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Thursday was different (and, more importantly, so was Tuesday)

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Thursday was different (and, more importantly, so was Tuesday)

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 10.11.17 11:57

Courtesy of HiDeHo

Fiona Payne
 I think every lunch, bar the Thursday, we had people in the apartment having lunch. Erm, and my mum generally was the sandwich maker, that was a bit of a joke for the week, she’d took it upon herself to do loads of shopping, erm, while we were sort of sailing and stuff, she, she’d go to the Supermarket and get loads of, loads of provisions in and she’d be making piles of baguettes and, erm, yeah, and everyone would generally descend on ours and demolish the lot. Erm, and, yeah, we just all mucked in to cook for the kids, we generally tried to give them a hot, a hot lunch and, you know, people would just donate whatever was in their apartment”.

Reply
“I mean, I think every night we saw all of each other, bar the Thursday, again, that was a different night”.


1485
“It was different”.


Reply
“In that Kate wasn’t there with, with the three kids, because we’d all done something different in the early evening, so we were a bit later coming back to the Tapas Bar”.


1485
“Yeah”.


Reply
“And, you know, Madeleine and Sean and Amelie were just absolutely knackered, so, you know, so that was different, but we’d, as I say, the day had gone differently, so”.



 
Reply
“Because I’ve got no idea who went first and, to be completely honest, I didn’t at the time. Erm, but I’d say on, on the first few nights it all seemed, erm, fairly well spaced, you know, like people going together, that was just a feeling, a general feeling that I’m giving you. Erm, whereas, again, that differed on the Thursday night, in that, it seemed more, erm, out of, people were more out of synch. But I think that’s because we all arrived at different times, whereas, generally, we were a bit more on time at the beginning of the week”.


1485
“Yeah”.


Reply
“Erm, so, you know, people were going, you know, more sort of nine o’clock, then it’d be half nine and, you know, I remember people clock watching, erm, doing that. I didn’t have any idea of time, erm, I wasn’t wearing a watch, I didn’t have a mobile and I wasn’t going up to check our children”.



 
1485
“Would you say that the time that you went down on Sunday is generally the same time that you went down every night?”


Reply
“Erm, I was a bit later on the Thursday than normal because I wanted to go for a run. Erm, so, yeah, that was more I think sort of ten to, five to nine, it was, we were late that, that night”.




 
On the Monday night, erm, I think so, yeah. I mean, I think, usually, by the time we got there, there were at least two other couples, you know, occasionally we might have been the third couple, erm, rather than the last to arrive, but, yeah, and nobody was ever late, I mean, we all generally got to the table within twenty minutes of each other”.


1485
“Yeah”.


Reply
“Erm, so there was never anything really outstanding about the previous nights”.

01.28.01
1485
“And would you pass anybody on the way to the Tapas?”


Reply
“Erm, tut, no, erm, not that I’d”.


1485
“Any of the group perhaps going to do their checks or?”


Reply
“No, because generally, as I say, we, the early part of the week, we were generally all within the same sort of time bracket, so, yeah, we didn’t, on previous nights, see anybody coming back. Erm, Thursday night was different, we did, we saw Matt, but on previous nights, no, generally we’d go down, go straight to the table. Erm, you know, when we arrived at the Tapas there were usually some other couples eating and they would normally be almost sort of halfway through getting to the end of their meal by the time we were starting, we tended to be seemingly later than most, erm, having our meals. Erm, but in terms of me passing people on the way down, again, it seemed, it always seemed very quiet and nobody about when we were going down”.





But it had been so kind of cool in the afternoons it, erm, hadn’t been much fun. So I don’t want to commit to the fact that we went there, I think Thursday may well have been”.


1485
“The first time?”


Reply
“We definitely went on the Thursday and I think that might have been the first time we actually did that as a group, minus Kate and Gerry”.






 
Reply
“We definitely went on the Thursday and I think that might have been the first time we actually did that as a group, minus Kate and Gerry”.


1485
“Right”.


Reply
“Erm, and I think why I’m thinking that is, I know Kate and Gerry did go to the beach, I think they tried to have lunch on the beach with the kids on one of the previous days and we didn’t, you know, and that’s maybe why I’m getting confused”.


1485
“Are you able to say what day that was that you think?”


Reply
“Again, I couldn’t tell you. We didn’t really see Kate and Gerry for any lunchtimes, but I know one of those, I remember Kate saying it was a bit of a disaster, because Sean put his feet on the sand and didn’t like it and it was cold and windy and it was all a bit of a disaster, so they didn’t do it again. Erm, tut, yeah, so, you know, I am backtracking, but I think Thursday was the first day that we went down after the sleep time”.

 




she picked up Madeleine and I picked up Scarlet and then we walked back together and that was the only day we ever did, ever did that


 
and then when we got back they, you know, Kate too Madeleine to their apartment for lunch and, erm, I went up to ours for lunch. And that day, erm, I think was the only day that no-one else came for lunch, erm, tut, I think that was just me, Dave and my mum, and the others, Rachael and Matt, I think, had their lunch with Russ and Jane, erm, so those two families were together, Kate and Gerry on their own and us on our own.
 


We put our kids to bed slightly earlier that day, thinking, because it was a nicer day, that we’ll try and get down to the beach and, you know, have a bit of a afternoon at the beach with them. So that day was slightly different”.
 


“Erm, as I say, I would have seen them every high tea, I mean, the Thursday, that was a different day, in that, I’d only seen Madeleine when, as I say, when I walked with Kate, erm, and we picked Madeleine and Scarlet up. But, yeah, bar that, we saw the children ever, every evening for high tea and afterwards for the sort of playtime. Erm, but during the day I tended not to see, not to see them”.
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Re: Thursday was different (and, more importantly, so was Tuesday)

Post by Verdi on 10.11.17 12:31

More importantly - so was Tuesday different!

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Re: Thursday was different (and, more importantly, so was Tuesday)

Post by aquila on 10.11.17 13:18

@Verdi wrote:More importantly - so was Tuesday different!
The word I find strange in the campaign is 'routine'. A seven day holiday apparently has to have an embedded (sorry for the pun) routine.
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Re: Thursday was different (and, more importantly, so was Tuesday)

Post by HiDeHo on 10.11.17 14:26

@Verdi wrote:More importantly - so was Tuesday different!

Funny you should say that Verdi :)


Title: Was there something ''different' about Tuesday May 1st?



(Date Posted:06/10/2010 9:12 AM)

http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/Tuesday-May-1st/Was-there-something-different-about-Tuesday-May-1st-1-802485.html



Aimoo are having some technical issues, if you cant reach the forum I have copied it to this spoiler...



Did something happen TUESDAY?:


http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic7780.html

Tuesday contains a few curiosities (imo)

The maintenance men needing to fix the blinds and show Kate how to use the wahing machine.(Kate claims 
Gerry broke them on Sunday and they were fixed Monday - curiously, Matthew also claims to have broken his blinds on Sunday)


The trip to the beach with the description of 5 ice creams (as if to confirm how many people) and the strange 'in depth' description of the guitar player.(a possible suspect?)

 They used a buggy they claimed they didn't have.


On their return at 2.30pm, Madeleine immediately went back to the beach for the ice cream trip and play on the beach with the creche! (is there a possibility of this activity being used as inspiration for the trip?)  ROB also signed Ella in at the same time.  Madeleine was not signed out that afternoon.


(There is always the possibility that some of these statements may be referring to another day)


Rachael's description of the mini tennis (Madeleine's group played on Tuesday) is attributed to Thursday in her statement where she also claims it was the last time she saw Madeleine.

I
can understand her mixing up the days but to claim it was the last time she saw Madeleine leads me to believe that she is possibly lying about being at the tennis, in which case she would not be able to differentiate between the other group or Madeleine's group playing OR she didn't see Madeleine after Tuesday!


The interviewing officer also questioned her on which Court the children played an she described Court 1 confidently but the children in both groups played on Court 2 according to the tennis records. (This tells me they were questioning whether she really DID see Madeleine's tennis lesson)


Jez, Gerry and ROB all went to pick up their children at the same time at lunchtime, but ROB did not sign Ella out.


Ella was signed in (coincidentally) at the same time as Madeleine after her return from the beach and in the afternoon Madeleine was not signed out.


Are the records in the view of the nannies or can they be signed out of view?


At this point in the week Madeleine was just another child to look after and I question whether Catriona needed to be vigilant as to which children were present as, unlike a school atmosphere, children were not obliged to be there at any particular time.


No need to mention that Mrs Fenn heard the crying between 10.30pm and 11.45pm and Kate's mobile had a flurry of calls for the 15 minutes prior to the crying being heard. 10.16pm-10.27pm


Was Kate nearby or IN the apartment?


Were the calls related to the crying?


Was she in the tapas between 10.15 and 10.30?


Did she leave at 11.00 with Gerry?


Why didn't the quiz mistress recall seeing Kate or David Payne?  She noticed a place setting as if someone had left.


Why didn't anyone get up and check on the children between approx 9 and 10. According to the quiz mistress noone left the table while she was there.


Amelie was crying and Madeleine slept in parents room because Amelie was crying.


The cleaner saw a cot in their room the next morning but they deny it.


Was Madeleine sleeping in that cot?


Why were there early morning calls to Amanda around 7  in the morning?


So many questions, so few answers and of course proves nothing.


What it DOES show is that it is POSSIBLE something was being 'covered up' for that day. IMO

__________________________________________________________

(Portions of Statements below)

Tuesday morning they had breakfast in the apartment.

Kate's tennis lesson was 9.10am and the twins were dropped off at 9.20 by Gerry he then dropped Madeleine off at 9.30am

According to a work order, maintenance men entered the apartment.Kate was there at some point as they showed her how to work the washing machine and they fixed the shutters in the parents bedroom. Kate claimed they were broken on Sunday and they were fixed on Monday

[size=14](NOTE: Was she mistaken with the day, in which case they were likely broken on Monday or did she 'change' the day consciously to avoid mentioning them broken on Monday? Either way, I would imagine they were fixed by the following day of being reported considering they would be a safety factor so its likely to be MONDAY they were broken)

This is where it starts to get confusing.

Rachael claims to have spent time with Kate after she finished her tennis lesson and they both watched Madeleine at mini tennis along with Jane Tanner who apparently took a picture of Madeleine. 

However, she attributes this to Thursday and not Tuesday. The other group from the creche played on Thursday (ROB claims chatting with the man from Southampton about photos and remembers that Madeleine wasn't there at the time)
[/size]

Quote:

RACHAEL
then erm Matt and I were having a tennis lesson at eleven o’clock, and so basically it just, you know I just sat by the pool and read my book, sort of waiting for the tennis lesson and Kate, Kate was there and we sat together and had you know, chatted a bit, erm and then I think Diane might have been there as well, remember chatting to Kate cos we were talking about schools and that sort of thing, erm and holidays, erm and then I think it must have been at about ten thirty, Madeleine and E**a and their sort of group came to have a tennis lesson as part of their crèche activities, erm and Kate didn’t have her camera and Jane was there then as well and Jane took some photos of both Madeleine and E**a, that’s one, that poster of Madeleine with the tennis b*lls, that sort of pictures”. 00.51
00.51.21 1578 “That was taken on the”? 
Reply “Yeah that was that morning”. 
1578 “Thursday”? 
Reply “Yeah, erm so we sort of watched them have their tennis lesson, erm and there were a few other parents there, sort of taking photos and that sort of thing, erm and then they headed back off to crèche and then Matt came up from the beach and we had our tennis lesson at eleven with Dan




Kate, meanwhile, finished her tennis lesson at 10.10am, watched Madeleine play tennis at 10.30am, and chatted to Rachael and went to the apartment to meet with the repairmen at some point.

Tuesday appears to be the last 'credible' sighting of Madeleine by Georgina the tennis coach at the same time that Gerry had his tennis lesson with Dan. (where tennis pic was taken?)


(NOTE: Credible if we can be sure that out of the six children - 4 girls and 2 boys - playing that morning she remembers Madeleine specifically. When shown a 'young' pic of Madeleine would she be able to relate it to the slightly older child that should have been in her class?)


According to Jez he had a doubles game (following the lesson with Gerry which was 10.10am- 11.10) with two of Gerry's friends, starting at 11.10am


Then Jez, ROB and Gerry walked to the creche to pick up the children

Rob showed Gerry the short cut

Gerry signed out Madeleine at 12.20pm but ROB did not sign out E**a.

Jez told Gerry about the availability of the creche in the evening where they provided blnkets to carry the children home.

Jez states on Thursday



Quote:

From previous conversations had with Gerry, I am of the notion of the usual routine of the group in relation to checking on their children when they were in the Tapas Bar.



[size=14](NOTE: It rained on Wednesday and Jez missed the lessons that were changed to the afternoon so it is likely that one of these 'conversations' happened on the Tuesday (implanting the possibility of an abduction opportunity, maybe?) 

I often wonder if Jez explanation of carrying the children in a blanket is what inspired bundleman)


After lunch at 1.30 K&G took the children to the beach with the twins in carriages.
[/size]

Quote:

on Tuesday there was a slight change given that after lunch, at 13h30, he and KATE decided to take the three children to Paris da Luz, having gone on foot, taking only the twins in baby carriages. They all left by the main door due to the carriages, went around to the right, down the street of the supermarket and went to the beach along a road directly ahead.



Gerry and Madeleine paddled in the water.

They went to an esplanade of a cafe (Paraiso?) where they had 5 ice creams and 2 drinks and watched a guitarist.



Quote:

the individual had a neglected and careless appearance, unshaven and somewhat shabby [raggedy]. He was Caucasian, 175cm tall, thin, 70 to 75kg in weight, dark, short hair, almost shaven-headed with grey sides, and not wearing glasses. Wearing a light brown-coloured “kispo” [coat?], with a hood at the back, and dark cotton trousers, not noticing the footwear. He said that he never behaved strangely, nor approached or looked at the children in an ostensible [deliberate/menacing] manner



They left the beach area after spending 20 mins there as it became cloudy and cold.

In the afternoon Gerry signed Madeleine in at 2.30pm and Cat Nanny signed Ella in at the same time.

The afternoon activities were 'ice cream trip' 2.30 -3.30 and beach play from 3.30 - 4.30 so Madeleine appeared to have returned to the beach and had another ice cream!

(NOTE: Exactly the same time? Coincidence? Where was ROB?)

Thanks to Montaillou for a 'set' of daily creche records.




Quote:

ROB
I recall going for a sailing lesson on Tuesday and Jane went to play tennis, we collected the kids as usual around lunchtime, Kate and Gerry had lunch in their apartment as they did on most days. I went out in the afternoon to the beach I was with Matt and as far as I can recall we went out kayaking.





No-one signed Madeleine out and Ella was signed out by ? at 5.30pm

After 3.00pm I can see no statements (so far) describing what any of the tapas 7 did until the evening.

Tuesday was Quiz night, ROB was not there due to one of the children being sick 

[size=14](NOTE: contradictions on different statements whether E**a or E**e.
- He also states it was the first time they were all together. (both JT and ROB cannot agree on days Monday or Tuesday)


Rachael says she was ill that night (Rog) but also also says not at tapas on Wednesday.

Kate say ROB was looking after younger daughter

Jane or SOMEONE took him his meal

MRS FENN HEARD CRYING between 10:30 and 11:45

Kates mobile places her in/near 5 A for several calls around 10:16 approx - 10:27approx

Finished dinner around 11 PM, and together with Gerry, left for the apartment.

(NOTE: Where was Kate when she received those calls?)

She thinks they went to the flat four times: Gerry twice and she twice. Approx. 9, 9:30, 10, and 10:30PM.

The quiz mistress, after the quiz finished at 9.30pm, was invited to the table with Gerry and the others.

Gerry didn't leave the table while she was there (9.00 - 9.50pm?) and she noticed an empty place setting 

(NOTE: Had Kate been there and eaten and left or was there a place set for ROB and Jane took his meal to him from there)

She did not recall seeing Kate or David Payne at the table.

on that night, after midnight, Madeleine went to their room and said that her sister Amelie was crying, and slep with her and Gerry in their room. She says that before Madeleine appeared in their room, she had already heard Amelie crying, however she did not go to the room, as Madeleine went to the room almost at the same time she head the crying. She does not remember if afterwards she or Gerry went to the childrens’ room, however she states that Amelie cried for a short time.

She says that on that night the twins slept in the room where Madeleine slept, each in their own crib.

When asked if Madeleine slept in their room, she says yes, as mentioned, on the Tuesday night.

(NOTE: Cleaner saw a crib in the McCann's bedroom on Wednesday morning which both Kate and Gerry denied. 

Only one of the beds in Madeleines room was slept in but she doesnt say which one. She cleaned the shutters while she was there

Also Kate made 2 phonecalls early in the morning. From memory so lease advise if incorrect, to Amanda her friend who's husband is a pathologist, not unusual to have friends within the medical field)


Jez Wilkins remembers seeing the twins with McCann's FRIENDS (day unknown)
JEZ - I do not have grand memories of Madeleine but did see her on some occasions with her parents in the crèche. My last memory of the twins, specifically, was in the company of adults (I think they were friends that travelled here) in the pool zone and also on the day that we left,


Tuesday and other days can be seen in 'table' form for easier comparison
http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Compar ... 93807.html

________________________________________________________
Diary translated from French (Duarte Levy)
http://the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic ... 35&t=31753
Tuesday 01.05.2007 (holiday)
Incl. addition. apartment
Kids club - mini-tennis ↓
09.15-10.15 K ↓
G 10.15-11.15 ↓
Madeleine and E**a
* Get camera
Lunch → apartment
RAIN
Kids clubs Beach sunglasses
Ice cream
13:30 → 15:00 and this
Kids club? 15.15
? time not so good
? G tennis lessons - ok
High tea 16:30
? recreational area
Restaurant? object tennis
Russell not E**e felt bad
(5D) was Russ apartment
Food brought up



10am

JEZ - Tuesday, 1st May, 2007 we again had a tennis lesson together. 

JEZ
Tues 1 May 07.
This was again during a tennis session and it was at this time he met some of the group and realized that the people he met on the Plane were indeed part of the group.
(ROB MO JT RM)

GEORGINA LOUISE JACKSON
She relates it was one of the preferred activities of the McCann couple in that they had several lessons throughout the days and up to the date of the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, it being that the child also had a class, on Tuesday, 1 May (10-11h00), that class [in which] she was among a group of children was conducted by the deponent.
Daily court booking sheet Tuesday 01 May 2007
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/TB/0 ... ge_656.jpg 

Luis Felipe Monteiro Ferro

Date/Time: 2007/05/07 13H00
Maintenance Worker
Portuguese

This happened on Tuesday, the first of May, in the sequence of a service that he had to carry out in the apartment where this family was staying, also known as Block G5, Letter A; 
. This serviced was carried out between 10H00 and 11H00 (NOTE: Kates tennis was 9.15 - 10.15), together with his colleague who is named Mario, and consisted of the repair of a blind in the room of the parents of the minor; 
. In this sequence, the deponent and his colleague also taught the mother of the child how to operate the washing machine; 
. The woman in question was alone in the apartment;
. The only places of the apartment where the deponent and his colleague entered was the kitchen and the parent’s bedroom;
11:00am

Kids club - mini-tennis ↓
09.15-10.15 K ↓
G 10.15-11.15 ↓
Madeleine and E**a
* Get camera

Jez - After the lessons, this time we had a game of doubles together with two friends of his! At this point I established that Jerry and his family had come along with a group of other families, four (4) in totals. The game longed about one hour and a quarter.


12:00

FORMS 12.?0 GM

GERRY
From memory, on Tuesday, 1 May 2007, being shown by RUSSEL, he went to pick up MADELEINE at crèche using a short-cut that began at the car park opposite the secondary reception and went between the buildings, which he used to fetch and carry his daughter
NOTE: If ROB and Gerry went together to pick up children (as per above) ROB did not sign Ella out.....Jes Wilkins also recalls walking to creche with Gerry and Russell at 12.30 May 1st .. 

JEZ He recalled walking to the crèche with Gerry who had left Madeleine with the staff. This was about 1230 hrs on Tues 1 May. He then went on to explain that the children could be left with the staff during the evening and that most would be picked up before 10pm. It was not an unusual sight to see people walking through the site at night with a child in their arms asleep. NOTE:Inspiration for bundleman? The crèche would also provide a blanket to cover the child if required. He had taken up this facility hence his knowledge of the procedure.

Jez -After the game we walked together with a third male called Russell or Matt, to pick the children up from the Mini-Club My son was in the Sharks group. I believe that Madeleine was in the Lobsters.

1:00

JEZ He recalled walking to the crèche with Gerry who had left Madeleine with the staff. This was about 1230 hrs on Tues 1 May. He then went on to explain that the children could be left with the staff during the evening and that most would be picked up before 10pm. It was not an unusual sight to see people walking through the site at night with a child in their arms asleep. The crèche would also provide a blanket to cover the child if required. He had taken up this facility hence his knowledge of the procedure.

FIONA-We didn’t really see Kate and Gerry for any lunchtimes, but I know one of those, I remember Kate saying it was a bit of a disaster, because Sean put his feet on the sand and didn’t like it and it was cold and windy and it was all a bit of a disaster, so they didn’t do it again.

GERRY on Tuesday there was a slight change given that after lunch, at 13h30, he and KATE decided to take the three children to Paris da Luz, having gone on foot, taking only the twins in baby carriages. They all left by the main door due to the carriages, went around to the right, down the street of the supermarket and went to the beach along a road directly ahead.
----- They were at the beach for about 20 minutes, the deponent and MADELEINE having paddled in the water. During this time the weather changed with a cloudy sky and cold, they went to an esplanade of a café next to the beach, on the left, where they bought five ice-creams and two drinks. Asked, he said that at that place there was an individual playing latin music on a guitar to whom he intended to give some coins, but having none at the time, he didn\'t. That the individual had a neglected and careless appearance, unshaven and somewhat shabby [raggedy]. He was Caucasian, 175cm tall, thin, 70 to 75kg in weight, dark, short hair, almost shaven-headed with grey sides, and not wearing glasses. Wearing a light brown-coloured “kispo” [coat?], with a hood at the back, and dark cotton trousers, not noticing the footwear. He said that he never behaved strangely, nor approached or looked at the children in an ostensible [deliberate/menacing] manner. On returning they left the children at their crèches, as usual, the parents having gone to play tennis or went jogging.


No date Apart from the Kid\'s Club, and the apartment, they only went once to the beach with Madeleine and the twins and for a very short time, since the weather was changeable. In Praia, they only ate an ice cream and went back to the apartment.

Lunch → apartment
RAIN


2:00




on Tuesday there was a slight change given that after lunch, at 13h30, he and KATE decided to take the three children to Paris da Luz, having gone on foot, taking only the twins in baby carriages. They all left by the main door due to the carriages, went around to the right, down the street of the supermarket and went to the beach along a road directly ahead.
----- They were at the beach for about 20 minutes, the deponent and MADELEINE having paddled in the water. During this time the weather changed with a cloudy sky and cold, they went to an esplanade of a café next to the beach, on the left, where they bought five ice-creams and two drinks. Asked, he said that at that place there was an individual playing latin music on a guitar to whom he intended to give some coins, but having none at the time, he didn\'t. That the individual had a neglected and careless appearance, unshaven and somewhat shabby [raggedy]. He was Caucasian, 175cm tall, thin, 70 to 75kg in weight, dark, short hair, almost shaven-headed with grey sides, and not wearing glasses. Wearing a light brown-coloured “kispo” [coat?], with a hood at the back, and dark cotton trousers, not noticing the footwear. He said that he never behaved strangely, nor approached or looked at the children in an ostensible [deliberate/menacing] manner. On returning they left the children at their crèches, as usual, the parents having gone to play tennis or went jogging.


\"of a café next to the beach, on the left, where they bought five ice-creams and two drinks\". 
NOTE: Was this Paraiso? 
Were there CCTV cameras? 
Why be specific about what they bought? 
Why go into detail about the guitarist? 

On returning they left the children at their crèches, as usual, the parents having gone to play tennis or went jogging.


FORMS 2.30 (not signed out)


Kids clubs Beach sunglasses
Ice cream
13:30 → 15:00 and this


3:00

Kids club? 15.15 
? time not so good
? G tennis lessons - ok




Catriona, that in the last days they went to the beach on Tuesday afternoon (01 of May 2007), between 15H30 and 16h30


AFTER 7 pm

Restaurant? object tennis
Russell not E**e felt bad
(5D) was Russ apartment
Food brought up



ROB Tuesday it was the first night we’d all been together, the nine of us, actually, you know, present‿

But I wasn’t there, I don’t recall the Trivia Quiz, that was the night I wasn’t there,

I stayed in the flat with E*** wasn’t well and Jane brought her over’, so if at the end of that statement, that paragraph, it then says ‘this occurred on the night where there was a Trivia Quiz, possibly conducted by the aerobics instructor’, 

GERRY 
Monday or Tuesday MADELEINE had slept for some time in his bedroom with KATE as she [K] had told him that one or both twins had cried making much noise.


Rachael Rog I was ill on the Tuesday night
[/size]

Quote:

KATE
When asked about May 1, 2007 (holiday), she says that on that day they left the apartment around 8:30PM, the same time that was repeated every night. This time was marked at the restaurant as the beginning of dinner, except Saturday, arrival day, when they had dinner at the Millenium.

On this day, May 1, the children were asleep, as she put them to bed around 7:15/7:30 and was sure they were sleeping.




MRS FENN HEARD CRYING 10:30 and 11:45,

Mobile records places Kate in/near 5a between 10:15pm & 10:30 



Quote:

KATE
They arrived at the Tapas around 8:31, taking the direct route, i.e. left by the verandah door, went down to the road and entered the secondary reception of the complex. As they left by the verandah door, this door remained closed but not locked, as this is only possible from the inside. The curtains were closed.

When they arrived at the Tapas, she thinks that nobody from the group was there, but is not sure.

During dinner, every half hour they went to the apartment to check on the children. This was done by KM and Gerry. Does not remember if on this night any of their friends went to the apartment. States that Russell was not present during dinner, so his wife Jane, or somebody took him dinner to the flat. The reason for his absence was that their youngest daughter was sick.

Finished dinner around 11 PM, and together with Gerry, left for the apartment.

She thinks they went to the flat four times: Gerry twice and she twice. Approx. 9, 9:30, 10, and 10:30PM.

When asked about the fact her daughter had been crying on the night of the Tuesday for one hour and 15 minutes, between 10:30 and 11:45, she says it is not true. She says that on that night, after midnight, Madeleine went to their room and said that her sister Amelie was crying, and slep with her and Gerry in their room. She says that before Madeleine appeared in their room, she had already heard Amelie crying, however she did not go to the room, as Madeleine went to the room almost at the same time she head the crying. She does not remember if afterwards she or Gerry went to the childrens’ room, however she states that Amelie cried for a short time.

She says that on that night the twins slept in the room where Madeleine slept, each in their own crib.

When asked if Madeleine slept in their room, she says yes, as mentioned, on the Tuesday night.




I welcome any additional times (mobile, statements etc) that I can add for Tuesday or any other day to edit into the timelines

NOTE: WHO WAS MISSING FROM TABLE AFTER EATING?


Quote:

Najoua Chekaya

She was recruited to give aerobic classes, however she was also asked to carry out a Quiz (game) twice a week (Tuesdays and Sundays) in the Ocean Club Tapas restaurant

and returned to the Tapas Bar for dinner and at 21.00 did a kind of quiz with the guests who were having dinner in the restaurant.

She remembers that last Tuesday at the end of the quiz, she was invited to the table of nine guests who asked her to join them for a drink.

She was at their table for about fifteen to twenty minutes and it was there that she met Mdeleine’s father, who directly invited her to the table, however, she does not know whether Madeleine’s mother was also there.

When questioned, she said that they talked of banalities and she did not notice any aspect or behaviour that was out of the ordinary.
When questioned, she said that during the time that she was there Madeleine’s father did not leave the table, neither did any of the other guests, however, during this time one of the chairs was always empty, that of someone who had had dinner and left, not managing to indicate any identifying element about this person.

When questioned, she said she was at the table from about 21.30 to 21.50




Quote:

Witness statement: Najoua Chekaya
Date: 20 June 2007 
--- In accordance with the statements made by her in this case, on 9 May 2007, she confirms it 
having been on the Tuesday, 1 May 2007, that she was invited to the table of the group of which 
the McCann couple were part, by Gerry himself.
--- That she recalls there being an empty place [seat] at the table, not being certain if it had been 
Madeleine\'s mother\'s place given that she is not sure if they had met each other there at that time.
--- The photographs of the group of the McCann\'s friends having been shown to her, the deponent 
declares that from those photos seen she has some reservations about David Payne [in that] while 
she thinks he was also there, she had not noted his presence.
--- The question asked she declares not being certain who was missing from the group.





Quote:

CLEANER WEDNESDAY MORNING:
Maria Julia S. da Silva.

With respect to her activities performed directly in the apartment, she declares that the last time she entered the apartment was on the Wednesday prior to the events, specifically on the 2nd of May, when she cleaned the apartment. When questioned, she declares that as opposed to what is established, on Thursday the 3rd and due to other chores, she did not have time to collect the garbage bags.

She remembers that when she entered Apartment A on the Wednesday, the parents were inside. After being duly authorized, she entered and carried out her work, because they were already on their way out. While she was in the apartment, there were no children there, and she supposed that they were in the creche. While performing her work, she remembers having noticed that the couple was sleeping in the room located opposite the entrance, where she confirmed the presence of a child’s bed (crib). The room gives onto an outdoor garden by means of a terrace, as it is on the ground floor,. In the room next to the entrance to the apartment there was a bed placed next to the wall (where she supposed the missing child slept), and also the second child’s bed (crib). All these beds were untidy at the time, meaning that they had been used. She also declares that in the room next to the entrance was another bed that had not been used.

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Re: Thursday was different (and, more importantly, so was Tuesday)

Post by Verdi on 10.11.17 15:01

@aquila wrote:
@Verdi wrote:More importantly - so was Tuesday different!
The word I find strange in the campaign is 'routine'. A seven day holiday apparently has to have an embedded (sorry for the pun) routine.
Couldn't agree more - it's occured to me many a time over the years.

A weeks holiday with children.  You meet up with other happy campers for new arrivals talk, it takes a while to the explore the locality, find your feet, look at the eateies and bars.  A walk to the beach, play with the kids at the playground, suss out the leisure facilities available, put your name down for sports activities, book the kids in the childcare facillities, find the local supermarket and touristy joints.  Take a city tour to see what's on offer.

That's two days accounted for.

Apart from getting out of bed in the morning and getting back at night - hardly routine!

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Re: Thursday was different (and, more importantly, so was Tuesday)

Post by aquila on 10.11.17 16:15

@Verdi wrote:
@aquila wrote:
@Verdi wrote:More importantly - so was Tuesday different!
The word I find strange in the campaign is 'routine'. A seven day holiday apparently has to have an embedded (sorry for the pun) routine.
Couldn't agree more - it's occured to me many a time over the years.

A weeks holiday with children.  You meet up with other happy campers for new arrivals talk, it takes a while to the explore the locality, find your feet, look at the eateies and bars.  A walk to the beach, play with the kids at the playground, suss out the leisure facilities available, put your name down for sports activities, book the kids in the childcare facillities, find the local supermarket and touristy joints.  Take a city tour to see what's on offer.

That's two days accounted for.

Apart from getting out of bed in the morning and getting back at night - hardly routine!
Why is so much emphasis placed upon bath and bedtime, milk and biscuits, bedtime stories, cuddles, songs and tiredness?

Editing to add: to offer milk and biscuits would take more than one trip to a local supermarket.
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Re: Thursday was different (and, more importantly, so was Tuesday)

Post by Keitei on 10.11.17 18:37

@aquila wrote:Why is so much emphasis placed upon bath and bedtime, milk and biscuits, bedtime stories, cuddles, songs and tiredness?

To show what good, attentive & caring parents they are or it never happened the way the tale was told = GUILT?

Tiredness to show what a full, happy day the children had in the creche. thumbsup

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Re: Thursday was different (and, more importantly, so was Tuesday)

Post by aquila on 10.11.17 18:49

@Keitei wrote:
@aquila wrote:Why is so much emphasis placed upon bath and bedtime, milk and biscuits, bedtime stories, cuddles, songs and tiredness?

To show what good, attentive & caring parents they are or it never happened the way the tale was told = GUILT?

Tiredness to show what a full, happy day the children had in the creche. thumbsup
These good, attentive & caring parents must have made several trips to the local supermarket to buy milk when their children ate cereal, drank milk each evening and didn't go for breakfast at the Millenium.
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Re: Thursday was different (and, more importantly, so was Tuesday)

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 10.11.17 19:34

Article by the Madeleine McCann Research Group, 10 November 2017

This is a brief response to HideHo’s article about Thursday (and Tuesday).

Reference should be made to MMRG’s article about what really happened to Madeleine, here:
https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t14249-what-really-happened-to-madeleine-mccann-was-she-killed-on-sunday-29-april?highlight=sunday

As HideHo herself has pointed, the one – the only one – truly independent confirmation that Madeleine was alive that week is the statement of a cleaner, Fatima Maria Serafim da Silva Espada.


She testified in writing as follows: .

She states that [she saw all five members of the McCann family] on Sunday, 29th April, just before she finished her morning work shift (13.30) as she had the afternoon off that day. At about 13.15 she went to help her mother, who was cleaning apartment I of the same block (5) situated on the first floor. She clearly remembers seeing [Madeleine] accompanied by her siblings and mother leave their apartment (5A) and walk to the stairs leading to the floor above. She was very close to them, at a distance of about 1 metre, observing their movements for a few moments because she was charmed by them. Madeleine led the way with a plate (perhaps plastic) in her hand bearing a piece of bread”.

She gave additional details about what Madeleine was wearing that serve to verify that she distinctly saw Madeleine.

It is MMRG’s case that there is no independent evidence that Madeleine was seen after that time, although we do suggest as a strong possibility that the ‘Make-Up Photo’ may have been taken that afternoon.

We have three photos of Madeleine on Saturday 28 April, playing in the Ocean Club playground. We agree with the evidence that the ‘Last Photo’ by the pool was taken on Sunday lunchtime, probably within no more than an hour or so of Fatima da Silva Espada’s sighting.

The only other photo of Madeleine claimed to have been taken that week is the ‘Tennis Balls Photo’. But there are multiple problems in accepting that as a genuine photo from the holiday. Two different people say they took it. On two different days. Besides that, an excellent article by ‘PeterMac’ (LINK) has revealed that Kate McCann’s account of how that photo came to be taken wholly lacks credibility.

Consistent with Madeleine having died on Sunday are the following lines of evidence:

A The complete absence of any of Madeleine’s DNA in Praia da Luz                               
B The absence of any genuine photographs of Madeleine taken after lunchtime on Sunday 29 April
C The absence of any undisputed confirmed sightings of Madeleine after Sunday 29 April   
D Multiple contradictions and inconsistencies in the accounts of the McCanns and their friends about  the events of that week from Monday onwards
E The unconvincing and vague evidence given by creche nanny Catriona Baker about what Madeleine was actually doing in the crèche all week
F Evidence that the children of the McCanns and their friends were cared for, all in one room, from Sunday night onwards
G And clear evidence that the McCanns’ pattern of behaviour changed after Sunday in the following ways:

ON SUNDAY NIGHT

Making a sudden, urgent request to book the Tapas restaurant each night, giving a wholly unconvincing reason for doing so (Was this so they could have a quiet place to discuss and plan their audacious abduction hoax?)


FROM MONDAY MORNING

1 Taking breakfast every day in their own apartment and not with their friends in the restaurant
2 Similarly, taking lunch every day in their own apartment and not with their friends in the restaurant
3 Never being seen out together with the twins from Monday onwards
4 The McCanns using different doors when entering and leaving their apartment.
------------------------
If this analysis is broadly correct, then of all the days we need to be looking at, it is surely what happened on the SUNDAY.
After then, we cannot rely on ANYTHING the McCanns and their friends say about the timelines, or anything else. Each day that week was surely taken up with delivering the twins to the creche, and plotting amongst themselves, and probably with others, on how to deceive the entire world a few days later.
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Re: Thursday was different (and, more importantly, so was Tuesday)

Post by Verdi on 10.11.17 20:32

Good summation!  

To reduce it ever further - there is absolutely no conclusive evidence that Madeleine was seen alive and well after the family's arrival at the Ocean Club on Saturday 28th April 2007 with the exception of the playground and swimming pool photographs.

The cleaner's daughters statement is tenuous, although believable, she does say ..

"She had the opportunity to observe the photos of Madeleine that were being circulated everywhere and has no hesitation in confirming that she saw the child before her disappearance in the company of her siblings and mother and father, although in the latter case she only observed him from a distance."

Bearing in mind the photographs being circulated were of a younger Madeleine, she couldn't possibly have been able to say with any degree of certainty that it was Madeleine she saw.  Nor can it be said without ambiguity that the child she saw was wearing a skirt and ..

"....the type of shoes she was wearing, tennis shoes, light in colour she thinks, which had little lights along the soles, which lit up each time she stepped on the ground".

The new holiday clothes described by Kate McCann could I guess be vaguely described as a skirt but would Madeleine have been wearing flashy tennis shoes with her new posh frock?  Kate McCann makes no reference to the kids having this type of footwear.

Sunday summary in it's entirety is for sure the key element to be scrutinized.

ETA: The Tapas booking, apart from being a private conclave, I believe was designed to give the theoretical abductor the opportunity to abduct. Responsible parents do not leave their very young children alone night after night in a strange place.

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Re: Thursday was different (and, more importantly, so was Tuesday)

Post by Hobs on 11.11.17 21:39

@aquila wrote:
Why is so much emphasis placed upon bath and bedtime, milk and biscuits, bedtime stories, cuddles, songs and tiredness?

Editing to add: to offer milk and biscuits would take more than one trip to a local supermarket.

They have a need to portray themselves as good parents, a need to portray the evening as normal with everyone alive and accounted for.
When someone has the need to portray themselves in a good light they have a reason to.
When someone has a need to portray the idyllic family at bedtime they have a reason to.

They have to set up their alibi,

See what good and loving parents we are
See all the children were alive and well that night
The timing and who did what that night is sensitive to the mccanns.
Bathing is sensitive to the mccanns.
The position of the door is sensitive to the mccanns
The lights being on and off is sensitive to the mccanns.

Those three items can be indicative of sexual activity taking place and it would require further and deeper investigation as to why lights doors and bathing are sensitive enough for the mccanns to include it in their statements.

Rather than stating the door was left slightly ajar, kate goes into detail about the position of the door being different to how they left it, despite both gerry and oldfiel both claiming to have done physical checks which, i would presume meant the door would have been opened and closed again at least one (gerry)

Kate then blathers on about lights whether to turn them on or off, why?
if , as claimed, she couldn't make out Maddie although it was light enough for the other two to have seen her (well gerry at least), then turn a light on.

Did she go into the apartment with all the lights off?

We have still had no explanation as to why Maddie's alleged bed was left perfectly made and looked unslept in whilst the bed under the window had clearly been slept in and, i would have assumed, claimed to have been the bed Maddie slept in.
Since it had clearly been used, what activity i wonder had taken place in that bed that day since the bed would have presumably been made up that morning?

Does it relate to the male sample that had been found on the bed originally claimed to have been semen (and blamed on a small boy) before becoming saliva.

Was there sexual activity on that bed which relates to bathing, doors and lights being introduced i wonder?




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Re: Thursday was different (and, more importantly, so was Tuesday)

Post by Verdi on 11.11.17 23:37

@Hobs wrote:Does it relate to the male sample that had been found on the bed originally claimed to have been semen (and blamed on a small boy) before becoming saliva.
Back to the UK's Forensic Science Service !!!

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Re: Thursday was different (and, more importantly, so was Tuesday)

Post by Phoebe on 12.11.17 0:29

@ Hobs excellent observation re. the lights. Poor Kate looks and looks at the bed and can't quite make out whether she is seeing Madeleine or the bedding yet Gerry can see so clearly (in the same lighting conditions) that it causes him to linger for a few minutes watching his sleeping daughter and admiring how beautiful she looked!
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