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New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

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When was the Last Photo created?

63% 63% 
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10% 10% 
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13% 13% 
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14% 14% 
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Total Votes : 165

New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by Tony Bennett on 08.06.18 7:16

There has been an intense debate on the #McCann hashtag on Twitter over the past three weeks in which all sorts of extraordinary ideas have been offered as to WHEN the Last Photo/Pool Photo of Madeleine was taken. The McCanns insist it was taken on Thursday 3 May. 




So I have just set up a new Twitter poll, which will run just for the next 7 days.

The Poll Question is: When was the Last Photo created?

You are allowed to set four options only, and I've chosen these four options:

SUNDAY 29th April

THURDSAY 3rd May

Between 29 April and 3 May

After 3rd May.


I would be very grateful if as many of you as possible could vote in the poll.

The best two ways to access it, I think, are as follows:

1.  Visit the #McCann hashtag on Twitter ASAP; it should be near the top of the tweets at the moment

2. Visit my Twitter account: Anthony Bennett @zampos https://twitter.com/zampos/status/1004961508340699137

Also please, if you would, could you re-tweet it so that as many people as possible have an opportunity to vote in the poll - many thanks.



[Two of the bizarre ideas that have been floated on Twitter recently: (1) The McCanns 'farmed out' Madeleine that week and so had no opportunity to take any photos of her (2) The Last Photo was recreated two weeks later with Gerry, Sean and Amelie being photographed at the Ocean Club pool]

Satellite images of the weather that week on each of the 5 days as obtained by Petermac from the EUMETDATA weather satellite:










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Re: New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by Jill Havern on 08.06.18 11:19



For those of you not on Twitter, but would still like to vote, I've added a Poll to Tony's post so we can have a CMOMM vote too.
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Re: New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by polyenne on 08.06.18 14:31

Thank you Jill, I've never wanted to become a Twat -no responses required, thanks !
Vote cast !

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Re: New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by Crackfox on 08.06.18 18:53

I voted after May 3rd, that's not to say Peter Mac's theory isn't credible I just lean towards a later date because it took three weeks fir the photo to appear and when it did the version which appeared at the shrine was definitely photoshopped (which in itself required some considerable skill). This is purely opinion but I strongly believe this photo, like the tennis photo was a product of necessity. Digital cameras are designed for quick snaps which can easily be deleted and these photos are too isolated IMO. I believe the playground photos are the only photos of Madeleine from the holiday. The last photo never made it into Kate's book, this too is a red flag IMO. GM clearly stated there were no more photos from the holiday and it took a trip back to England for this photo to appear. Hope that doesn't ruffle feathers - I think Peter Mac has done incredible work on this case but on this issue I disagree with his conclusion although his reasoning is sound, as always.

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Re: New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by Jill Havern on 08.06.18 20:25

20 votes on twitter so far - 67 on CMOMM.
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Re: New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by Verdi on 08.06.18 22:53

I doubt folk in general want to get involved with a quibble about a photograph.  If anyone can produce positive evidence to support their claim that the 'last photograph' was photo-shopped then they will, whether members of CMoMM and others like it or not.  It wouldn't be the first time and it won't be the last.

At the end of the day, it matters not what the general public think, the important thing is whether or not the official police investigation, by that I mean the Portuguese police,  are prepared to take it seriously.  All this information has been forwarded to the Portuguese authorities by the MMRG and associates (kindly translated from English into Portuguese by Paulo Reis).  Receipt of the document has been acknowledged - it's now a waiting game.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t14979-letter-to-portugal-the-disappearance-of-madeleine-mccann-new-evidence-of-what-happened-to-her#top

The Portuguese know their country's topography and climatic conditions, they have the ability and resources to conduct an investigation on a level with any top world police force, let's just hope they are listening - or more to the point, are in a position to listen and act.

Personally I don't give a kippers doo-dah whether people agree with the theory or not - it makes not one iota of difference one way or t'other.  The research has been accomplished and always looking for further evidence, that's what CMoMM and associates are here for, not to try and convince the populace, they are at liberty to think or believe whatever they wish - and will.

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Re: New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by Jill Havern on 09.06.18 5:29

If the Pool Photo WAS taken on Sunday 29th April (when Gerry wasn't tanned as they'd not long arrived in PdL) and the Exif data changed to make it appear to have been taken on Thursday 3rd (to make it look like Madeleine was still alive), then it is a forgery.

If the Pool Photo WAS taken on Thursday 3rd May when the weather was cool and cloudy, and Madeleine was photoshopped in, as some on twitter claim, then the photo is a forgery.

If, as Textusa purports, it was taken 3 weeks after Madeleine's disappearance when Gerry returned from the UK and presented the photo for the first time and the weather had improved (but Gerry wasn't tanned), and Madeleine and Gerry's sunglasses were photoshopped in, then it is still a forgery.

Either way it is NOT a picture of Madeleine on 3/5/7 !

For those who think the Pool Photo WAS taken on Thursday 3rd May as the McCanns claim and Madeleine WAS still alive until the evening, then the doubters can find their own images of clear skies during the day, and search the weather records as PeterMac has painstakingly done, to show two Force 5 gusts at exactly 10pm on 3/5/7 that passed through a high brick wall, higher trees, a car park, then another brick wall just outside the apartment, to enter the small sheltered window to make the curtains whoosh then fall back neatly behind the bed and chair, and show where this is mentioned in witness statements as the plastic window of the Tapas bar was almost torn from its mounts...

What we are presenting is simply that which recognised independent sources tell us. 
Satellite images, Meteorological Stations, Mariners diaries, and the rest.
Without 'bending anything' to fit a preconceived idea.   We are testing a theory. Nothing more.  

If there is evidence which proves the contrary then it should be presented, and it will be taken into account.

Reference:
Research about the Pool Photo from PeterMac's e-book, which has been sent to Operation Grange and the Portuguese Attorney-General and the PJ for them to do with what they think best (use it or bin it):

Chapter 3: Curtains, Door and Windows
Chapter 6: Cold and Windy
Chapter 14: The Last Photo = The Pool Photo
Chapter 15: Almost the last word on the 'Last Photo
Chapter 28: The 'Pool Photo' refuses to go away
Appendix: Two Photos which tell an important story
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Re: New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by Verity on 09.06.18 6:43

So if the Last Photo is a forgery and it's not certain that the Tennis Balls photo is even genuine, and there are no other photos* or videos during the week then that must mean the First and Last Photos are actually the Playground Photos?

Which supports the theory that Maddie died on the Sunday, or earlier in the week at any rate.

It's just a matter of tying down what day, which I don't think is possible to do without a body is it?

eta* I missed out the Make-Up photo.
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Re: New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by Tony Bennett on 09.06.18 8:26

@Verity wrote:So if the Last Photo is a forgery and it's not certain that the Tennis Balls photo is even genuine, and there are no other photos* or videos during the week then that must mean the First and Last Photos are actually the Playground Photos?

Which supports the theory that Maddie died on the Sunday, or earlier in the week at any rate.

It's just a matter of tying down what day, which I don't think is possible to do without a body is it?

eta* I missed out the Make-Up photo.
This is how we understand the photos of Madeleine that week in Praia da Luz

1 Madeleine playing with her father in the playground - late Saturday afternoon

2 & 3 Madeleine playing by the Wendy House - a bit later, as the direct sunlight has gone

(We deduce this because most of the party are wearing clothes they wore over on the plane journey from England)

4 'Last'/Pool Photo-[generally agreed now to be from Sunday lunchtime

5 'Make-Up' Photo - probably taken Sunday afternoon (stucco background, Madeleine in hair bead, same length hair, pink dress and false story given about the photo)

6 Tennis Balls Photo - NOT taken on that holiday - too many contradictions about it

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Re: New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by HiDeHo on 09.06.18 23:02

McCanns claim photo taken at 2.29pm Thursday 3rd and they were all by the pool.

Jane Tanner claims she was playing tennis with Rachael at that time, and Maddie was shouting at them through the fence. (ie confirmation that Maddie was alive for the last photo on Thursday at 2.29pm)

Rachael claims she was playing tennis with Jane but she DIDN'T see Maddie as the last time she saw Maddie was at her mini tennis


How could Jane see Maddie but Rachael didnt?

Were they playing tennis but Maddie was NOT at the pool?

Was it a contrived effort by Jane to place the MCann family and Maddie at the pool at the time the photo was taken?

Why didn't Rachel see Maddie?

Shows NO PROOF that Maddie was with her family at the pool at 2.29pm

Was Jane really there?

Was Rachael really there?

Were the McCanns really there?

More importantly was Maddie really there?




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Re: New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by Tony Bennett on 11.06.18 21:47

The poll on the Last Photo that Jill added here has already attracted 125 votes in three days.
Please take a moment to add your vote as well.

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Re: New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by Verdi on 11.06.18 23:01

As with all polling stations and statistics generally, they can be sabotaged - and invariably they are sabotaged!

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Re: New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by Tony Bennett on 13.06.18 7:08

Thank you to the 139 members who have already voted on the CMOMM poll.

The Twitter polls only run for 7 days and today is the last day for voting.

If you'd like to add your vote there as well, please head over to my timeline on Twitter where my poll is the Pinned Tweet at the top of the timeline (@zampos).

Many thanks!

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Twitter Poll Results

Post by Tony Bennett on 15.06.18 9:21

The Twitter Poll on the 'Last Photo' on the #McCann hashtag, which ran for one week, closed this morning.

Here are the results.

66 voted.

27 (41%) voted: 'Created on Sunday 29th'

15 (23%) voted: 'Created between 29th April and 3rd May'

13 (19%) voted: 'Created after Thursday 3rd May', while

11 (17%) voted: 'Created on Thursday 3rd May'.


From this admittedly modest number of votes, these conclusions emerge:

Only 11 - 1 in 6 - believed the 'Last Photo' was taken/created on Thursday 3rd May.

The other 55, or 83%, al believed that, one way or another, the claim that it was taken/created on Thursday 3rd May is a forgery.  

The most popular choice by some margin was 'Created on Sunday 29th April.

============

The following must also be said.  27 people voted in accordance with the evidence.

The other 39 did not.

In favour of Sunday 29th April is incontrovertible evidence that it was a wholly sunny day and the ONLY day that week that matched what we see with our own eyes on the Last Photo.

There is no evidence in favour of the Last Photo having been taken on any day from Monday 30 April to and including Thursday 3 May. Those that voted that way and those who argue for those days are reduced to simply saying things like: 'Well, it might have been taken that day", or "There could have been a gap in the clouds". All four days were cloudy, cooler, windier, and rain also fell on some days.

We have evidence from two top digital camera experts that the Last Photo was not photoshopped in any way. The experts for example studied the patterns of the shadows on the photograph, observing that they were wholly consistent - and virtually impossible to fake.

Those who voted in favour of the Last Photo having been created after Thursday 3rd May are what might be called the 'photoshopping brigade', who insist, despite having no professional, expert evidence' in their support, that the photograph was photoshopped at a later date. The photoshopping brigade disagree amongst themselves about which bits were photoshopped. Probably the most extreme view amongst the photoshopping brigade is that of 'Textusa'. He believed that the McCanns took Sean and Amelie to a photo session at the Ocean Club either on Friday 18th May or Sunday 20th May and then went into a nearby photoshopping studio where a composite 'Last Photo' was made comprising four separate photographs. And Textusa's faulty theory depends entirely on a faulty understanding of a vertical image in Gerry McCann's sunglasses.

=================

Let the following also be duly noted and remembered:   

1. The work of discovering the evidence that the Last Photo was probably taken on Sunday 29th April was carried out THIS forum alone

2. It was led by a member of this forum, 'Petermac', ably assisted by several others including IIRC 'JRP', 'BlueBag' and 'Rogue-a-Tory'     

3. Without the work of Petermac and others here, no-one would even think that the Last Photo was probably taken on the Sunday

4. Petermac also himself consulted two top experts, one internationally known, who both ruled that they could see no evidence of photoshopping whatsoever. The 'photoshopping brigade' have produced no expert evidence in support of their beliefs.


And finally, I note that in just one week, 165 members here have so far voted in the same poll, which Jill also placed on CMOMM. That is evidence of a healthy and active forum   




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Re: New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by polyenne on 15.06.18 9:37

In favour of Sunday 29th April is incontrovertible evidence that it was a wholly sunny day - agreed, the fact that Sunday 29 April was a wholly sunny day is "incontrovertible". What is not "incontrovertible" is that it was "the ONLY day that week that matched what we see with our own eyes on the Last Photo".


In most of the satellite images one can quite clearly see the coastline around PdL, albeit with varying degrees of localised cloud cover. Thus it cannot be ruled out that there may have been periods (prolonged or otherwise) when it was sunny on those days.


Although an advocate of an image date earlier than Thursday 3/5, I cannot accept that it is incontrovertible.


As for polls, look at Brexit...………... 

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Re: New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by Tony Bennett on 15.06.18 9:53

@polyenne wrote:In most of the satellite images one can quite clearly see the coastline around PdL, albeit with varying degrees of localised cloud cover. Thus it cannot be ruled out that there may have been periods (prolonged or otherwise) when it was sunny on those days.

There are many statements made by the McCanns, by their Tapas7 friends and by other witnesses which consistently refer to cloudy, cool weather, wind and sometimes rain on EVERY day after Sunday:  Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday (until around 5pm).

@ polyenne   Can I respectfully invite you to produce any witness evidence that week that there were any prolonged periods of sunshine after Sunday?

Mind you, even if there were, I am confident that you would agree with me on this proposition: namely that there is a very high degree of probability that this photo was taken Sunday and NOT on any of the other days.

WEATHER SUNDAY 29 APRIL



SATELLITE IMAGE SUNDAY 29 APRIL



LAST PHOTO - ALSO SUNDAY 29 APRIL?

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Re: New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by polyenne on 15.06.18 10:05

Tony, take a look at some of the images for 3 May 2007 at the Portimao Windsurfing event here : http://www.formulawindsurfing.org/event/112

I wouldn't like to say with certainty that, in PdL (approx. 8 miles away), it wasn't sunny.

Would you ?

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Re: New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by Tony Bennett on 15.06.18 11:08

@polyenne wrote:Tony, take a look at some of the images for 3 May 2007 at the Portimao Windsurfing event here : http://www.formulawindsurfing.org/event/112

I wouldn't like to say with certainty that, in PdL (approx. 8 miles away), it wasn't sunny.

Would you ?

@ polyenne     Yes, I know about these. But you have obviously missed the point - it was discussed here on another thread - that the weather conditions from Monday to Thursday showed mostly cloud cover over the land, but none over the sea.

These types of 'cold front' conditions are very common.  

The land in May in Portugal (and most other countries) is much warmer than the sea. The land warms up much more quickly than the sea this time of year as well, especially after the very sunny spell of weather that ended the night of Sunday 29th/Monday 30th.

Petermac explained to Jill and myself that he included the photos of the windsurfing over the sea to show people he was not being selective and was showing only pictures with a lot of cloud. He was being scrupulously fair - an example to us all.

Meteorology was one of my big interests as a teenager and so I was already well aware that cold fronts commonly produce cloud cover over the land, but none over the sea. It's basic physics.

Of course  I agree with you that there could have been a few rays of sunshine creep in over Praia da Luz during those four days, and if so I once again invite you to direct me to any witness statement which refers to sunny weather on any of the four days.

Even if there was, I don't think there is one CMOMM member who could safely argue that the Last Photo was more likely to have been taken on one of those four days, rather than on the gloriously sunny, warm weather over land and sea on the Sunday.

    

 
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Re: New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by sallypelt on 15.06.18 11:18

@polyenne wrote:In favour of Sunday 29th April is incontrovertible evidence that it was a wholly sunny day - agreed, the fact that Sunday 29 April was a wholly sunny day is "incontrovertible". What is not "incontrovertible" is that it was "the ONLY day that week that matched what we see with our own eyes on the Last Photo".


In most of the satellite images one can quite clearly see the coastline around PdL, albeit with varying degrees of localised cloud cover. Thus it cannot be ruled out that there may have been periods (prolonged or otherwise) when it was sunny on those days.


Although an advocate of an image date earlier than Thursday 3/5, I cannot accept that it is incontrovertible.


As for polls, look at Brexit...………... 

And another point that I can't seem to overcome is, that on the Monday (30th April 2007?) the McCann's "took Madeleine out of the creche" to spend the day on the beach, BUT they weren't there long, as it started to rain. Wasn't it on the way back from the beach, Kate tells us that she bought FIVE ice creams (not ice creams for all the children) and Gerry bought a "pair of sunglasses" DESPITE the fact that she told us that it was raining? I find these little bits of information difficult to swallow, but if it was done to convince us that Madeleine was alive on Monday (Five ice creams) and if Gerry "bought sunglasses" on the Monday, then the "last photograph" could not have been taken on the Sunday. In my opinion, Kate gives us TOO much information.

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Re: New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by Tony Bennett on 15.06.18 11:38

@sallypelt wrote:
@polyenne wrote:
[SNIPPED]

sallypelt:  And another point that I can't seem to overcome is, that on the Monday (30th April 2007?) the McCann's "took Madeleine out of the creche" to spend the day on the beach, BUT they weren't there long, as it started to rain. Wasn't it on the way back from the beach, Kate tells us that she bought FIVE ice creams (not ice creams for all the children) and Gerry bought a "pair of sunglasses" DESPITE the fact that she told us that it was raining? I find these little bits of information difficult to swallow, but if it was done to convince us that Madeleine was alive on Monday (Five ice creams) and if Gerry "bought sunglasses" on the Monday, then the "last photograph" could not have been taken on the Sunday. In my opinion, Kate gives us TOO much information.
The incident of the 'taken out of the crèche and went to the beach' is said by Kate McCann to have happened on the Tuesday 1st May, not the Monday. It's written up in Chapter 4 of the book, 'The Holiday', pages 44-61.

Her account of Tuesday 1 May occupies two pages (pp. 57-59).

There are basically two ways of looking at this.

There are some who would argue that the whole of Kate's book is a truthful account. Those people would argue that Chapter 4, 'The Holiday', is an accurate record of what took place in Praia da Luz from Saturday to Thursday. They would therefore argue that Gerry McCann 'forgot' to bring his sunglasses from England, never wore any on Saturday and Sunday (which were sunny all day), and waited until it was raining on Tuesday to buy a pair. If that account is true, then the Last Photo could not have been taken on the Sunday.

Then there are others who would contend that Kate's book is not a book of truth, and that you cannot rely on any single statement in the book. Those people would argue that although the book contains many truthful facts, it may also contain untruths, possibly to obscure the true events of that week. Those who take that view might be inclined to believe that the Tuesday trip to the beach with 'all five of us' was made up.

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Re: New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by sharonl on 15.06.18 21:56

@polyenne wrote:Tony, take a look at some of the images for 3 May 2007 at the Portimao Windsurfing event here : http://www.formulawindsurfing.org/event/112

I wouldn't like to say with certainty that, in PdL (approx. 8 miles away), it wasn't sunny.

Would you ?

I'll make no comment about the weather conditions on May 3rd, here are some pics from that site. Readers can draw their own conclusions.

http://www.formulawindsurfing.org/gallery/242

3rd of May 2007, Portugal, 2007 Portimao Grand Prix

Day 3






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Re: New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by NickE on 15.06.18 22:44

This is my thought's about this photo.
It was taken on Sunday April 29.
But shouldn't PJ had this photo from their camera if it was taken on Sunday?
It was taken on May 12 and photoshopped (Madeleine was added into the photo) but there's a problem.
I have talked to a couple of photo gurus and one of them told me it's not photoshopped and the other told me if it was photoshopped, the guys who made it was real good at it.
It was taken on May 12 and the photo is genuine but the girl is not Madeleine...or the girl in the playhouse photo is not Madeleine, it doesn't matter how hard I look at these two photo's, I can not see the same girl.
Gerry's sun glasses has been debated over the years and I don't understand how the horizon can tilt 90 degree.

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Re: New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by Verdi on 16.06.18 1:07

No, the PJ wouldn't necessarily have photographs taken from the McCann''s camera/s, apart from the likes of David Payne, Gerry McCann and Michael Wright gave the PJ CDs of 'selected' photographs - from who knows where, on 8th May 2007, that's five days after Madeleine's alleged disappearance.  The McCann's friend, Jon Corner, had a portfolio of Madeleine images available on 4th May 2007.

Gerry McCann returned from his lightening trip to the UK in the third week of May, that's three weeks after Madeleine's alleged disappearance.  It was following this trip that the 'last photograph' was released - coincidence or what?

The idea that the photograph was taken later and Madeleine photoshopped in, is just plain ludicrous, why go to all that bother?  One thing is for sure, Madeleine arrived at the Ocean Club complex with her family on Saturday 28th April 2007, conclusive evidence is proof of her being photographed in the playground and at the poolside with her father and little sister - after that nothing!

Stick to what's known as a template and built on that.  Invention for the sake theorizing is not only counter productive but also and more importantly, an unnecessary distraction.

The last photograph has been discussed over the years to the ninth degree.  The clearest indication to date is merely an alteration of the time and date recorded - the easiest thing in the world to change.  Why this fixation with photographs being photoshopped?

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Re: New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by NickE on 16.06.18 8:24

[quote="Verdi"]No, the PJ wouldn't necessarily have photographs taken from the McCann''s camera/s, apart from the likes of David Payne, Gerry McCann and Michael Wright gave the PJ CDs of 'selected' photographs - from who knows where, on 8th May 2007, that's five days after Madeleine's alleged disappearance.  The McCann's friend, Jon Corner, had a portfolio of Madeleine images available on 4th May 2007.

Gerry McCann returned from his lightening trip to the UK in the third week of May, that's three weeks after Madeleine's alleged disappearance.  It was following this trip that the 'last photograph' was released - coincidence or what?

The idea that the photograph was taken later and Madeleine photoshopped in, is just plain ludicrous, why go to all that bother?  One thing is for sure, Madeleine arrived at the Ocean Club complex with her family on Saturday 28th April 2007, conclusive evidence is proof of her being photographed in the playground and at the poolside with her father and little sister - after that nothing!

Stick to what's known as a template and built on that.  Invention for the sake theorizing is not only counter productive but also and more importantly, an unnecessary distraction.

The last photograph has been discussed over the years to the ninth degree.  The clearest indication to date is merely an alteration of the time and date recorded - the easiest thing in the world to change.  Why this fixation with photographs being photoshopped?[/quote]

Maybe people becomes skeptical because there is photo's like this, with two heads as we can see clearly.

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Re: New TWITTER Poll on the LAST PHOTO

Post by nglfi on 16.06.18 9:37

I agree Madeleine met her fate prior to 3rd May. But I'm with Polyenne in that the weather evidence gathered is not incontrovertible, definitive proof. It's interesting to note that they are all fully dressed in the photo, no bathing suits or swimming shorts. So it can't have been that warm. As to wearing sunglasses, maybe Gerry has sensitive eyes. Who knows. There are too many factors to say definitely, no this was definitely not taken on any other day than the Sunday. Even on fully cloudy days there can be very brief periods where the sun shines brightly, particularly somewhere like Portugal. Even in the UK. Yesterday for example where I live, it was very overcast but there were brief moments of bright sunshine, Even though it wasn't that warm.
I agree it's more likely that it was taken on the Sunday, looking at what the weather was like. But not definitive. Clearly in the photo they haven't sat down to be by the pool for a few hours. No towels, sun cream etc. It seems to be more a case of 'quick, it's sunny, take a photo'.

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