Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

by **Tony Bennett** 07.11.13 22:33

TheTruthWillOut wrote:Keeping things as simple as possible, a scenario (feel free to shoot it down in flames! ):

A male "Tapas" member decides they require a sighting and takes a child at around 10PM and bumps into the Smith family. Later after he gets back he either arranges the Tanner sighting or Tanner announces it to some members (whether invented or not) and he decides to use the Tanner sighting to debunk the Smith sighting.

Like I say.....probably full of holes, but I try.

Well, have you worked this one out in your scenario?

Your male 'Tapas' member, having bumped into the Smith family, to quote you: "either arranges the Tanner sighting or Tanner announces it to some members".

The next day, Tanner describes this man and tells the police: "He didn't look like a tourist" - a highly unusual and extremely vague description if ever there was one.

(Not one person on any of the 'Smithman' threads has yet been able to suggest what a tourist looks like and a non-tourist looks like on a cold dark evening in Praia da Luz).

Now, how does one account for the fact that, on 26 May, Smith uses an almost identical, unusual, vague description? - "He didn't look like a tourist".

I suggest four possibilities:

1) it was just a massive coincidence

2) there was a bloke wandering around the streets of Praia da Luz on a cold May evening in the dark carrying a blonde girl in pyjamas and barefoot who for some reason 'didn't look like a tourist'

3) there were TWO blokes wandering arouind the streets of Praia da Luz on a cold May evening in the dark carrying a blonde girl in pyjamas and barefoot who for some reason 'didn't look like tourists'

OR

4) the Smith family made the whole 'sighting' up and in doing so relied on knowledge of Jane Tanner's description.

by logical 07.11.13 22:47

OR Tony
No 5 Tanner and Smiths were asked by their Interviewers did the person you witnessed look like a Tourist or a local?

by Guest 07.11.13 22:49

Perhaps one day we will have all the answers to this mystery.

It's very hard for me to fathom why a large family group who had nothing to do with the McCanns - I am presuming there is no doubt about that? - would have invented the sighting.

Mistaken possibly but a deliberate fabrication - why would they?

by logical 07.11.13 22:54

Tony

I would be most grateful if you could direct me to the first official release date of Tanners witness description

thank you in advance .

by **Tony Bennett** 07.11.13 22:59

logical wrote:OR Tony

No 5 Tanner and Smiths were asked by their Interviewers did the person you witnessed look like a Tourist or a local?

Well, that was quick!

But I must be very careful, else I will get slapped down again for sarcasm, even when, as in this case, some people post unadulterated rubbish.

I have twice given my answer to this, but I will put the point again a third time:

Police officer to Jane Tanner and Martin Smith: "Did he look like a tourist or a local?"

Jane Tanner and Martin Smith: "What do tourists and locals look like?".

logical, people with names like you and 'StraightThinking', of all people, must be able to answer this - though again, no-one on any of these threads has been able to answer my point yet:

So...

...on a late and cold May evening in Portugal...

....at between 9.15pm and 10.00pm...

...when it is already dark...

...and there isn't a great deal of street lighting...

1. What does a tourist look like?

and

2. What does a local look like?

I have challenged your suggestion as ridiculous.

By all means supply an answer to my question and try to convince me otherwise.

by russiandoll 07.11.13 23:09

Tony you are not being sarcastic in some of your recent posts but rude and offensive. I do not understand, when you have given no motive or credible explanation for why more than one member of a family, including a child would fabricate a sighting and according to another recent post of yours, could have lied about being in Kelly's bar beforehand.

How can you be so obnoxious to people giving an opinion about this just because it differs from your own?

Unadulterated rubbish you call these opinions. Are you trying to drive people away?

by logical 07.11.13 23:10

NFWTD

They Smiths Didn't fabricate anything, The highly respected Professional Profiler Pat Brown as recently as 2 weeks ago on her facebook page stated She Believes the Smith families Testimonies.

Goncalo Amaral is on record stating the Smiths were credible witnesses.

If we Have belief in Goncalo Amaral and Pat Brown both professionals and campaigning for justice for Madeleine then why do we speculate and fabricate things about the Smiths and for what reasons ?

by **Tony Bennett** 07.11.13 23:12

logical wrote:Tony

I would be most grateful if you could direct me to the first official release date of Tanners' witness description.

Thank you in advance.

Glad to help.

First, here is the Wikipedia entry on the subject:

Tanner report
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Artist's impression of the man Jane Tanner saw.^{[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]} Scotland Yard believe Tanner saw [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] carrying his daughter home.
One of the McCanns' travelling companions, Jane Tanner, left the restaurant to check on her own daughter. She passed Gerry on Rua Dr Francisco Gentil Martins on his way back to the restaurant from his 21:05 check; he was standing in the street chatting to a television producer he had met at the resort. At around 21:15 Tanner noticed a man cross the junction with Rua Dr Agostinho da Silva just ahead of her, heading away from the resort.^{[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]}
She said he was carrying a barefoot child who was wearing light-coloured pink pyjamas with a floral pattern and cuffs on the legs. She described the man as white, dark-haired, 1.70 m (5 ft 7 in) tall, of southern European or Mediterranean appearance, 35–40 years old, wearing gold or beige trousers and a dark jacket, and said he did not look like a tourist.^{[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]} Tanner passed the information to the Portuguese police, although the description was not given to the media until 25 May.^{[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]}

Second, it's important to note these points:

1. The statement was actually first released to the world's media by Dr Gerald McCann - before a battery of camera crews from around the world

2. The Portuguese Police only authorised this (and issued a description themselves) after Britain's then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Gordon Brown, pressurised the Portuguese judicial authorities to do so

3. Dr McCann's verbal statement contained no reference to the man 'not looking like a tourist', this was something known only to Jane Tanner, the PJ, and anyone who Jane told, or who otherwise learnt about what Jane ahd told the police.

4. I am not sure when we first learned that both Tanner and Smith had used this unusual description: 'didn't look like a tourist' - but probably not until the PJ released their DVD in August 2008.

by **Tony Bennett** 07.11.13 23:14

logical wrote:NFWTD

They Smiths Didn't fabricate anything, The highly respected Professional Profiler Pat Brown as recently as 2 weeks ago on her facebook page stated She Believes the Smith families Testimonies.

While, by contrast, Wendy Murphy declared: "It's a fake sighting".

I'm with Murphy on this, not Brown.

by Guest 07.11.13 23:14

Yes, I suggest everyone read Pat Browns latest blog of today!

by Guest 07.11.13 23:20

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I'm still very undecided on the value of the Smiths' testimony; they may be mistaken but I certainly would never accuse them of making it up.

by logical 07.11.13 23:27

Tony
I go to Spain regularly A tourist looking person to me can be a man wearing shorts ,beer belly white socks in sandals and many more discriptions.
A local normally wears long trousers looks native and wears appropriate clothing to suit any given weather.

As Ive mentioned my regular visits to Spain I can spot Most foreigners from locals any time of the year.

Martin Smith is a regular visitor to Portugal and going by my own experience Im sure he can spot the locals from foreigners also.

by MarleneP 07.11.13 23:27

I understand Tony Bennett. The Crime Watch program has changed everything for me. This case is full of mystery and I am surprised that there are writers who write there for years, but can still say:
a whole family (Smith) does not lie
but they are convinced that McCann family is lying and almost all tapas lie.
So it surprise me that someone writes: Tapas 9 may not have known at the dinner at the tapas bar that Madeleine was dead, that would be inhumane.
But they are convinced that Tapas 9 for years lie in public, raising money for a dead child, etc. - This I find inhumane.

by **Tony Bennett** 07.11.13 23:35

russiandoll wrote: Are you trying to drive people away?

It seems I am having precisely the opposite effect.

The 'Smithman' threads have proved exceptionally popular, bringing in a wave of new members only too anxious to insist that the Smiths really did see a bloke 'not looking like a tourist' and then capable of supplying DCI Redwood and his merry crew with not one but TWO efits of entirely different blokes whose face(s) they never saw in the dark.

I wonder why they've been so keen to join in the discussion?

by **Tony Bennett** 07.11.13 23:41

logical wrote:Tony

I go to Spain regularly.

A tourist looking person to me can be a man wearing shorts, beer belly, white socks in sandals and many more descriptions.

A local normally wears long trousers looks native and wears appropriate clothing to suit any given weather.

As I've mentioned...my regular visits to Spain...I can spot most foreigners from locals any time of the year.

Martin Smith is a regular visitor to Portugal and going by my own experience Im sure he can spot the locals from foreigners also.

Judging by what you've said above (highlighted), Smithman (if genuine), fits your description of 'local' much better than 'tourist'.

Because he wasn't wearing shorts, didn't have a beer belly, didn't have white socks and wasn't wearing sandals? (the four lead indicators you give for not looking like a tourist).

All we know about his clothing is: dark jacket and light-coloured trousers (two more 'coincidences' between Tannerman and Smithman).

Well, does that put him into the 'tourist' or 'non-tourist' category.

Honestly - do you not yet see how ridiculous the description 'not like a tourist' is?

What value does in have in assisting the police or the public to identify someone?

I will answer my own question.

None whatsoever.

Yet both Jane Tanner and Martin Smith use it.

by littlepixie 08.11.13 0:26

I haven't got a clue whether the Smiths are genuine or not. I don't know them, the McCanns or Robert Murat.
None of these people are our friends so there is nothing wrong with questioning their testimony when discrepancies or similarities occur.

by BRODFB 08.11.13 0:42

Tony Bennett wrote:
russiandoll wrote: Are you trying to drive people away?
It seems I am having precisely the opposite effect.

The 'Smithman' threads have proved exceptionally popular, bringing in a wave of new members only too anxious to insist that the Smiths really did see a bloke 'not looking like a tourist' and then capable of supplying DCI Redwood and his merry crew with not one but TWO efits of entirely different blokes whose face(s) they never saw in the dark.

I wonder why they've been so keen to join in the discussion?

So anyone who doesn't share your theory is a McCann supporter? aaaah

by Okeydokey 08.11.13 1:03

Tony Bennett wrote:
TheTruthWillOut wrote:Keeping things as simple as possible, a scenario (feel free to shoot it down in flames! ):

A male "Tapas" member decides they require a sighting and takes a child at around 10PM and bumps into the Smith family. Later after he gets back he either arranges the Tanner sighting or Tanner announces it to some members (whether invented or not) and he decides to use the Tanner sighting to debunk the Smith sighting.

Like I say.....probably full of holes, but I try.
Well, have you worked this one out in your scenario?

Your male 'Tapas' member, having bumped into the Smith family, to quote you: "either arranges the Tanner sighting or Tanner announces it to some members".

The next day, Tanner describes this man and tells the police: "He didn't look like a tourist" - a highly unusual and extremely vague description if ever there was one.

(Not one person on any of the 'Smithman' threads has yet been able to suggest what a tourist looks like and a non-tourist looks like on a cold dark evening in Praia da Luz).

Now, how does one account for the fact that, on 26 May, Smith uses an almost identical, unusual, vague description? - "He didn't look like a tourist".

I suggest four possibilities:

1) it was just a massive coincidence

2) there was a bloke wandering around the streets of Praia da Luz on a cold May evening in the dark carrying a blonde girl in pyjamas and barefoot who for some reason 'didn't look like a tourist'

3) there were TWO blokes wandering arouind the streets of Praia da Luz on a cold May evening in the dark carrying a blonde girl in pyjamas and barefoot who for some reason 'didn't look like tourists'

OR

4) the Smith family made the whole 'sighting' up and in doing so relied on knowledge of Jane Tanner's description.

Another possibility is that the Portugese ask that as a standard question of both Portugese and holidaymakers when investigating crimes. So you will get the answer either, yes or no.

by Okeydokey 08.11.13 1:09

I'm very torn on the Smiths sightings. Here's my take -

1. Eyewitness statements are notoriously unreliable.

2. The Smiths appear to have been through a number of phases: starting with a v vague ID; then after seeing TV pics of GMcC returning to the UK carrying one of his children (at the height of the time when they were suspected in the case) at least Mr Smith deciding it was 60-80% definite that GMcC was who they saw; and then - after visits from Team McCann, appearing to withdraw that ID. None of that inspires confidence.

3. On the other hand at least one of the sightings is rather a good match for GMcC and the timing etc does fit rather well with the "panic scenario". So I can't see how you can rule it out, especially as Team McCann were so reluctant to release the e fits and seem to have distorted the timing of the sighting.

by logical 08.11.13 1:30

Tony

The police asking witnesses, did your sighting look like a tourist or local is not a ridiculous question to ask imo

The interviewer was quite rightly trying to establish whether the man was a native or tourist.
I don't think it was meant to be a trick question and possibly Smith and Tanners non tourist response may just be to their immediate thoughts of the fact that the man carrying the child was not dressed in typical tourist attire.

As I've previously stated I have been a regular visitor to the same area in Spain for a number of years now and I know for a fact I can spot tourists from locals anytime of the year im there, including knowing locals to see, but not by name and quite capable of knowing that fellah was not that fellah if u get my Murat drift ? and I know from my own experience that Martin Smith who has been a regular visitor to Portugal for some years now would know whether Smithman was Murat or not. In my opinion Jane Tanner stating her made up sighting was a tourist was to further help Gerry McCann after having been seen by the Smith Family.

Smith and Tanners sightings are uncomplicated because Tanner knew what Gerry McCann was wearing that night and Smiths saw what Gerry Mccann was wearing that night = the same .

It was Peter Smith who mentioned his son (too young for statement) had mentioned a dark jacket and not Martin Smith.

Yes Tony your posts smearing the Smiths incited me to register to this forum to voice my opinion having browsed here for a number of years, but I have the greatest respect for you for all your other Trojan work, I just don't get you on your Smiths stance.

by chillyheat 08.11.13 1:35

Tanner - Murat........Murat - Smith
Then the messenger was no longer needed.......

But a source close to the McCanns said: "He is her son and most mothers would protect their children. Either she knows something or she is mistaken." From Robert Murat (3) file
Unbelievable case.......

by Cristobell 08.11.13 1:36

Tony Bennett wrote:
logical wrote:NFWTD

They Smiths Didn't fabricate anything, The highly respected Professional Profiler Pat Brown as recently as 2 weeks ago on her facebook page stated She Believes the Smith families Testimonies.
While, by contrast, Wendy Murphy declared: "It's a fake sighting".

I'm with Murphy on this, not Brown.

Wendy Murphy was not buying the circus that surrounds the investigation of this case Tony, she did not say anything about the Smith family sighting being fake.

by justathought 08.11.13 1:49

Okeydokey wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
TheTruthWillOut wrote:Keeping things as simple as possible, a scenario (feel free to shoot it down in flames! ):

A male "Tapas" member decides they require a sighting and takes a child at around 10PM and bumps into the Smith family. Later after he gets back he either arranges the Tanner sighting or Tanner announces it to some members (whether invented or not) and he decides to use the Tanner sighting to debunk the Smith sighting.

Like I say.....probably full of holes, but I try.
Well, have you worked this one out in your scenario?

Your male 'Tapas' member, having bumped into the Smith family, to quote you: "either arranges the Tanner sighting or Tanner announces it to some members".

The next day, Tanner describes this man and tells the police: "He didn't look like a tourist" - a highly unusual and extremely vague description if ever there was one.

(Not one person on any of the 'Smithman' threads has yet been able to suggest what a tourist looks like and a non-tourist looks like on a cold dark evening in Praia da Luz).

Now, how does one account for the fact that, on 26 May, Smith uses an almost identical, unusual, vague description? - "He didn't look like a tourist".

I suggest four possibilities:

1) it was just a massive coincidence

2) there was a bloke wandering around the streets of Praia da Luz on a cold May evening in the dark carrying a blonde girl in pyjamas and barefoot who for some reason 'didn't look like a tourist'

3) there were TWO blokes wandering arouind the streets of Praia da Luz on a cold May evening in the dark carrying a blonde girl in pyjamas and barefoot who for some reason 'didn't look like tourists'

OR

4) the Smith family made the whole 'sighting' up and in doing so relied on knowledge of Jane Tanner's description.

Another possibility is that the Portugese ask that as a standard question of both Portugese and holidaymakers when investigating crimes. So you will get the answer either, yes or no.

the question is not a bad one. if it is followed up with an answer.
next question is, what made you think it was a tourist or a local?
please expand?

by Joss 08.11.13 1:52

littlepixie wrote:I haven't got a clue whether the Smiths are genuine or not. I don't know them, the McCanns or Robert Murat.
None of these people are our friends so there is nothing wrong with questioning their testimony when discrepancies or similarities occur.

littlepixie, I agree. I think this is a case of "Question Everything" because of the circus this case became, and still ongoingly persists. And it is not unusual for people to doubt Witness testimony especially when there are so many inconsistensies with the players in any one case, especially a criminal case.
I followed the Trayvon Martin case in the U.S. and watched the livestream of the Trial. What a fiasco that Trial was, and in particular two Witnesses who were caught in lies, who should have been impeached but weren't, but that's another story. That whole case was absolutely disgusting.

by logical 08.11.13 1:56

3 or 4 members of the Smith family probably contributed to the efits, each individuals perceptions of what they remembered seeing likely different from each others , Is this the real reason for the two efits ? How many times have you thought Mr x is the image of Mr Y only for someone else to say no he doesn't look like him at all ?

by Cristobell 08.11.13 1:59

I really don't understand all the hullaballoo about the tourist question. The child was 'taken' from a holiday resort, would be astounded if that question wasn't asked.

by Cristobell 08.11.13 2:01

logical wrote:3 or 4 members of the Smith family probably contributed to the efits, each individuals perceptions of what they remembered seeing likely different from each others , Is this the real reason for the two efits ? How many times have you thought Mr x is the image of Mr Y only for someone else to say no he doesn't look like him at all ?

He walked through the middle of the group so they were split either side of him. They got different profiles - some saw left, some saw right.

by logical 08.11.13 2:11

That's what I was thinking too Cristobell. thumbup

by Joss 08.11.13 2:14

This is what M.Smith stated:
[color:c3b3=000000]Urged, he states that the individual did not appear to be a tourist. He cannot explain this further. It was simply his perception given the individual's clothing.

[color:c3b3=000000][color:c3b3=000000]And This:

Maple Drive man Martin Smith, his wife and his children had just left the Kelly bar, which is located approximately 400 metres from the McCanns' apartment at the Ocean Club between 9.50-10pm on the night Madeleine disappeared.

They returned to Ireland the next day, and because the reported abduction times didn't originally match, they never had cause to examine their journey that night.

As it emerged that Madeleine was abducted around the same time, one of the family members had a flashback of the moment some time later and encouraged the others to jog their memory.

They remembered passing a man walking towards the beach with a child in his arms.

Other than his approximate height and the fact that he was wearing beige clothes they cannot be more specific than that. 'We are annoyed at how vague our description is,' said the family member.
[color:c3b3=000000][You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[color:c3b3=000000][color:c3b3=000000]So as this reads the Smith sighting is very vague, but is taken as a very significant lead in the case[color:c3b3=000000], and the person from the Smith's e-fit picture has a face too when the Smith's couldn't even really describe him properly.
[color:c3b3=000000]Do they just make stuff up then?

by Joss 08.11.13 2:38

My take on all of this Witnesses etc., is that unless Portugal officially arrest and charge the McCann's with a felony and with an ensuing Trial for any culpability in their daughters disappearance and probable demise, all of it will just be a moot point anyhow. After 6+ years i wonder what the chances of the McC's ever being charged with a crime are to be likely? It would involve their extradition to Portugal. I'm very dubious of that ever happening.

The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?