and Ricardo who were on break. I returned to the restaurant and noticed that the table of nine was empty with the exception of the older woman. I went over to the table and joked with her: ?They've left you alone?? She responded more of less with these words: ?No, they went to see if the little girl was there.? I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleines father, running to the pool and to the childrens play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.

I went to find Ze and Ricardo to give them the news and to get their help in searching for the missing girl. I saw the head of the Milenium Restaurant in the Tapas and asked him to telephone the restaurant.

I ran out of the Tapas and noticed that some of the childcare works of the Mark Warner had begun to arrive. At the point I left the Tapas I heard a scream from a woman I did not know. I do not know who screamed, but I had never heard a similar cry. I cannot even describe it but thought it had come from the child's mother. I went to the reception with one of the child care workers whose name I do not remember. One of the employees looked to be organizing the searches and told us the name of the child.

My previous theory had been that Kate had found Maddy's body.  However, I have had some doubts about that.  I'm now wondering whether the scream occurred when one of the Tapas group finally told Kate what had happened to Maddy, and why she wasn't in 5A.  Kate had lots of bruises on her arms, which to me look as if she had been restrained.

The later "They've taken her", and the more lurid "The f******g b******ds have taken her" make a lot of sense, if she didn't know where Maddy had been taken and by specifically whom - she is referring to the rest of the Tapas group.

I'm wondering if Kate had been considered by Gerry to be too much of a liability, and was therefore kept out of it for as long as absolutely necessary.  In this theory, the 'last photo' once again makes sense, and the gathering in the Paraiso in front of the CCTVs makes sense.

This is quite possible, however if Kate had no involvement in the actual death or hiding of the body, I just can't see her keeping quiet for this long. I'm sure her and Gerry wouldn't have stuck together as strongly as they have. After all, if what you say is what happened,  then technically she would be innocent and her only crime not reporting it to police. 
As for not being in control of her emotions,  Kate always seems very in control in interviews to me. She never ever cries. She never struggles to finish a sentence or has to take a moment to compose herself. She does appear a little lax with the facial expressions,  far too much leakage and sneering going on, but I'd expect her to be a lot more emotional if she didn't actually have anything to do with the death or concealment.

aiyoyo wrote:

lj wrote:

aquila wrote:Why announce a dig?

Why announce a helicopter reccie of PDL?

Why put out TWO different versions of a 'reconstruction' that had nothing much in common with the released files?

Why tell the media that GPR equipment is now allowed on Portuguese soil?

Why tell the media that a number of ILOR's have not been sanctioned?

Why tell the media anything at all? It's not as if Madeleine's life is in immediate danger is it?

Exactly aquila, it's a show, that's all it is.

Depends where the leaks came from and who stood to gain by leaking.

jozi wrote:


Just look at the Claudia Lawrence case, they certainly did not inform the world what they were up to ?

Mirage wrote:

He finishes the day's blog with:

"I spent a couple of hours this afternoon working on forthcoming events but did manage to squeeze in a much-needed haircut!"

But this one on 11th Aug '07 takes the bloody biscuit :

"UNFORTUNATELY, WE HAVE TO ADD PATIENCE TO OUR OTHER CHARACTERISTICS "

I wonder what Gerry thinks their other characteristics are?

REPLY: Mirage, I can share your sense of wonder about this.

We may not know too much about what he thinks their other characteristics are.

However, we are richly blessed with the helpful insights of others.

For example, we have Mark Hollingsworth, in his expose of Kevin Halligen (August 2009), who told us:

"While Kennedy was ready to accept Halligen at face value, Gerry McCann - sharp, focussed and intelligent - was more sceptical'.

Then we have the valuable assessment of Jez Wilkins' squeeze, Bridget O'Donnell:

"Gerry was confident, proud, silly, strong".

I think you'll also find many journalists' evaluations of their characteristics, e.g.

'brave', 'long-suffering'.

Another one, though, that crops up quite often, is...

'furious'.

jozi wrote:

aiyoyo wrote:

lj wrote:

aquila wrote:Why announce a dig?

Why announce a helicopter reccie of PDL?

Why put out TWO different versions of a 'reconstruction' that had nothing much in common with the released files?

Why tell the media that GPR equipment is now allowed on Portuguese soil?

Why tell the media that a number of ILOR's have not been sanctioned?

Why tell the media anything at all? It's not as if Madeleine's life is in immediate danger is it?

Exactly aquila, it's a show, that's all it is.

Depends where the leaks came from and who stood to gain by leaking.

I agree it depends on who is leaking , but they can shut them up surly !!!

Just look at the Claudia Lawrence case, they certainly did not inform the world what they were up to ?

Sonmi-451 wrote:

sar wrote:find the development of this strand interesting.  Not of the camp "it was the swingers wot dunnit!" but something about SSO's info rings true.  In a past life I was involved in "communications for the creative industries" shall we say and was gobsmacked to hear at a boozy industry event a VERY famous footballers adultery being openly discussed at the bar by a bunch of journo's who had pics but just couldn't move on them because of the legal implications.   There is a strange code of conduct in the press, [stop tittering at the back! no really] a sort of honour amongst thieves. They will simply not publish unless they have cast iron proof something happened and it could be proven to have happened from a number of verifiable sources, otherwise it just doesn't run, no matter how astonishing.   No editor wants to be the one who gets their publication sued, potentially for millions and bring the whole gravy train crashing to a halt.  Remember, its free drinks, drugs, girls, boys, junkets etc for the rest of your life if you play your cards right, why ruin it with printing something that can't be made to stand up??  Even if true.  What now makes me believe the swinging theory just might be true is if it is an open secret but it has been agreed for lots of reasons, never to see the light of day.  Strangely the press would close ranks or cover up swinging by a famous politician / "face" but would be less keen to keep silent if the rumours were about something much worse.   The press do, inspite of common belief have some backbone / decency.

Years ago I knew a rather wealthy hairdresser out in the provinces... He was a barber to a 'top journo' and told me all about a VERY famous footballer. I've never been one for football but think he was a Striker who was big in the 80s...and still a household face now, and I think they might sometimes crop up several times a night on non-BBC channels, (I do not have a TV so can't vouch for this). So I wonder if it is the same one?...

Indeed my hairdresser chum was shown, (so they claimed, and I have no reason to doubt it), a couple of intimate photos of the 'Top Footballer' with a female celeb of the time who had the initials 'MS'. Apparently they were engaged in 'activities' on a kitchen table! I was, at that time, naive as to how the World worked, and so couldn't grasp why the NotW, at least, hadn't printed these tales... My chum said that he asked the same question and the journo said it was simple economics and the footballer was simply worth more to Fleet Street as a 'week-in-week-out' household name than what they'd earn through a one-off Sunday expose that would ruin his popularity.  Looking back, what strikes me was my chum told me about a three other celeb titbits that the journalist imparted at the time...and all three came out in the press many years later. One set of stories was about Cyril Smith, (only recently being aired in the mainstream press), one was about Portillo, and the other involved a male HRH's insatiable 'anytime/anywhere/anything' passions (that I recall being briefly mooted in the red-tops some years back). Personally I don't care one iota what consenting adults get up to... but knowing that 'gossip sells', but seeing nothing being reported in the press at the time, was the start of my 'awakening' as to how truth and objectivity are, more often than not, low on the list of priorities in what is pumped out to the masses.   

ChippyM wrote:

Personally I don't believe SY are 'leaking' stories, The McSpin is creating the illusion that SY are looking at an endless string of pedos and burglars

nglfi wrote:

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:One thing that has always bothered me in regards to the theory that Maddy died before the 3rd, is Kate.  I don't think Kate has any control over her emotions, I really can't see her sitting at the Tapas knowing her daughter was dead.  I'm well aware that lots of people do see this is possible, just let me be clear that it's just my feelings on the matter.

But more than that, my main cause of doubt has always been the terrifying scream that was heard by the waiter Salcedas.

Now I'm starting to think - what if the evening of the 3rd was pre-planned, but Kate didn't know about it, or even know Maddy was dead?  What if she had been too 'preoccupied' on the 3rd, hadn't even been into 5A?

I need to refer to the rogatory interview of waiter J.R.Salcedas, as I have several times before:

On the night Madeleine disappeared, everything appeared normal. I remember that when I took notice of the disappearance, I had been in the restaurant speaking with my two colleagues?Ze and Ricardo who were on break. I returned to the restaurant and noticed that the table of nine was empty with the exception of the older woman. I went over to the table and joked with her: ?They've left you alone?? She responded more of less with these words: ?No, they went to see if the little girl was there.? I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleines father, running to the pool and to the childrens play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.

I went to find Ze and Ricardo to give them the news and to get their help in searching for the missing girl. I saw the head of the Milenium Restaurant in the Tapas and asked him to telephone the restaurant.

I ran out of the Tapas and noticed that some of the childcare works of the Mark Warner had begun to arrive. At the point I left the Tapas I heard a scream from a woman I did not know. I do not know who screamed, but I had never heard a similar cry. I cannot even describe it but thought it had come from the child's mother. I went to the reception with one of the child care workers whose name I do not remember. One of the employees looked to be organizing the searches and told us the name of the child.

My previous theory had been that Kate had found Maddy's body.  However, I have had some doubts about that.  I'm now wondering whether the scream occurred when one of the Tapas group finally told Kate what had happened to Maddy, and why she wasn't in 5A.  Kate had lots of bruises on her arms, which to me look as if she had been restrained.

The later "They've taken her", and the more lurid "The f******g b******ds have taken her" make a lot of sense, if she didn't know where Maddy had been taken and by specifically whom - she is referring to the rest of the Tapas group.

I'm wondering if Kate had been considered by Gerry to be too much of a liability, and was therefore kept out of it for as long as absolutely necessary.  In this theory, the 'last photo' once again makes sense, and the gathering in the Paraiso in front of the CCTVs makes sense.

This is quite possible, however if Kate had no involvement in the actual death or hiding of the body, I just can't see her keeping quiet for this long. I'm sure her and Gerry wouldn't have stuck together as strongly as they have. After all, if what you say is what happened,  then technically she would be innocent and her only crime not reporting it to police. 
As for not being in control of her emotions,  Kate always seems very in control in interviews to me. She never ever cries. She never struggles to finish a sentence or has to take a moment to compose herself. She does appear a little lax with the facial expressions,  far too much leakage and sneering going on, but I'd expect her to be a lot more emotional if she didn't actually have anything to do with the death or concealment.

Tony Bennett wrote:

ChippyM wrote:

Personally I don't believe SY are 'leaking' stories, The McSpin is creating the illusion that SY are looking at an endless string of pedos and burglars

ChippyM, this is no illusion created by 'McSpin', as you put it.

At least some of these specific press stories have been confirmed as true by Scotland Yard, which proves there are leaks; all the evidence suggests to me that these are quite deliberate by Scotland Yard.

But over and above that, are Scotland Yard 'looking at an endless string of paedos and burglars?

Definitely! 

Mobile phones to search - more than ten thousand 

Sex offenders to trace - over 500

Suspects - 60 so far, 22 eliminated, 38 left

ILORs asking to interview named burglars? - confirmed by Grange

Smelly bin man may have broken into 18 homes? - confirmed by Grange.

And so on...

Cristobell wrote:

nglfi wrote:

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:One thing that has always bothered me in regards to the theory that Maddy died before the 3rd, is Kate.  I don't think Kate has any control over her emotions, I really can't see her sitting at the Tapas knowing her daughter was dead.  I'm well aware that lots of people do see this is possible, just let me be clear that it's just my feelings on the matter.

But more than that, my main cause of doubt has always been the terrifying scream that was heard by the waiter Salcedas.

Now I'm starting to think - what if the evening of the 3rd was pre-planned, but Kate didn't know about it, or even know Maddy was dead?  What if she had been too 'preoccupied' on the 3rd, hadn't even been into 5A?

I need to refer to the rogatory interview of waiter J.R.Salcedas, as I have several times before:

On the night Madeleine disappeared, everything appeared normal. I remember that when I took notice of the disappearance, I had been in the restaurant speaking with my two colleagues?Ze and Ricardo who were on break. I returned to the restaurant and noticed that the table of nine was empty with the exception of the older woman. I went over to the table and joked with her: ?They've left you alone?? She responded more of less with these words: ?No, they went to see if the little girl was there.? I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleines father, running to the pool and to the childrens play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.

I went to find Ze and Ricardo to give them the news and to get their help in searching for the missing girl. I saw the head of the Milenium Restaurant in the Tapas and asked him to telephone the restaurant.

I ran out of the Tapas and noticed that some of the childcare works of the Mark Warner had begun to arrive. At the point I left the Tapas I heard a scream from a woman I did not know. I do not know who screamed, but I had never heard a similar cry. I cannot even describe it but thought it had come from the child's mother. I went to the reception with one of the child care workers whose name I do not remember. One of the employees looked to be organizing the searches and told us the name of the child.

My previous theory had been that Kate had found Maddy's body.  However, I have had some doubts about that.  I'm now wondering whether the scream occurred when one of the Tapas group finally told Kate what had happened to Maddy, and why she wasn't in 5A.  Kate had lots of bruises on her arms, which to me look as if she had been restrained.

The later "They've taken her", and the more lurid "The f******g b******ds have taken her" make a lot of sense, if she didn't know where Maddy had been taken and by specifically whom - she is referring to the rest of the Tapas group.

I'm wondering if Kate had been considered by Gerry to be too much of a liability, and was therefore kept out of it for as long as absolutely necessary.  In this theory, the 'last photo' once again makes sense, and the gathering in the Paraiso in front of the CCTVs makes sense.

This is quite possible, however if Kate had no involvement in the actual death or hiding of the body, I just can't see her keeping quiet for this long. I'm sure her and Gerry wouldn't have stuck together as strongly as they have. After all, if what you say is what happened,  then technically she would be innocent and her only crime not reporting it to police. 
As for not being in control of her emotions,  Kate always seems very in control in interviews to me. She never ever cries. She never struggles to finish a sentence or has to take a moment to compose herself. She does appear a little lax with the facial expressions,  far too much leakage and sneering going on, but I'd expect her to be a lot more emotional if she didn't actually have anything to do with the death or concealment.

We always think of Kate as being a loose cannon, and I think on occasion she can be, but overall Kate has been remarkably stoic, she has kept her head and continued with the McCann agenda/scam for 7 years, and we know now via 'KH1' that even when her world was collapsing behind the scenes, she was still able to give television interviews claiming the PJ did not consider her or her husband suspects.  There are hundreds of examples of Kate and Gerry acting their hearts for the cameras, they didn't convince those of us on here, but they did manage to convince the powers that be, Lorraine Kelly and the legions of Sun readers, and of course a number of senior police officers. The 'covering' behaviour of the McCanns since 3rd May 2007, convinces me that they were more than capable of putting on a charade on the night they reported Madeleine missing.

ChippyM wrote:

Tony Bennett wrote:

ChippyM wrote:

Personally I don't believe SY are 'leaking' stories, The McSpin is creating the illusion that SY are looking at an endless string of pedos and burglars

ChippyM, this is no illusion created by 'McSpin', as you put it.

At least some of these specific press stories have been confirmed as true by Scotland Yard, which proves there are leaks; all the evidence suggests to me that these are quite deliberate by Scotland Yard.

But over and above that, are Scotland Yard 'looking at an endless string of paedos and burglars?

Definitely! 

Mobile phones to search - more than ten thousand 

Sex offenders to trace - over 500

Suspects - 60 so far, 22 eliminated, 38 left

ILORs asking to interview named burglars? - confirmed by Grange

Smelly bin man may have broken into 18 homes? - confirmed by Grange.

And so on...

 Sorry I have to be pedantic and disagree, It's exhausting trying to unravel all the spin on this and I believe the  McCann's PR definitely creates a false picture or illusion of what is actually going on.

 For example the ILOR. I'm 99.9% sure SY never confirmed what or who that was about.

"
The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) has sent a letter to Portuguese authorities in relation to the case, which according to reports in the Daily Mirror included a request for permission to detain the three men.
.........A spokesperson representing Madeleine’s parents Kate and Gerry told The Mirror: “The letter is a significant development. It is necessary for British police to request the Portuguese authorities allow them to operate on their turf.
“It means they have the intention of arresting and interviewing X, Y or Z. We don’t know who they have their sights on but it’s likely it is the burglars."

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]l

 If as part of an investigation all known sex offenders have to be looked at, isn't that standard procedure? Then SY are just appealing to the public when they have talked directly to the media about the smelly man, it's not the same as a leak IMO. The McCann's spin is responsible for making people believe SY are ONLY pursuing random sex offenders.

SixMillionQuid wrote:

A proper investigation should not be concerned about what the McCanns, or their spokesman thinks.

Cristobell wrote:

nglfi wrote:

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:One thing that has always bothered me in regards to the theory that Maddy died before the 3rd, is Kate.  I don't think Kate has any control over her emotions, I really can't see her sitting at the Tapas knowing her daughter was dead.  I'm well aware that lots of people do see this is possible, just let me be clear that it's just my feelings on the matter.

But more than that, my main cause of doubt has always been the terrifying scream that was heard by the waiter Salcedas.

Now I'm starting to think - what if the evening of the 3rd was pre-planned, but Kate didn't know about it, or even know Maddy was dead?  What if she had been too 'preoccupied' on the 3rd, hadn't even been into 5A?

I need to refer to the rogatory interview of waiter J.R.Salcedas, as I have several times before:

On the night Madeleine disappeared, everything appeared normal. I remember that when I took notice of the disappearance, I had been in the restaurant speaking with my two colleagues?Ze and Ricardo who were on break. I returned to the restaurant and noticed that the table of nine was empty with the exception of the older woman. I went over to the table and joked with her: ?They've left you alone?? She responded more of less with these words: ?No, they went to see if the little girl was there.? I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleines father, running to the pool and to the childrens play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.

I went to find Ze and Ricardo to give them the news and to get their help in searching for the missing girl. I saw the head of the Milenium Restaurant in the Tapas and asked him to telephone the restaurant.

I ran out of the Tapas and noticed that some of the childcare works of the Mark Warner had begun to arrive. At the point I left the Tapas I heard a scream from a woman I did not know. I do not know who screamed, but I had never heard a similar cry. I cannot even describe it but thought it had come from the child's mother. I went to the reception with one of the child care workers whose name I do not remember. One of the employees looked to be organizing the searches and told us the name of the child.

My previous theory had been that Kate had found Maddy's body.  However, I have had some doubts about that.  I'm now wondering whether the scream occurred when one of the Tapas group finally told Kate what had happened to Maddy, and why she wasn't in 5A.  Kate had lots of bruises on her arms, which to me look as if she had been restrained.

The later "They've taken her", and the more lurid "The f******g b******ds have taken her" make a lot of sense, if she didn't know where Maddy had been taken and by specifically whom - she is referring to the rest of the Tapas group.

I'm wondering if Kate had been considered by Gerry to be too much of a liability, and was therefore kept out of it for as long as absolutely necessary.  In this theory, the 'last photo' once again makes sense, and the gathering in the Paraiso in front of the CCTVs makes sense.

This is quite possible, however if Kate had no involvement in the actual death or hiding of the body, I just can't see her keeping quiet for this long. I'm sure her and Gerry wouldn't have stuck together as strongly as they have. After all, if what you say is what happened,  then technically she would be innocent and her only crime not reporting it to police. 
As for not being in control of her emotions,  Kate always seems very in control in interviews to me. She never ever cries. She never struggles to finish a sentence or has to take a moment to compose herself. She does appear a little lax with the facial expressions,  far too much leakage and sneering going on, but I'd expect her to be a lot more emotional if she didn't actually have anything to do with the death or concealment.

We always think of Kate as being a loose cannon, and I think on occasion she can be, but overall Kate has been remarkably stoic, she has kept her head and continued with the McCann agenda/scam for 7 years, and we know now via 'KH1' that even when her world was collapsing behind the scenes, she was still able to give television interviews claiming the PJ did not consider her or her husband suspects.  There are hundreds of examples of Kate and Gerry acting their hearts for the cameras, they didn't convince those of us on here, but they did manage to convince the powers that be, Lorraine Kelly and the legions of Sun readers, and of course a number of senior police officers. The 'covering' behaviour of the McCanns since 3rd May 2007, convinces me that they were more than capable of putting on a charade on the night they reported Madeleine missing.