Re: Statement Analysis of Kate McCann's diary

by puzzled 10.12.11 15:52

aquila wrote:Imagine that we give birth (to a paedophile that doesn't matter) and then our children are at the mercy of paedophiles. who are now our friends (because it's now socially accepted as an alternative sexuality) and we say....'go help yourselves to my daughter/son, they are feeling really hot and sexy for you too'. It's too disgusting to think isn't it. So all those that want to drop the age consent...call me.

Don't know if you've ever read the novel Brave New World, by Aldous Huxley, but it seems to be getting more and more like the reality as each day goes by.

by Shibboleth 10.12.11 19:09

Pershing36 wrote:Have any of the McCanns libel actions been successful against anyone in the USA?

Have any of the McCanns libel actions been successful against anyone any where in the world? As I think until this point, they always settled out-of-court.

by Liz Eagles 11.12.11 1:02

Shibboleth wrote:
Pershing36 wrote:Have any of the McCanns libel actions been successful against anyone in the USA?

Have any of the McCanns libel actions been successful against anyone any where in the world? As I think until this point, they always settled out-of-court.

I don't know the answer to that question. Just want to make it very clear that in no way am I suggesting the McCanns are involved in paedophilia.

by Shibboleth 11.12.11 7:27

aquila wrote:
Shibboleth wrote:
Pershing36 wrote:Have any of the McCanns libel actions been successful against anyone in the USA?

Have any of the McCanns libel actions been successful against anyone any where in the world? As I think until this point, they always settled out-of-court.

I don't know the answer to that question. Just want to make it very clear that in no way am I suggesting the McCanns are involved in paedophilia.

We do not know yet, whether they are involved or whether they are not. It is something I do not like to think of. But here is something else to think of. Someone has most certainly *touched a nerve* by pointing at Ed Smethurst Facebook account. So much that Ed Smethurst is prepared to have his lawyer to lie under oath, to the judge about the matter. And it is a simple matter that can easily be shown to be a lie. Why would he do that? What more lies does he tell, and what more guilty secrets does he hide?

If he had said, 'yes I had two friends who said this, but I did not realize what they were doing. I took them off of my account when it was showed to me, as I want to do nothing with these kinds of persons' then he has simply made a bad choice. He is a foolish man but not necessarily an evil man. And the matter would be finished. But no, instead he tries to hide it, and then his lawyer makes a perjury about it.

It has surely made me think about it, thinking very hard, I do not want to believe that pedophile are involved, but it appears now that there may be such an element. It makes me feel really sick. Poor little Maddie.

by jd 11.12.11 13:21

Its called taking 'responsibility'.....something that grown up adults do

by Belgian Girl 25.11.13 19:30

mrscee wrote:Hi, I am posting the below link for interest. Seamus O'Riley is a US based blog which does ' statement analysis' examining the police statements and other communications of people in various cases. I find it absolutely fascinating the way he breaks down the text and identifies why certain things point to deception! It is based on the highly developed FBI statement analysis method. The guy has no axe to grind and takes every piece on face value. Anyway, he has recently done an analysis of Kate Mccann's diary, which you may find interesting as it highlights all the areas of tensions which they would pick up on for further investigation.

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by **Hobs** 25.11.13 21:15

Xavier wrote:I have come across this chap before, in the context of another case - Amanda Knox.

In that instance his detailed statement analysis drew conclusions of guilt from the words and expressions she used. However, he was using a translation of the statements. There is an obvious problem in this. Especially in the light of the appeal court ruling.

So I would suggest that members treat his writings with caution, and with a sceptical and unbiased eye.

If you were referring to Peter's ana;ysis of her handwritten letter, it was written in englisjh using the process of free editing in her own hand.

It was not translated into english since it was written in english originally. It would however have been translated into italian for their lawyers and courts.

Knox tells us clearly she was present and the motive dor the murder of Meredith Kercher.
At no point has she ever made a strong reliable denial, nor can she.

She has never taken a polygraph, which given the amount of money she for her book, i would have insisted in, to verify her innocence. I wouldn't let thm choose their own polygrapher or poly shop nor would i have let them decide what questions could be asked ( a la ramseys) it would be a FBI trained independant polygrapher.

Her ownlanguage and behavior indicates her involvement in Meredith's murder.
She may not have struck the fatal blow,she was however present and that makes her as guilty as the one who fif the final blow.

Would an innocent person blame someone else for the murder knowing that man was innocent, and leave him in kail for 2 weeks?

No

A guilty person though would blame anyone and happily leave them in jail for however long they could.

Remember with casey anthony who, despite a seriously dumb jury, got away with murder?

She blamed the guy who found Caylee for killing her and even her own dad ( who has many guilty secrets, murder wasn't one of them)

What about jodie arias who blamed 3 ninjas, she wasn't there before claiiming self defence claiming Travis was an abuser etc.

Guilty people will blame anyone and their dog rather than admit the truth, and when confronted will minimise their own role and blame the vicitm or others involved.

If all else fails she will blame guede and sollecito and claim they forced her into the crime of rape and murder.

Sollecito if pushed will blame guede and knox

Knox is the same

by Okeydokey 26.11.13 16:43

mrscee wrote:Hi, I am posting the below link for interest. Seamus O'Riley is a US based blog which does ' statement analysis' examining the police statements and other communications of people in various cases. I find it absolutely fascinating the way he breaks down the text and identifies why certain things point to deception! It is based on the highly developed FBI statement analysis method. The guy has no axe to grind and takes every piece on face value. Anyway, he has recently done an analysis of Kate Mccann's diary, which you may find interesting as it highlights all the areas of tensions which they would pick up on for further investigation.

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Seems to have been whoosh-clunked in the grand old tradition!

by Guest 26.11.13 18:29

It's a pity. Peter Hyatt changed the name of his blog to "statementanalysis" and since then analyses prior to 2012 seem to have gone ...
Perhaps Hobs can give us a link to Peter's McCann analysis, the conclusion of which was "guilty knowledge". Hobs?????

by ultimaThule 26.11.13 18:34

Another one bites the dust, along with an increasing number of 'disabled comments' on youtube and an almost eerie silence regarding all things McCann in the UK press.

by **Hobs** 27.11.13 0:14

Châtelaine wrote:It's a pity. Peter Hyatt changed the name of his blog to "statementanalysis" and since then analyses prior to 2012 seem to have gone ...
Perhaps Hobs can give us a link to Peter's McCann analysis, the conclusion of which was "guilty knowledge". Hobs?????

Hi Châtelaine

Google messed up his site so he had to start over hence the new name.
I am not sure if he will transfer over the old posts even if they still exist,

He was not a happy bunny and neither were we as there was a lot of valuable posts both teaching and general research or updates on cases.

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Which case are you referring to Châtelaine ??

by ultimaThule 27.11.13 1:22

Are you saying there are other cases, Hobs? bigshock

by **tigger** 09.12.13 8:46

Just posting this here from the libel trial discussion so as not to derail that topic (sorry, my fault) but thisis too good to miss and the full text at the bottom of the link to McCannfiles.com with the entries for the day, well, for a start who is the Julian playing tennis with Gerry?

tigger wrote:
Cribsheets have been the order of the day in McCann-related events:

The A4 typed out timeline of the 3rd, distributed amongst the T9 to use in their early interviews with the PJ
The earlier statements made which ROB was allowed to consult and change in the rogatories

Wonder if that psychologist who testified early on had one as it seems he'd only seen them once or twice.

Dantezebu wrote:
Also the crib that that was with KMs diary. That was undated but said to have been written in the Hilton in Berlin
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It looks like a note for speaking with the PJ maybe on the phone?

Undated, at the Hilton in Berlin

Scared wants to return
Fears for her fear
Reality suddenly binds
Never loved anyone this much (Note: this is written in the third person, as in 'he/she never loved anyone this much')
Never again able to be completely happy / enjoy something. I'm sorry to be asking some of these questions, but I am sure you will understand that our despair, particularly given the lack of information and resulting helplessness, may be somewhat mitigated if it gains some trust.

1. The following people were heard?

(I) teachers and all other officers of the school across the street from our apartment;
(II) all staff working in the Ocean Club Tapas bar / restaurant;
(III) [text cut]

[...]

the "reward"? (That was offered without our knowledge!)

5. How is the information from countries other than Portugal and the United Kingdom being processed? Is it being handled by local police forces in their countries of origin and then passed on to you? Is there a "route" for this information?
[illegible]
6. Was significant data collected by experts in mobile phone communications?

[...]

1. Inquiries
- School - ok
- Tapas restaurant - ok
- Child maintenance - ok
- Yvonne Warren - not that I know of

2. Rbt Murat? evidence? forensic results
why still under strong suspicion if forensic results were negative

3. Info relative to Madeleine? no

4. Reward - OK

5. Route for information from other countries?

by **tigger** 09.12.13 8:57

This is the part which I referred to: Hobs, please help?

The Diary Duarte Levy Wordpress (Portuguese)

By Duarte Levy
04 May 2009
Translated by Nigel Moore, with thanks to Astro

Kate's "Diary" is one of the most curious pieces of a puzzle that the men of the Policia Judiciária tried to reconstruct in order to establish the facts surrounding the disappearance of Madeleine. The report of the first days spent in Praia da Luz was written after the event and reports a kind of "agenda" detailing what the McCanns and their friends allegedly did.

Two years later, day by day, it is interesting to compare Kate's report with what is known in the process. An exercise that reveals contradictions and surprises in its content.

Sat. 28.04.2007
Arrival O.C. 15:00
Apartment 5A
Pool
Swim with M
Meeting with M.W. officials and have a drink
Rest. Millennium with kids (only night) (Note: 'Rest.' = Restaurant)
Return walk - difficult for kids
Bed Bath →
Bed early

Sun 29.04.2007
Breakfast Millennium Restaurant
? pruning of hedge
Morning Kids Club
10:00 morning talking over coffee, I went along to tennis
Lunch sandwiches →
→ F balcony and Dave
Kids Club afternoon
Seated in deck-chairs F A A
K and G run - Beach 16:00
High tea
Recreational area
Rest.: No Matt

Monday 30.04.2007
Breakfast apartment? apartment cleaning
Kids clubs:
Tennis 09.15-10.15 K
G 10.15-11.15
*? washing machine / blinds
Lunch - our apartment then → balcony F and Dave
Kids club?? beach
+ / - 16.00 K run 25 min.
16:30 Tennis lessons
High tea
18:30? tennis night for women
Recreational area
Afternoon: K and J Supermarket
Rest. - everyone

Tuesday 01.05.2007 (holiday)
Breakfast apartment
Kids club - mini-tennis ↓
09.15-10.15 K ↓
G 10.15-11.15 ↓
Madeleine and Ella
* Get camera
Lunch → apartment
RAIN
Kids club beach, sunglasses
Ice cream
13:30 → 15:00 ish
Kids club? 15.15
? time not so good
? G tennis lessons - ok
High tea 16:30
? recreational area
Restaurant? object tennis
No Russell, Evie felt ill
(5D) Russ remained in apartment
Food was brought up

Wednesday - 02.05.2007
Breakfast apartment? apartment cleaning
RAIN
Kids club
Tennis → postponed wet courts
→ Millennium K and G - meet F, D and D
+ / - 11.30 Kate run with Matt
+ / - 40 min.
Get kids
Lunch - apartment, recreational area
Kids club
G Tennis 14.30-15.30
K 15.30-16.30 tennis? tennis lesson
? G Tennis lessons 16:30
Launching speed
? object tennis

High tea → recreational area

Rest. - No Rachael (5B)
Apartment next door
- Slightly later bedtime? 24.00
→ to bar after dinner

Thursday 03.05.2007 - The day of the disappearance

Breakfast - Apartment
Comment Madeleine "Where were you (was I) when me and S cried?"
Kids club, time - check registration
09.00-09.30 → 12:30
Sailing (beach)
Wash M top of pyjamas - big stain
Lunch? apartment? tea
Tennis lesson 09.15-10.15
conversation on the grass w / Russell and Nigel (the video camera)
[?] Minutes of tennis
K
? get Madeleine
J and Fiona (Scarlett)
Then pick up S and A
(? Meeting there with G)
Breakfast - apartment -? balcony
? recreational area - ok
Afternoon / Kids club - a bit later
K Ella already there
Swimming - indoors pool
K and G - practice tennis then lesson and coach Dan
15.30 - 16.30
Julian appeared - continued to play with Gerry
I went to run → beach
(rest of the group on the beach)
Gerry went to meet the kids for high tea at Tapas. I joined them after running.
+ / - 17.20-17.30
[Strikethrough text illegible]
M very tired and quiet
Since Ella was taken from the KC → beach. I was a little worried that she was sad to have been alone. (Not realised that the group had gone to the beach.)
She said she was fine.
She asked me to pick her up and said she was tired.
I picked her up and carried her to the apartment with G and S and A
Prepared bath as kids tired and men's tennis night at 18.00.
I considered returning to the recreation area with the kids but decided to stay in the apartment after bath and hair wash.

G men's tennis night
B pyjamas
Biscuits and milk for the kids - left them with this and books and games and went to take a quick bath / wash my hair.
I got out of the bath and David was knocking on the patio doors.
I wrapped myself in a towel and went into the living room.
He asked if we wanted to go to the recreational area, since he could help me take the kids.
Refused - since kids ready for bed.
I dressed myself.
Ate some snacks with the kids
M tired - sitting on my lap - read story of MOG
Brush teeth
To bedroom with kids
G there too - I think.
[Children's music] - M telling story
M removes and lowers head on pillow

S + A good-night kisses for M
From S and A → cots x2
K gave a good-night kiss to M
Leaned the door as much as possible without closing it.
Silence
? dry hair
Make-up
Glass of wine
20:35 → rest. First to arrive
21:00 → G, Conversation with Steve
21:30 → Matt, Carolyn (Note: Carolyn is a witness who says she heard someone calling Madeleine's name, around 21:30, as she walked back to her apartment)
22:00 → Myself, 20:40 Jane next
20:45 Matt and Rachael
Russell?
Detained
Evie feeling sick
R went for a long time
Jane replaced him

[Three pages with drawings]

Undated, at the Hilton in Berlin

(Rest in previous post)

by bobbin 09.12.13 9:51

Thanks tigger, it’s really valuable to be going back over the older information and looking at it again (with the added value of hindsight).
Snip…
Kids club, time - check registration
09.00-09.30 → 12:30
Sailing (beach)
Wash M top of pyjamas - big stain
Lunch? apartment? tea
Tennis lesson 09.15-10.15
conversation on the grass w / Russell and Nigel (the video camera)
[?] Minutes of tennis
K
? get Madeleine
J and Fiona (Scarlett)
Then pick up S and A
(? Meeting there with G)
Breakfast - apartment -? balcony
? recreational area - ok
Afternoon / Kids club - a bit later
K Ella already there
Swimming - indoors pool
K and G - practice tennis then lesson and coach Dan
15.30 - 16.30
Julian appeared - continued to play with Gerry
I went to run → beach
(rest of the group on the beach)
Gerry went to meet the kids for high tea at Tapas. I joined them after running.
+ / - 17.20-17.30
[Strikethrough text illegible]
M very tired and quiet
Since Ella was taken from the ….. end snip....

So, where is there either the ‘time or any ‘reference’ to the taking of the LAST PHOTO of Maddie, sitting by the pool, in such baking sun, that Gerry was sweating and wearing his horizontally yet vertically placed sunglasses. Why did Maddie swim in the INDOORS POOL, and where is the INDOORS POOL at OC anyway.

by Guest 09.12.13 11:45

The note written in Berlin is very bizzare.
Written in the third person
It looks like crib notes for her diary. To remind her to put some dramatic emotion in? Thoughts off the top of her head?
I think I have seen them somewhere but will need to check the diary entries.

Zebu says Hi tigger, and would like to thank you for the compliments.
But he says like Eddie, no matter how intelligent he is he cannot find what isn't there.
He will search all day if mum wants but can only point out a genuine scent. He would like at times to pretend just to make his mum happy but he says his nose is connected to his brain which is connected to his tail and thats just how it works.
Dante thinks that Cuddlecat should insist on KM wearing latex gloves next time she examines a dead body.

by Doug D 09.12.13 12:17

Following dantezebu's link above [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
re. KM diaries brings up the following:

"The British journalists were annoyed because they found out too late that I had been in the United Kingdom. It ended up with Justine receiving loads of phone calls and arranging for a photoshoot on the way to the church, to pacify them", Kate writes on the 5th of July, revealing a tactic that was adopted in the first days after the 3-year-old girl disappeared.
"Dress up and go for a walk. It had been requested by photographers and agreed that for sentimental reasons it would be good". This walk happened on the 7th of June, three days after Kate registered that she had been "annoyed" about the presence of Portuguese journalists outside the apartment.

Has this trip ever been looked at or was it just a flight-change in the UK during the European tour (unlikely as she says 'I' not 'we'?) as it seems to have been accepted that her trip to the baptism on 14th July was her first trip home.

by ultimaThule 09.12.13 12:56

Pershing36 wrote:Have any of the McCanns libel actions been successful against anyone in the USA?

As far as I'm aware, the McCanns haven't sued anyone in the US, most probably because they'd experience difficulty in getting past the First Amendment.

If they'd realised that freedom of speech is also enshrined in the Portuguese Constitution, they may not have squandered c600,000e and rising on suing Dr Amaral,

I believe I'm correct in saying the McCanns have yet to win a trial for libel as the actions they've instituted in the UK have been settled out of court and, judging from the paucity of 'evidence' they've presented to substantiate their claim in Lisbon, it seems this has encouraged them to believe that all they have to do is file a plaint and wait for a big fat cheque in settlement to land on the doomat of Rothley Towers.

by **Hobs** 09.12.13 13:35

Biscuits and milk for the kids - left them with this and books and games and went to take a quick bath / wash my hair.
I got out of the bath and David was knocking on the patio doors.
I wrapped myself in a towel and went into the living room.
He asked if we wanted to go to the recreational area, since he could help me take the kids.
Refused - since kids ready for bed.
I dressed myself.

This stands out as a sensitive time.

Comapred to hoiw she writes everywhere else here we have a lot of pronouns except in one spot.
There is too much detail compared to all her other writings.
Note she says I went to take a quick bath/wash my har
I got out the bath and davis was knocking on the patio door * did she get out because he was knocking or did she get out and david knocked on the door. ( notice the present tense slip in with knocking and not the expected knocked)
I wrapped myself in a towel and went into the living room
Where was david as so fae he is still knocking on the door, she doesn't tell us if she invited him in or he walked in/
Why the need to tell us she wrapped herself in a towel? She isn't likely to be walking around in the rudey nudey.
This is extra information
He asked about taking the kids etc

Refused - since kids ready for bed.

Oo0 where did the pronoun go, the magic I she has been usely so freely previously.
If she can't take ownership of this statement i can't do it for her.
This is highly sensitive, it may explain why he said it was 30 mins and she said 30 seconds.
It is also worth noting that when bathing/showering/washing or water is introduced it can be an indicator of sexual activity taking place.
I would ask questions about this as it is clearly sensitive to kate.

I dressed myself.

Again this is highly sensitive.

Oo0o lookie the missing pronoun is back yay

Why does she need to tell us she dressed herself, who else would dress her?
Why does she need to tell us she got dressed since she isn't going to go to the tapas wrapped in a towel

Normally we would say we got dressed, it is a given that as adults we are capable of dressing ourselves.
Clearly something happened that kate felt the need to tell us she dressed herself.
When i hear this particular statement my mind goes straight to sexual activity.

it is often her in rape cases where the rapist has left and the victim dresses herself before seeking help

Something went on during payne's visit that was highly sensitive to kate

by Doug D 09.12.13 15:59

From above post:

G men's tennis night
B pyjamas
Biscuits and milk for the kids - left them with this and books and games and went to take a quick bath / wash my hair.
I got out of the bath and David was knocking on the patio doors.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - sta2

GM statement 10th May

"After doing the hygiene, the children were put to bed about 19h30, and the deponent and KATE left for dinner at the TAPAS at around 20h30. Between 19h30 and 20h30 they took a bath and drank wine, Portuguese or New Zealand, and a beer".

KM statement 4th May

"Yesterday, after the daily routine, Madeleine and the twins went into the bedroom and were put in their beds at around 7.30. The witness and her husband stayed in the apartment, relaxing, until 8.30pm. She took a bath, did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with her husband".

DP Rogatory Pt 2. 11/4/08

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"but I remember then you know I went over to see err Gerry at the err you know tennis courts, just to see you know what was happening, and err decided that we’d, you know I’d come, come back to play tennis and err Gerry had asked me just to pop in and check everything was alright err with Kate or you know again I can’t remember the exact reason whether he was just making sure it was alright that he could stay there and you know more time but you know he’d asked me to pop in. So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry’s apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we’ve looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we’ve got that I was you know going to Kate’s about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it’s a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they’ve had such a great time, they’re really tired"

No mention of Kate in a towel in DP's statement here, but she must like her baths!
I’m sure I’ve read a more detailed timeline for DP where he thought he spent 30 minutes with KM, but she said 30 secs, but I can’t find it.

by **tigger** 10.12.13 6:35

Hello and welcome.

The 30 seconds is from the 6th September interview.

There's a very good topic on it : Madeleine by Kate McCann (the David Payne visit) which is in the forum on the book.

by Seek truth 10.12.13 6:59

A diary expressing no feelings, just times and what was done.
What was this for?

Hmm

Nothing important. No mention of searching for M.
Funny. I couldn't pick up a pen to write anything if my daughter had disappeared two days before. Or even go to a baptism. Or jog, or smile. I'd Just cry and search up and down.

by ultimaThule 10.12.13 7:41

I would be demented and, if I didn't go into a catatonic trance state as a reaction to the agony and horror of it all, I'd need to be heavily sedated to stop me tearing myself and others to pieces.

But this is KM; a different type of mother who thought nothing of leaving her under 2 year old twins and their 3 year old sister alone in an unlocked apartment at night while she and their father cavorted with their pals out of sight and earshot of their children and who, despite being a member of a profession who are generally more aware than most of the dangers of accidental death/injury, left them with milk and biscuits while she had a shower/bath/whatever oblivious as to whether they were choking or attacking each other, or had decided to ape their parents by exiting via the patio doors and taking themselves off the nearest bar. .

by **tigger** 10.12.13 12:46

@Doug 1

Here is the relevant information on the 30 seconds. It's from a very good post by Blacksmith in the section about the book as I wrote above. Madeleien, Kate McCanns book, (the David Payne visit) all the references are there.

Kate McCann’s September 6 statement runs thus:

“While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes. After showering, at around 6:30/6:40 p.m. and while she was getting dry, she heard somebody knocking at the balcony door. She wrapped herself in a towel and went to see who was at the balcony door. This door was closed but not locked as Gerry had left through this door. She saw that it was David Payne, because he called out and had opened the door slightly.”

She now departs from direct knowledge deriving from her own experience, as she often does on important matters, adding helpfully:

“David’s visit was to help her to take the children to the recreation area. When David returned from the beach he was with Gerry at the tennis courts, and it was Gerry who asked him to help Kate with taking the children to the recreation area, which had been arranged but did not take place.”

Then, reverting from hearsay to evidence, she concluded:

“David was at the apartment for around 30 seconds, he didn’t even actually enter the flat, he remained at the balcony door. According to her he then left for the tennis courts where Gerry was. The time was around 6:30-6:40PM.”

This was the first appearance of the “Gerry asked Payne...” story — after four months! — and it was followed some twenty four hours later by the same story from Gerry himself in his arguido interview.

by Doug D 10.12.13 21:16

Tigger. Thanks for your welcome and the links.

Julian? (Your post of 9/12/13 at 08.46)
Takes us off at a tangent again along the ‘Doctors’ thread – ‘Would this account for the high level of political support?’

Witness statement of Gerald Patrick McCann, on the 10th of May 2007, at 3.20 p.m.

They bathed the children, the deponent having left at 18H00 for a tennis game only for men, which was attended by: DAN, the tennis instructor; JULIAN, with whom he had played tennis several times; and CURTIS, with whom he had also played before. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - tap10)

Presumably:
Curtis Brain (travelling with Dr. L Hurne)
Dr. Julian Totman

Both on here:
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Witness statement of Jeremy Wilkins 2008.04.08

“Whilst walking the streets, I was hoping my son would fall asleep. Some of the walkways did not have an exit and for this reason I walked practically in circles. When walking one of these paths, I came across a tourist called Curtis with his girlfriend whose name I do not know. He also knew Gerry from the tennis lessons. I remember passing by them but I assumed they were headed to dinner”.
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Dr Julian Totman from Salisbury in Wiltshire.

Booked table in Tapas on Tuesday 1/5/07 at 19.00
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by suep 29.12.13 18:03

Doug D wrote:From above post:

G men's tennis night
B pyjamas
Biscuits and milk for the kids - left them with this and books and games and went to take a quick bath / wash my hair.
I got out of the bath and David was knocking on the patio doors.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - sta2

GM statement 10th May

"After doing the hygiene, the children were put to bed about 19h30, and the deponent and KATE left for dinner at the TAPAS at around 20h30. Between 19h30 and 20h30 they took a bath and drank wine, Portuguese or New Zealand, and a beer".

KM statement 4th May

"Yesterday, after the daily routine, Madeleine and the twins went into the bedroom and were put in their beds at around 7.30. The witness and her husband stayed in the apartment, relaxing, until 8.30pm. She took a bath, did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with her husband".

DP Rogatory Pt 2. 11/4/08

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"but I remember then you know I went over to see err Gerry at the err you know tennis courts, just to see you know what was happening, and err decided that we’d, you know I’d come, come back to play tennis and err Gerry had asked me just to pop in and check everything was alright err with Kate or you know again I can’t remember the exact reason whether he was just making sure it was alright that he could stay there and you know more time but you know he’d asked me to pop in. So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry’s apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we’ve looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we’ve got that I was you know going to Kate’s about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it’s a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they’ve had such a great time, they’re really tired"

No mention of Kate in a towel in DP's statement here, but she must like her baths!
I’m sure I’ve read a more detailed timeline for DP where he thought he spent 30 minutes with KM, but she said 30 secs, but I can’t find it.

I've just revisited DP's rogatory statement and its notable that, despite being 'struck' by the immaculate sight of those three small children, he stumblingly denies being able to recall what anyone was wearing whilst admitting that would be an 'obvious' thing a person would remember,

"1485 ”Okay, so now what I’m gonna try and ask you to recollect, what everybody was wearing.”
Reply ”I’m afraid that is, you know I’m, I cannot recall at all. I know that’s, you’d think that’d be an obvious thing to remember, I cannot remember..."

Since the question he was asked was also referring to Kate's attire, something he wouldn't normally see her wearing ('an obvious thing to remember'), and he can't simply not recall it but he 'cannot recall it at all' I would hazard a guess that his answer is deceptive,
I also think, from a statement analysis point of view, there are indications in his rogatory statement that the subject of children is a sensitive one for DP. I hasten to add, though, that I'm not claiming to be an expert at this kind of analysis since I've only recently discovered it. So whilst I do have experience of using discourse analysis in research, these thoughts on DP are only tentative.

The first thing I noticed was the way he described how there'd been a 'group holiday' in Italy when he and Fiona got married,

"it was just absolutely fantastic. We had children staying there and it was just such a great occasion..."

He goes on to mention others who stayed with them but the first thing he lists that made it not simply 'fantastic' but 'just absolutely fantastic' was the fact that 'children' stayed with them. He doesn't say 'our friends' children' or 'our guests brought their children along' he simply says 'children' in general, which distances him from them and depersonalises them. As I said this is tentative, but it suggests to me that for DP children are special in some way and that his personal meaning of 'group holiday' has something to do with this.

The other thing I noticed was that on two occasions DP uses the word 'bizarre' when speaking about himself and children. The dictionary gives a number of synonyms for the word: strange, peculiar, odd, funny, curious, outlandish, outré, abnormal, eccentric, unconventional, unusual, unorthodox, queer, extraordinary. Here's what he says,

"1485 ”Did you actually offer to check any of the children? I know you say that you didn’t have to check yours.”
Reply ”Yeah, no I never, I never did offer to check. Err there, as much as I you know, know, knew all the children well I err I probably wouldn’t have felt, you know, bizarrely I wouldn’t have felt quite comfortable checking them"

"I know, it does sound bizarre but I just looked at the three of them and I couldn’t, you know they were just so well presented and so clean and immaculate it was, you know I was, and you know they just looked such healthy children, err you know, there’s, there’s you know nothing that normally…”
1485 ”Yeah.”
Reply ”Triggers in my mind like that but it was just how well that they looked and err…”

The use of the phrase 'you know' indicates an acute awareness of the listener and imo both the fact that this occurs along with the word 'bizarrely' in the first example, and accompanied by an almost stuttering admission of discomfort suggests that DP has some guilty feeling around the issue of going into the bedrooms of other people's children to check on them. The questioner made no suggestion at all of impropriety yet DP has reacted as if this had been the case.

In the second example the phrase 'you know' is present again along with another acknowledgement that his observations about these small children 'sound bizarre' to the listener. This is followed by 'but I just looked' - did he mean 'only looked'? - and what was it that he 'couldn't' do that he cut himself off from saying? He goes on to say that 'nothing normally...triggers my mind like that but' it seems like the sight of these children on that day caused him to have these strange, peculiar, odd, funny, curious, outlandish, outré, abnormal, eccentric, unconventional, unusual, unorthodox, queer, extraordinary feelings.

I'm afraid DP's statement makes me feel very queasy indeed.

by Tangled Web 29.12.13 18:12

suep wrote:
Doug D wrote:From above post:

G men's tennis night
B pyjamas
Biscuits and milk for the kids - left them with this and books and games and went to take a quick bath / wash my hair.
I got out of the bath and David was knocking on the patio doors.

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GM statement 10th May

"After doing the hygiene, the children were put to bed about 19h30, and the deponent and KATE left for dinner at the TAPAS at around 20h30. Between 19h30 and 20h30 they took a bath and drank wine, Portuguese or New Zealand, and a beer".

KM statement 4th May

"Yesterday, after the daily routine, Madeleine and the twins went into the bedroom and were put in their beds at around 7.30. The witness and her husband stayed in the apartment, relaxing, until 8.30pm. She took a bath, did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with her husband".

DP Rogatory Pt 2. 11/4/08

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"but I remember then you know I went over to see err Gerry at the err you know tennis courts, just to see you know what was happening, and err decided that we’d, you know I’d come, come back to play tennis and err Gerry had asked me just to pop in and check everything was alright err with Kate or you know again I can’t remember the exact reason whether he was just making sure it was alright that he could stay there and you know more time but you know he’d asked me to pop in. So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry’s apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we’ve looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we’ve got that I was you know going to Kate’s about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it’s a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they’ve had such a great time, they’re really tired"

No mention of Kate in a towel in DP's statement here, but she must like her baths!
I’m sure I’ve read a more detailed timeline for DP where he thought he spent 30 minutes with KM, but she said 30 secs, but I can’t find it.

I've just revisited DP's rogatory statement and its notable that, despite being 'struck' by the immaculate sight of those three small children, he stumblingly denies being able to recall what anyone was wearing whilst admitting that would be an 'obvious' thing a person would remember,

"1485 ”Okay, so now what I’m gonna try and ask you to recollect, what everybody was wearing.”
Reply ”I’m afraid that is, you know I’m, I cannot recall at all. I know that’s, you’d think that’d be an obvious thing to remember, I cannot remember..."

Since the question he was asked was also referring to Kate's attire, something he wouldn't normally see her wearing ('an obvious thing to remember'), and he can't simply not recall it but he 'cannot recall it at all' I would hazard a guess that his answer is deceptive,
I also think, from a statement analysis point of view, there are indications in his rogatory statement that the subject of children is a sensitive one for DP. I hasten to add, though, that I'm not claiming to be an expert at this kind of analysis since I've only recently discovered it. So whilst I do have experience of using discourse analysis in research, these thoughts on DP are only tentative.

The first thing I noticed was the way he described how there'd been a 'group holiday' in Italy when he and Fiona got married,

"it was just absolutely fantastic. We had children staying there and it was just such a great occasion..."

He goes on to mention others who stayed with them but the first thing he lists that made it not simply 'fantastic' but 'just absolutely fantastic' was the fact that 'children' stayed with them. He doesn't say 'our friends' children' or 'our guests brought their children along' he simply says 'children' in general, which distances him from them and depersonalises them. As I said this is tentative, but it suggests to me that for DP children are special in some way and that his personal meaning of 'group holiday' has something to do with this.

The other thing I noticed was that on two occasions DP uses the word 'bizarre' when speaking about himself and children. The dictionary gives a number of synonyms for the word: strange, peculiar, odd, funny, curious, outlandish, outré, abnormal, eccentric, unconventional, unusual, unorthodox, queer, extraordinary. Here's what he says,

"1485 ”Did you actually offer to check any of the children? I know you say that you didn’t have to check yours.”
Reply ”Yeah, no I never, I never did offer to check. Err there, as much as I you know, know, knew all the children well I err I probably wouldn’t have felt, you know, bizarrely I wouldn’t have felt quite comfortable checking them"

"I know, it does sound bizarre but I just looked at the three of them and I couldn’t, you know they were just so well presented and so clean and immaculate it was, you know I was, and you know they just looked such healthy children, err you know, there’s, there’s you know nothing that normally…”
1485 ”Yeah.”
Reply ”Triggers in my mind like that but it was just how well that they looked and err…”

The use of the phrase 'you know' indicates an acute awareness of the listener and imo both the fact that this occurs along with the word 'bizarrely' in the first example, and accompanied by an almost stuttering admission of discomfort suggests that DP has some guilty feeling around the issue of going into the bedrooms of other people's children to check on them. The questioner made no suggestion at all of impropriety yet DP has reacted as if this had been the case.

In the second example the phrase 'you know' is present again along with another acknowledgement that his observations about these small children 'sound bizarre' to the listener. This is followed by 'but I just looked' - did he mean 'only looked'? - and what was it that he 'couldn't' do that he cut himself off from saying? He goes on to say that 'nothing normally...triggers my mind like that but' it seems like the sight of these children on that day caused him to have these strange, peculiar, odd, funny, curious, outlandish, outré, abnormal, eccentric, unconventional, unusual, unorthodox, queer, extraordinary feelings.

I'm afraid DP's statement makes me feel very queasy indeed.

Wow. Excellent post Suep. I, along with many others have always been very suspicious of the Payne visit to the apartment and this just cements that in my mind. He also stopped KM & GM from interacting with a child protection official I believe? Then there was that late night call.....

by Guest 29.12.13 19:00

Tangled Web wrote:
Wow. Excellent post Suep. I, along with many others have always been very suspicious of the Payne visit to the apartment and this just cements that in my mind. He also stopped KM & GM from interacting with a child protection official I believe? Then there was that late night call.....

I'm always careful not to wade into DP too hard, as we have little more than hearsay to go on really. However one thing that does make me wonder about the Gaspar statements (apart from the obvious) is that they only seemed to be considered for the holiday groups once they had children, and when they failed to "take the bait" they were never invited back again - to PdL 2007, for instance.

Is any more known about Stuart and Tara?

by Guest 29.12.13 19:09

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
Tangled Web wrote:
I'm always careful not to wade into DP too hard, as we have little more than hearsay to go on really. However one thing that does make me wonder about the Gaspar statements (apart from the obvious) is that they only seemed to be considered for the holiday groups once they had children, and when they failed to "take the bait" they were never invited back again - to PdL 2007, for instance.

Is any more known about Stuart and Tara?

There is a lot of hearsay isn't there CP, but from the Gasper statement I got the strong impression that they/she would never feel comfortable being in a close situation with their children and DP, so possibly avoided any future contact. imo

by Smokeandmirrors 29.12.13 19:14

It's weird he says that he knew the kids well but wouldn't feel comfortable checking them. Why ever not? I wouldn't think twice about best or very close friends helping out. Goodness, I know loads of people who have friends children over to stay if the parents are ill, or have some engagement to attend, preferable to getting a youngish baby sitter. So why is he distancing himself?