Question about a detail (timelines)

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I have a question concerning details of the two timelines of the tapas9: In the picture we see the first version 3rd May, and the second one altered and signed by Gerry McCann. The last one he gave to the PJ. Well my question is:

- Gerry gave the altered tapas-timeline to PJ on 4th (?).
- Then the first tapas-timeline was surely not intended to be given to the PJ.
- How and when got the PJ knowledge of the first tapas-timeline?

Trajan wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I have a question concerning details of the two timelines of the tapas9: In the picture we see the first version 3rd May, and the second one altered and signed by Gerry McCann. The last one he gave to the PJ. Well my question is:

- Gerry gave the altered tapas-timeline to PJ on 4th (?).
- Then the first tapas-timeline was surely not intended to be given to the PJ.
- How and when got the PJ knowledge of the first tapas-timeline?

Straight for the jugular, are we? 

Very good!

This is not an answer Trajan but some further observations and questions.
Firstly am I correct in thinking this was written by ROB?
If so, it appears he has written this with a sense of audience as he writes about himself in the third person. Who was it intended for?
 Could some-one decipher for me the entries corresponding to 9.50 and  9.55 on the first timeline?

You know what they say about doctors' handwriting being awful!


9.50 Rob returns.

9.55 Kate reaches (?) Madeleine

Not sure about the middle word.

Looks to me like the middle word is "reaction" ?

If I were investigating my main question about these 2 timelines would be who was in the room when they were written?

I'm assuming they were written within an hour or two of the discovery of Madeleine's absence.

But if they were written when Gerry was in the room, he'd obviously know about Tannerman because it's right there, next to Jane's checktime.

So it would make a lie out of their statements that there was a delay telling Kate and / or Gerry about Tanngerman until much later.

Yes the handwriting is difficult to read. I wondered if it said 'RM' at 9.50?

It's difficult to decipher, as it should be, written by a doctor .... However, IMO for one, they're both the same handwriting, e.g. Russel's. The first one nervously and/or insecure, the second one more robust. Matt's visit is indeed completely missing from the 2nd and final version. This 2nd version also introduces the "poorly daughter" for Russ. On version one, but I cannot be sure for the life of me, I tend to read "Kate reaned Madeleine" ...

Have to say if i was investigating i'd be shocked that they have written a time line.
Guessing this was wrote very early after maddie was missing.

If KM thinks they have taken her the thought of a time would only be in your thinking when the police asked for one probably the following day.

You'd have one chance maybe looking for your kid,after that it maybe to late.

The thought that you'd sit down and write a time in my opinion is nuts.

Looks like: "Note re & Del Madeleine".

I've had the magnifier on it and nearly driven myself mad. But I think they are 3 separate words abbreviated.

 I initially wondered if the first word was Kate with an odd K. But comparing it with the 2nd timeline K is properly formed on Kate. So I believe it is Note

I am reading 'Kate raised the alarm' the 'the' being close to the alarm.....

2nd timeline: Alarm raised also Kate....

ekatae wrote:I am reading 'Kate raised the alarm' the 'the' being close to the alarm.....

Just to be clear, I'm looking at the first timeline on the left. I'm seeing:

9.55pm  "Note re & Del Madeleine".

10pm Alarm raised.

2nd could be alarm raised by Kate, but by looks like 'also'....

Interesting then that Matts check at 9.30 is missing on the second list.

Could it be that Matt was the one who found Madeleine? Was it he who Mrs Carpenter heard calling 'Madeleine?

2nd is definitely Alarm raised after Kate.....

1at... Kate raised Malarm... M being Madeleine....

From mccannfiles, here is the timeline........



Timeline 1 (as per sticker book above)

8:45. pm

Matt returns 9.00-9.05 - listened at all 3
- all shutters down

Jerry 9.10-9.15 in the room + all well
? did he check

9.20/5 - Ella Jane checked 5D sees stranger & child

9.30 - Russ. Ella Matt check all 3

9.35 - Matt check see twins

9.50 - Russ returns

9.55 - Kate realised Madeleine

10pm - Alarm raised




Timeline 2 (as per sticker book above)

8.45pm. all assembled at poolside for food

9.00pm. Matt Oldfield listens at all 3 windows 5A, B, D ALL shutters down

9:15pm Gerry McCann looks at room A ? Door open to bedroom

9:20pm Jane Tanner checks 5D - [sees stranger walking carrying a child]

9.30 Russell O'Brien in 5D. Poorly daughter
l

9.55pm

10:00pm. Alarm raised after Kate

Gerald

Madeleine's book

Madeleine's parents ripped off both covers, the front and the back, from a book belonging to Madeleine, in order to write on the inside the timing for each person. Russell O'Brien was involved with the drawing up of the timing. The book was seized by the GNR on the night of the disappearance. These covers would be attached to the case file, as elements of the investigation, on September 7th 2007, although seized during the night of 3rd to 4th May. Here are the terms on which the seizure document was based.

Terms of seizure:

At this time, it is considered of interest to the investigation to attach to the present deed, two covers of a child's book, on the inside covers of which is a schedule for supervision, hand-written by one of the McCann couple's group of friends and participant in this deed by name of Russell O'Brien.

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Now where would we be without you and dear Nigel ...  

It's difficult to decipher, as it should be, written by a doctor .... However, IMO for one, they're both the same handwriting, e.g. Russel's. The first one nervously and/or insecure, the second one more robust. Matt's visit is indeed completely missing from the 2nd and final version. This 2nd version also introduces the "poorly daughter" for Russ. On version one, but I cannot be sure for the life of me, I tend to read "Kate reaned Madeleine" ...''

Thank God for Nigel...!!  (whoever posted this) 'reaned;.....?????

ekatae wrote:It's difficult to decipher, as it should be, written by a doctor .... However, IMO for one, they're both the same handwriting, e.g. Russel's. The first one nervously and/or insecure, the second one more robust. Matt's visit is indeed completely missing from the 2nd and final version. This 2nd version also introduces the "poorly daughter" for Russ. On version one, but I cannot be sure for the life of me, I tend to read "Kate reaned Madeleine" ...''

Thank God for Nigel...!!  (whoever posted this) 'reaned;.....?????

The first one likely under the influence of alcohol.

This is what was posted some years ago on mccannfiles

8:45. pm Matt returns
9.00-9.05 - listened at all 3
                               - all shutters down
 
Jerry 9.10-9.15 in the room + all well
                      ? did he check
 
9.20/5 - Ella Jane checked 5D sees stranger & child
 
9.30 - Russ. Ella Matt check all 3
 
9.35 - Matt check see twins
 
9.50 - Russ returns
 
9.55 - Kate realised Madeleine
 
10pm - Alarm raised
 
Timeline 2 (as per sticker book above)
 
8.45pm. all assembled at poolside for food
 
9.00pm. Matt Oldfield listens at all 3 windows 5A, B, D ALL shutters down
 
9:15pm Gerry McCann looks at room A ? Door open to bedroom
 
9:20pm Jane Tanner checks 5D - [sees stranger walking carrying a child]
 
9.30 Russell O'Brien in 5D. Poorly daughter
  l
9.55pm
 
10:00pm. Alarm raised after Kate
 
Gerald

Trajan wrote:In the picture we see the first version 3rd May, and the second one altered and signed by Gerry McCann. The last one he gave to the PJ. Well my question is:

- Gerry gave the altered tapas-timeline to PJ on 4th (?).
- Then the first tapas-timeline was surely not intended to be given to the PJ.
- How and when got the PJ knowledge of the first tapas-timeline?

Trajan, can you provide a link to support the second picture was altered and signed by Gerry and that he gave it to the PJ on 4th?

Thanks.

Reaned as in reanimated (= abbreviated doctors lingo?)

Portia wrote:Reaned as in reanimated (= abbreviated doctors lingo?)

***
Yes. Maybe ... I just cannot make anything else of it

Regarding the tapas-timelines we can see through the three interveiws of Gerry by the PJ:

Interview 4th May:  he refers to the second altered timeline signed with "Gerald" (Alarm: 22:00)
Interview 10th May: he refers to the second altered timeline plus now setting up a further altered timeline to alarm alleged at about 22:13 (!).
Interview 7th Sept.: refers in very vague to second altered timeline plus his alteration of 10th of May.

This is expecially disturbing to the facts:
- four independent witnesses (personal of OC) state the alarm was already raised around 21:40
- the Smith-Seeing came to knowledge of the PJ on the 26th May ( [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] )

So for the raising of alleged Tapas-Alarm-Times to more and more into the future there is the question left,
how handled Gerry the acussed two timelines of 3rd/4th?

- did he first intend to give the second altered timeline as an official statement (signed by Gerald) to the PJ?
- did he eventually disregard this as being to obvious and risky?
- or what ever did happen to the timelines?
- e.g. did happen there a "mistake", such that the PJ unfortunately took away both timelines on evening 3rd?
- and thus Gerry didn't posses it at 4th and 10th?
- did PJ mentioned them even much later, when looking at the confiscated things from the apartment by occasion?

The correct answers should give some additional insights into the evolution of Tapas-timelines.

Sources:

Now, in his first interview 4th Sept. 2007 he states:
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...After 20.30, the witness and his wife, after looking at the children, went to the Tapas Bar...
As usual, every half hour and as the restaurant was near, the witness or his wife, would check whether the children were all right. 

In this way, at about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, 
entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom ....
....and bumped into a person he had played tennis with and who had a child's push chair, he was also British, 
he had a short conversation with him, "returning after that to the restaurant." 

...At about 21.30 his friend Matt (member of the group) went to the apartment,
....as everything was calm, the shutters were closed and the door to the bedroom was ajar as usual. 
"After that Matt returned to the restaurant." 

...At about 22.00 it was his wife Kate who went to check on the children. 

...After checking the apartment thoroughly, his wife, quite shocked and upset, went to the restaurant, alerting the witness and the others...

..Immediately the group rapidly went to the club, "searched all the accommodations/lodgings,  swimming pool, tennis courts, etc. and the apartment, 

...one of the members of the group, Jane, at about 21.10 - 21.15 when she was going to her apartment to check on her children, 
she saw from the back, at a distance of about 50 metres, on the road bordering the club, an individual....


So here he refers to the second altered timeline signed with "Gerald".

And in his second interview 10th May 2007 he states:
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----- They took the usual route to the TAPAS, where they arrived a little after 20H35, 
....At 21H00, MATHEW stood up from the table saying that he would go to see the children. 
....At 21H05 MATHEW returned, the time at which the deponent left the table to go to check how his children were.
....After going through the side gate, and while on his way to the secondary reception entrance, less than 10 metres from the gate, 
he saw JEZ coming up the street ....both having chatted for 3 to 4 minutes, about tennis, holidays and children. 
While he maintained the conversation with JEZ he saw no-one from the group, 
nor detected any suspicious individual or vehicle. He relates also that JEZ never said to him that 
he had seen any person given that he was in front.

...he returned to the TAPAS between 21h10 and 21h15 the dinner having gone as normal. 

...At 21h30 he drew KATE'S attention to the fact that it was time for her to go to see the children, 
MATHEW having immediately volunteered to substitute given that she was talking. 
...Three to four minutes later MATHEW returned saying only "it is all calm", 

...After MATHEW arrived and before KATE left, he does not recall if anyone else was absent, 

...Half and hour later, without anything to signal [with no way to tell the time], it being 22h03, 
he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go to see the children. 

... About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness and, 
...at the moment KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared 

...he is [?] convinced that the abduction occurred in the period understood to be 
between his visit at 21h05 and MATHEW'S visit at 21H30. Only about 01h00 on 4 May 2007 did he learn through RUSSELL that his companion, 
JANE, at 21h10, could have seen an individual crossing the top of the road with a child in his arms, 
that may or may not have been his daughter MADELEINE. 



Well, in the interviews of Gerry I can only find the tapas-timelines mentioned in his 
last interview as an arguido in 7th September 2007:
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2567 to 2568 Statement of identity and residence for Gerald McCann
2569 to 2578 Interrogation of Gerald McCann 2007.09.07 with written timeline on Sainsbury's sticker book. 
2579 Support page with written (Gerry?) timeline and cover of sticker book
2580 Opening of appendix I
...The third check was made by Kate at around 22:00. He does not know how long it was before Kate returned,
but he does remember that shortly before she returned he was thinking of going to see what was going on, 
as it seemed a long time and he thought that one of children might have woken up.

think it reads 9,55 "kate realised madeleine... or kate realises madeleine etc.

Châtelaine wrote:

Portia wrote:Reaned as in reanimated (= abbreviated doctors lingo?)

***
Yes. Maybe ... I just cannot make anything else of it

I just can't see these timelines intended for the police. Two different ones doesn't look good and the way 'Gerald' is written doesn't look like a signature but more as an example how the name is spelled. 

Possibly when the police took it with them. 

ROB's brain is leakier than most, I can't see anything else could fit 'reaned'  or 'ran etc' ?
Surely he can't be that absent minded? 

There  was no time for re-animation of any kind unless Kate herself had to be re-animated?

Eta: yes, realised is much more likely.

Portia wrote:Reaned as in reanimated (= abbreviated doctors lingo?)

Never heard that one.

tigger wrote:

Châtelaine wrote:

Portia wrote:Reaned as in reanimated (= abbreviated doctors lingo?)

***
Yes. Maybe ... I just cannot make anything else of it

I just can't see these timelines intended for the police. Two different ones doesn't look good and the way 'Gerald' is written doesn't look like a signature but more as an example how the name is spelled. 

Possibly when the police took it with them. 

ROB's brain is leakier than most, I can't see anything else could fit 'reaned'  or 'ran etc' ?
Surely he can't be that absent minded? 

There  was no time for re-animation of any kind unless Kate herself had to be re-animated?

Eta: yes, realised is much more likely.

It does not look like a signature, I agree. Maybe they meant that that copy was for Gerry. I still think that the handwriting on the first timeline is alcohol distorted, and so is the use of English, although we know from the rogatories that even sober their command of the English language is at best poor.