The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

sami wrote:

Aoife Smith says

— Regarding the 3rd of May, 2007, she went, with all her family, to eat at the Dolphin restaurant, which is close to Kelly's Bar. When they left the restaurant, around 21H30, they headed toward Kelly's Bar. They stayed there for about 30 minutes. 
— Around 22H00, they left Kelly's Bar. The group headed, on foot, for their apartment. 

— Questioned, she responds that she knows the time that they left because her father and her brother decided to leave early that night. There were two reasons for this: one was the fact that her sister-in-law was not feeling very well and the other was because her brother, sister-in-law, nephew and son of her sister-in-law finished their holiday the next day and had to catch the morning flight returning to Ireland.

She is the only one who explains the timings in any detail, which is not much.

Three questions :

1.  Is it certain the till timing is correct

2.  Where did the issue of it being timed to a receipt come from - I don't recall seeing it in statements

3.  Is there any possibility the receipt is in the with-held part of the PJ files 

Just points 2 and 3 I remember it being mentioned maybe a few years ago and didn't think much of it, I assumed it was on the PJ files. But I haven't found this specific receipt they are said to have had. I think it was brought up again in a recent newspaper article. It would be strange if it was withheld.

Regarding the Smith's timings it seems to vary depending which member of the family has spoken and which paper they talk to. Mr Smith is quoted as saying had not spoken to the police since May 2007 when in fact one of the investigating officers spoke to him by phone in Sept 2007. So now Im not sure what to make of them.

soundworks wrote:how many adults were there?

9_50.     8 euros.       4 pints?


5 mins to pay bill / get change / leave bar hence the 9_55 sighting?

I think the children wouldn't have had a drink so late as when my kids were younger they didn't have a drink after 8pm due to getting up to go to the toilet etc

That may all be true - but where's the receipt as proof that you were in the bar? That's all I'm questioning, whether this receipt ever existed or not.

yea agree 100% there's no proof whatsoever

shame he didn't pay with credit card etc

soundworks wrote:yea agree 100% there's no proof whatsoever

shame he didn't pay with credit card etc

And save us a lot of head scratching

Martin smith may have been 'advised' not to admit to helping create the photo fit as te mccanns probably decided as soon as they saw it that it would never see the light of day

SixMillionQuid wrote:

soundworks wrote:how many adults were there?

9_50.     8 euros.       4 pints?


5 mins to pay bill / get change / leave bar hence the 9_55 sighting?

I think the children wouldn't have had a drink so late as when my kids were younger they didn't have a drink after 8pm due to getting up to go to the toilet etc

That may all be true - but where's the receipt as proof that you were in the bar? That's all I'm questioning, whether this receipt ever existed or not.

This receipt may exist or it may not, there is a substantial amount of information that was not released on the DVD of the PJ Files.

I think we need to keep reminding ourselves of this, as we are wracking our brains over only PART of the information gathered. The PJ files as we know them are NOT the whole, definitive picture, PLUS the Leicestershire police DID NOT make their files public.

When pondering this case and the details, I try and keep this firmly in mind when something doesn't quite fit. ALL of our ponderings are based on only having PART of the material, so we will unlikely be able to construct a complete picture no matter hard we try.

well said smoke and mirrors,so much trying to puzzle the times out is making us feel cranky . as said the till receipts would if mine go straight in bin or pockets and washed in machine.not sure why we feel they will be neededand why anyone would collect a lot of odd drinks receipts .  I have been many times to Portugal ,a few years back a lot didn't have machines and give receipts,just totted it up and you pay . I am not saying that is not needed to work things out if we can ,but as we don't have all info. we are kicking a dead horse.Mrs smith I believe had given a statement to police at the start and I think she said at a 2nd time ,she could not add anything else to it .,so left her first oneas it was. joyce1938

Smokeandmirrors wrote:

SixMillionQuid wrote:

soundworks wrote:how many adults were there?

9_50.     8 euros.       4 pints?


5 mins to pay bill / get change / leave bar hence the 9_55 sighting?

I think the children wouldn't have had a drink so late as when my kids were younger they didn't have a drink after 8pm due to getting up to go to the toilet etc

That may all be true - but where's the receipt as proof that you were in the bar? That's all I'm questioning, whether this receipt ever existed or not.

This receipt may exist or it may not, there is a substantial amount of information that was not released on the DVD of the PJ Files.

I think we need to keep reminding ourselves of this, as we are wracking our brains over only PART of the information gathered. The PJ files as we know them are NOT the whole, definitive picture, PLUS the Leicestershire police DID NOT make their files public.

When pondering this case and the details, I try and keep this firmly in mind when something doesn't quite fit. ALL of our ponderings are based on only having PART of the material, so we will unlikely be able to construct a complete picture no matter hard we try.

That's very true.  The PJ at the time concluded that Gerry had an alibi for the time when the Smith's spotted the man, that dozens of people could vouch for his whereabouts at that time.  You certainly can't really ascertain his whereabouts from the information we have available so presumably they have witness statements we haven't seen?

Bars in Portugal don't operate with the same system as pubs in the UK. Here it is normally a waiter who comes to take your order and only, when you ask to pay is the tally made in the cash register with the respective date and time. I'm not sure about English pubs in Portugal but I suppose they operate in the same way as other Portuguese establishments. It is a mistake to analyse situations based on the English customs and ways when the crime took place in Portugal.

galena wrote:

Smokeandmirrors wrote:

SixMillionQuid wrote:

soundworks wrote:how many adults were there?

9_50.     8 euros.       4 pints?


5 mins to pay bill / get change / leave bar hence the 9_55 sighting?

I think the children wouldn't have had a drink so late as when my kids were younger they didn't have a drink after 8pm due to getting up to go to the toilet etc

That may all be true - but where's the receipt as proof that you were in the bar? That's all I'm questioning, whether this receipt ever existed or not.

This receipt may exist or it may not, there is a substantial amount of information that was not released on the DVD of the PJ Files.

I think we need to keep reminding ourselves of this, as we are wracking our brains over only PART of the information gathered. The PJ files as we know them are NOT the whole, definitive picture, PLUS the Leicestershire police DID NOT make their files public.

When pondering this case and the details, I try and keep this firmly in mind when something doesn't quite fit. ALL of our ponderings are based on only having PART of the material, so we will unlikely be able to construct a complete picture no matter hard we try.

That's very true.  The PJ at the time concluded that Gerry had an alibi for the time when the Smith's spotted the man, that dozens of people could vouch for his whereabouts at that time.  You certainly can't really ascertain his whereabouts from the information we have available so presumably they have witness statements we haven't seen?

The only witnesses who confirmed Gerry's presence at the Tapas were the Tapas 7, no independent witnesses could confirm or deny.

galena wrote:That's very true.  The PJ at the time concluded that Gerry had an alibi for the time when the Smith's spotted the man, that dozens of people could vouch for his whereabouts at that time.  You certainly can't really ascertain his whereabouts from the information we have available so presumably they have witness statements we haven't seen?

Galena - can you give a reference for the dozens (that`s over 24) of people that vouched for his whereabouts and whether they were independent of the T7?

noddy100 wrote:Martin smith may have been 'advised' not to admit to helping create the photo fit as te mccanns probably decided as soon as they saw it that it would never see the light of day

Agree with you there Noddy100

@Mirage.

Thanks for your OP about the till receipt.

Glad to hear that you are posting now and are over your illness.  

Just to add that I have read and agreed with a lot of your posts, but can't keep posting I agree, I agree.  lol.  Re the point
Joyce made about keeping till receipts from holiday.

Why would anybody keep a till receipt if paid in cash?   I would keep a receipt if made with a credit card, but put a cash one in the bin on the way out or make a tear in the top of it to show it's been paid and leave it on the table?

Edited to add some words second para.

plebgate wrote:@Mirage.

Thanks for your OP about the till receipt.

Glad to hear that you are posting now and are over your illness.  

Just to add that I have read and agreed with a lot of your posts, but can't keep posting I agree, I agree.  lol.  Re the point
Joyce made about keeping till receipts from holiday.

Why would anybody keep a till receipt if paid in cash?   I would keep a receipt if made with a credit card, but put a cash one in the bin on the way out or make a tear in the top of it to show it's been paid and leave it on the table?

Edited to add some words second para.

I don't bother keeping receipts for stuff like drinks bills, even if I pay via credit/debit card.  I'm not running a business, they have no use to me and I don't need lots of paper lying around.  I suspect this is fairly common behaviour.

Where they his receipts or did the PJ get them from the bar? I thought it was the latter.

candyfloss wrote:Where they his receipts or did the PJ get them from the bar?  I thought it was the latter.  

The PJ got the bar receipts.  I was under the impression people were discussing why Smith didn't keep his receipt.

Sockpuppet wrote:

candyfloss wrote:Where they his receipts or did the PJ get them from the bar?  I thought it was the latter.  

The PJ got the bar receipts.  I was under the impression people were discussing why Smith didn't keep his receipt.

Ok, thanks.

Woofer wrote:

galena wrote:That's very true.  The PJ at the time concluded that Gerry had an alibi for the time when the Smith's spotted the man, that dozens of people could vouch for his whereabouts at that time.  You certainly can't really ascertain his whereabouts from the information we have available so presumably they have witness statements we haven't seen?

Galena - can you give a reference for the dozens (that`s over 24) of people that vouched for his whereabouts and whether they were independent of the T7?

Hi Woofer. I think I read that in the Mccannfiles that at the original time of the sighting the PJ didn't believe it could really be Gerry that Martin Smith saw because 'dozens of witnesses' placed him in the Tapas area at the time. I don't have time now but I will look up the exact reference when I get home.

@ Plebgate
Thank you for your kind words. Yes, I'm on the road to recovery thank you - three wheels on my wagon and I'm still rollin' along!

I know how responsive you have been personally and really do appreciate it, Plebgate. I certainly wouldn't expect responses from anyone much of the time - the thread needs to keep focused and there's little point posting 'I agree', as you say: it only bumps unnecessary stuff. However, I will confess to feeling miffed about being ignored on the bill receipt, not out of any vanity you understand, but purely because I thought it was so important.

I know there has been fierce debate of the Smith statements. I sense that people are weary of the whole case -I know I am. It is also a major downer to discover that our society is even more corrupt than we thought. I think it is maybe for this reason that the forum has been a little scratchy in the last few days. That is my impression anyway. However, it is of paramount importance that ALL statements are subjected to the "forum microscope" with equal vigour!

Apart from the bill receipt there are other anomalies in the Smith statements that don't sit well with me. There is a huge temptation, I am sure, to WANT to believe this sighting. I quite understand that it has given the outside world a jolt, what with those e-fits that have been widely commented on as looking like GM. However, I feel it would be a mistake to forget the Machiavellian twists and turns that characterise this case. We know/sense dark powers at work and there is every chance that we could be led up the proverbial garden path in the eleventh hour with no way back.

Whilst on the subject, the bill is not the only area that concerns me.

 When something strikes you and lingers in the mind, it should not be ignored IMO. If, for example, I went to the police and reported a sighting of something suspicious in relation to a known crime, I would expect my statement to be taken in a formal way and sent off to the relevant force. What I would not expect, would be an appraisal of my respected character and standing in the community to accompany that statement. This colours the statement and lends unaccountable weight to someone else's testimony. IMO, that is overstepping the mark.

Well, that's me tuppence worth for now. Thanks again Plebgate.

candyfloss wrote:

Sockpuppet wrote:

candyfloss wrote:Where they his receipts or did the PJ get them from the bar?  I thought it was the latter.  

The PJ got the bar receipts.  I was under the impression people were discussing why Smith didn't keep his receipt.

Ok, thanks.

The receipts the PJ obtained several months later, appear to be generated from the records of transactions in cash registers.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

All the available documentation was requested concerning the expenses in the bar on the night of 3rd May 2007 as we were given the cash register from which photocopies were made referring to the period between 20.00 and 24.00, which is annexed to this report.

Signed

Ricardo Paiva

Annexes

And when looking this series of entries
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

one transaction was at 21:50 and the next at 22:16. So if the Smith's had a receipt for 21:55, whether its the final bill or not it should show up between these two times. So if the PJ witheld this info from the released files then how did they erase the entry from this printout and why? Surely by keeping it in the above printout it would go some way to prove the Smiths were right about their timings.

@ Mirage

I hear what you say. I took the circumstances Smiths sightings as the absolute truth and never questioned them at all. It's only recently that I bothered to look at their statements properly and then what they've said in the papers that's left me scratching my head more than usual.

Before going into timing, I'd like to know [because I've never been in Portugal], if maybe the general practice in bars is like in Italy: You go to the cashier, tell them what you want, pay, get a receipt, then proceed to the bar, show your ticket and get your drinks. Anyone know?

hi chatalin cant spell your name sorry , I have been visiting Portugal trice a year for 7 years,last time 3 qweeks ago we got back after 10 days   we have the odd meal out and the odd bar drinks some days . usually if we are sat outside table ,out comes bar staff and asks what you want ,then it comes to table and we might eat a small snack in a little while ,we might have another drink be it coffee tea or wine ,then when we are ready to leave we ask for bill .now adays it will be a till slip maybe ,7 years ago we often were told price and payed it .no receipt .I think itcan possably be just cash in hand especially in countryside ,who could blame them ,so little money to be made on couple drinks . hope this helps . joyce1938

Thank you, Joyce :-)
Yes, cash in hand is a possibility too ...
But IF there's a till receipt, it would be interesting to know, if one pays upfront or when leaving after the drinks.

hI Chatelin,we have usually had to ask for till receipt ,they prefer to leave it so you may want to have another,I cant really recall paying for it upfront at all .If some were kids I cant see them having another drink ,not like adults might,so if a 2nd round was had it would only be about ,well if a small beer 1euroeach maybe be more if spirits .joyce1938

SixMillionQuid wrote:The receipts the PJ obtained several months later, appear to be generated from the records of transactions in cash registers.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

All the available documentation was requested concerning the expenses in the bar on the night of 3rd May 2007 as we were given the cash register from which photocopies were made referring to the period between 20.00 and 24.00, which is annexed to this report.

Signed

Ricardo Paiva

Annexes

And when looking this series of entries
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

one transaction was at 21:50 and the next at 22:16. So if the Smith's had a receipt for 21:55, whether its the final bill or not it should show up between these two times. So if the PJ witheld this info from the released files then how did they erase the entry from this printout and why? Surely by keeping it in the above printout it would go some way to prove the Smiths were right about their timings.

Who has said that the Smiths had a receipt for 21:55?  Apart from people on forums.

If they  had transaction 21 50,its likely the rest was outside and one payed bill and off they went ,it takes no time at all to do that,especially as some wanted to be home soon early morning flight,only my thoughts on thati can imagine it after not long back from Portugal and being amongst it all I go to Tavira by the way ,never felt I could visit luz but passed by it . joyce1938

Sockpuppet wrote:

SixMillionQuid wrote:The receipts the PJ obtained several months later, appear to be generated from the records of transactions in cash registers.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

All the available documentation was requested concerning the expenses in the bar on the night of 3rd May 2007 as we were given the cash register from which photocopies were made referring to the period between 20.00 and 24.00, which is annexed to this report.

Signed

Ricardo Paiva

Annexes

And when looking this series of entries
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

one transaction was at 21:50 and the next at 22:16. So if the Smith's had a receipt for 21:55, whether its the final bill or not it should show up between these two times. So if the PJ witheld this info from the released files then how did they erase the entry from this printout and why? Surely by keeping it in the above printout it would go some way to prove the Smiths were right about their timings.

Who has said that the Smiths had a receipt for 21:55?  Apart from people on forums.

No where else but a forum that I wont mention.

SixMillionQuid wrote:

candyfloss wrote:

Sockpuppet wrote:

candyfloss wrote:Where they his receipts or did the PJ get them from the bar?  I thought it was the latter.  

The PJ got the bar receipts.  I was under the impression people were discussing why Smith didn't keep his receipt.

Ok, thanks.

The receipts the PJ obtained several months later, appear to be generated from the records of transactions in cash registers.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

All the available documentation was requested concerning the expenses in the bar on the night of 3rd May 2007 as we were given the cash register from which photocopies were made referring to the period between 20.00 and 24.00, which is annexed to this report.

Signed

Ricardo Paiva

Annexes

And when looking this series of entries
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

one transaction was at 21:50 and the next at 22:16. So if the Smith's had a receipt for 21:55, whether its the final bill or not it should show up between these two times. So if the PJ witheld this info from the released files then how did they erase the entry from this printout and why? Surely by keeping it in the above printout it would go some way to prove the Smiths were right about their timings.

The till transactions are numbered, so I don't think any have been hidden. There are about four transactions that could have been theirs. It would be quite normal if they paid ten minutes before they departed.

sixmillionquid

What have the Smiths said in the papers?

The Smiths statements havnt changed from day one apart from the additional statement Martin Smith made in January 2008  that is according to the Maddie Case files as far as I know.

No one here has answered a question I raised earlier i.e if you take time to read the official pj files in Maddies case files regarding all the Smiths statements and take into account the FACT that Goncalo Amaral and Pat Brown have never doubted the Smiths statements then why Cant genuine supportors  for Justice for Madeleine here accept the statements for what they are i.e Real Honest and Genuine statements from independent Honest witnesses.

If posters posts are carefully read on this forum its not too hard to seperate the Genuines from the ungenuines iMo.