Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

by plebgate 30.11.14 14:12

canada12 wrote:This photo was apparently taken at some point close to the PDL holiday...

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And here is the Tennis Balls photo:
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I hope you'll forgive me for suggesting this can't possibly be the same child, based on the body shape alone. And even allowing for hunched shoulders.

The first picture the blonde hair has no dark roots at all (look at the parting on top of the head) whereas the second picture seems to show a lot of darker hair at the roots imo. What could explain this?

by ultimaThule 30.11.14 14:39

To my eye the hair of the child in the top photo does have dark roots close to the parting but these have been minimised by the sunlight shining on her head, plebgate..

What appears to be dark roots of the hair on the child in the lower picture could be caused by sweating, the shadow thrown by the hat, and/or the fact that it wasn't taken on a sunny day.

Both photos show a child who is developmentally of similar age to the other, but the torso of the child in the first photo is noticeably slimmer than that of the child who is clutching tennis balls. '

by plebgate 30.11.14 14:41

ultimaThule wrote:To my eye the hair of the child in the top photo does have dark roots close to the parting but these have been minimised by the sunlight shining on her head, plebgate..

What appears to be dark roots of the hair on the child in the lower picture could be caused by sweating, the shadow thrown by the hat, and/or the fact that it wasn't taken on a sunny day.

Both photos show a child who is developmentally of similar age to the other, but the torso of the child in the first photo is noticeably slimmer than that of the child who is clutching tennis balls. '

oops looks like I pressed send before commenting, soz.

Edited to add:
I think the first photo shows very slightly darker blonde hair near the roots, but I would not say the roots could be described as dark, whereas IMO the second photo not only shows darker hair at the roots but also near the ends of the hair. IMO the child would have been sweating buckets to make the hair as dark as it appears to be in the second photo? The hair also looks shorter in the second photo and I know posters have commented before, but those shorts are awfully old fashioned for a 3 year old born in 2003. Were that style of shorts even around after the 80's.

The style of the shorts reminds me of the Match of the Day pics of footballers in the 70's and very early 80's.

by canada12 30.11.14 14:56

comperedna wrote:canada... the child definitely looks like the same child to me, and at the same age. Her shoulders are hunched in the tennis balls photo because she is hugging the tennis balls to her.

Yes, I acknowledge the hunched shoulders. What I meant is that the child in the top photo is much much slimmer than the child in the bottom photo. Even if you allow for hunching shoulders...the child in the bottom photo has a much thicker torso than the child in the top photo.

Ella, Jane Tanner's blonde daughter, was quite chubby, as indicated in the greyscale photos we've been allowed to see from the PJ files....

by ultimaThule 30.11.14 14:58

As I recall, they're the same colour and style of the shorts which were seen on Amalie within a short time of her sister's disappearance, plebgate.

The hair colouring of the child(ren) in the photos would be noticeably darker after the winter which could indicate that, if genuine, the tennis photo was taken earlier than that of the child who is grasping a piece of play equipment and this also would account for the discrepancy in the length of the hair.

by ultimaThule 30.11.14 14:58

PeterMac wrote:Tuesday 1/5/7
"On Tuesday 1 May, after my tennis lesson, two maintenance workers came to have a look at our washing machine, which I couldn’t get to operate. Gerry had also managed to break the window shutter mechanism in our bedroom shortly after we’d arrived, in spite of the sign asking guests to be gentle with it. What can I say? It’s the Gerry touch . . . The two men looked at the washing machine first. Once they’d established that the problem was something simple – not quite as simple as me not having pressed the ‘on’ button, but not much more complicated than that – I went to meet Gerry, whose lesson had started at ten-fifteen, leaving them to fix the shutter.
During Gerry’s tennis lesson, Madeleine and Ella came to the adjoining court with their Mini Club for a mini-tennis session. Jane and I stayed to watch them. It chokes me remembering how my heart soared with pride in Madeleine that morning. She was so happy and obviously enjoying herself. Standing there listening intently to Cat’s instructions, she looked so gorgeous in her little T-shirt and shorts, pink hat, ankle socks and new holiday sandals that I ran back to our apartment for my camera to record the occasion. One of my photographs is known around the world now: a smiling Madeleine clutching armfuls of tennis balls. At the end of their session, the children had been asked to run around the court and pick up as many balls as they could. Madeleine had done really well and was very pleased with herself. Gerry loves that picture."

And the activity sheet for Lobsters - Madeleine's group
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]" />

Mini tennis - wherever it was - was scheduled for MONDAY 30th
OOOPS ! !

Mini tennis for young children is played on a shortened court with scaled down tennis racquets, mini tennis balls which are made of sponge for indoor courts and felt for outdoors, and mini tennis nets which are portable and can be set up anywhere.

While it appears that childcare in some Mark Warner holiday resorts owes much to the holiday camps of the 1950's where infants/children slumbered in 'chalets' while their parents enjoyed the evening entertainment and uniformed nannies walked or cycled endlessly round the camp listening for the sound of crying, I find it hard to credit that MW or any other reputable organisation in the 21st century would encourage 3-5 year olds to run around on the unforgiving surface of a hard tennis court.

Quite apart from the issue of whether children are suitably equipped for the activity with appropriate clothing, footwear etc - which clearly, if we are to believe that the 'tennis photo' was taken sometime between 28 April-3 May, Madeleine McCann wasn't - any such lack of care and concern for its young charges would be asking for a lawsuit if one of the little darlings tripped causing a wound which needed stitches, or sustained a fracture or worse.

It seems to me more likely that the MW mini tennis session took place on a taped out mini court with a mini net situated on a grassy area, in which case the 'tennis photo' may have been photoshopped most probably by using shots from the tennis club in Rothley whose courts, as has been remarked on elsewhere, bear a marked resemblance to the one in the photo.

by **PeterMac** 30.11.14 15:19

Quite.
And it does in fact say Mini Tennis GRASS TIME

But on the wrong day, obviously !

by Janetta 30.11.14 15:35

I was having a look at the two photographs, trying to ascertain from the hair colour whether or not it was the same girl in both photographs, but what I noticed more than the hair was the distinct "bags" under Madeleine's eyes; the lines under the eyes appearing to go in different directions depending on which photo you are looking at. This led me to look at other images on line of Madeleine. I don't know if this has been mentioned before but it is blatantly obvious in many of the photograph's that the "bags" have been airbrushed out. Why on earth would anyone do that to the photograph of a child, especially a child whose image is so important, because everyone needs to be looking for the face in the photograph?

by Brian Griffin 30.11.14 15:37

plebgate wrote:The style of the shorts reminds me of the Match of the Day pics of footballers in the 70's and very early 80's.

I think the sandals look as though they are straight from the 70s too.

Same girl in both pics though.

In my opinion.

by plebgate 30.11.14 15:47

Is it possible for some clever person who owns a smart phone to take a picture of the second photo and then reverse it so it's pointing in the same direction as the first, then post it on here?

by jack dexter 30.11.14 16:29

plebgate wrote:
canada12 wrote:This photo was apparently taken at some point close to the PDL holiday...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

And here is the Tennis Balls photo:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I ou'll forgive me for suggestingan't possibly be the same child, based on the body shape alone. And even allowing for hunched shoulders.
The first picture the blonde hair has no dark roots at all (look at the parting on top of the head) whereas the second picture seems to show a lot of darker hair at the roots imo. What could explain this?

Something about the slide picture looks very wrong to me. It is like one of those photos where when you see something you can not not see it. It might be just me so I won't give it away.

by ultimaThule 30.11.14 16:45

That doesn't look like any slide I've seen, jack dexter, and it seems to me it's more likely to be a piece of balancing equipment set on a grassy fenced-in area which appears to have been superimposed on a car park or similar - surely that's not a road in the background?

It also seems to me that the child's right arm is disproportionate to her body - that's a very chunkly elbow for such a slim little girl.

.

by jack dexter 30.11.14 16:52

ultimaThule wrote:That doesn't look like any slide I've seen, jack dexter, and it seems to me it's more likely to be a piece of balancing equipment set on a grassy fenced-in area which appears to have been superimposed on a car park or similar - surely that's not a road in the background?

It also seems to me that the child's right arm is disproportionate to her body - that's a very chunkly elbow for such a slim little girl.

.

I assumed it was a slide but happy to be corrected. Will let you all know what I see later tonight to give everyone a chance to see it.

by ultimaThule 30.11.14 17:22

ultimaThule wrote:
PeterMac wrote:Tuesday 1/5/7
"On Tuesday 1 May, after my tennis lesson, two maintenance workers came to have a look at our washing machine, which I couldn’t get to operate. Gerry had also managed to break the window shutter mechanism in our bedroom shortly after we’d arrived, in spite of the sign asking guests to be gentle with it. What can I say? It’s the Gerry touch . . . The two men looked at the washing machine first. Once they’d established that the problem was something simple – not quite as simple as me not having pressed the ‘on’ button, but not much more complicated than that – I went to meet Gerry, whose lesson had started at ten-fifteen, leaving them to fix the shutter.
During Gerry’s tennis lesson, Madeleine and Ella came to the adjoining court with their Mini Club for a mini-tennis session. Jane and I stayed to watch them. It chokes me remembering how my heart soared with pride in Madeleine that morning. She was so happy and obviously enjoying herself. Standing there listening intently to Cat’s instructions, she looked so gorgeous in her little T-shirt and shorts, pink hat, ankle socks and new holiday sandals that I ran back to our apartment for my camera to record the occasion. One of my photographs is known around the world now: a smiling Madeleine clutching armfuls of tennis balls. At the end of their session, the children had been asked to run around the court and pick up as many balls as they could. Madeleine had done really well and was very pleased with herself. Gerry loves that picture."

And the activity sheet for Lobsters - Madeleine's group
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]" />

Mini tennis - wherever it was - was scheduled for MONDAY 30th
OOOPS ! !

Mini tennis for young children is played on a shortened court with scaled down tennis racquets, mini tennis balls which are made of sponge for indoor courts and felt for outdoors, and mini tennis nets which are portable and can be set up anywhere.

While it appears that childcare in some Mark Warner holiday resorts owes much to the holiday camps of the 1950's where infants/children slumbered in 'chalets' while their parents enjoyed the evening entertainment and uniformed nannies walked or cycled endlessly round the camp listening for the sound of crying, I find it hard to credit that MW or any other reputable organisation in the 21st century would encourage 3-5 year olds to run around on the unforgiving surface of a hard tennis court.

Quite apart from the issue of whether children are suitably equipped for the activity with appropriate clothing, footwear etc - which clearly, if we are to believe that the 'tennis photo' was taken sometime between 28 April-3 May, Madeleine McCann wasn't - any such lack of care and concern for its young charges would be asking for a lawsuit if one of the little darlings tripped causing a wound which needed stitches, or sustained a fracture or worse.

It seems to me more likely that the MW mini tennis session took place on a taped out mini court with a mini net situated on a grassy area, in which case the 'tennis photo' may have been photoshopped most probably by using shots from the tennis club in Rothley whose courts, as has been remarked on elsewhere, bear a marked resemblance to the one in the photo.

PeterMac wrote:Quite.
And it does in fact say Mini Tennis GRASS TIME

But on the wrong day, obviously !

I've taken the liberty of appending your response to my earlier post as it seems to me the clue to the surface on which each activity took place is in the week's plan which you've contributed, PeterM,

Or are we expected to be believe that the activity of 'Parachute' took place at the top of the cliffs where 3-5 year olds hurled themselves off safe in the knowledge that by simply pulling a cord they'd drift gently to the ground below, or that 'Build a city' took place on a piece of waste ground where the children amused themselves with earth moving equipment and cement mixers before carrying hods laden with bricks to build a few skyscrapers?

Where is the evidence of Madeleine's full time attendance at the Lobster club? No postcards, spaceship collage, moon pictures, happy handprint stars? Not even a crumbling salt dough rocket for her parents to display to the world as proof of her prodigious talent and/or enshrine on the mantelpiece in Rothley? Only a cuddlecat for her mother to publicly clutch until the overworked toy was consigned to ~~the bin~~.the shocking pink bedroom which is overflowing with 7 years' worth of birthday and Christmas gifts from relatives and well-wishers alike?

And what did the first activity on Sunday morning encompass? Could 'Lobster Pictures' have involved the children having their photos taken individually and/or as a group to pin up on the huge corkboards which showed all of those 3-5 year olds who had attended the club throughout the season?

by cath2756 30.11.14 17:58

jack dexter wrote:
plebgate wrote:
canada12 wrote:This photo was apparently taken at some point close to the PDL holiday...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

And here is the Tennis Balls photo:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I ou'll forgive me for suggestingan't possibly be the same child, based on the body shape alone. And even allowing for hunched shoulders.
The first picture the blonde hair has no dark roots at all (look at the parting on top of the head) whereas the second picture seems to show a lot of darker hair at the roots imo. What could explain this?
Something about the slide picture looks very wrong to me. It is like one of those photos where when you see something you can not not see it. It might be just me so I won't give it away.

Left hand is wrong way round. Impossible to hold onto rail/bar with fingers to the front and yet thumb is at bottom. Thumb should be pointing up. Hope I explained that properly

by jack dexter 30.11.14 18:12

cath2756 wrote:
jack dexter wrote:
plebgate wrote:
canada12 wrote:This photo was apparently taken at some point close to the PDL holiday...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

And here is the Tennis Balls photo:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I ou'll forgive me for suggestingan't possibly be the same child, based on the body shape alone. And even allowing for hunched shoulders.
The first picture the blonde hair has no dark roots at all (look at the parting on top of the head) whereas the second picture seems to show a lot of darker hair at the roots imo. What could explain this?
Something about the slide picture looks very wrong to me. It is like one of those photos where when you see something you can not not see it. It might be just me so I won't give it away.
Left hand is wrong way round. Impossible to hold onto rail/bar with fingers to the front and yet thumb is at bottom. Thumb should be pointing up. Hope I explained that properly

No.that can be done. Do it yourself thenimaging what the photographer would see.

by plebgate 30.11.14 18:14

Reminds me of steps leading up to an aircraft and IMO both UT and Cath2576 posts about the arms are worth looking at. Will be interested to see what Jack D can see.

by Guest 30.11.14 18:22

cath2756 wrote:
jack dexter wrote:
plebgate wrote:
canada12 wrote:This photo was apparently taken at some point close to the PDL holiday...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

And here is the Tennis Balls photo:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I ou'll forgive me for suggestingan't possibly be the same child, based on the body shape alone. And even allowing for hunched shoulders.
The first picture the blonde hair has no dark roots at all (look at the parting on top of the head) whereas the second picture seems to show a lot of darker hair at the roots imo. What could explain this?
Something about the slide picture looks very wrong to me. It is like one of those photos where when you see something you can not not see it. It might be just me so I won't give it away.
Left hand is wrong way round. Impossible to hold onto rail/bar with fingers to the front and yet thumb is at bottom. Thumb should be pointing up. Hope I explained that properly

For the benefit of any media people reading this forum who are looking for ammunition to use against "conspiracy theorists"...

There are many ordinary people here who are not buying the "everything is photoshopped" nonsense.

"Left hand is wrong way round."

For goodness sake stop this crap.

by plebgate 30.11.14 18:31

Posters were asked to discuss the tennis ball photo Blue Bag. You may disagree, but IMO no need to be quite so abrupt with your response.

Yes, we may disagree strongly about things said on the forum, and you may well be right about that photo, Blue Bag - but to put your point politely doesn't weaken your argument - T.B., Moderator

by Daryl Dixon 30.11.14 18:34

It's the same girl doing different things. Agree with Bluebag on this.

by MickyDrip 30.11.14 18:36

Post deleted - Welcome to the forum, MickyDrip, but - especially in your first post here - don't start making accusations. Argue your points politely please

- T.B., Moderator

by plebgate 30.11.14 18:41

Note - MickyDrip's post has been deleted - T.B., Moderator

Oh please. Some posters say what they see in a photo and very valuable evidence is undermined? Yeah right. Joined just to post that?

The photo discussion threads always end up getting people irate. lol.

by Guest 30.11.14 18:45

plebgate wrote:Posters were asked to discuss the tennis ball photo Blue Bag. You may disagree, but IMO no need to be quite so abrupt with your response.

Yes, we may disagree strongly about things said on the forum, and you may well be right about that photo, Blue Bag - but to put your point politely doesn't weaken your argument - T.B., Moderator

Sorry Tony but people are messing with the forum.

"Left hand is wrong way round."

Total nonsense.

All the "photoshopped" stuff is nonsense and it's the usual suspects, I haven't seen a single claim that stands up.

It's totally irritating.

by Guest 30.11.14 18:47

MickyDrip??!

Really? Ahem. Strange choice of username on a forum about a missing child.

by Guest 30.11.14 18:48

plebgate wrote:Note - MickyDrip's post has been deleted - T.B., Moderator

Oh please. Some posters say what they see in a photo and very valuable evidence is undermined? Yeah right. Joined just to post that?

The photo discussion threads always end up getting people irate. lol.

I've had a strong feeling there would be disruption today. Several new members have joined and older members have re-surfaced... Not saying they're all here to cause trouble.
Welcome to all genuine new members. welcome

by juliet 30.11.14 18:51

It is noticeable that Bluebag only posts when he wants to call other posters stupid or liars. His negativity and aggression is tiring.

by cath2756 30.11.14 18:57

Ladyinred wrote:
plebgate wrote:Note - MickyDrip's post has been deleted - T.B., Moderator

Oh please. Some posters say what they see in a photo and very valuable evidence is undermined? Yeah right. Joined just to post that?

The photo discussion threads always end up getting people irate. lol.

I've had a strong feeling there would be disruption today. Several new members have joined and older members have re-surfaced... Not saying they're all here to cause trouble.
Welcome to all genuine new members.

Apologies if I have caused any disruption or offence. I replied as a question was asked as to if we noticed anything strange in the photo and I thought the hand looked strange. I have maybe re-surfaced in the context of posting but I keep up to date as a lurker. Think I will go back to lurking.

by juliet 30.11.14 19:01

Take no notice, cath. Some people just can't bear photo discussion and try to shut it down every time. But I think plebgate was referring to the deleted post.

by canada12 30.11.14 19:44

plebgate wrote:Is it possible for some clever person who owns a smart phone to take a picture of the second photo and then reverse it so it's pointing in the same direction as the first, then post it on here?

Here you go, Plebgate...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Just my observation, but I tend to agree with whoever it was posted further up this thread that it's very awkward to hold the railing the way the child is holding it in her left hand. Try it yourself. Your natural inclination if holding your arm backwards like that is to put your fingers on top of the railing, and your thumb would therefore also be on top of the railing and pointing down - the same as her right hand. It's not impossible, it's just a bit awkward.

Just my observation.

by ultimaThule 30.11.14 19:55

Well done, canada.

Maybe it's my monitor which makes it appear that the child who is clutching the tennis balls is wearing a sports bra?

Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted