"What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

It would be pretty easy for the PJ to find out if there was a high tea or not.
Why would Barros say there was if there wasn't?

crusader wrote:It would be pretty easy for the PJ to find out if there was a high tea or not.
Why would Barros say there was if there wasn't?

Tony did some detailed research on the high tea.  I will look for thread.

Steven Cova catering manager was absent from Portugal between 29th April and 2nd May, Sunday to Wednesday.
So did they contact him by phone.
The booking was arranged by the receptionist Luisa Coutinho anyway.

crusader wrote:So did they contact him by phone.

My thoughts exactly, yes of course it could be the only logical conclusion.

No point trying to implicate all and sundry for no reason but obfuscation.

This plays right into the hands of forum critics.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Madeleine McCann was booked in every day at the Lobster club, the twins were booked in every day at the Jellyfish Club.


I accept that. Richard D Halls film raised the logical point of WHO was most likely to have been picked up first, the Twins or Madeleine?


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Do we have a match in the Phone records that he called Cove?
That would prove your theory.

From Luisa Courtinho Statement 


She remembers that on Sunday 29th April one of the elements of the group arrived with the child Madeleine McCann, she does not know his name and can only say that he was male and tall and thin and that he approached her to request a booking for the whole group, for the whole week and always at 20.30.


I see only two possible reasons.
They were not wanting to Trek to the Millenium any more.
Or something else changed their minds.

If there was a phonecall to the catering manager, Steven Cova, it would have been made from the reception, there is no record of Cova's phone number. I can't personally see why it makes a difference who made the booking, who took the booking and who authorised the booking.
Surely if the catering manager was away for a few day's, someone would cover for him.
The booking was made either on the Sunday or Monday by one or more of the tapas 7.
It's not the employees of the Ocean club who are under suspicion, it's the McCann's.

I don't think there was a phonecall, L Coutinho the receptionist who made the booking, never mentioned a phonecall, only that she managed to make the bookings requested.

It would be logical to assume that in Mr Cova’s absence, she had his Authorities to organise the Block booking.

Cove never got a call, and that would explain why.

Sunday and Monday booking sheets for the Tapas Bar are missing from the PJ Files. Different paper formats were used after the ‘Abduction’ was reported. It is assumed because the PJ took the Originals.

So which version of the PJ Files did Kate read which had her famous ‘ ‘Note about being close to the Apartment’ in it? 

Did they send her a ‘Specially prepared’ copy I wonder?

All this only reinforces the preferred stance of the press and media and the die hard McCann support network .... 'the sardine munching beer swilling incompetent Portuguese yokels botched the investigation'.

Well I don't buy it.

I have to distance myself before I blow a gasket.

The possibility that the Receptionist called her Manager for permission, and so getting a TIME on Sunday when that happened from the Telephone Company has born no fruit. We can only guess it was around 09:00? This was when Guests used to Queue up to Book.

Steve is noted in the Margins of the Tapas Bookings as having Authourised any extra places.

But no Sunday or Monday Booking sheets are in the PJ released Files.
Probably because of ‘Ermittlungstaktischen Gründen?’
Investigational tactical reasons?

first an investigation starts with very little, and it results in starting to decide what the first part of a timeline you need, usually most will have happened in 24 hours before something becomes known, only if you get enough information you will go further back. there are even 3 separate parts under investigation, the period before, during and after a possible crime has taken place. 

the first two are usually taken as one at the start, because you can use a set time that it became known a possible crime did take place. the separation is usually a bit later.

you do not know what happened, who did what, who tells porkies or is telling the truth, or at least their own concept of a truth. 
but we can not have both, we can not say all told lies and use the same words as gospel. 

something little as the arrangements of the tapas dinners, the chef of arrangements was not there, and usually there will be another person that will stand in for the chef. it does not mean that the first witness proves there was a phone call, it could be just his concept as what was usual to happen, if something was asked by guest outside the guidelines, a higher rank in the hierarchy would be able to decide about it.

we have no idea what the first witness really can and does know. how much is from past experience, because 'we always do such thinks in that way or manner' or he truly does know someone indeed has taken a phone and made a call to the chef steve, and ask his verdict. 

there is information chef steve was not there, so could not have been asked on the spot to deal with the question. but there is simply no information if there was a phone call to steve, or another person, or that another member of the personnel could decide as if it was a decision like the steve would have made. 

but has it anything to do at all with anything, only if you choose to think all and everything that week was a lie, but that means you can not use anything else, because to make it into that, you can not trust anything and it could also not become facts at all. 

and there was the tapas restaurant, more a kind of grill restaurant, guest could book there, there was a maximum amount of plates for guest of mark warner. there was staff working. there was a cook.

what is missing is who have been all these guests of mark warner, well a bit we know because the pj took the reservations and pro forma billing documents. and after that it becomes interesting. 
you can not pay so much staf as they had and a cook and the rest for 20 plates an evening, so who have been the other guests each night. who are they, and why does no one of them came out to tell about their experiences. we know of some other mark warner guest the balu and berry party and the jenssens who made use of the bar and take away, and changed places with each other because there was no room for booking them all. 

why do i think there must have been a lot more transfer of people in that area, because you can not run a restaurant on 20 plates a day in that setting, and the only restricted number was for mark warner guests, but not the others as far we know.
but there are little snippets about the tapas bar and the restaurant who call it busy. and they even say they held a quiz night. but when you look at the times and kind of people on the booking sheets, there are early ones and some with children, the early ones are usually not the people who take part in quiz nights and people with children under 5 would usually not stretch a meal out into late hours, 9 o' clock would be a bit late for such young ones, the very young is even easier you could hold them in a buggy a sleep or on your lap. 
but all in all it is not very likely to stay around with tired young children night after night. 

so the pj got a booking sheet, but did they got a booking sheet from the tapas bar and restaurant, no, they got a booking sheet of the mark warner bookings. it was that one who had the names of the mccanns on it.

there is no guest list of others who had booked and dine there that week, the tapas bar and restaurant was part of the ocean club , not mark warner only at all. 

and that is a bit of an overall problem in this case. the lack of a full insight in who was where, and did not belong to the mark warner bunch. there are guest listings of the full ocean club, not complete, there looks to be no real checking in who was in and not of the owners, and not known guests, as the apartment 5j shows.

the sports and child care arrangements are mostly in the files only from the mark warner company. but when you did read up at the time when you could book with another company you could do that too, thomas cook for probably the uk, and neckermann was still around in the netherlands at that tame, but their guest review also talked about doing things, but it never became clear how that was arranged, what child care was there for these guests, could they use the creches too, could they book freely at any restaurant including tapas and millenium. could they book for tennis and water sports too.

so there is quite a large group who can tell something if they wanted, or when they had been asked, but going by the names it never happened. 
but it could be people from these groups who can tell who and how many have been in the tapas bar. 
the overall stance is that it was not that quiet in the tapas bar or the restaurant part. 

and i do not find it very strange, because other travel companies have been the concurrent and would prefer to distance themselves from trouble. even from the ocean club parts you see it shown, they found it a matter for mark warner, not so much the ocean club. all heads have been out there on thursday evening late, and already in distancing mode. and i would expect that. 

it is the standard mode in tourist business, if something goes bad, keep it out of your garden. all will go of immediately into push away mode. so the manager that said no break inn, the translating silvia , who was not there to be in her finest manners. robbed from het free evening because some probably dumb and drunk tourist has a lost child walking about somewhere.

and when you use all the statements with that push it out of our garden line of thinking, and what would be just the standard habits of running the ocean club, it tells mostly a story of we have not seen anything, we are not sure about anything, go away, it is not our problem but theirs. 

you will get the same responses when there has been a fatal accident in a large company and that company could get into a negative spiral. because all these people who works there get also payed by that company, all they have is based on that being payed. 
these people do know for themselves they have no role in what happened and that is usually enough to try to keep a distance. 

and because it was so early about an abduction of a very young girl, that was something that has very little left to be wanted to be associated with. the other possibility what most would have had in their minds was, just lousy parents, you wanted to have free time do wine and dine without their kids, so they got that coming for them. it was their mistake, not of the people working at the ocean club. 

you can not use statement analysis on these statements, at least not in the you tube populair version of it, and you always have to paint the full picture, who is telling what and are there 'why's' that lay outside the scope of the affairs you are interviewing them about. usually there are. 

also because it was a timeline pretty early set in stone by the mccann's, all these workers could feel free to keep distancing on, because they had all each other as their alibi, so they not only know they had themselves nothing to do with it all, the others who had been directly around them could not have been part of it. 

but we simply cannot paint a good picture of that night in the tapas bar and restaurant, was it really so silent? look at the older pictures, how many tables, yes it was early season, but others speak of a much busier place. 
and there is no logic in pay so much personnel and only let 20 guests in that restaurant, if it was mark warner who would not have paid any bills over 20 plates, it would be offered to eat there for paying on their own. and we have no idea who ever have been guest in the bar itself. you could pay contant. there was no active screening who got in to the bar in the evening, the reception was not manned after 19.00 hours. 

but there is more, it was very early made known it was all a mark warner affair, their guests, their misery to get rid of. the mccanns had only a client relation with mark warner, and mark warner already had bad publicity on their 'so good' child care arrangements. and there are a lot of very strict rules and regulations for schools, but not for these kind of child minding things. so there is very little to weigh them on in quality, it is not school time, it is holiday time. people have of course expectations about it, but that is from their own way of thinking, it has very little grounded on law. the only thing mark warner had to worry about was what their insurance company had to say about it. 

and minding young kids is not seen as a science, it is fully accepted that any girl you know over 12 years to sit in when you want to go out in the evening hours of the weekends. very stupid even, but only after something goes wrong people start to think about that, but not so much. most will just ask the girls who are at least 14. you never would lent them your car or your credit cards, but kids are no problem. 

very young girls made responsible to handle kids, or leaving very young children alone at home for a short amount of time, it does happen very often, and it does not even goes that often wrong at all. but we like to forget that it does not matter at all when all goes alright, it is only when things go wrong, they usually go very wrong, and with hindsight both would be just stupid. 

people do like to talk themselves into a safe haven, so yes most of what is written and said about leaving 8 children between 9 months and 4 years old alone, and let your hair loose is and was stupid, it is not about the ample minutes all was okay when and if they had been near them, it is about all other time, children of these ages are fully capable to bring harm to themselves. they have proven that for ages. so when awake they need to be in eyesight, when not awake in hearing distance, with so much meters you can reach them in your eyesight in time. parents or legal carers are responsible to that, nothing more nothing less. 

but the people who worked in the tapas bar and restaurant had simply their own job responsibilities. it was not in their sayings to think about child care of clients who they served foods and drinks too. people do stand up and are not telling them why or for how long, it is usually only accidentally they get into knowledge about why their clients do things outside eating, or drinking. 

if it was as silent as the paper works like to show, most would have been busy with doing something that looked useful with their hands, but mostly would have been just talking to each other, with the usual glances at the guest there about. they would not have been studying their clients as lab rats. 

and you cannot use the same wordings to say it all is a lie, and use it to paint the same words into a another story and say they must be true words. if they all told lies, the truth must be different from it, not the same. 
you can not have your cake and eaten it. 

and an investigation needs facts to build out all the lines, you can not endlessly keep on trying to fit theories around, until one sticks for a bit. 

i do know of some information given by the mccanns that can not be seen different than lies, because they retracted it , or just told another very different version of it. 

i would fully think it could be very likely, the ocean club and mark warner had already briefed their own staff into stay out of it, it is not your business, do only answer when a question is asked, and it is okay when you keep your mouth shot, when you are not sure about what things ment. 

the ocean club and mark warner have waited until the pj asked for paperwork, guest lists, etc. and they have responsibilities to their own companies too, they can not earn anything of bad stories about some kid. and you can easily find how both handled it. both did not offer anything freely, the ocean club was directing the pj to mark warner, kept other companies out of it. 

mark warner could not have any bad publicity or the slightest link to their child care, they had to accept even some by the tapas9 for it, who nicely have told why they found the childcare arrangements from mark warner not fitting for them. 
what is nicely followed up with the rumour of 'mark warner did not used nanny walking by- service because of the laying of all the accommodation was to far apart.'  the tapas9 arranged to stay near each other to be able to escape that themselves. so the local working company said it was no safe way to look after children of guests, but the guests thought they could do it even better, than an experienced company, with local knowledge. 

sending the nannies out , is something what was wise, quite some have been very willing in talking to the media, with a lot of their own fantasies in it. girls who only took these jobs, because they could have a lot of nice spare time near a beach, away from home, and free to act as they liked. these jobs are known as 'being payed to party'. 

and the tourist business is set up to give the idea all is simple and easy, no hard decisions in front of a guest, it needs the pretenses of nothing difficult of bad has to be experienced. and when something bad happens they still have to think out for the day after, with the next bunch of guests. 
and from that the only thing i never could understood, was why they kept the mccann's, on the ground of the ocean club, in between the next guests on their holiday, with the extra media attention. giving them a more distant property, with a personal nanny service even, would have been easily be sold as giving the mccann's rest and privacy, out of confrontations of having to see all the other happy faces of holiday guests. 
from pr standpoints i can not see anything useful to keep them for so long at block 4. 

mostly for the picture it did give to other guests, who would have seen police officers walking around, media in their way, and a family that had to be tiptoed around, but was present on the beach, the village, the tennis courts, the creche, it is not something most people would be favouring during their holiday times. 

mark warner must have been able to get in a 48 hours, there was no conflict of interest as in their company was to blame directly, same for the ocean club. it was very early out, it was as the story was told, by their own will of these guest to leave the children alone. 

and again, there was and is a accommodation to serve food and drinks to costumers, no one ever have get out with anything that can make you to start thinking it was just an empty building, or that is was closed for business in that week. so the basics are there. 
and if there was no daily tapas restaurant serving, what did take place than, and what are the facts for that. there are been many reviews about the ocean club and the experience in the tapas bar and that restaurant from around that time, that do not differ from what is become to known from the staff and tourist statements. even the restriction on number of plates to serve for mark warner have been part of these. and many places well before that specific week in 2007. 

and no, in europe it is never allowed to just ask for all phones used in a so large a time span , without a prosecution officer signing that of, and it is easy to find in the files, portugal has the very usual head shy officers, very normal, you step so much in privacy of common people you have at least give a sound reason to make it even possible to look at phone connections. 

also why would a call between 2 people also be made on a company phone at all. it is easy if one is directly near you, but in 2007 a local call with a mobile device was not that high in prices, and often a lot would have been used to use what was in the pocket. and prepaid cards was far more the norm, so it would not at all be easy if both ends have made use of a pre paid card. in 2007 it was not needed to register your number to name in most eu countries, and it was certainly not needed to be a criminal to use one. 
common, the complete dutch police forces used them, payed by head quarters because radio or c2000 was both not reliable, the first not private the second worked not out of cities all the time. 

and yes you could just buy a cheap card with just another number in supermarkets, the post offices, or wholesalers, or phone stores. 

so even there was a call, you can not very easily proof it was made as 'the call', and you also end up with the kelly bar receipt effect, multiple customers or calls in a same time frame. and even with the numbers given, you do still have no knowledge of the conversation. 

and i have been in many situations, that others who had themselves to ask others for permission, i had not. 
and most people talk and think often a bit too much from their own positions. so if the one had to ask, the other maybe already had that permission, because that was normal practice when the chef was not around. 

and what would it really bring to the case as factual information, more as the statements about it already do. 
no phone call is needed when permissions to decide already had been instated before the chef steve gone of duty. proving a call was made does tell nothing about the conversation. so usually this is typically seen as time wasting exercises, that have no direct relation to a possible crime at that time in investigation.
only the facts and circumstances has to guide the investigation, not all possible fantasies you can think of. because most never be part of it all. even a investigation hypotheses or theory goes by facts and circumstances. 

even if luisa was deciding outside her job standard, would that tell you anything at all. and would a call between a number that could have been maybe used, or not, by luisa to a number that maybe could be used by steve the chef, or not proof anything happened or not? 

there are many snippets information in many different statements, about activity in the tapas bar and restaurant. i think the bigger problem is, the more exact timings you do nee for a timeline, to see what could have been happening also, people need time to do things. i do think that the group of the tapas 9 was in the tapas restaurant that evening, but only each individual is not there all the time, and also that honest about it all.  and that stays the same matter, if you look for an earlier time any possible criminal event could have taken place. 

and it will always end that their timeline is also their downfall, unless they all retract it. what would make the witnesses themselves breaking the law and become a criminal. you can not present it so surely to the world and retract is as being mistaken by accident. 

and i do think too, that the pj on points is mislead by the companies around, to make it a mark warner at the ocean club show, a lot of other counter material never surfaced. i understand why, but in the ethical sense, was this really needed when it was about one little girl. i think a true victim, that can never have been able to be responsible for anything herself, she does certainly do deserve justice, and that means all the help that is needed for it. 

and there is something else, if your lines of thinking are in the line of a full inside job, it means it is a true one off scenario, no chance to see the perps doing it again and again. 
if you go for a lot of outsiders the chance of more and even more serious crimes over and over is more realistic. 
there even is a line of thinking one bad apple had an active hand in almost all serious criminal events in southern portugal and abroad during many years. and it is easy and feels probably also very safe, to lock up one, because on or few nasty people is easier to think about. 

i still have no preference for when it all happened, just because facts and circumstances are not enough available to do that, most likely i have changed positions, i still think it is an insider case, with a lot of mingling in of others after the facts and most of them protect their own companies and personal life. but is it possible on that one and only thursday evening of may 3 2007, i say yes it is possible. can i prove it , no, it still needs to much speculation. still to little facts and circumstances. and because of the same, it is pretty easy to make write up for any moment after the sunday, but the earlier means, you have to make a lot more people telling rubbish or dead out telling lies. and i can not always found a agreeable reason why these people would do that.

most common people do like to stay away of criminal matters, at least until a culprit is in view, brought in by others. people are directly and immediately very curious, filling the gaps is human, but offering them in a statement to the police takes usually even for the eagerly fantasist more time. they have more chance to end up in the media. and will end up with some extra gravy of course.

well are people more eager to help when it is like in this case, just a little child. 

on the other side people do take much for granted, if you are there on every monday, they would not look around if you are really there the next one, but when you ask did you have seen mister x, it is easy to hear, well he must be somewhere, he always is. and if that is in the moment when all are there, it is easy to check, but when that only happened in your mind is is not so easy to tell if mister x was there on a specific monday, or not. the more the days are a bit the same, how easier you are taken for granted.

i see my neighbours going to work most days, but do i really see that, or do i see them only leave their home. they once told me they do work, but that does not mean i really see them go to work, each time at around the same time that they also really do go out to their work. 
there are a lot of bits in the statements that are the result of the same. 

and what is the true quest you after, you want to make a timeline, because you need to look for possible gaps, gaps something could or not could have taken place in relation to a possible crime. you want first to take out as many of the people with the easy access, so you want to know if persons x, or y and c and k could have been in or around your possible crime scene. 

the result of the statements are not enough to be sure who of the people near the child was 'when' around that evening and if that give enough time for more specific deeds. so even if they all tell lies, it does still not tell anything about the question you was after. from the staff it are also not direct statements, but counter statements, the stories as given by the tapas 9 versus bystanders. both are never proof in itself, but they also did not deliver near enough the same story lines. the same goes for the second circle of counter statements, people who have been near 5a, without direct contact/connection with the tapas 9. 

the tapas 9 have also told at different times stories with differences, that can not be explained by simply being mistaken. 

there is no need to prove they did wine and dine in the tapas, you want to look if they could have a role in the missing of their child. the complete tapas restaurant saga is not strong enough to fill holes with facts and circumstances. the timeline is still useless. and the tapas 9 was not interested to bring clearance to do a reconstruction of the night. 
at most we can make a bit of a sketch in the 3 series of statements and lay them together, but they are not equal. 

the tapas restaurant affair has no direct influence on anything that could have happened in 5a itself against a child. so even if they have never been there at all, but elsewhere it would not make the crime if one truly happened different. 

and the result of this will always play havoc if a case as this ends up in a court, it does not matter against who. it will just ends up with who is the best in story telling and believed the most by judges and jury if there is one. not the way i like justice see played out.

and why would chef steve be suspicious of a wish of some guests. it was stil low season, and without the tapas 9 it still had 11 plates to sell. it was not about extra places, it was a question for a block booking for the rest of the week. and really 20 plates a night between 19.00 hours and 22.00 hours, is little, the tapas 9 have been booked for the late round. usually kitchens close an hour before closing hours, going by their workings schemes, that would be most likely 22.00 hours, an hour for cleaning up the kitchen and prepare for the next day is very common. 
they normally let guest just line up for the front desk in the morning. 
there is old footage of brunt inside the restaurant part in 2007, they had much more than only 20 chairs.
it was just a mark warner agreement. the amount of plates is even different in reactions of other holidaymakers well before and after may 2007.

these sheets are usually send to the account office, so they could be checked and billed to the clients, so any extra's would be payed before leaving. so they probably no longer have been at the reception at all. high season the would probably collected even more times every day. holiday companies are not the ones who give you freebies, if they can escape it. look at the date in the guest list of the ocean club, and extra's are behind at the right side.

The Ocean club was a hybrid of a hotel, renting out accomodation using privately owned apartments with sports and eating facilities, sold to tour companies across Europe, who in turn on-sold holidays to vacationers, be it for beach or golf based holidays. A commercial enterprise would need good billing facilities to capture all of the small, daily activities on chits (billing notes). Mark Warner was one of many British holiday tour operators. 
As stated above , 


these sheets are usually send to the account office, so they could be checked and billed to the clients, so any extra's would be payed before leaving. so they probably no longer have been at the reception at all. high season the would probably collected even more times every day. holiday companies are not the ones who give you freebies, if they can escape it. look at the date in the guest list of the ocean club, and extra's are behind at the right side. 

By interrogating the computer data files, rather than 'reading' photo-copied forms and sheets, one would see a fuller, more comprehensive picture. 
Unfortunately, the totality of billing was never fully captured in the PJ files and like the analysis of the hotel room bookings or of the Avis car rentals, it often raises questions rather than providing affirming evidence of either innocence or affirmative guilt. The PJ did not capture the Ocean club or Avis data files then in 2007, but I am sure they would do it now in 2023

Thanks [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] for explaining the format of assessment the police would take, to form a timeline of events. I note the McCanns presented 2 timelines themselves, so it must be of importance to their 'truth'.

Cammeriga wrote:Thanks [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] for explaining the format of assessment the police would take, to form a timeline of events. I note the McCanns presented 2 timelines themselves, so it must be of importance to their 'truth'.

I believe the MCanns and their team presented FOUR (4) timelines.

Two on the night, written on the sticker book cover, which are radically different in content
Then one much longer one done on a computer and printed out, on 3 sheets of A4, which is different again but fills in too much detail
Then yet another one was found in Kate's possession.  Less well known and it is tricky to track down a copy of it

Also worth a look: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=885814576299474

Wrong Child written into the impossible Timeline when checked against later Statements.

If it's true another timeline was found in Kate's possession, and I'm not convinced it is.
It's more of an indication that Madeline was alive up until Thursday evening.

Think of it this way Crusader.

Either since Sunday they spent all their time and efforts to create false sightings and leads just in Case Madeleine was going to have an Accident on Thursday night.

Or the earllier Death on Sunday or Monday was the cause of it all.

Unless anyone has a better solution?

What are the efforts they used to create false sightings.

Here we go again, leave the Portuguese official investigation documentation to gather more dust whilst focus gravitates towards social media.

Rule No. 1 - Don't believe anything you read across social media without cross checking and cross checking again again and again - you will almost certainly not locate an official source.

IF another written version of a timeline was found amongst Kate McCann's papers it would be in the PJ Files, just like every over timeline. On that point alone, the rumour has it said timeline was found within days of Madeleine McCann's reported disappearance .... papers?!? She was on holiday for crying out loud, what papers would she have apart from a month old edition of the Snaily Wail?



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More credence to the sardine munching beer swilling botched bungled Portuguese official investigation.

some even talk about 5 timelines, but i still have not seen a complete copy of that 4th.

but besides these their own statements are also a timeline, al least we can use these, for the tapas 7 the rogatories do deliver information. the book is usable, but only to get to a result they have been not very eager to get the truth out at all. 

after redwood rewritten timeline and matt was no longer on tour of duties that night, we at least may conclude all signs in other statement to put matt in around 21.30 are also not correct information. 

and for me all these words makes it al least a lot more likely , they had no pro assistance until the case became known after the phone call to the gnr. 

peter, isn't that third timeline the result of the mingling of that first 'detective kind of agency' control risk, they handed a wacky story as they concluded it had happen. all the pj had to do was sign it of.

it is down under the early pj analysis of all timelines known at the time, in this link.

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The McCann's had gone on holiday, they didn't go on holiday to kill Madeleine, they could easily have done that at home.
I believe Madeleine was a much loved and wanted Daughter.
What they did after Madeleine had an accident was to cover their own backs,
I will never believe they could act as if all was normal for that length of time knowing Madeleine was dead.

Matters are presented for consideration, if an individual thinks a particular aspect plausible they will mull it over or store in the sub-conscience for future reference.

Then along comes another theory and another and another and another, all dealt with in the same way individually.  

Over a long period of time all the theories are completely blown out of proportion, amassed to form a mammoth conspiracy theory with little or no evidence to substantiate, apart from an over imaginative mind or groupings to develop mischief - intentionally or deliberate matters not, the effect is the same.

Then one day the observer/participant starts to realise they have been dragged into a labyrinth of deception - brainwashed if you like, they realise how preposterous the whole presented concept has become.  

Then and only then they start to rebel against the prevailing conspiracy theory which in turn can be interpreted as hypocrisy but hypocrisy it is not - think of it more as an awakening, clearing the mind of all the debris collected along the way and stored in the sub-conscience for future consideration.

Always a good idea to keep a clear head, thus eliminating the possibility of being swept away by pressure and/or volume.

DCI Andy Redwood might call it a revelation.

As you say crusader, the notion the family took that holiday with murder a forethought is utterly ridiculous.

Back to basics, the family took a short break on the Algarve in late spring 2007 with a group of friends.  Kate McCann raised the alarm that her precious daughter Madeleine had disappeared from her bed around 22.00h on Thursday 3rd May 2007.

They are the evidenced facts presented by the official investigation conducted by the Portuguese Judiciary.  Work from there using only facts and evidence as the tool for study.

NOTE:  The Portuguese Judiciary is the leading force investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, not Germany nor the UK nor any other territory.

Addendum:  Members are advised to exercise extreme caution when sharing information privately - especially revealing an e-mail address, I speak from experience here.  Never forget, anyone met across the internet is an anonymity and can make-out to be anything or anyone they like.

Always ask yourself, why is this anonymity contacting me privately - why do they want to converse with me off the radar.

Look after yourselves - you know it makes sense.

i never have seen facts that would dictate it was a murder case, there are circumstances that can tell about a child that died. but i wil give the write up that would place everything happening on that one and only evening of may 3 2007. and yes there are bits that are a bit speculative and parts that are fully speculation. 

 but i made it long ago, because crusader, who does not know this write up was made at the time, ask why it could not simply has happened on thursday, i forgot the exact question. but just give it a go.
it is not written with compassion for the faint hearts.

i could do the same for each day after sunday, all would have use or more or less blancs, that i have to fill with sheer speculation. i am not a fan of speculation, because each different what if's just can make it another story, but i will give it a go for the thursday.

children do die, most from illnesses or accidents, for an illness or even a kind of poisoning, nothing ever showed for me into that. 
accidents do happen and most just ending up well even accidentally as accidents happen. so it is very likely all these children have been left alone for at least some time, how long is not really clear (1), madeleine was pretty small for a girl of nearly 4, her body normal til a leaner side. there are enough earlier pictures to see her as an active child. happy enough, pretty normal for her ages in pictures.

because of her height there was indeed thinkable that a unlucky fall of that sofa or that height could end up in fatal injuries, if you take the dog findings, as in alerts and what was found as a result from it, as in blood in grout and under the tiles it could fit with a fatal head injury, but most injuries of these kinds take a bit of time to end up dead. 
there is a but, a large study about falls in young under 5 uk children made clear children do not die that often or that easily of a fall, the height must be from higher up, as in at least as high as the child is. but tragic falls do happen and mostly because a fatal head injury  exists. 

there was always the question hanging about the dog alerts and the findings and how much time it could take to make dog alerts so much later possible. well for me that was a difficult question too, but the dogs both did alert near a spot that would agree with a fatal accident as a result of a fall from some height. 
children are known to climb on chairs, backrest and armrests of sofa's. 
if that sofa indeed had its original place a bit away from the windows and curtains behind it, it could have given enough space to fall behind it. there even was a sharp enough edged windowsill, that could be easily cleaned after an accident, but also is known as a hazard  around young children and heads. 

i have done a lot of baby sitting in my early years, and have also 4 much younger siblings, i always found it remarkable the children already put to bed and said sleeping, until the parents closed the door behind them, and in under a minute the gang was fully awake. not sleepy heads or suddenly waken at all, just full trottle young children. they always would be told who was minding then in that evening, but they used it as their entertainment to the full.

so it could from that experience be a accident just after the parents had left, because she was smal about a 90 cm tall. she could hardly have seen over the lower part of the patio walls outside. so lets speculate a bit more and she wanted to see out of 5a at the backside, to see where her parents did go. the sofa itself and the small table in the corner would be the only things easy to reach out to get enough heigt to take a look over the walls around the patio. the chairs of the dining table would be a bit to far and could be even a bit to heavy for her to bring nearer the window.

but such an event could have happened any time until about a 15 minutes before the first check would be made, if it was made and i think there was at least one check that evening. 

after doing a lot of reading up on again dog alerts and decomposition, i am satisfied time is no longer a factor for that, as in a body must have been present for a certain amount of time. even when a body was removed very quickly and i think it is most likely a body was in situ for at least 10 tot 15 minutes. fatal head injury comes with slowing down of bodily function and that takes some time. but there have been still left bodily relics behind in the form of blood, and eddy was fully trained on decomposing blood too, probably even more often used in his training, because it is easy to get. you do not need blood from a corpse to train a dog, blood wil perfectly decompose when it ends up outside a living body too. 

because of the porous nature of the grout between the hard baked style tiles of the floor it could be soaked up, head injuries often gave a lot of late secondary bleeding through ears, mouth and eyes, it is at least enough to form the kind of puddle you need to making it able to fill up the porous grout, it would have take enough blood, and some time to establish that. 

there could be enough left as residual blood and common maintenance of the floor would keep it even from to become to much dried out, what would stop decomposition of the blood. 

did it happen, i do not know that, but the possibilities and circumstances are available to make it all happen.

from this point on it get more speculative even. and i used mostly my interpretation of who the mccanns are as people and what i do know about them.

i think ik could be possible that the father found his just died daughter behind that blue sofa, a young professional, a son of thirst immigrants to the uk, who made it already to a doctor, had just set his first steps in building the good life, had found a well presentable house, had 3 young children, a competent enough wife, who also was wel educated. he would already have known he could make it into the academic world. 
he is also a proud man, into competition, in sports, in his work. has friends, did some work for the government. and just a silly accident could ruin that all, because the world would hear he left his 3 very young children alone, to wine and dine on a short holiday in the sun. he never ashowed to be a guy that could take a step back to see what would be best to do, all in him is just do something.

and i have seen many strong people complete lost the plot with less drastic events , than loosing a child. 

and yes, i can see in him as a person someone who just in an instant decide to take matters in his own hands. he is a doctor, he would have been able to see what damage resulted in the dead of the child, he would have from that have known he could no longer do anything for his daughter. 

i always find it remarkable how people could be able to make what ends up as a very stupid decision in so little time. and if he indeed realized no one could safe his child, i think he would be a kind of person that just would start doing things he thinks best. little eye beyond a moment in time. 

so yes i can see him as a person that decides to a quick clean up, hiding his daughters body in a large blue sports bag, cleaning the area of all visible traces. put that with his daughter in the bag, and placed it or behind the sofa, or in their bedroom. 

for him it could have been a moment, that being honest would not make anything better, his daughter is lost forever, his family life, his professional career, he could have thought he would loose that all, when the uk tabloids got the event in their fingers. 

even being catholic can play a role in it, i grey up in that world too for some years and dead is not that very important in itself, the afterlife is much more present in it. also if you look a bit back in his own family, his grandfather was besides owner of the pub in ireland , also the local undertaker, that too could have given a more distant feeling about being dead. 

all that he had to do was keeping up appearances until the next check, he met outside jez, and could have made use to furthermore calm himself. 

the next check would have been 21.30, and would be done by kate, but it feels only logic there never came a 21.30 check, because of how long gerry was gone, and seen outside but very near 5a, so 21.45 fits much better.

and there is reason enough from counter statements that the alarm was earlier than 22.00 hours, gerry made it even much later, by stating at 22.03 on his watch he notified kate it was time for het to do a check, no others have said anything about that exact timing or the noticing of kate.

it would resulted in kate not being able to find her daughter and the alarm got out.

it resulted in all except jane who still was in 5d, and diane who stayed at the table made a run to 5a, not one of the others got into 5a, per fiona her declarations, and all there left for at proximal 10 minutes to seach near 5a. 

when fiona came back kate was must more distraught even, and that could be simply because she just had heard her daughter died, and must be hidden because she otherwise would loose the twins too. my own impression is the behaviour kate has shown after the alarm was more likely to be expected as mourning, than a missing child that could be found. gerry had ample time to tell her some of it, before fiona got back, and probably he even was able during that time to bring the body out to a next resting stop. 
if you want to explain the smith sighting with it too.

it was not very important if the body was found by searchers, as long as it was away from 5a, it could probably explained as the result of an action of a third party. 

and all of that was not very criminal of course, hiding of a body of your own child, that is not so much a crime in itself, it makes little difference to the body itself where it is, and if that is all done by following guidelines, setting the scene of a break in and possible abduction, well as long no one ended up in court for it , it is not very criminal. it is mostly duping a public and the police, but it could easily be covered by how the father had seen his future. a third party without an identity, who only was there to fill a gap. 

when i look at kate as a person, i do not see a bad person. more someone who lost a lot and has no idea how to escape all that started to happen. i cannot see her as putting easily a mask on of nothing happened, not as easy as gerry does. and her behaviour after the alarm does fit far better for a mother who mourns her child. and how different do we expect such feelings between a lost daughter for short terms and for ever. 

and a lot kate spoke out never sounded as a lie to me. she gets very angry when people start with you have killed your kid, she never accepted that, all times someone tried to say to her you killed your kid, she get out with things to say like;

i know it did happen under different circumstances, i know , i was there. 

and for a catholic life does not stop, only this life can stop, but you are supposed to live forever in an afterlife, so even keep going telling she is still alive, is not much to call out as a lie. it also explains maybe the asking for a priest. the prayers for the ones who died are not that different for the ones that are of a unknown faith.

they had the early hours of may 4, some hours to go back to the place gerry left the body, to say their good byes, to understand no one would have been able to save her, even if they had standing next to her, this could have been the same result. doctors can phantom that much easier or better earlier than most others.
they even could find a place for the next part of the travels the body had to make.

but also the story of the abducted child could be as good as an excuse to mourn for her. 

i always have a problem to see a kate being able to hide her feeling for longer time, to play the happy nothing is wrong in my world i am on a holiday and that means fun. also she already lost one, she would do anything to keep the others. 

most searches had no true training at all, for looking for a lost young girl, and most would have put out of their mind they could find only a body, most would have looked for places a living child could reach, so fenced of properties would escape all eyes, most heights would escape eyesight. most already had a day of activities behind them. and had it mattered if the body was found, if you remember how avid they already had been with pointing fingers on the unknown party. 

with a little help of the friends they could make the outlook of that evening as 'normal' as possible, they talked all they did into the responsible parent thing. they only had to say, you did the same stupid thing and are only lucky. it was a unknown territoria, they had no idea what the law would mingle in for all. 

there are hiding places enough, maybe the smith sighting has nothing to do in it all, was the body hidden somewhere in block 5a, there was a lift in block 5, so also a maintenance area, and a blue bag is easy to hide where it is a very common sight. roofs are always overlooked. mark harrison did the math and 50 x 50 cm would be enough to hide a body of these measurements. 

the idea they all had been out there alone is not correct, masses of other people owns properties in that area. gerry had a massive network, al they needed was property offered to them by some other who they know, who would not have to be there, to be used to get their rest or for use when family would fly in. 
what if a brother or sister of gerry had known people who had property there and just decide to arrange the use, they had not to ask if they could hide a body in the fridge for some time, only accept it for a reason they could think of. 

it is still all speculation, i did use the things that are out there, do i have an idea if it al happened in this way, no i have not. but it could have been a way that could be possible, does not need even more than one person to start it all, and after that two. the friends and family could have sniffed out a lot during all that happened after. but it is remarkable what is seen often as accepted in families when bad things happen. 

and if it all started with a child that never could have survived after an freak accident, something the others could understood would not have any different outcome, not even when both parents are doctors, and these same people do know them good enough to have the trust nothing bad from their side has happen, just keep going on would be much easier.  

and if this is a bit near what has happened, it means they did not escape a bad media, at least for a bit of time, they kept the twins, gerry his career did go ahead even better as planned, they still have their home and their freedom. 

only some germans are stepping out of line, but would they have much bad feelings if cb is indeed a very bad apple and  get the tar and fethers, for me he is a too bad apple already for a long time, i do not need 5 extra cases to fiddle that out. i do care about justice, but not so much about figures as cb, or his companions of choice. but there are so many more they own excuses if such a line of events is all the story that is there to be. 

i can not prove most of it, i only did give myself the task to see if i could think of a plausible story, that stayed as much near what is become to be known. where i use i think it is my opinion used for the sake of the write up.

and verdi, i can understand it, if and when you decide to put it in the topic about non restricted theorizing stuff.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
What are the efforts they used to create false sightings?


I was referring to all the 'Possible Abductors' sightings.
Tannerman now Totman
Smithman still undecided on that one personally
Rastaman now Sperry
Woman in Purple being either Jane Tanner / Luisa Todorov


Etc


If the Mccann's had really planned anything in Advance of going on Holiday, they would have done a better job, or?


But as we saw this week with the 'Apology' Story, they are catching themselves.


Constantly.

onehand wrote:and verdi, i can understand it, if and when you decide to put it in the topic about non restricted theorizing stuff.

Not at all, it can stay right here.

Well reasoned food for thought as always.

If it wasn't Madeleine at high tea on Thursday, then who was it.
On Thursday afternoon there were only 4 children at creche, 2 boy's and 2 girls.
Alexander Mann and William Totman, Madeleine and Ella O'Brien, Ella was picked up by her father at 4-30, signed out by Cat nanny.
So 3 children left in creche for Cat to look after, 2 boy's and a girl, Madeleine.
It must have been Madeleine who was alive and well on Thursday at 5-30 at the high tea.

and even the two boys did not take part in the high tea. anyone would remember a early night, because your work was over, no madeleine, means no reason for cat to stay on.