SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

by **Tony Bennett** 14.09.14 17:55

A poll to gauge opinion on the forum as to whether these two images, shown by DCI Andy Rewood on CrimeWatch last October, are of two different people, or the same person...

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by Google.Gaspar.Statements 14.09.14 18:04

They are two different people imo. different face shape, different eyes, different mouths, different hairline, different nose, different ears, and so on.

by **Tony Bennett** 14.09.14 18:10

FWIW, and not wishing to influence the poll either way, these are the differences I noted:

1. they look like differently-aged people, one younger, one middle-aged/older

2. their faces have a different geometric shape

3. one has a fatter face, the other a thinner face

4. their hairstyles are different

5. one has a very big chin, the other doesn't

6. their noses are different - one is much longer than the other.

For anyone who thinks that these are of the same man, I would ask: what do you say are the similarities?

For anyone

by Guest 14.09.14 18:15

I used a piece of card uncovering from the top down,they look different to me.
Tony can I ask does the sighting or alleged sighting have any bearing in all of this or is it a red herring to deflect from something else.

by **Tony Bennett** 14.09.14 18:30

WMD wrote:I used a piece of card uncovering from the top down,they look different to me.
Tony can I ask does the sighting or alleged sighting have any bearing in all of this or is it a red herring to deflect from something else.

Just like Tannerman, Sagres man and Crecheman, Smithman is IMO another fabrication of an abductor - and consequently not only a big red herring but is actually being improperly used by the Metropolitan Police to bring an end - 'closure' - to this expensive saga

by Guest 14.09.14 18:36

Tony Bennett wrote:
WMD wrote:I used a piece of card uncovering from the top down,they look different to me.
Tony can I ask does the sighting or alleged sighting have any bearing in all of this or is it a red herring to deflect from something else.
Just like Tannerman, Sagres man and Crecheman, Smithman is IMO another fabrication of an abductor - and consequently not only a big red herring but is actually being improperly used by the Metropolitan Police to bring an end - 'closure' - to this expensive saga

Thanks for that.

by Woofer 14.09.14 21:45

Well you should know what I think - it could easily be the same man taken from a description from two different witnesses with differing perspectives, to different efit technicians with different efit machines.

by pennylane 14.09.14 22:02

Woofer wrote:Well you should know what I think - it could easily be the same man taken from a description from two different witnesses with differing perspectives, to different efit technicians with different efit machines.

I tend to agree.

by MRNOODLES 14.09.14 22:04

I don't know what I'm supposed to think. My brain says they're two different men, but it's supposed to be one person.

by **Tony Bennett** 14.09.14 22:07

MRNOODLES wrote:I don't know what I'm supposed to think. My brain says they're two different men, but it's supposed to be one person.

OK, MR NOODLES...

Trust your brain - and doubt what you're supposed to think.

There's a lot of things that we're supposed to think these days

by LombardySkeptik 14.09.14 22:13

Woofer wrote:Well you should know what I think - it could easily be the same man taken from a description from two different witnesses with differing perspectives, to different efit technicians with different efit machines.

As above - agree this may be a reasonable explanation

by **Tony Bennett** 14.09.14 23:07

LombardySkeptik wrote:
Woofer wrote:Well you should know what I think - it could easily be the same man taken from a description from two different witnesses with differing perspectives, to different efit technicians with different efit machines.
As above - agree this may be a reasonable explanation

@ Woofer

@ LombardySkeptic

Wait a moment.

There are at least these SIX differences between the two images:

1. they look like differently-aged people, one younger, one middle-aged/older

2. their faces have a different geometric shape

3. one has a fatter face, the other a thinner face

4. their hairstyles are differen

5. one has a very big chin, the other doesn't

6. their noses are different - one is much longer than the other.

I asked earlier:

For anyone who thinks that these are of the same man, I would ask: what do you say are the similarities?

(Apart from the fact that they are both men of 'Caucasian' origin?)

Could one of you help with an answer to that please?

by LombardySkeptik 15.09.14 0:23

Short darkish hair
Similar eyebrow shape
Thinnish lips

They are efits drawn from the recollections of two different people IMO...Thats all... Whether they have been represented this way in statements by SY etc is another matter

by Seek truth 15.09.14 7:11

LombardySkeptik wrote:Short darkish hair
Similar eyebrow shape
Thinnish lips

They are efits drawn from the recollections of two different people IMO...Thats all... Whether they have been represented this way in statements by SY etc is another matter

No only the slim faced man has thin lips. You can't say the wide faced man has thin lips just because his jaw is large.
And the slim faced man's hair is lighter than his beard which is shaved. So his hair is slightly lighter.

by pennylane 15.09.14 9:05

LombardySkeptik wrote:Short darkish hair
Similar eyebrow shape
Thinnish lips

They are efits drawn from the recollections of two different people IMO...Thats all... Whether they have been represented this way in statements by SY etc is another matter

This is the way I see it too!

Usually the police ask what sort of age the person was, and a reply could be '30-35' by one witness and '35-45, by another. This does not mean it is a different person they are describing, it is simply as best they can recall. Guessing an age is difficult at best of times. That goes for height and weight too. Unless the man seen was distinctly fat or distinctly skinny, or tall, there will be an element of difficulty describing him. Various people will remember different things. The police tend to ask if he had any distinguishing features, and if the witness doesn't remember anything that stood out, then it makes the job tougher. I know, I've been in that situation. I thought I didn't remember what the person was wearing at all, until days later an image flashed into my mind as clear as crystal, that the man wore a thin, grey, hooded open zipped sweatshirt. It totally surprised me that I hadn't remembered it earlier, in yet out of everything I remembered, that was the most vivid part of my description in the end. I could only say he had medium to light brown hair, but for all I know it was dirty blonde, I wasn't sure at all, and he was approx 5'7, slender and young, i.e., 20-25. Of course he could have been younger or older, but that was my recollection.

by **Tony Bennett** 18.09.14 13:42

On the CrimeWatch programme on Tuesday (16th), there was a segment lasting 1 min 40 secs (100 seconds) about the McCanns.

On the October CrimeWatch McCann Special two e-fits constituted the centrepiece of the show.

The poll on this thread asks if people think that those two e-fits were of the same man or not. I think they are not. Some agree with me, some don't.

After the October CrimeWatch show, we were told that 'hundreds of people' had called the show and that 'many of them had come forward with a particular name' (I don't have the quote to hand).

I think it's a fair bet that many people put forward (mistakenly IMO) the name of Gerry McCann.

The programme on Tuesday did not refer to 'Smithman' at all.

But not only that, extracts from the reconstuction in October were shown, with clips of Tannerman (now = Crecheman) being taken away from near Apartment 5A at 9.15pm.

Questions please:

Can anyone tell me why Tannerman/Crecheman should be seen now on CrimeWatch at all?

What, if any, significance does Tannerman/Crecheman still have in this story?

What do forum members think about whether - as clearly stated on CrimeWatch a year ago - 'Smithman' remains 'the focus of our enquiries', 'the chief suspect' etc.?

by jeanmonroe 18.09.14 14:14

I posted this on another thread before you asked about the 're-emergence' about Tannerman in latest CW, Mr B.

Just who is Andy Redwood - thats what I want to know...
---------------------------------------

He is, imho, NOW just another 'corrupt' coppper!

He, his 37 other 'Maddie Cops' at OG have been 'peed on' from a great height by his 'boss' BHH AND the McCanns!

Hence 'Tannerman' e-fit on this latest CW.

He, and his 'elites', 'ruled' Tannerman OUT,(crecheman) but his 'superiors' have ruled firmly Tannerman back IN!

Now you know WHY the McCanns were 'allowed' to keep Tannerman, despite Grange's 'attempts' to eliminate him, on their website, all this time!

Who is AR?

Imo, a complete muppet!

Still, he'll be gone shortly, retirement, and he wouldn't have solved the 'crime of the century' and the next deliberately CHOSEN, (the McCanns and their friends never done it, guv) 'special one' DCI, will take his place.

He's been 'played' but he's the only one that can't see it!

And he, and his 'elites' didn't even 'see' THIS coming!

Still, there is an 'upside' for him, i suppose.

He MIGHT get a final trip to Portugal finest Pizzaria and be able to top up on his duty 'free's' IF the libel case resumes before he 'retires' by way of 'questioning' his new 'suspects' in Portugal, a few days before resumption of his 'clients' libel claim.

Fingers crossed, Andy?

Of course, by bringing Tannerman, and completely 'dissing' DCI Mahogany's FOUND 'Crecheman' after a 3 YEAR OG search, 'back', that puts JT and her discrepancies, 'right back in the frame' dosen't it?

by Guest 18.09.14 21:54

Tony Bennett wrote:A poll to gauge opinion on the forum as to whether these two images, shown by DCI Andy Rewood on CrimeWatch last October, are of two different people, or the same person...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

If you cover the bottom half of the faces from the nostrils down they are remarkably similar, imo.

I've always thought the pointy and asymmetrical jawline of the first face is due to the child's head obscuring that side of the face. No-one is that lopsided, and it's due to the compiler not having a true image of the jaw because it's hidden. They've literally reproduced what they saw, the jaw being gouged out because of the line of the child's hair.

by palm tree 18.09.14 22:03

Wow, your right, Dee Coy, they do look very similar. Whoever described that must have been honest enough, if that person didn't see that part of the face, then that's probably why it's missing!
IMO

by cloak'ndagger 18.09.14 22:10

Dee Coy wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:A poll to gauge opinion on the forum as to whether these two images, shown by DCI Andy Rewood on CrimeWatch last October, are of two different people, or the same person...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

If you cover the bottom half of the faces from the nostrils down they are remarkably similar, imo.

I've always thought the pointy and asymmetrical jawline of the first face is due to the child's head obscuring that side of the face. No-one is that lopsided, and it's due to the compiler not having a true image of the jaw because it's hidden. They've literally reproduced what they saw, the jaw being gouged out because of the line of the child's hair.

Spot on

by Nereid 18.09.14 22:21

It is extremely difficult to do an e-fit of someone you know, let alone of a stranger you've seen in a flash.

Perhaps time for an experiment if anyone is up for it.

There is a widget (limited) here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I did Gerry from memory without looking at a photo of him and I struggled. There is no way I could accurately do an e-fit of a stranger that I saw for a few seconds.

If anyone is interested, perhaps we can post the results up in a few days and see the differences.

Also a very interesting article by Professor Graham Pike who developed the above widget: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by palm tree 18.09.14 23:00

Martin Smiths description was based on the mannerism in the way gm carried his twin when getting of the plane though.

by MRNOODLES 18.09.14 23:39

cloak'ndagger wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:A poll to gauge opinion on the forum as to whether these two images, shown by DCI Andy Rewood on CrimeWatch last October, are of two different people, or the same person...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

If you cover the bottom half of the faces from the nostrils down they are remarkably similar, imo.

I've always thought the pointy and asymmetrical jawline of the first face is due to the child's head obscuring that side of the face. No-one is that lopsided, and it's due to the compiler not having a true image of the jaw because it's hidden. They've literally reproduced what they saw, the jaw being gouged out because of the line of the child's hair.
Spot on

But on the other hand. IF Crimewatch said, 'these two jokers robbed a bank'.

Would any of us say, 'oh hang on those two e-fits are of the same bloke'. Very unlikely imo.

by Gaggzy 19.09.14 17:25

palm tree wrote:Martin Smiths description was based on the mannerism in the way gm carried his twin when getting of the plane though.

Gerry McCann's unintentional reconstruction.

by palm tree 19.09.14 19:10

I wonder what would've happened if he'd carried an awake Amelie?
IMO

by nglfi 19.09.14 19:16

Similarities -

1. Eyebrow shape and thickness
2. Hair of both appears to be cut short but it would be curly if they let it grow
3. Similar moustache area
4. To me the noses appear the same length, with both having a downward tipped nose and similar size/shape nostrils
5. To me the hairline shape looks the same.

Having said that, the two face shapes are different but I believe Deecoy has provided a good explanation for that!

Witness testimony is notoriously unreliable (although i hate to use that phrase now!)People's ability to recall varies wildly and I believe these could be two individuals recollection of the same person.

by palm tree 19.09.14 19:22

nglfi wrote:Similarities -

1. Eyebrow shape and thickness
2. Hair of both appears to be cut short but it would be curly if they let it grow
3. Similar moustache area
4. To me the noses appear the same length, with both having a downward tipped nose and similar size/shape nostrils
5. To me the hairline shape looks the same.

Having said that, the two face shapes are different but I believe Deecoy has provided a good explanation for that!

Witness testimony is notoriously unreliable (although i hate to use that phrase now!)People's ability to recall varies wildly and I believe these could be two individuals recollection of the same person.

Agree

by j.rob 19.09.14 20:23

palm tree wrote:I wonder what would've happened if he'd carried an awake Amelie?
IMO

I wonder if, for whatever reason, it was important that Amelie was asleep when being photographed being carried off the plane? Sean was awake and looking forwards so he is captured by the press photographers.

Whereas Amelie seemed to have been in a deep sleep, judging by how she was carried over Gerry's shoulder. So you cannot see her face at all.

Perhaps of interest that Gerry was carrying Madeleine's sister (rather than her brother who was being carried by Kate) on the family return from the fateful holiday during which one of their children apparently mysteriously vanished.

by palm tree 19.09.14 21:06

j.rob wrote:
palm tree wrote:I wonder what would've happened if he'd carried an awake Amelie?
IMO

I wonder if, for whatever reason, it was important that Amelie was asleep when being photographed being carried off the plane? Sean was awake and looking forwards so he is captured by the press photographers.

Whereas Amelie seemed to have been in a deep sleep, judging by how she was carried over Gerry's shoulder. So you cannot see her face at all.

Perhaps of interest that Gerry was carrying Madeleine's sister (rather than her brother who was being carried by Kate) on the family return from the fateful holiday during which one of their children apparently mysteriously vanished.

Shit sorry j rob, I thought gm was carrying a sleeping Sean! Hope I haven't confused anyone blushing1

by pennylane 19.09.14 21:54

palm tree wrote:
j.rob wrote:
palm tree wrote:I wonder what would've happened if he'd carried an awake Amelie?
IMO

I wonder if, for whatever reason, it was important that Amelie was asleep when being photographed being carried off the plane? Sean was awake and looking forwards so he is captured by the press photographers.

Whereas Amelie seemed to have been in a deep sleep, judging by how she was carried over Gerry's shoulder. So you cannot see her face at all.

Perhaps of interest that Gerry was carrying Madeleine's sister (rather than her brother who was being carried by Kate) on the family return from the fateful holiday during which one of their children apparently mysteriously vanished.
Shit sorry j rob, I thought gm was carrying a sleeping Sean! Hope I haven't confused anyone

GM was definitely carrying a sleeping Sean off the plane and KM was carrying Amelie behind him.