Oscar Pistorius

I believe the court had no option but to grant bail. It's already been stated the case may not come to trial for a year. The investigative work of the SA police is in question and last but by no means least OP needs to be kept alive/unharmed to attend his trial. Google SA prisons.

The fact that OP is a high-profile sportsman works for him and against him. In prison on remand he might be raped/stabbed/murdered as a 'trophy' before being found innocent/guilty by a court. The South African prison system could not imo guarantee his safety and the whole world's media is watching. Dewani's defence team and the UK government will be watching too. As a fairly wealthy person OP is able to meet bail financially. As he has no legs and is easily recognisable it would be difficult to flee (not impossible) but the ramifications for his family would be terrible if he were to disappear. It is unlikely he will place his own family at risk from such a backlash.

Keep him alive, let the police and forensics do their job, let his defence prepare and bring him to trial in the correct manner. His family have the onerous task of ensuring he doesn't commit suicide.

Just my opinion.

I got a very nasty picture in my head, when read this morning that his girlfriend at 3am was in the WC with the door locked and had her cellphone with her ...

The details of events will become apparent in court at the trial. It is the duty of the police, forensics and prosecution to do their utmost to present unquestionable/compelling evidence to secure justice for Reeva Steenkamp and her family. It is for those people to secure a water-tight conviction.

Reeva's family have shown dignity in their grief. They are not the people baying for a quick fix.

Never under estimate the goodness of an Afrikaans family. They are the backbone of South Africa imo and both families are doing what is best in the circumstances. Both families are at a loss. It's sad.

Not sure he was `sleeping with the balcony doors open` - he went out there to get the fan so would have opened them first, got the fan, then closed them again. It was dark so he wouldn`t necessarily see his girlfriend had left the bed while he was getting the fan in.

He did shout to her to get the police when he was in the corridor.

I don`t think we can reason what we would do in a South African environment unless we have lived there - our reactions would be totally different living in such a threatening country.

There would be 4 shots fired if he was shooting the handle or lock off - doesn`t necessarily mean he was shooting at a person.

[quote="Woofer"]Not sure he was `sleeping with the balcony doors open` - he went out there to get the fan so would have opened them first, got the fan, then closed them again. It was dark so he wouldn`t necessarily see his girlfriend had left the bed while he was getting the fan in.

He did shout to her to get the police when he was in the corridor.

I don`t think we can reason what we would do in a South African environment unless we have lived there - our reactions would be totally different living in such a threatening country.

There would be 4 shots fired if he was shooting the handle or lock off - doesn`t necessarily mean he was shooting at a person.[/quote. Pitch black yet he could locate the socket to plug it in.

I'm surprised it was so dark as the estate has street lighting. This wasn't a few select homes with huge space between them, this was dense, safety in numbers sort of place. here's the plan.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I heard earlier on the news that Reeva's parents are going to set up a Trust for battered women.

Bob Southgate wrote:

Inspectorfrost wrote:justification? Wait for police? Youre having a laugh, he thought his gfs and his life was in danger, we are talking about south africa here where you can get macheted in seconds, and he had had death threats too, he also was a panicked man with no legs,he went to a cost the burglar he shouted to his gf to call while he went to do this, you cant do two things at once, all the evidence points to a tragedy and not a cold KILLING JMO I could be wrong

The evidence points to a dead person who was shot several times. I note you are being selective with what I said. I said that OP could have withdrawn from the house and called police and estate security. He did not do that but chose to shoot first and ask questions later. It might not have been a premeditated murder but the signs are there that there was a high degree of negligence which resulted in a death that could have been avoided.

But that is what people in SA do because you could be shot in seconds yourself, it will come out in the wash

Horrified family told Pistorius 'DID beat Reeva with cricket bat' as they are shown her extensive head injuries

Read more: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Inspectorfrost wrote:

Bob Southgate wrote:

Inspectorfrost wrote:justification? Wait for police? Youre having a laugh, he thought his gfs and his life was in danger, we are talking about south africa here where you can get macheted in seconds, and he had had death threats too, he also was a panicked man with no legs,he went to a cost the burglar he shouted to his gf to call while he went to do this, you cant do two things at once, all the evidence points to a tragedy and not a cold KILLING JMO I could be wrong

The evidence points to a dead person who was shot several times. I note you are being selective with what I said. I said that OP could have withdrawn from the house and called police and estate security. He did not do that but chose to shoot first and ask questions later. It might not have been a premeditated murder but the signs are there that there was a high degree of negligence which resulted in a death that could have been avoided.

But that is what people in SA do because you could be shot in seconds yourself, it will come out in the wash

Do they? When someone is in an apparantly locked room they shoot first without making any apparant attempt to determine there is actually an intruder in the house? Yet the murder rate in South Africa has fallen by over 50% between 1994 and 2011 from 67 per 100000 of the population to 32. WHich is still considerably higher than in most european countries but nonetheless still a significant reduction.

Woofer wrote:

There would be 4 shots fired if he was shooting the handle or lock off - doesn`t necessarily mean he was shooting at a person.

The Police would be able to tell where he aimed the shots at from crime scene evidence.

So he hears a noise in the the master bedroom ensuit bathroom, suspects an intruder, and the first thing he did is shoot the handle or lock off thereby endangering himself and his G/F further, risking the intruder rushing out in panic with his weapon and shooting them both ? err...I dont think so.

Let's just say his stories do not add up and full of holes like colander.

His bed room is upstairs. So where was the point of entry?
Say if the burglar were to look into the master bedroom, finds it occupied, he's more likely to rush back downstairs and try to run away rather than proceeds into the bathroom to hide. All these may be besides the point. What the Police will be looking at is the exact location she was found and whether the shots through the door were aimed directly in her direction. That would have hugh implication as to OS knew exactly where to aim at even though it was pitch dark.

Ironically because of his fame, his money will afford him the best lawyers, and the best PR to spin. OJ all over again.

He is safer outside than in prison. His legs or lack of is not going to be a deterrent if he sets his mind to abscond.
He looks petty normal when his legs are fixed on and he's covered up in right attire and can go about doing things in a normal way more or less in the same manner like able bodied people do. Take his appearance in Court for example, dressed up in suits, who would have suspected he's handicapped if this was not reported in the Papers and Media. People who do not follow sports would not have heard or known of him. I have not known about him until this incident, and just by looking at his appearance in Court I would not have suspected he is handicapped.

sallypelt wrote:Horrified family told Pistorius 'DID beat Reeva with cricket bat' as they are shown her extensive head injuries

Read more: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Hi sallypelt,

Thanks for posting this link. I'm still of the opinion that it was much better to grant bail to OP. This case will not go away. It's a showcase for the South African police et al to demonstrate their ability to investigate, prosecute and secure a conviction. This is the only way true justice will be found for Reeva Steenkamp and her family imo.

If OP had been denied bail that would give the defence feathers to line their nest with. This way, there can be no excuses for poor treatment, mental health/physical issues 'caused' by incarceration whilst awaiting trial. Nothing to muddy the water in that respect.

@Bob Southgate - if you believe the stats for gun crime in South Africa to be accurate then you are a far more optimistic person than I am. This beautiful country (I miss it very much) is a hell-hole of horrendous violent crime, beyond the imagination of day-to-day living in UK. It doesn't matter much if stats 'show' crime has dropped by a percent or two, there is a constant fear of guns - I've been on the pointy end of three guns btw - those figures whether true or manufactured can't alter the fear and reality of living in a violent country.

Reeva Steenkamp's short life and violent death may well be a shining beacon to expose South Africa's total inability to deal with crimes against women. For anyone with the stomach, look up rape statistics in South Africa...you'll find disembowelment.

Sorry if I've put anyone of their cornflakes this morning.

24 February 2013 Last updated at 07:36





Oscar Pistorius brother Carl also facing homicide trial




The brother of South African athlete Oscar Pistorius - accused of murdering his girlfriend - is also facing trial over the death of a woman.

Carl Pistorius is charged with culpable homicide over the death of a woman motorcyclist in a traffic accident, his lawyer said.



More on link...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

They have the same solicitor !

aquila wrote:

sallypelt wrote:Horrified family told Pistorius 'DID beat Reeva with cricket bat' as they are shown her extensive head injuries

Read more: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Hi sallypelt,

Thanks for posting this link. I'm still of the opinion that it was much better to grant bail to OP. This case will not go away. It's a showcase for the South African police et al to demonstrate their ability to investigate, prosecute and secure a conviction. This is the only way true justice will be found for Reeva Steenkamp and her family imo.

If OP had been denied bail that would give the defence feathers to line their nest with. This way, there can be no excuses for poor treatment, mental health/physical issues 'caused' by incarceration whilst awaiting trial. Nothing to muddy the water in that respect.

@Bob Southgate - if you believe the stats for gun crime in South Africa to be accurate then you are a far more optimistic person than I am. This beautiful country (I miss it very much) is a hell-hole of horrendous violent crime, beyond the imagination of day-to-day living in UK. It doesn't matter much if stats 'show' crime has dropped by a percent or two, there is a constant fear of guns - I've been on the pointy end of three guns btw - those figures whether true or manufactured can't alter the fear and reality of living in a violent country.

Reeva Steenkamp's short life and violent death may well be a shining beacon to expose South Africa's total inability to deal with crimes against women. For anyone with the stomach, look up rape statistics in South Africa...you'll find disembowelment.

Sorry if I've put anyone of their cornflakes this morning.

hi aquila, I agree with you.
I spent a short time in SA, witnessed more than enough to get frightened and fearful for my life. It's possibly a beautiful country geographically, but the underlying menace is tangible and the overt threats are so worrying that I left the place just as soon as I could get on the next plane to do so. Three men huddling round the back of a car, putting a dead body into the boot, closing it and driving off. These were all whites, by the way. Nothing reported to the police, blind eyes being turned, police too. All 'known' but 'not known'.
There is a lot that is squarely unwholesome there, and we Brits in the UK cannot imagine a people having an attitude (regarding what we would consider fearful culpable crime) which is almost accepting of the violent status quo.
I am not commenting on the Oscar Pistorius thread, simply because the actual level of violence, in SA, men to men, men to women, women to children, etc. is so deranged when compared with what western European norms would tolerate. We just can't use our norms as a measure of what is going on over there. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

aquila wrote:@Bob Southgate - if you believe the stats for gun crime in South Africa to be accurate then you are a far more optimistic person than I am. This beautiful country (I miss it very much) is a hell-hole of horrendous violent crime, beyond the imagination of day-to-day living in UK. It doesn't matter much if stats 'show' crime has dropped by a percent or two, there is a constant fear of guns - I've been on the pointy end of three guns btw - those figures whether true or manufactured can't alter the fear and reality of living in a violent country.

Reeva Steenkamp's short life and violent death may well be a shining beacon to expose South Africa's total inability to deal with crimes against women. For anyone with the stomach, look up rape statistics in South Africa...you'll find disembowelment.

Sorry if I've put anyone of their cornflakes this morning.

I haven't quoted any statistics relating to gun crime, just the murder statistics, which is entirely different. And while there is scepticism about some of the crime figures in SA the murder stats are believed to be accurate. The fact remains that while the muder rate is still very high it has halved between 1994 and 2011.

sallypelt wrote:Horrified family told Pistorius 'DID beat Reeva with cricket bat' as they are shown her extensive head injuries

Read more: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

See page 27 point 44. That doesn't back the Mail story up. No wounds apart from those from the bullets.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The police may have said this to the family, I don't know, but the Mail is saying the relatives also have said it on seeing the body before the funeral. Right now, clear as mud.

Trying to understand the part in bold here.

During the early morning hours of 14 February 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and closed the sliding doors, the blinds and the curtains. I heard a noise in the bathroom and realised that someone was in the bathroom.
I felt a sense of terror rushing over me. There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew that contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside. Although I did not have my prosthetic legs on I have mobility on my stumps.
I believed that someone had entered my house. I was too scared to switch a light on.
I grabbed my 9mm pistol from underneath my bed. On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police. It was pitch dark in the bedroom and I thought Reeva was in bed.
I noticed that the bathroom window was open. I realised that the intruder/s was/were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom. I heard movement inside the toilet. The toilet is inside the bathroom and has a separate door.
It filled me with horror and fear of an intruder or intruders being inside the toilet. I thought he or they must have entered through the unprotected window. As I did not have my prosthetic legs on and felt extremely vulnerable, I knew I had to protect Reeva and myself. I believed that when the intruder/s came out of the toilet we would be in grave danger. I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps.
I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to phone the police. She did not respond and I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance. Everything was pitch dark in the bedroom and I was still too scared to switch on a light. Reeva was not responding.
When I reached the bed, I realised that Reeva was not in bed. That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet. I returned to the bathroom calling her name. I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked. I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help.
I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open. I think I must then have turned on the lights. I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door. Reeva was slumped over but alive.
I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom. I phoned Johan Stander ("Stander") who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance. I phoned Netcare and asked for help. I went downstairs to open the front door.
I returned to the bathroom and picked Reeva up as I had been told not to wait for the paramedics, but to take her to hospital. I carried her downstairs in order to take her to the hospital. On my way down Stander arrived. A doctor who lives in the complex also arrived. Downstairs, I tried to render the assistance to Reeva that I could, but she died in my arms.

@Bob, you make a point about reduced murder rates, your argument is strengthened by the fact that the house was in a secure gated complex with electrified fences and security guards patrolling. That doesn't necessarily mean someone who has been burgled and attacked and received death threats in the past would feel totally safe.

@Aiyoyo

His bed room is upstairs. So where was the point of entry?

Apparently he found the bathroom window open and mention is made of workers at his house leaving a step ladder under it. So presumably another window that could be opened from outside if not locked. I haven't read it was broken into anywhere.

If he did do it, knowingly I mean, I don't think it was premeditated but as part of a bad argument.

Inspectorfrost wrote:@Bob, you make a point about reduced murder rates, your argument is strengthened by the fact that the house was in a secure gated complex with electrified fences and security guards patrolling. That doesn't necessarily mean someone who has been burgled and attacked and received death threats in the past would feel totally safe.

@Aiyoyo

His bed room is upstairs. So where was the point of entry?

Apparently he found the bathroom window open and mention is made of workers at his house leaving a step ladder under it. So presumably another window that could be opened from outside if not locked. I haven't read it was broken into anywhere.

If he did do it, knowingly I mean, I don't think it was premeditated but as part of a bad argument.

IIRC he mentioned work at the house and contractor may have left a ladder around. I dont remember reading reports stating bathroom windows were left open. IMO he was staging the scene when he mentioned the ladder.
How can he see whether the bathroom window was open or not when the bathroom door was locked that he'd to shoot through it?

Just for sake of argument - which would be easier or rather more common? For an intruder to break through say a backdoor downstairs and enter from there or climb up a ladder? Hypothetically, say if the intruder were to climb up the ladder what is the chance of the intruder choosing the bathroom as point of entry rather than say balcony?

From Stats how common is it for burglar to gain access into the premises by entering from master bedroom ensuite bathroom?
If he'd heard noise in the house in an unknown area and thought it was an intruder and he took out his gun and shoot into a vacant space to warn off the intruder it would make more sense. When he'd heard a noise from his ensuite bathroom and he didn't check first to see whether his partner was still in bed or had gone to use the bathroom before he fired not ONE but FOUR shots it does not add up.
I think they had an argument and he got violent so she went into the bedroom with her cellphone meaning to call someone to come and get her. Maybe he yelled her to come out, she refused plus maybe she threatened to tell someone he was battling her, so he got more angry and in a fist of anger shoot her.

I want to know how he's going to explain why his g/f whom he thought was in bed did not scream out from fright after he'd fired the first shot? He was shooting as if an execution - not one, not two, but FOUR shots - would anyone in their right mind do that to even an intruder in a closely confined space (which a bathroom is) knowing that the chances of killing that person inside are very high when you fire 4 times? We are not talking firing into open space but a small enclosed space.
I also would be interested to know whether forensics expert will be able to determine the order of the shots as is was she hit in the head first or abdomen?

Aiyoyo - "How can he see whether the bathroom window was open or not when the bathroom door was locked that he'd to shoot through it?"

Apparently the bathroom is off the bedroom and the toilet is off the bathroom - 3 separate rooms - an ensuite bathroom with a separate toilet. So he could have seen into the bathroom and noticed the bathroom window open but not yet into the toilet where RS was.

Woofer wrote:Aiyoyo - "How can he see whether the bathroom window was open or not when the bathroom door was locked that he'd to shoot through it?"

Apparently the bathroom is off the bedroom and the toilet is off the bathroom - 3 separate rooms - an ensuite bathroom with a separate toilet. So he could have seen into the bathroom and noticed the bathroom window open but not yet into the toilet where RS was.

***
with her mobile phone behind a locked door ...

Châtelaine wrote:

Woofer wrote:Aiyoyo - "How can he see whether the bathroom window was open or not when the bathroom door was locked that he'd to shoot through it?"

Apparently the bathroom is off the bedroom and the toilet is off the bathroom - 3 separate rooms - an ensuite bathroom with a separate toilet. So he could have seen into the bathroom and noticed the bathroom window open but not yet into the toilet where RS was.

***
with her mobile phone behind a locked door ...

Quite ! One doesn`t normally take one`s mobile phone into the loo when just going for a quick pee unless .....

Be interesting to know if she tried to make any calls.

From what I understood of looking at a model of the room arrangements, it seemed to me that the bathroom with separate toilet off it was some distance from the main bedroom. Perhaps there was also an en suite but if she was fleeing her attacker she might have chosen the other, perhaps trying to hide? perhaps she opened the bathroom window in an attempt to escape and thought better of it?

Room plan shown, have to scroll down

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The plan and the drawing in the daily mail article do not match. The location of the toilet is shown directly facing the door in one and it is shown to be on the left hand wall on the architectural drawing.

Woofer wrote:Aiyoyo - "How can he see whether the bathroom window was open or not when the bathroom door was locked that he'd to shoot through it?"

Apparently the bathroom is off the bedroom and the toilet is off the bathroom - 3 separate rooms - an ensuite bathroom with a separate toilet. So he could have seen into the bathroom and noticed the bathroom window open but not yet into the toilet where RS was.

He said he couldn't see anything because it was pitch dark.
Surely if he could see bathroom's windows were open, then it would mean the bathroom door was not locked and there must be some light beaming through from the outside, then it couldn't have been pitch dark.

One wonders how big must the toilet cubicle be because he was talking in plural ie the possibility of him or them hiding in there?

This story about an intruder or intruders hiding in an inner cubicle (ie toilet) within a bathroom with a separate door is even more ludicrous as what sort of intruder having got in through the bathroom window only to hide in the toilet cubicle? There is only toilet roll in there to steal.
And you would not think intruder would bother to lock the toilet door stupidly trapping himself in there with no way to escape.

Aiyoyo - even if its dark, one can still see if a window is open as you get the light from outside.

I think he said the `toilet` door was locked, not the bathroom. Maybe it was reported as the bathroom - I think there has been some mix-up from the beginning when it was not known that the toilet was off the bathroom.

What clinches it for me is that she had her phone with her in the toilet (if this is actually true) - we shall have to wait an see what evidence is produced by the police and whether the judge believes them.

sami wrote:The plan and the drawing in the daily mail article do not match. The location of the toilet is shown directly facing the door in one and it is shown to be on the left hand wall on the architectural drawing.

You`re right sami. I wonder who drew up the `Oscar`s Account` picture. Of course we don`t know the source for the architects plan and if it is actually the same apartment.

Woofer wrote: [...]
What clinches it for me is that she had her phone with her in the toilet (if this is actually true) - we shall have to wait an see what evidence is produced by the police and whether the judge believes them.

***
Yep, that's what clinches me too. I've personally never locked a toiletdoor, when there are family or friends around, let alone a lover ... And I can think of only one reason to take my mobile there at 3 o'clock in the morning. BTW it was the prosecutor, who gave this information.

I lock the loo door when I am in the house on my own. ha ha. We are all different, but I have never taken a mobile in with me. So maybe there is only one reason Reeva took one in at that time of the morning. Truth will out.