Claim by 'Stevo' - "CEOP show Maddie is missing on 30th April 2007"

@skyrocket1 at 425pm

All of the first 3 dates on the /mccann.html calendar, on the 17 June 2015, linked to the same page i.e. all showed their respective dates 30 April; 13 May; 22 May 2007 at the top and all linked to the identical Find Madeleine page with a single photo of MBM on it, positioned left of centre. 

------NO. The May13th had 2 photos, side by side - i have screen grab showing URL, but cannot upload till I join.

Bottom right (next to) the photo was the caption 'Photograph of Madeleine Mccann' - this would appear to me to be an alt tag to mark the position of the second photo which CEOP planned to upload at some future time. Note the caption disappears on the later appeal pages which show 2 photos.

-------Not a caption but an alt-tag next to graphic that shows an un-resolved image, see coding i posted short while ago

The first calendar date, on /mccann.html, to show the 2 photo appeal page was the 13 June 2007.

incorrect, sorry, not picking on you, but see above

All of the first 3 calendar date appeal pages were changed on the 18 June 2015 to show the later 2 photo appeal page, with 30 April appeal page now showing as 13 May. 

-------Nope, sorry. There is NO 30 April page anymore, it has been removed, at least from the 20070430115803 folder - it now redirects.

This 13 May 2007 appeal page had only one photo - we've seen it clearly and it only changed to 2 photos on 18 June 2015

-------Can you direct me to, or show me, a May 13th capture with only ONE image - only because MINE has TWO

Why not just link the 30 April calendar date (until such time it could be removed) to the original 13 May 2007 appeal page? 

------i think that was what they did originally, and maybe still is, not checked today

Got home excited to see if anyone had objected to my theory. Very few comments, if at all. Same as the response to some of my FB groups posts...its either the way i am saying it, ive offended people by a lot of posts or maybe i am right - so in Tony style

1 - WBM captured ceop.gov.uk/mccann.html and saved it in a time-stamped folder (index if u prefer) called 20070430115803. 

1a - That time stamp is replicated within the source code of mccann.html in BOTH java and html

2 - That particular folder was missing a graphic madeleine_02.jpg which caused my screengrab to show the alt-tag "photograph of madeleine"

3 - The file mccann.html is now missing and the folder redirects,  although links to the now-re-directing folder remain on later captures.

4 - The May 13th folder 20070513XXXXXX contains the madeleine_02.jpg image, this is why May 13 th screengrab shows TWO images

5 - Theory - work-in-progress captured on April 30th

Objections please, i dont mean to offend anyone x

Guest Lord wrote:Got home excited to see if anyone had objected to my theory. Very few comments, if at all. Same as the response to some of my FB groups posts...its either the way i am saying it, ive offended people by a lot of posts or maybe i am right - so in Tony style

1 - WBM captured ceop.gov.uk/mccann.html and saved it in a time-stamped folder (index if u prefer) called 20070430115803. 

1a - That time stamp is replicated within the source code of mccann.html in BOTH java and html

2 - That particular folder was missing a graphic madeleine_02.jpg which caused my screengrab to show the alt-tag "photograph of madeleine"

3 - The file mccann.html is now missing and the folder redirects,  although links to the now-re-directing folder remain on later captures.

4 - The May 13th folder 20070513XXXXXX contains the madeleine_02.jpg image, this is why May 13 th screengrab shows TWO images

5 - Theory - work-in-progress captured on April 30th

Objections please, i dont mean to offend anyone x

I don't object to your theory at all. In fact I agree with it.
I looked at the original April 30 page when it still existed.
I saw no news updates or anything else.
I saw links to PDF files which could have been uploaded at any time after April 30. On April 30, the html codes for the links could have existed on the page, awaiting the PDF's. The PDF's didn't have to be loaded on April 30.
I saw links across the top of the page to other pages in the CEOP domain. The html coding was fine. The pages they linked to were pages which the WBM captured at future dates. That doesn't bother me at all.
I saw one photo of Madeleine - and made note of it. I know it was one photo and only one, because I downloaded it to my work computer wondering if there was any EXIF info on it. There wasn't.
All of the arguments about October and links to news updates and everything else refer to the main CEOP pages that were crawled by WBM, not to the Madeleine-specific page that was captured on April 30.
All of the arguments to me seem like smoke and mirrors, attempting to smudge and obscure what was really there at the time, and what is there no longer.

Statement by the Chief Executive Officer of Wayback Machine

The CEOP Website

Statement released by the Chief Executive Officer of the Way Out Machine (formerly  the Wayback Machine) at 0700 hours BST, 23 June 2015 (time and date subject to confirmation)

On 16 June 2015, a British citizen by the name of Stephen Marsden interrogated the Way Out Machine about the website of a British organisation, the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre (CEOP).

We returned to him the following information:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

On the above date (30 April 2007), a Mr Jim Gamble was the Director of CEOP.

The following day, a Miss Isabelle Mary McFadden sought to confirm that the information was accurate, and our former Office Manager, Christopher Butler, confirmed that this was so at 9.47am. He actually gave out two print-outs of the accompanying pages which had been crawled. Butler referred to, even boasted of, ‘several attorneys a week seeking our services'. He did so given our previous, fabled reputation for accuracy - which has been regularly relied on in court proceedings the world over and resulted in many persons being convicted and, on occasions, jailed.

Due to the timely intervention of a Ms Lizzie Taylor the same day, however, it suddenly dawned on Mr Butler that, on this occasion, the result returned to Mr Marsden was in error.

First of all, both timestamps on the record returned to Mr Marsden were plain wrong.

And the actual archive date for the ‘mccann html’ page was 31 July 2007, not 30 April 2007.  
 
We apologise sincerely for having made this error which led to so many people wasting their precious time on pointless and sometimes angry debates on the internet.

So let me make these things crystal clear.

There never was a ‘mccann html’ page on the CEOP website on or before 30 April 2007.

It was clearly set up and live by the time it was archived on 31 July. But not on 30 April.

The two timestamps were errors.

Our web crawler clearly malfunctioned in a serious way and we are still working out why that happened, how to fix it, and how many other times it has malfunctioned in similar or other ways.

Until we are able to fully satisfy the internet authorities that we have permanently fixed this problem and corrected all the data on our system, they have directed us to re-title our business the ‘Way Out Machine’, giving a more accurate description of the current position of our archive.

Finally, it is unhelpful, ludicrous and very hurtful for posters like canada12 to keep insisting that we were correct after all. She wrote yesterday:

“Through all of these pages and pages of arguments and counter-arguments I'm afraid my initial assessment of the situation still stands. This was a genuine capture of an April 30 page that was not made public. There were going to be two photos but only one was in place. I believe the second photo had a placeholder in place, so that the second photo could be inserted when provided. There were links to pdf's of posters, which could also be uploaded when provided. Until I see something that convinces me otherwise, that's where my opinion lies. There was no error on WBM's part. It was accurate”.

It really is time that this sort of utter nonsense ceases. Of course we were wrong. Though we have never admitted it previously, of course we are always making errors.

It is of no assistance to us at all if people now keep insisting that our web crawler is right all the time. Plainly it is not. Any further insistence that our web crawler doesn’t make mistakes and that our time stamps are always correct may face legal action. Leave us alone until we find out what went wrong.    
   
We thank you all for your patience and understanding. When we have fully sorted this, we will put out a statement. Following that, we will make an application to the internet authorities to allow us to revert to our previous name, the ‘Wayback Machine’.

In the meantime, find us on Twitter at the hashtag #WayOutMachine

Way Out CEO

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]  Guest Lord Today at 03:05
@whatsupdoc at 02.18

The mccann.html file  is odd about many things ...having the pix on the index/home page and the Latest News referring to October.

Firstly what pix on what page - oohhh, you mean the ceop.gov.uk homepage or ceop.gov.uk/index.asp which included this latest news (i called futuristic news page) NOT the mccann.html - as expl above, DIFFERENT pages - there was NO latest news on mccann.html, not now, not ever.

What IS odd is an unresolved image file called madeleine_02.jpg as seen on my screengrab and from the source code below

unquote.

If you look at a home page of CEOP today 2015 it is a generic page, actually changed to   [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] but no actual missing people mentioned.
I thought it odd that the mccann.html page was highlighting Madeleine when there must be lots of missing children. Why wasn't she in the Latest News page? It struck me as over-egged if you pardon the expression. I did notice there was 1 pic of Madeleine then 2 pix later but didn't follow up on that.I concentrated on the crawler dates for the 2 links I had. There are definitely 2 patterns over 2007...one pattern for the mccann.html link and another pattern for the ceop link.

Agreed, there was no Latest News on the mccann.html page. Without checking what I did manage to save, I'm trying to think if it was the 0501000000* link that had the October 2007 Latest News I think my comment may have rolled 3 issues into one sentence...sorry if it was confusing. It was a race to gather any info before it was all removed.

Tony Bennett wrote: Statement by the Chief Executive Officer of Wayback Machine

The CEOP Website

Statement released by the Chief Executive Officer of the Way Out Machine (formerly  the Wayback Machine) at 0700 hours BST, 23 June 2015 (time and date subject to confirmation)

On 16 June 2015, a British citizen by the name of Stephen Marsden interrogated the Way Out Machine about the website of a British organisation, the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre (CEOP).

We returned to him the following information:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

On the above date (30 April 2007), a Mr Jim Gamble was the Director of CEOP.

The following day, a Miss Isabelle Mary McFadden sought to confirm that the information was accurate, and our former Office Manager, Christopher Butler, confirmed that this was so at 9.47am. He actually gave out two print-outs of the accompanying pages which had been crawled. Butler referred to, even boasted of, ‘several attorneys a week seeking our services'. He did so given our previous, fabled reputation for accuracy - which has been regularly relied on in court proceedings the world over and resulted in many persons being convicted and, on occasions, jailed.

Due to the timely intervention of a Ms Lizzie Taylor the same day, however, it suddenly dawned on Mr Butler that, on this occasion, the result returned to Mr Marsden was in error.

First of all, both timestamps on the record returned to Mr Marsden were plain wrong.

And the actual archive date for the ‘mccann html’ page was 31 July 2007, not 30 April 2007.  
 
We apologise sincerely for having made this error which led to so many people wasting their precious time on pointless and sometimes angry debates on the internet.

So let me make these things crystal clear.

There never was a ‘mccann html’ page on the CEOP website on or before 30 April 2007.

It was clearly set up and live by the time it was archived on 31 July. But not on 30 April.

The two timestamps were errors.

Our web crawler clearly malfunctioned in a serious way and we are still working out why that happened, how to fix it, and how many other times it has malfunctioned in similar or other ways.

Until we are able to fully satisfy the internet authorities that we have permanently fixed this problem and corrected all the data on our system, they have directed us to re-title our business the ‘Way Out Machine’, giving a more accurate description of the current position of our archive.

Finally, it is unhelpful, ludicrous and very hurtful for posters like canada12 to keep insisting that we were correct after all. She wrote yesterday:

“Through all of these pages and pages of arguments and counter-arguments I'm afraid my initial assessment of the situation still stands. This was a genuine capture of an April 30 page that was not made public. There were going to be two photos but only one was in place. I believe the second photo had a placeholder in place, so that the second photo could be inserted when provided. There were links to pdf's of posters, which could also be uploaded when provided. Until I see something that convinces me otherwise, that's where my opinion lies. There was no error on WBM's part. It was accurate”.

It really is time that this sort of utter nonsense ceases. Of course we were wrong. Though we have never admitted it previously, of course we are always making errors.

It is of no assistance to us at all if people now keep insisting that our web crawler is right all the time. Plainly it is not. Any further insistence that our web crawler doesn’t make mistakes and that our time stamps are always correct may face legal action. Leave us alone until we find out what went wrong.    
   
We thank you all for your patience and understanding. When we have fully sorted this, we will put out a statement. Following that, we will make an application to the internet authorities to allow us to revert to our previous name, the ‘Wayback Machine’.

In the meantime, find us on Twitter at the hashtag #WayOutMachine

Way Out CEO

Worthy of Private Eye inclusion Mr B.

And on it goes.

One day, the truth will out. It doesn't look as though today is going to be that day.

ETA Oh good. I did wonder... 

You sir, are a cad.

Saw your post just before I stroll up shops for snack before bed. Thought oh no, just after I posted a long post to Lizzy correcting some of her post, typical...was reading quickly so missed first clue - oooh, Gamble...Mr Butler sacked, oh, wondering why, patsy ? - missed second clue...there's that date again July 31st (plucked from air ?)...

they have directed us to re-title our business the ‘Way Out Machine’

Then and only then did it dawn on me...laughing...smiling...had me for a while, research time and effort NOT wasted...not yet anyway...off to shops smiling

CAD x

Nice one Tony,
Now for another good laugh look at my recent post on the Missing People thread.

@Canada12. I was convinced (I'm not a techie though!) that this was a index and replay (reconstruction) error but there was a McCann page on 30/04. However I did struggle a bit with the October page, the penny didn't drop until you pointed out that the Oct. page belongs to the ceop page not McCann (others may have pointed this out and I've not noticed/paid attention). Your one photo, two photo scenario makes sense (who was it that dismissed this whole issue as common sense tells us..... Pat Brown) with this page being prepared in advance. To me it is also probable that the October page is the erroneous one (not that it matters anyways)

Tony, I love your Statement by the Chief Executive Officer of Wayback Machine


PS... I'm a "she" :-))

HKP wrote:@Canada12. I was convinced (I'm not a techie though!) that this was a index and replay (reconstruction) error but there was a McCann page on 30/04. However I did struggle a bit with the October page, the penny didn't drop until you pointed out that the Oct. page belongs to the ceop page not McCann (others may have pointed this out and I've not noticed/paid attention). Your one photo, two photo scenario makes sense (who was it that dismissed this whole issue as common sense tells us..... Pat Brown) with this page being prepared in advance. To me it is also probable that the October page is the erroneous one (not that it matters anyways)

I just keep wondering why the arguments tumbled into apples and oranges.
The CEOP page is an apple.
The mccann page is an orange.
Both fruit, but entirely different entities.

Could be interesting to see if Missing People a/o the Fraudulent Fund founders were crawled sporting the name McCann on or before April 30th 2007

Then we'd be sure(r)

canada12 wrote:Tony, I love your Statement by the Chief Executive Officer of Wayback Machine


PS... I'm a "she" :-))

@ canada12    I was glad to see the Way Off CEO drawing attention to your post yesterday. I have absolutely no doubt, however, that indeed he will in due course totally demolish and raze to the ground, blow to smithereens etc. your case that WayBack was accurate in this case.

I have just seen this further statement from the Way Off CEO:

Further statement

Timed at 9.30am, 23 June (subject to ratification by the Board of Way Off)

I regret that in my earlier statement I referred to 'canada 12' as 'he' and not, as it should have been, 'she'.

In accordance with our revised Data Revision policy, Para 30.4, 'Correction of Embarrassing Records Mistakes', you will see that I have taken steps to alter the original data in the post above and also make consequential amendments in later posts.

I apologise for this further error and thank you for giving us the opportunity to put things right.

Way Off Machine CEO

Much preferable to the alternative of leaving the Way Out record as it is and making "corrections" to canada12.

Oh dear! Look at McCann hashtag on Twitter

PLEASE can someone explain in layman’s terms, why when the CEOP ‘download your holiday photos’ page
 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
 
was captured on 23^rd May, two days after the first appeal for photos was announced, which looks about right (ie virtually immediately), yet we are being asked to believe that the original ‘CEOP Maddie Missing’ page (which had to have been created between about 30^th April and 10^th May) did not get captured by WBM until 31^st July.
 
This is just not believable.

Twitter is in meltdown over Way Off Machine's "statement"

PS... Well done , Tony... choc full of goodies...lol.

I must save that with the musings from a burger bar salesman...wasssisname.
I don't know how you manage to do all the research, visits, fora etc   

As per my last post on Sunday, I'm struggling for time to keep up with this thread and post, but a couple of quick comments...

Firstly the Wayback Machine remit (!!!) is not to provide an infallible legal service or capture everything perfectly; in some cases it is a by-product of what they do

Secondly they have available a MUCH more important set of information.  As I've explained wayback :-) in this thread, the pages we see are not like a screenshot of a page, or a folder full of everything that has been grabbed, but are re-created from information that was captured during crawls.

To replay the page, information is accessed using an index called CDX which tells Wayback where to find the original information contained in files callerd warc files that hold all the stuff they hoovered up during a crawl, (they have lots of hoovers and stuff can end up in different bags to continue the analogy).

I previously supplied some examples of the CDX data for the 30th April.  I believe they used to provide the full CDX records, but they now omit the most crucial part - the link to the appropriate warc files and the offset into those files.  I believe looking at those warc files would give a much clearer idea as to whether the issue is one of indexing the data, (and therefore dropping those indexes and re-creating them from source would correct things), or whether those warc files did actually capture the mccann.html file on that date, (for example considering the extra meta-data it contains, the other stuff that was captured at the same time etc).

Hopefully that is what they are researching.

ustyjames. The recreation (replay as they call it) has been mentioned several times (a few by myself) but no real 'takers' as such. My opinion was swayed to at the 'rebuild/reconstruction of the page(s), which is at the piont of retrieval, it was picking up a page which although was in the index was in there in error (October). The retreival can only reconstruct against whatever is in the index, however the October page belongs on the main ceop page, not McCann.htm therefore is not so relevant.