Re: CRIMEWATCH Update on MadeleineMcCann case tonight 19th March

by ultimaThule 21.03.14 13:44

noddy100 wrote:Daily mail now saying the 3 burglars are still prime suspects Its a real mess all this cross reporting

"Confusion is good", noddy, winkwink

by suzyjohnson 21.03.14 13:48

The Daily Mail is reporting that Monteiro was questioned in relation to these assaults, presumably because he was stealing from apartments at around the same time, but there was no evidence against him. So, clearly, Redwood is still trying to discover who was responsible for the assaults. Once he knows this, presumably, he will ask the Smith family whether this offender resembles the man they saw in PdL on 3 May.

Thanks to Nereid for listing where the 5 actual assaults (as opposed to the other 7 cases where presumably someone was seen wandering around apartments, talking to children, sitting on beds) took place. I notice none of the assaults took place actually in PdL but at places at least 15 miles away. It's possible that all 12 cases may not be the same person. If Redwood finds out additional information he will then be able to eliminate this offender from his list of suspects in relation to the MM case.

So, still a long way to go I think.

by Mirage 21.03.14 13:55

Hicks wrote:The feeling I get from reading these latest revelations in the press is that things are coming together nicely!

Clever man AR, he has hinted that he and his Portuguese counterparts are not working too closely together ( by this I mean his words on, 'don't assume that if you have reported things to the PJ we will necessarily know then too') when I bet in reality they are working very closely together to reach the same end.

We have Tannerman now eliminated.
We have Tractorman now aligned with the child molester/ burglar ( killing three birds with one stone) and are in the process of eliminating him as seen by the reports today from the PJ that he was investigated and there was no evidence linking him to Madeleine's abduction.

Options are running out.

You have to see things from AR perspective. The McCann's have already taken one leading detective to court for not coming up with the right answer, also it can't help things for AR when the McCann's have friends in high places, he must tread carefully.

Shouldn't that read - for coming up with the right answer?

by Hicks 21.03.14 13:58

Mirage wrote:
Hicks wrote:The feeling I get from reading these latest revelations in the press is that things are coming together nicely!

Clever man AR, he has hinted that he and his Portuguese counterparts are not working too closely together ( by this I mean his words on, 'don't assume that if you have reported things to the PJ we will necessarily know then too') when I bet in reality they are working very closely together to reach the same end.

We have Tannerman now eliminated.
We have Tractorman now aligned with the child molester/ burglar ( killing three birds with one stone) and are in the process of eliminating him as seen by the reports today from the PJ that he was investigated and there was no evidence linking him to Madeleine's abduction.

Options are running out.

You have to see things from AR perspective. The McCann's have already taken one leading detective to court for not coming up with the right answer, also it can't help things for AR when the McCann's have friends in high places, he must tread carefully.

Shouldn't that read - for coming up with the right answer?

The right answer ....according to the McCann's!

by TheTruthWillOut 21.03.14 17:23

Quick question: Didn't Redwood intimate that any suspect could be eliminated, presumably via DNA? Therefore, if the culprit is the man from Cape Verde who has had dealings with the Portuguese justice system, wouldn't they be able to very quickly check if it was him?

by notlongnow 21.03.14 17:40

TheTruthWillOut wrote:Quick question: Didn't Redwood intimate that any suspect could be eliminated, presumably via DNA? Therefore, if the culprit is the man from Cape Verde who has had dealings with the Portuguese justice system, wouldn't they be able to very quickly check if it was him?

yes,that's how it sounded to me.

by Tangled Web 21.03.14 18:08

notlongnow wrote:
TheTruthWillOut wrote:Quick question: Didn't Redwood intimate that any suspect could be eliminated, presumably via DNA? Therefore, if the culprit is the man from Cape Verde who has had dealings with the Portuguese justice system, wouldn't they be able to very quickly check if it was him?
yes,that's how it sounded to me.

I thought they didn't manage to retrieve any DNA as the apartment was forensically cleaned???

by Hicks 21.03.14 18:31

Tangled Web wrote:
notlongnow wrote:
TheTruthWillOut wrote:Quick question: Didn't Redwood intimate that any suspect could be eliminated, presumably via DNA? Therefore, if the culprit is the man from Cape Verde who has had dealings with the Portuguese justice system, wouldn't they be able to very quickly check if it was him?
yes,that's how it sounded to me.

I thought they didn't manage to retrieve any DNA as the apartment was forensically cleaned???

That's what I thought. There was no DNA recovered only a semen stain that morphed into a saliva stain. I seem to remember something about a bloody footprint as well.

by Tangled Web 21.03.14 18:38

Hicks wrote:
Tangled Web wrote:
notlongnow wrote:
TheTruthWillOut wrote:Quick question: Didn't Redwood intimate that any suspect could be eliminated, presumably via DNA? Therefore, if the culprit is the man from Cape Verde who has had dealings with the Portuguese justice system, wouldn't they be able to very quickly check if it was him?
yes,that's how it sounded to me.

I thought they didn't manage to retrieve any DNA as the apartment was forensically cleaned???
That's what I thought. There was no DNA recovered only a semen stain that morphed into a saliva stain. I seem to remember something about a bloody footprint as well.

So how can anybody be eliminated???

by **Tony Bennett** 21.03.14 18:53

Tangled Web wrote:
Hicks wrote:
Tangled Web wrote:
notlongnow wrote:
TheTruthWillOut wrote:Quick question: Didn't Redwood intimate that any suspect could be eliminated, presumably via DNA? Therefore, if the culprit is the man from Cape Verde who has had dealings with the Portuguese justice system, wouldn't they be able to very quickly check if it was him?
yes,that's how it sounded to me.

I thought they didn't manage to retrieve any DNA as the apartment was forensically cleaned???
That's what I thought. There was no DNA recovered only a semen stain that morphed into a saliva stain. I seem to remember something about a bloody footprint as well.

So how can anybody be eliminated???

If he can prove e.g. that he was:

* on a world cruise, somewhere between Malaysia and Diego Garcia, on 3 May 2007

* in Odemira Prison, Portugal (or any other prison) on 3 May 2007

* in Lisbon Psychiatric Hospital, secure ward (or any other hospital), on 3 May 2007

or having some similar watertight alibi

by Watching The Detectives 21.03.14 19:17

With regard to elimination.....this is what I inferred from what was said:

They have DNA from the crime scene of one of the assaults mentioned i.e. nothing to do with samples taken from apartment 5A.

If someone thinks they know who the culprit is, then it could be ascertained whether or not they are in fact the guilty party by doing a comparison of their DNA with DNA they have from one of the assault crime scenes.

by Liz Eagles 21.03.14 19:20

Watching The Detectives wrote:With regard to elimination.....this is what I inferred from what was said:

They have DNA from the crime scene of one of the assaults mentioned i.e. nothing to do with samples taken from apartment 5A.

If someone thinks they know who the culprit is, then it could be ascertained whether or not they are in fact the guilty party by doing a comparison of their DNA with DNA they have from one of the assault crime scenes.

UK police has no jurisdiction in Portugal so unless the PJ asked Scotland Yard to help them out with a bit of a problem that they couldn't sort out for themselves (!!!) this is nonsense.

by canada12 21.03.14 19:25

I have a question regarding the semen / saliva stain which was taken from the bedcover of the window-side bed in Madeleine's room in 5A.

Would you expect bedcovers of that sort to be laundered after each family has finished their stay in the apartment?

The bedcovers seem very lightweight and easily washed, and I might venture a guess that they would be laundered along with the sheets and pillowcases in advance of each new set of guests?

Has anyone ever checked this?

If so, if all the bedcovers were laundered in between guest visits, what is DNA doing there from a previous guest? Are we sure it's from a previous guest and not a current visitor? The DNA test result reports are written with quite a lot of ambiguity when it comes to this particular stain, which does seem to have morphed from semen into saliva.

by Newintown 21.03.14 19:25

Tangled Web wrote:
notlongnow wrote:
TheTruthWillOut wrote:Quick question: Didn't Redwood intimate that any suspect could be eliminated, presumably via DNA? Therefore, if the culprit is the man from Cape Verde who has had dealings with the Portuguese justice system, wouldn't they be able to very quickly check if it was him?
yes,that's how it sounded to me.

I thought they didn't manage to retrieve any DNA as the apartment was forensically cleaned???

SY were referring to the break ins of the villas in other areas around PDL where nobody saw, heard or identified the culprit, but he strolled out without the parents of the said upset molested children doing anything about it i.e, kicking him in the goolies, giving him a good seeing to, tearing his hair out, tearing his sweatshirt off with the big "0" sign on it, no, none of that, they let him stroll out of their villas and sent him on his way without looking at his face, hoping he would find his own villa soon with his wife waiting with a rolling pin no knock him unconscious for staying out all night. smilie

by Newintown 21.03.14 19:30

canada12 wrote:I have a question regarding the semen / saliva stain which was taken from the bedcover of the window-side bed in Madeleine's room in 5A.

Would you expect bedcovers of that sort to be laundered after each family has finished their stay in the apartment?

The bedcovers seem very lightweight and easily washed, and I might venture a guess that they would be laundered along with the sheets and pillowcases in advance of each new set of guests?

Has anyone ever checked this?

If so, if all the bedcovers were laundered in between guest visits, what is DNA doing there from a previous guest? Are we sure it's from a previous guest and not a current visitor? The DNA test result reports are written with quite a lot of ambiguity when it comes to this particular stain, which does seem to have morphed from semen into saliva.

I believe it was only a saliva stain but morphed into a semen stain by the over excited press who seemed to make a big story out of it (making a mountain out of a molehill) yet again to sell their newspapers, unless someone can explain otherwise.

by Watching The Detectives 21.03.14 20:43

If I recall correctly, I think the files showed tests on bedcover stain indicated as weakly positive for semen but DNA present was matched to a young boy (too young to be responsible for stain) who had stayed in the apartment.

Not sure what was concluded....and whether it could be that the stain was semen from unidentified person and that the boy's DNA had also been transferred at a different time to same area of cloth.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (at very end of this doc)

by Mirage 21.03.14 21:16

Newintown wrote:
Tangled Web wrote:
notlongnow wrote:
TheTruthWillOut wrote:Quick question: Didn't Redwood intimate that any suspect could be eliminated, presumably via DNA? Therefore, if the culprit is the man from Cape Verde who has had dealings with the Portuguese justice system, wouldn't they be able to very quickly check if it was him?
yes,that's how it sounded to me.

I thought they didn't manage to retrieve any DNA as the apartment was forensically cleaned???

SY were referring to the break ins of the villas in other areas around PDL where nobody saw, heard or identified the culprit, but he strolled out without the parents of the said upset molested children doing anything about it i.e, kicking him in the goolies, giving him a good seeing to, tearing his hair out, tearing his sweatshirt off with the big "0" sign on it, no, none of that, they let him stroll out of their villas and sent him on his way without looking at his face, hoping he would find his own villa soon with his wife waiting with a rolling pin no knock him unconscious for staying out all night.

Stop it. Hysteria is setting in again.

by **Tony Bennett** 21.03.14 21:55

I have looked again at the 3 min 55 sec clip from the CrimeWatch programme - Matthew Amroliwola talking to camera and then entering the 'Operations Room' of Operation Grange.

Two things struck me:

1. The volume of paperwork, and
2. The distance of this 'operation hub' from the scene of the crime: about 2,000 miles.

A massive operation costing millions and employing some 38 detectives and goodness knows how many support staff, sited 2,000 miles away from the scene of the alleged abduction seems, on the face of it, crazy. And especially so when the crime certainly occurred in a foreign country, Portugal, it is far more likely than not to have been a Portuguese resident who committed any abduction, and it would be Portuguese police and the courts who would have to prosecute the casee, not Scotland Yard.

It is Kafka-esque on so many levels.

As for the paperwaork, as Redwood and D.I. Tim Dobson step into the incident room, there is a wall full of box files to thoir immediate left.

On each shelf, there were between 9 and 12 box files.

In each unit, there were 5 shelves.

There were 3 units next to each other:

So, 3 units x 5 shelves = 15 shelves x say 10 box files per shelf = 150 box files, with say up to 500 sheets of paper in each box file = 75,000 sheets of paper.

For all I know there may be shelves, units or even whole rooms full more of documents.

And there were still more boxes on a mass of tables.

Boxes labelled:

'OP GRANGE - FOR READING - ADMIN/MEDIA/ MISC. DOCS'

and

'OPERATION GRANGE - OM - FOR APPROVAL'

and

'OPERATION GRANGE - INDEXING'.

It looks like the indexing of all the documents is itself a major sub-operation requiring several staff to administer it.

There were hundreds of such boxes on view - all overflowing with paperwork.

I guess that's not too surprising when you have made 287 separate requests, sent 33 ILORS, with more to come, you're working on 'multiple priority lines of inquiry', you've taken over 500 statements and raised 5,569 actions (I make that more than 5 every day, including weekends and bank holidays), you've been working on 60 'persons of interest', you have tens of thousands of mobile 'phone records to examine, and you're trawling through the records and personal histories of 530 sex offenders.

The entire operation has a false, hollow, surreal aspect to it, the record volumes of paperwork, the plethora of unlikely suspects, the e-fits that come and go like butterfiles on the wing, the endless presentation of meaningless and improbable statistics, the pretence that there s co-operation between the two forces when all the indications suggest the very opposite, and now the Prime Minister of Britian weighing in with palpably false claims that there is 'some progress' after 7 years, when there is clearly nothing tangible, and then offering basically to sort out those unco-operative Portuguese Police next time he attends an E.U. summit and sits next to the Portugese Prime Minister at dinner - presumably by saying something like: 'Look, old chap, do tell your Chief of Police to get a move on, will you?'

If Kafka were alive today, he would have a great plot line and lots of material right up his street for his next novel.

by Tangled Web 21.03.14 22:06

Newintown wrote:
Tangled Web wrote:
notlongnow wrote:
TheTruthWillOut wrote:Quick question: Didn't Redwood intimate that any suspect could be eliminated, presumably via DNA? Therefore, if the culprit is the man from Cape Verde who has had dealings with the Portuguese justice system, wouldn't they be able to very quickly check if it was him?
yes,that's how it sounded to me.

I thought they didn't manage to retrieve any DNA as the apartment was forensically cleaned???

SY were referring to the break ins of the villas in other areas around PDL where nobody saw, heard or identified the culprit, but he strolled out without the parents of the said upset molested children doing anything about it i.e, kicking him in the goolies, giving him a good seeing to, tearing his hair out, tearing his sweatshirt off with the big "0" sign on it, no, none of that, they let him stroll out of their villas and sent him on his way without looking at his face, hoping he would find his own villa soon with his wife waiting with a rolling pin no knock him unconscious for staying out all night.

Ah well that makes sense then big grin

by russiandoll 21.03.14 22:21

quote TonyB " If Kafka were alive today, he would have a great plot line and lots of material right up his street for his next novel. "

I read some Kafka for my degree. Did you know this, Tony , about his novel Amerika ?

The original manuscript bears no title – Amerika is the name given to it by Kafka’s friend and posthumous editor, Max Brod. He chose the title because Kafka often called the work his “American novel,” but Kafka had a number of different names for it, such as Der Verschollene (translated alternately as The Man Who Disappeared, The Missing One, Lost Without a Trace, or The Lost One)

by russiandoll 21.03.14 22:40

I know that he is persona non grata here and we are not allowed to post his stuff any longer, but I would urge a look at Blacksmith's latest.

by **Tony Bennett** 21.03.14 22:41

russiandoll wrote:quote TonyB " If Kafka were alive today, he would have a great plot line and lots of material right up his street for his next novel. "

I read some Kafka for my degree. Did you know this, Tony , about his novel Amerika ?

The original manuscript bears no title – Amerika is the name given to it by Kafka’s friend and posthumous editor, Max Brod. He chose the title because Kafka often called the work his “American novel,” but Kafka had a number of different names for it, such as Der Verschollene (translated alternately as The Man Who Disappeared, The Missing One, Lost Without a Trace, or The Lost One)

Thank you. I have read 'The Castle' and 'Metamorphosis' (horrible).

The European Union bureaucracy has frequently been described as 'Kafkaesque'.

I found these snippets about Kafka in his Wikipedia entry; I can relate to quite a lot of it...

++++++++++++++

Kafka's writing has inspired the term ‘Kafkaesque’, used to describe concepts and situations reminiscent of his work, particularly ‘Der Process’ and ‘Die Verwandlung’.

Examples include instances in which bureaucracies overpower people, often in a surreal, nightmarish milieu which evokes feelings of senselessness, disorientation, and helplessness. Characters in a Kafkaesque setting often lack a clear course of action to escape the situation.

The term Kafkaesque has transcended the literary realm to apply to real-life occurrences and situations that are incomprehensibly complex, bizarre, or illogical. He writes about the futility of his characters' struggles. The writer Milan Kundera suggests that Kafka's surrealist humour may have been an inversion of Dostoyevsky, who presented characters who were punished for a crime. In Kafka's work a character will be punished although a crime has not been committed.

In Kafka’s works, the legal system is often oppressive. The law in Kafka's works is usually interpreted to represent a collection of anonymous, incomprehensible forces. These are hidden from the individual but control the lives of the people, who are innocent victims of systems beyond their control. Kafka's descriptions of the legal proceedings in Der Process portrayed them as metaphysical, absurd, bewildering and nightmarish…

by **Tony Bennett** 21.03.14 22:43

russiandoll wrote:I know that he is persona non grata here and we are not allowed to post his stuff any longer, but I would urge a look at Blacksmith's latest.

Hmmm, who regularly describes this forum as a 'cesspit'.

Projection?

by Mirage 21.03.14 22:46

Tony Bennett wrote:I have looked again at the 3 min 55 sec clip from the CrimeWatch programme - Matthew Amroliwola talking to camera and then entering the 'Operations Room' of Operation Grange.

Two things struck me:

1. The volume of paperwork, and
2. The distance of this 'operation hub' from the scene of the crime: about 2,000 miles.

A massive operation costing millions and employing some 38 detectives and goodness knows how many support staff, sited 2,000 miles away from the scene of the alleged abduction seems, on the face of it, crazy. And especially so when the crime certainly occurred in a foreign country, Portugal, it is far more likely than not to have been a Portuguese resident who committed any abduction, and it would be Portuguese police and the courts who would have to prosecute the casee, not Scotland Yard.

It is Kafka-esque on so many levels.

As for the paperwaork, as Redwood and D.I. Tim Dobson step into the incident room, there is a wall full of box files to thoir immediate left.

On each shelf, there were between 9 and 12 box files.

In each unit, there were 5 shelves.

There were 3 units next to each other:

So, 3 units x 5 shelves = 15 shelves x say 10 box files per shelf = 150 box files, with say up to 500 sheets of paper in each box file = 75,000 sheets of paper.

For all I know there may be shelves, units or even whole rooms full more of documents.

And there were still more boxes on a mass of tables.

Boxes labelled:

'OP GRANGE - FOR READING - ADMIN/MEDIA/ MISC. DOCS'

and

'OPERATION GRANGE - OM - FOR APPROVAL'

and

'OPERATION GRANGE - INDEXING'.

It looks like the indexing of all the documents is itself a major sub-operation requiring several staff to administer it.

There were hundreds of such boxes on view - all overflowing with paperwork.

I guess that's not too surprising when you have made 287 separate requests, sent 33 ILORS, with more to come, you're working on '[size=16.363636016845703]multiple priority lines of inquiry', you've taken over 500 statements and raised 5,569 actions (I make that more than 5 every day, including weekends and bank holidays), you've been working on 60 'persons of interest', you have tens of thousands of mobile 'phone records to examine, and you're trawling through the records and personal histories of 530 sex offenders.[/size]

The entire operation has a false, hollow, surreal aspect to it, the record volumes of paperwork, the plethora of unlikely suspects, the e-fits that come and go like butterfiles on the wing, the endless presentation of meaningless and improbable statistics, the pretence that there s co-operation between the two forces when all the indications suggest the very opposite, and now the Prime Minister of Britian weighing in with palpably false claims that there is 'some progress' after 7 years, when there is clearly nothing tangible, and then offering basically to sort out those unco-operative Portuguese Police next time he attends an E.U. summit and sits next to the Portugese Prime Minister at dinner - presumably by saying something like: 'Look, old chap, do tell your Chief of Police to get a move on, will you?'

If Kafka were alive today, he would have a great plot line and lots of material right up his street for his next novel.

Next week that lot is being taken up to Rothley in the pantechnicon. The new logo on the side will be the tee shirt circle with a barely noticeable fleck at six o'clock. The files will be handed over to K and G who have vowed to be of assistance to the police by helping with their filing systems. Assistente status to SY was applied for and granted in a last ditch effort to save old Andy the embarrassment of giving his next update on an episode of Secret Hoarders.

Old Gerry realised the filing was getting on top of Andy. The last time Gerry attended his Wider Agenda: Helping Key Suspects Connect With Investigators Initiative it took him 20 minutes to find Andy. All the time his lead cop was right under his nose under a mass of timelines. How they laughed at the irony of that, I can tell you.

This is ludicrous, roared Gerry bullishly. This filing is out of control and hindering the search. There and then, he offered to simplify the system into 'nutters' 'nasties' 'psychics' and 'time-wasters'.

'It's so typical of Gerry to be pro-active,' said Kate. 'We don't mind how much filing we have to go through, s'long as we get the result we want.'

A spokesman close to the family said 'Kate and Gerry are buoyed up by this latest development.'

by russiandoll 21.03.14 22:53

Tony, re my Blacksmith post, projection refers to what ? Forum members have for a long time now not copied his stuff over, but there have been regular pointers to his writings. Is this now not allowed?

by Guest 21.03.14 23:05

I didn't understand the projection comment either, Tony.

by russiandoll 21.03.14 23:15

NFWTD, having read the projection comment again, I think Tony meant that BS was projecting his cesspit comment here when it was an appropriate word for his own blog.

btw... could you tell me, is it ok to mention BS here, while copying his posts is not allowed? I suggested a read of his latest because I saw that something similar was done last month and it appeared to be ok with forum admin. Apologies if I have posted what I should not have done.

by Watching 21.03.14 23:16

russiandoll wrote:Tony, re my Blacksmith post, projection refers to what ? Forum members have for a long time now not copied his stuff over, but there have been regular pointers to his writings. Is this now not allowed?

As a new member I did not know that it was not permitted to mention the name of the person you just have. I posted a link directing to blog on that site, no more no less, no accompanying comment attached or other reference, a simple link which was removed in a blink of an eye. have no complaint in this regard if that is the house rules. I would however feel it unjust if lodgements by other members relating to this person/site are not as swiftly removed.

Cheers

by ProfessorPPlum 21.03.14 23:19

At risk of incurring wrath, I think Blacksmith's latest is superb. I don't care that he is critical of this forum (he has every right to that view), his ability to capture the madness of the whole Madeleine McCann circus is IMO unrivalled.

by russiandoll 21.03.14 23:32

Watching, I agree. Suggesting to go and read is the same as a link, so it appears from what you say that I should not have made the suggestion. I was not aware links as well as posts of BS were no longer allowed.

Why I have asked for clarification. There is more than one topic on the forum related to BS, the pages I looked at recently contained comments on the writings which were not deleted, hence my confusion.

fwiw, I agree with the Prof Plum's post. I will not mention BS again if I am so advised, people are aware of him and those who value his work will go to the blog automatically.