Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

by canada12 30.11.14 20:03

ultimaThule wrote:Well done, canada.

Maybe it's my monitor which makes it appear that the child who is clutching the tennis balls is wearing a sports bra?

I can't tell. I have a sports bra and even though it's soft, it does leave an outline if you wear it with something tight. I don't see any evidence of it in the tennis balls photo.

I believe it's the same child's face in both pictures. I just don't believe it's the same child's body in both pictures.

by Liz Eagles 30.11.14 20:06

canada12 wrote:
ultimaThule wrote:Well done, canada.

Maybe it's my monitor which makes it appear that the child who is clutching the tennis balls is wearing a sports bra?

I can't tell. I have a sports bra and even though it's soft, it does leave an outline if you wear it with something tight. I don't see any evidence of it in the tennis balls photo.

I believe it's the same child's face in both pictures. I just don't believe it's the same child's body in both pictures.

Is Sunday Panto evening?

Are you canada12 and ultimaThule discussing that Madeleine is wearing a sports bra?

Really?

Blue Bag is right this is absolute bloody nonsense.

by canada12 30.11.14 20:08

aquila wrote:
Is Sunday Panto evening?

Are you canada12 and ultimaThule discussing that Madeleine is wearing a sports bra?

Really?

Why yes, we are, aquila. And as I mentioned above, I don't believe she is wearing a sports bra.

Do you have any thoughts about why she's so slim in the top photo and her body is much fatter in the tennis balls photo?

by Liz Eagles 30.11.14 20:15

canada12 wrote:
aquila wrote:
Is Sunday Panto evening?

Are you canada12 and ultimaThule discussing that Madeleine is wearing a sports bra?

Really?

Why yes, we are, aquila. And as I mentioned above, I don't believe she is wearing a sports bra.

Do you have any thoughts about why she's so slim in the top photo and her body is much fatter in the tennis balls photo?

I have no idea why this thread has turned into another photo thread but seeing as it has I don't know about you but I have loads of pictures of my Son taken at similar times - some even on the same day. In some he looks podgy and in others he doesn't.

Discussing the fold of a tee shirt to mention a sports bra is just shocking. It takes things to more than an obsession with photographs. It speaks more about the poster. I find it macabre and utterly pointless.

by margaret 30.11.14 20:20

aquila wrote:
canada12 wrote:
aquila wrote:
Is Sunday Panto evening?

Are you canada12 and ultimaThule discussing that Madeleine is wearing a sports bra?

Really?

Why yes, we are, aquila. And as I mentioned above, I don't believe she is wearing a sports bra.

Do you have any thoughts about why she's so slim in the top photo and her body is much fatter in the tennis balls photo?
I have no idea why this thread has turned into another photo thread but seeing as it has I don't know about you but I have loads of pictures of my Son taken at similar times - some even on the same day. In some he looks podgy and in others he doesn't.

Discussing the fold of a tee shirt to mention a sports bra is just shocking. It takes things to more than an obsession with photographs. It speaks more about the poster. I find it macabre and utterly pointless.

Agreed Aquila and everyone else who finds these photo analysing thread as tedious as I do.

As for a sports bra on a three year old. Think logically fgs I wouldn't have thought such a thing exists! notlistening

by **sharonl** 30.11.14 20:21

This thread has indeed derailed into another photo thread. Can we get this thread back on topic now please.

by NickE 30.11.14 20:45

Interesting that Donna Hill was responsible for Creche staff.
------------------------------

Processos Vol I
Pages 86 –90

External Activity Report

Date: 2007-05-04

Place: Praia da Luz, Lagos

Officer responsible: Inspector Manuel Pinho

Description and Result:

On this date, in the company of my colleague L.Madeira, we spoke with Mrs Silvia Maria Correia Ramos B., director of maintenance and services for the company "GREENTROUST", which manages the "OCEAN CLUB" company, contactable by mobile phone 964....

Through her, we contacted Donna Louise Rafferty Hill (contactable by mobile phone number 964...)responsible for the crèche employees belonging to the "MARK WARNER" company, who were responsible for Madeleine and the twins for several periods during the day after their arrival in Portugal.

She told us that all these employees are English nationals and that they work in Portugal from
March/April until November; that there are 13 people who work in the crèche, their names and telephone numbers being as follows: [NOTE: Phone numbers withheld]
- Pauline Francis M.
- Emma Louise W.
- Sarah Elizabeth W.
- Susan Bernadette O.
- Leanne Danielle W.
- Shinead Maria V.
- Jacqueline Mary W.
- Kirsty Louise M.
- Lynne R.F.
- Catriona Treasa Sisile B.
- Stacey P.
- Lyndsay Jayne J.
- Amy Ellen T.

by Liz Eagles 30.11.14 20:50

NickE wrote:Interesting that Donna Hill was responsible for Creche staff.
------------------------------

Processos Vol I
Pages 86 –90

External Activity Report

Date: 2007-05-04

Place: Praia da Luz, Lagos

Officer responsible: Inspector Manuel Pinho

Description and Result:

On this date, in the company of my colleague L.Madeira, we spoke with Mrs Silvia Maria Correia Ramos B., director of maintenance and services for the company "GREENTROUST", which manages the "OCEAN CLUB" company, contactable by mobile phone 964....

Through her, we contacted Donna Louise Rafferty Hill (contactable by mobile phone number 964...)responsible for the crèche employees belonging to the "MARK WARNER" company, who were responsible for Madeleine and the twins for several periods during the day after their arrival in Portugal.

She told us that all these employees are English nationals and that they work in Portugal from
March/April until November; that there are 13 people who work in the crèche, their names and telephone numbers being as follows: [NOTE: Phone numbers withheld]
- Pauline Francis M.
- Emma Louise W.
- Sarah Elizabeth W.
- Susan Bernadette O.
- Leanne Danielle W.
- Shinead Maria V.
- Jacqueline Mary W.
- Kirsty Louise M.
- Lynne R.F.
- Catriona Treasa Sisile B.
- Stacey P.
- Lyndsay Jayne J.
- Amy Ellen T.

I've never seen this before. Thank you.

Who is Donna Louise Rafferty Hill?

by NickE 30.11.14 20:58

aquila wrote:
NickE wrote:Interesting that Donna Hill was responsible for Creche staff.
------------------------------

Processos Vol I
Pages 86 –90

External Activity Report

Date: 2007-05-04

Place: Praia da Luz, Lagos

Officer responsible: Inspector Manuel Pinho

Description and Result:

On this date, in the company of my colleague L.Madeira, we spoke with Mrs Silvia Maria Correia Ramos B., director of maintenance and services for the company "GREENTROUST", which manages the "OCEAN CLUB" company, contactable by mobile phone 964....

Through her, we contacted Donna Louise Rafferty Hill (contactable by mobile phone number 964...)responsible for the crèche employees belonging to the "MARK WARNER" company, who were responsible for Madeleine and the twins for several periods during the day after their arrival in Portugal.

She told us that all these employees are English nationals and that they work in Portugal from
March/April until November; that there are 13 people who work in the crèche, their names and telephone numbers being as follows: [NOTE: Phone numbers withheld]
- Pauline Francis M.
- Emma Louise W.
- Sarah Elizabeth W.
- Susan Bernadette O.
- Leanne Danielle W.
- Shinead Maria V.
- Jacqueline Mary W.
- Kirsty Louise M.
- Lynne R.F.
- Catriona Treasa Sisile B.
- Stacey P.
- Lyndsay Jayne J.
- Amy Ellen T.
I've never seen this before. Thank you.

Who is Donna Louise Rafferty Hill?

Snipped from Sunday Express.

"Mr John Hill(OC manager) and his wife Donna printed pictures after being given a memory stick by Russell O'Brien, a friend of the McCanns whose partner Jane Tanner's picture of Madeleine gathering tennis balls is well known.

Donna Hill is likely to be requestioned early in the New Year".

by Guest 30.11.14 21:00

aquila wrote:

I've never seen this before. Thank you.

Who is Donna Louise Rafferty Hill?

I must have seen it posted here before because I remember remarking that Charlotte Pennington isn't on it.

by Brian Griffin 30.11.14 21:00

BlueBag wrote:
cath2756 wrote:
jack dexter wrote:
plebgate wrote:
canada12 wrote:This photo was apparently taken at some point close to the PDL holiday...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

And here is the Tennis Balls photo:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I ou'll forgive me for suggestingan't possibly be the same child, based on the body shape alone. And even allowing for hunched shoulders.
The first picture the blonde hair has no dark roots at all (look at the parting on top of the head) whereas the second picture seems to show a lot of darker hair at the roots imo. What could explain this?
Something about the slide picture looks very wrong to me. It is like one of those photos where when you see something you can not not see it. It might be just me so I won't give it away.
Left hand is wrong way round. Impossible to hold onto rail/bar with fingers to the front and yet thumb is at bottom. Thumb should be pointing up. Hope I explained that properly

For the benefit of any media people reading this forum who are looking for ammunition to use against "conspiracy theorists"...

There are many ordinary people here who are not buying the "everything is photoshopped" nonsense.

"Left hand is wrong way round."

For goodness sake stop this crap.

by Liz Eagles 30.11.14 21:03

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
aquila wrote:

I've never seen this before. Thank you.

Who is Donna Louise Rafferty Hill?

I must have seen it posted here before because I remember remarking that Charlotte Pennington isn't on it.

Help me out here but wasn't it Charlotte Pennington whose boyfriend's printer was used to print out the photographs and the printer went missing when he left for France? or was that Amy Tierney?

by juliet 30.11.14 21:05

No it was Amy Tierney.

by j.rob 30.11.14 21:08

juliet wrote:It is noticeable that Bluebag only posts when he wants to call other posters stupid or liars. His negativity and aggression is tiring.

I have noticed that too. And a lot of the McCann photos ARE weird. Very weird indeed.

by j.rob 30.11.14 21:09

cath2756 wrote:
Ladyinred wrote:
plebgate wrote:Note - MickyDrip's post has been deleted - T.B., Moderator

Oh please. Some posters say what they see in a photo and very valuable evidence is undermined? Yeah right. Joined just to post that?

The photo discussion threads always end up getting people irate. lol.

I've had a strong feeling there would be disruption today. Several new members have joined and older members have re-surfaced... Not saying they're all here to cause trouble.
Welcome to all genuine new members.
Apologies if I have caused any disruption or offence. I replied as a question was asked as to if we noticed anything strange in the photo and I thought the hand looked strange. I have maybe re-surfaced in the context of posting but I keep up to date as a lurker. Think I will go back to lurking.

The hand does look strange. I noticed that too. And why is she not holding the type of tennis balls used for mini tennis?

by NickE 30.11.14 21:10

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
aquila wrote:

I've never seen this before. Thank you.

Who is Donna Louise Rafferty Hill?

I must have seen it posted here before because I remember remarking that Charlotte Pennington isn't on it.

No, she was not.

There are many "coincidences" in this case.

Pennington arrives in Portugal on the same day as the McCann´s and the Tapas gang.

Witness statement
Charlotte Elizabeth Anne Pennington
Date/Time: 2007/05/07 14H30
Childcare Worker
Irish Citizen
Translator Robert Murat

- Has been in Portugal since April 28th, the day upon which she began working for the Ocean Club tourist Complex in Luz, Lagos, and where she is employed as a child educator.

by Liz Eagles 30.11.14 21:10

juliet wrote:No it was Amy Tierney.

Thank you.

It's more than fascinating that Clay points out Charlotte Pennington isn't on the list of nannies.

by canada12 30.11.14 21:21

aquila wrote:
juliet wrote:No it was Amy Tierney.
Thank you.

It's more than fascinating that Clay points out Charlotte Pennington isn't on the list of nannies.

There's a nice collection of information about Charlotte Pennington here:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

If, indeed, she was not registered as a Nanny at the Ocean Club, and the above list is correct, then it seems to me that she appears to have been presented just in time to provide all kinds of helpful information about and for the McCanns.

She calls herself a "child educator" rather than a nanny in her statement. Is this a result of the translation? Or a deliberate attempt to avoid calling herself a nanny?

Did Mark Warner commonly refer to their nannies as child educators?

by sallypelt 30.11.14 21:22

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by **Tony Bennett** 30.11.14 21:25

BlueBag wrote:
All the "photoshopped" stuff is nonsense and it's the usual suspects, I haven't seen a single claim that stands up.

It's totally irritating.

@ sharonl

Probably no-one's fault really, but the 'trouble' regarding the topic veering on to another photo discussion started innocently enough with GRACEFUL1 (agree with 'plebgate', nice to see you back) posting the Sunday Express article today which featured a very large 'Tennis Balls' photo (page 10 of thread).

However, as the subject has been raised and some interesting and strong points discussed, I will take a slight liberty here and continue the discussion, if only to raise some issues which we could possibly discuss more appropriately on another photo therad.

@ BlueBag

I am with you, as you know, on the 'Last Photo' - genuine photo, but taken on another day. NOT photoshopped.

I am with you about the photo of Madeleine on the green slide - she is gripping on the rails in a way that is quite normal for, say, someone climbing up towards the top of the slide. So - also NOT photoshopped.

However, you have made the sweeping comment that "All the 'photoshopped' stuff is nonsense". On the subject of the Tennis Balls Photo, however, I tend to part company with you.

I am more impressed with the arguments of those who suggest the possibility that Madeleine's head was shopped on to a photograph of an older girl clutching tennis balls.

I would invite forum members to research the following:

1. Look at this YouTube video: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.][You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Its title is: 'Madeleine McCann: "What they Don't Want You to Know", and it has had a remarkable 210,418 views to date.

The maker claims to have used a software program to have extracted the EXIF data. These EXIF data clearly show that the Tennis Balls Photo was created on Saturday 5th May.

This immediately raises the possibility that the Tennis Balls Photo is of another child, taken on 5th May.

If that is correct, and it wasn't taken on Tuesday 1st May nor on Thursday 3rd May, then that immediately raises the possibility that this photo is a clever forgery.

And if it is a forgery i.e. it's a photo taken on 5th May that we are meant to believe was taken on 1st May, then it is also permissible to discuss the possibility that Madeleine's head has been deliberately shopped on to the body of another - probably older - girl.

2. Visit this thread on CMOMM ('Video Analysis of Tennis Court Photo'):

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

It contains much useful research, analysis and discussion.

In particular I would mention a still photo analysis of the 'Last Photo' and the 'Tennis Balls Photo' which purports to prove that the arm on the Tennis Balls Photo is significantly longer than Madeleine's arm on the Last Photo. I find it persuasive.

There is also a significant couple of posts by 'Khalgregar', who convincingly argues the case that the Last Photo is a genuine photo taken on another date but that Madeleine's head has been shopped into the Tennis Balls Photo which is of an older girl.

Incidentally this hypothesis may explain the marks (scrapes?) on the girl's knee and the apparent bruising, which I tend to think are nothing out-of-the-ordinary for an active young girl or boy.

3. Finally, read the post below, from 'tigger' back in 2012 quoting a typically astute set of observations by the much-missed 'jd':

QUOTE

jd wrote:

Just a reminder on the Tennis photo:

* Rachael Oldfield is claiming in her rogatory interview the Tennis photo was taken by Jane Tanner on Thursday 3rd at 10.30 am

* But Catriona Baker claims in her rogatory interview that on Thursday 3rd at 10.30 am Maddie is sailing and crying at the launch of the yellow safety boat

* Kate mccann says in her book that she took the photo on Tuesday 1st in the morning. "Standing there listening intently to Cat’s instructions, she looked so gorgeous in her little T-shirt and shorts, pink hat, ankle socks and new holiday sandals that I ran back to our apartment for my camera to record the occasion."

* Jane Tanner says the picture was taken on the Wednesday (But tennis was cancelled due to the rain)

* The creche schedule puts mini tennis as the activity for Monday morning not Tuesday as Kate McCann suggests

* The police say they know this photo was taken at 10.29am on Thursday May 3rd with a racquet during Fiona Payne’s rogatory interview...Quote Payne "Because Jane TANNER had actually taken a picture of Madeleine with the racquet'' (To me it looks like Maddie is holding tennis balls?)

-----------

* This photo is not on the list of photos the PJ took from their cameras (coincidentally on the 9th May 2007)

* On May 9th 2007 back in the UK, Philomena McCann sends this photo as part of the 'e-poster' campaign

-----------

How can they all get it so wrong?

UNQUOTE

by Liz Eagles 30.11.14 21:29

There's a chunk of posts on here just gone missing.

I deleted my last post as it needed a lot of re-editing, it's back up now (the one before yours) - it raises new points about the Tennis Balls Photo - T.B.

by Guest 30.11.14 21:38

aquila wrote:There's a chunk of posts on here just gone missing.

I deleted my last post as it needed a lot of re-editing, it's back up now (the one before yours) - it raises new points about the Tennis Balls Photo - T.B.

Just seen TB's edit. Was going to say that it might have been my fault as I still hadn't got around to putting my timezone right after the forumotion issue shipped me to Guam, or wherever. I've done it now, just to be on the safe side.

by **sharonl** 30.11.14 21:46

Once again, can we please get this thread back on topic.

I've taken over my last post on the Tennis Balls Photo to a new Tennis Balls thread now running in the Debate Section for those who want to carry on debating the issue there.

- T.B., Moderator

by ultimaThule 01.12.14 2:02

In the interests of clarity, I have merged the following posts here:

canada12 wrote:
ultimaThule wrote:Well done, canada.

Maybe it's my monitor which makes it appear that the child who is clutching the tennis balls is wearing a sports bra?

I can't tell. I have a sports bra and even though it's soft, it does leave an outline if you wear it with something tight. I don't see any evidence of it in the tennis balls photo.

I believe it's the same child's face in both pictures. I just don't believe it's the same child's body in both pictures.

aquila wrote:
canada12 wrote:
aquila wrote:
Is Sunday Panto evening?

Are you canada12 and ultimaThule discussing that Madeleine is wearing a sports bra?

Really?

Why yes, we are, aquila. And as I mentioned above, I don't believe she is wearing a sports bra.

Do you have any thoughts about why she's so slim in the top photo and her body is much fatter in the tennis balls photo?

I have no idea why this thread has turned into another photo thread but seeing as it has I don't know about you but I have loads of pictures of my Son taken at similar times - some even on the same day. In some he looks podgy and in others he doesn't.

Discussing the fold of a tee shirt to mention a sports bra is just shocking. It takes things to more than an obsession with photographs. It speaks more about the poster. I find it macabre and utterly pointless.

As I recall there was considerable discussion on another thread as to whether the body of what appears to be a child in the tennis photo is, in fact, that of an adult woman such as Kate McCann which may go some way to explaining the way in which the t-shirt hugs the back in certain places and, on my monitor at least, gives the effect of a sports bra or similar worn underneath the garment..

However, in view sharonl's admonition, I'll try to find the relevant thread and pm you, canada

by jack dexter 01.12.14 7:20

Brian Griffin wrote:
BlueBag wrote:
cath2756 wrote:
jack dexter wrote:
plebgate wrote:
canada12 wrote:This photo was apparently taken at some point close to the PDL holiday...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

And here is the Tennis Balls photo:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I ou'll forgive me for suggestingan't possibly be the same child, based on the body shape alone. And even allowing for hunched shoulders.
The first picture the blonde hair has no dark roots at all (look at the parting on top of the head) whereas the second picture seems to show a lot of darker hair at the roots imo. What could explain this?
Something about the slide picture looks very wrong to me. It is like one of those photos where when you see something you can not not see it. It might be just me so I won't give it away.
Left hand is wrong way round. Impossible to hold onto rail/bar with fingers to the front and yet thumb is at bottom. Thumb should be pointing up. Hope I explained that properly

For the benefit of any media people reading this forum who are looking for ammunition to use against "conspiracy theorists"...

There are many ordinary people here who are not buying the "everything is photoshopped" nonsense.

"Left hand is wrong way round."

For goodness sake stop this crap.

Ok This might be a trick my brain is playing but i see a triangle between the two rails underneath her chin. It is the same colour as the orange bit but looks attached to the side. Only others things that do not look right are her hair is longer on one side but braided on the shorter side so that may account for it. Also her hair hangs over the triangle but the front of her t shirt is behind it. Also would her hair not fall away from her face at that angle.

by Guest 01.12.14 9:00

Tony Bennett wrote:
1. Look at this YouTube video: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.][You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Its title is: 'Madeleine McCann: "What they Don't Want You to Know", and it has had a remarkable 210,418 views to date.

The maker claims to have used a software program to have extracted the EXIF data. These EXIF data clearly show that the Tennis Balls Photo was created on Saturday 5th May.

This immediately raises the possibility that the Tennis Balls Photo is of another child, taken on 5th May.

The photo may have been cropped and saved as a new image on 5th May using software.

Tony, don't get sucked into this. They will drain the life out of you by leading you down blind alleys about nothing.

"Arms longer than they should be..."

Cameras are strange things that do not record images faithfully.

But we've done all that in the last photo thread.

by woodforthetrees 01.12.14 9:17

BlueBag wrote:

Tony, don't get sucked into this. They will drain the life out of you by leading you down blind alleys about nothing.

"Arms longer than they should be..."

Cameras are strange things that do not record images faithfully.

But we've done all that in the last photo thread.

Totally agree here.

IMO its a genuine picture, just edited/cropped/touched up to suit the requirements of the media/printing on the 5th

by ultimaThule 01.12.14 9:23

Too late BlueBag - TB has already created a new thread on the subject of the tennis photo: https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10713-the-new-tennis-balls-photo-thread-photoshopped-photo-created-on-5th-may-claims-youtube-video#294219

I see what you mean, jack dexter, but in order that this thread is not further diverted, I would suggest you copy your post before deleting it and adding it to the thead above where the points you've made can be debated at length if necessary.

by jack dexter 01.12.14 11:09

ultimaThule wrote:Too late BlueBag - TB has already created a new thread on the subject of the tennis photo: https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10713-the-new-tennis-balls-photo-thread-photoshopped-photo-created-on-5th-may-claims-youtube-video#294219

I see what you mean, jack dexter, but in order that this thread is not further diverted, I would suggest you copy your post before deleting it and adding it to the thead above where the points you've made can be debated at length if necessary.

Can someone copy this over for me please as I am struggling to do it on my phone.

by Brian Griffin 01.12.14 11:36

jack dexter wrote:
Brian Griffin wrote:
BlueBag wrote:
cath2756 wrote:
jack dexter wrote:
plebgate wrote:
canada12 wrote:This photo was apparently taken at some point close to the PDL holiday...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

And here is the Tennis Balls photo:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I ou'll forgive me for suggestingan't possibly be the same child, based on the body shape alone. And even allowing for hunched shoulders.
The first picture the blonde hair has no dark roots at all (look at the parting on top of the head) whereas the second picture seems to show a lot of darker hair at the roots imo. What could explain this?
Something about the slide picture looks very wrong to me. It is like one of those photos where when you see something you can not not see it. It might be just me so I won't give it away.
Left hand is wrong way round. Impossible to hold onto rail/bar with fingers to the front and yet thumb is at bottom. Thumb should be pointing up. Hope I explained that properly

For the benefit of any media people reading this forum who are looking for ammunition to use against "conspiracy theorists"...

There are many ordinary people here who are not buying the "everything is photoshopped" nonsense.

"Left hand is wrong way round."

For goodness sake stop this crap.
Ok This might be a trick my brain is playing but i see a triangle between the two rails underneath her chin. It is the same colour as the orange bit but looks attached to the side. Only others things that do not look right are her hair is longer on one side but braided on the shorter side so that may account for it. Also her hair hangs over the triangle but the front of her t shirt is behind it. Also would her hair not fall away from her face at that angle.

A triangle? Yes, Masonic symbolism. I think you are really onto something here. Quick! Phone Professor Langdon. He can solve the mystery!

(Bet some of you will take that seriously, too.)

In my opinion.

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".