SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
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Why are there 17 similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
@j.rob 1.36 pm today:
For how long did police continue to carry out searches of OC and surrounding apartments etc after 3rd May I wonder? With all the high level support that was given to them so early on, perhaps TM thought that apartment 5A was some kind of 'safe house'.
IIRC, the police stopped searching locally on Friday 11th May.
For how long did police continue to carry out searches of OC and surrounding apartments etc after 3rd May I wonder? With all the high level support that was given to them so early on, perhaps TM thought that apartment 5A was some kind of 'safe house'.
IIRC, the police stopped searching locally on Friday 11th May.
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
Ladyinred wrote:@j.rob 1.36 pm today:
For how long did police continue to carry out searches of OC and surrounding apartments etc after 3rd May I wonder? With all the high level support that was given to them so early on, perhaps TM thought that apartment 5A was some kind of 'safe house'.
IIRC, the police stopped searching locally on Friday 11th May.
Good point. As long as the Mcs were believed to be innocent, there would be no reason to search the apartment(s) again. A 'safe place' indeed.
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
At what stage did the doubts set in?Dee Coy wrote:Ladyinred wrote:@j.rob 1.36 pm today:
For how long did police continue to carry out searches of OC and surrounding apartments etc after 3rd May I wonder? With all the high level support that was given to them so early on, perhaps TM thought that apartment 5A was some kind of 'safe house'.
IIRC, the police stopped searching locally on Friday 11th May.
Good point. As long as the Mcs were believed to be innocent, there would be no reason to search the apartment(s) again. A 'safe place' indeed.
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
According to 'The Truth of the Lie' only seriously at the beginning of July, I believe.
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
Thanks,so hide a body in plain site during passage from where to where is the conundrum,IMO of course.Dee Coy wrote:According to 'The Truth of the Lie' only seriously at the beginning of July, I believe.
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
I'm doubt if the flat would have been used as a hiding place, but it's possible a body may have been brought back there after the event, temporarily. Particularly if it was a panic situation and any body was removed quickly that night without proper planning.
Some people believe there wasn't enough time for cadaver scent to develop that night from the McCanns leaving for dinner and Madeleine being reported missing. If what happened happened earlier in the week or day this could account for this. Another explanation would be for any body to be brought back briefly to the apartment after the 3rd.
All musings and speculation only.
Some people believe there wasn't enough time for cadaver scent to develop that night from the McCanns leaving for dinner and Madeleine being reported missing. If what happened happened earlier in the week or day this could account for this. Another explanation would be for any body to be brought back briefly to the apartment after the 3rd.
All musings and speculation only.
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
Replying to all points made re the Smith sighting by members since my long post on page 47, in the order in which they were made:
@ Doug D ( and @ HelenMeg )
re: Both camps are so adamant that they are right, that this has caused more dissent, disruption and acrimony, than any other issue, exactly the result that TM (who are no doubt feeding the fires in all of the forums) must wish for.
REPLY: That rather depends on who is right. Suppose for one moment that the Smiths did not see anyone and have made up their sighting for one reason or another. And suppose for one moment that both the Met and the McCann Team know this fine and are relying on this bogus ‘sighting’ to bring about the endgame: ‘We think the abductor was the man seen by the Smiths but unfortunately we can’t trace him’. If that were case, all hell would break loose against anybody who brought up cogent reasons for doubting the sighting, wouldn’t it?
re: I do not understand why it cannot be accepted that the Smiths probably did see someone carrying a young girl that night
REPLY: Because, I suggest, all the evidence we have about (a) the claimed sighting and (b) the provenance of the e-fits suggest that there in grave doubt about the ‘official’ version. I have posted a summary of all the contradictions on the new ‘Smithman 4’ thread. As I did with the 20 contradictions surrounding the alleged David Payne/Kate McCann meeting at 6.30pm on 3 May, I invite fellow members here to carefully examine all the contradictions and see if they can find a rational expnantion for why there are so many.
re: Tony’s stance in questioning the sighting from the opposite direction is equally as valid. Why the delay in reporting? There seems little to back up the ‘2 day report’ other than two press reports 6 years later which does not attribute this seemingly ‘new’ revelation to anything or anyone.
REPLY: Exactly – and these are only two of many questions about the ‘sighting’ and the ‘e-fits’.
re: I don’t understand [Martin Smith’s] comment about not held in a ‘comfortable position’. The way GM came off the plane carrying a child is the easiest and most comfortable position to carry someone, so why would you say otherwise?
REPLY: That throws into sharp relief, once again, the credibility of Martin Smith in claiming, over 4 months later, that he ‘recognised’ Gerry McCann from ‘the way he was carrying his child’. Thank you for bringing up this valuable additional point, which I’d overlooked
re: ‘Tannerman’ carry, however, is an unlikely and uncomfortable position as you cannot support a ‘nearly 4 year old’ child properly (if at all!) just in two hands or arms and personally I feel there is some confusion and subliminal input in his original statement, probably having already seen the description (and picture) which were released by the PJ the day before, on 25th May I believe
REPLY: I think that’s an excellent observation, which touches once again on those awkward 16 ‘carbon copy’ similarities’ between Tannerman and Smithman.
@ roy rovers
re: Yes if Smithman was real but not Gerry then good for TM to use to spread the notion of an abduction.
REPLY: Agreed
@ sharonl
re: It is also good for them to convince us all that May 3rd was the night of Madeleine’s disappearance and divert attention from the actual time. Most investigative work centred around May 3rd, perhaps more emphasis should have been placed on the McCanns movements earlier that week.
REPLY: Agreed that the Crimewatch programme fixed our attention no an abduction after 9.15pm and before 10.00pm on 3 May
@ Doug D
re: Honestly, I can't see Tony as the sort of person to be forced into becoming a quisling for any reason whatsoever. What can be gained?
REPLY: Thank you. But the theory that I have done a deal with the McCanns was heavily promoted, as most here probably know, on Cristobell’s blog, by former member here ‘russian doll’, and is still being promoted in another forum set up by Cristobell. I hope it’s obvious here that my arguments re the Smith ‘sighting’ are based purely on an honest evaluation of the evidence (in which I might be right or wrong) but nothing else
@ Gollum
re: As Sharonl pointed out, TM are quite happy for anybody to go over the 3rd of May until the end of time. It suits their agenda perfectly.
REPLY: Agreed
@ j.rob
Most of your post discusses the possibility of Madeleine having ‘died earlier in the week’, which I can’t discuss.
However, you also wrote:
“As for Smithman, it seems highly unlikely to have been Gerry carrying Madeleine unless there had been a monumental bodge-up. It could possibly have been someone carrying Madeleine to the emergency clinic down the road?? However I do think it is possible that it was staged. Someone who looked like Gerry carrying a child that could have been Madeleine just happened to conveniently walk past the Smith family of nine at a key time on a key date. (So the Smith family didn't really have to lie as such - this would be especially important in terms of keeping the story straight with the 12 year old - because they did see something.) Something to hold back for a rainy day, perhaps. Something to keep TM on their toes? Just a theory.
REPLY: I’ve considered that possibility but still maintain that fabrication is the more logical explanation for all the contradictions and the purported use of this ‘sighting’ by the Met and BBC Crimewatch.
@ WMD
Thank you for confirming (on another thread I think) that you are not me, contrary to tigger/Bagheera’s suspicions
@ Doug D ( and @ HelenMeg )
re: Both camps are so adamant that they are right, that this has caused more dissent, disruption and acrimony, than any other issue, exactly the result that TM (who are no doubt feeding the fires in all of the forums) must wish for.
REPLY: That rather depends on who is right. Suppose for one moment that the Smiths did not see anyone and have made up their sighting for one reason or another. And suppose for one moment that both the Met and the McCann Team know this fine and are relying on this bogus ‘sighting’ to bring about the endgame: ‘We think the abductor was the man seen by the Smiths but unfortunately we can’t trace him’. If that were case, all hell would break loose against anybody who brought up cogent reasons for doubting the sighting, wouldn’t it?
re: I do not understand why it cannot be accepted that the Smiths probably did see someone carrying a young girl that night
REPLY: Because, I suggest, all the evidence we have about (a) the claimed sighting and (b) the provenance of the e-fits suggest that there in grave doubt about the ‘official’ version. I have posted a summary of all the contradictions on the new ‘Smithman 4’ thread. As I did with the 20 contradictions surrounding the alleged David Payne/Kate McCann meeting at 6.30pm on 3 May, I invite fellow members here to carefully examine all the contradictions and see if they can find a rational expnantion for why there are so many.
re: Tony’s stance in questioning the sighting from the opposite direction is equally as valid. Why the delay in reporting? There seems little to back up the ‘2 day report’ other than two press reports 6 years later which does not attribute this seemingly ‘new’ revelation to anything or anyone.
REPLY: Exactly – and these are only two of many questions about the ‘sighting’ and the ‘e-fits’.
re: I don’t understand [Martin Smith’s] comment about not held in a ‘comfortable position’. The way GM came off the plane carrying a child is the easiest and most comfortable position to carry someone, so why would you say otherwise?
REPLY: That throws into sharp relief, once again, the credibility of Martin Smith in claiming, over 4 months later, that he ‘recognised’ Gerry McCann from ‘the way he was carrying his child’. Thank you for bringing up this valuable additional point, which I’d overlooked
re: ‘Tannerman’ carry, however, is an unlikely and uncomfortable position as you cannot support a ‘nearly 4 year old’ child properly (if at all!) just in two hands or arms and personally I feel there is some confusion and subliminal input in his original statement, probably having already seen the description (and picture) which were released by the PJ the day before, on 25th May I believe
REPLY: I think that’s an excellent observation, which touches once again on those awkward 16 ‘carbon copy’ similarities’ between Tannerman and Smithman.
@ roy rovers
re: Yes if Smithman was real but not Gerry then good for TM to use to spread the notion of an abduction.
REPLY: Agreed
@ sharonl
re: It is also good for them to convince us all that May 3rd was the night of Madeleine’s disappearance and divert attention from the actual time. Most investigative work centred around May 3rd, perhaps more emphasis should have been placed on the McCanns movements earlier that week.
REPLY: Agreed that the Crimewatch programme fixed our attention no an abduction after 9.15pm and before 10.00pm on 3 May
@ Doug D
re: Honestly, I can't see Tony as the sort of person to be forced into becoming a quisling for any reason whatsoever. What can be gained?
REPLY: Thank you. But the theory that I have done a deal with the McCanns was heavily promoted, as most here probably know, on Cristobell’s blog, by former member here ‘russian doll’, and is still being promoted in another forum set up by Cristobell. I hope it’s obvious here that my arguments re the Smith ‘sighting’ are based purely on an honest evaluation of the evidence (in which I might be right or wrong) but nothing else
@ Gollum
re: As Sharonl pointed out, TM are quite happy for anybody to go over the 3rd of May until the end of time. It suits their agenda perfectly.
REPLY: Agreed
@ j.rob
Most of your post discusses the possibility of Madeleine having ‘died earlier in the week’, which I can’t discuss.
However, you also wrote:
“As for Smithman, it seems highly unlikely to have been Gerry carrying Madeleine unless there had been a monumental bodge-up. It could possibly have been someone carrying Madeleine to the emergency clinic down the road?? However I do think it is possible that it was staged. Someone who looked like Gerry carrying a child that could have been Madeleine just happened to conveniently walk past the Smith family of nine at a key time on a key date. (So the Smith family didn't really have to lie as such - this would be especially important in terms of keeping the story straight with the 12 year old - because they did see something.) Something to hold back for a rainy day, perhaps. Something to keep TM on their toes? Just a theory.
REPLY: I’ve considered that possibility but still maintain that fabrication is the more logical explanation for all the contradictions and the purported use of this ‘sighting’ by the Met and BBC Crimewatch.
@ WMD
Thank you for confirming (on another thread I think) that you are not me, contrary to tigger/Bagheera’s suspicions
____________________
Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"
Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
tigger wrote:Tony Bennett wrote:If we look at the poll results so far, they are interesting.
80 have voted.
The fact that there are 17 similarities between the two sightings (or 15 if RIPM is right) is clearly hard to explain, hence the number of people (51) voting 'some other reason'. But almost none of those who voted 'some other reason' can think of an adequate explanation - or, if they can, have not said what it is.
Which leaves 29 who 'buy' one of the three explanations offered.
Of these, just 5 (17%) agree that "Crecheman and Smithman are one and the same - he had to walk a very long way back home from the crèche" (same man).
A further 3 (9.7%) agree that "There were two virtually identical men with virtually identical clothes each taking their virtually identical children somewhere - just one of those amazing coincidences" (different men, but looking near-identical with identical children
But 21 (72%) agree with the proposition that "Both Jane Tanner and Martin Smith were working to a script and neither actually saw anyone" (no Tannerman, no Smithman)
I don't think raw data can be subdivided like this - there are not 3 but 4 options in all. The majority have voted for option 4.
80 votes are 100%
29 votes = 36.25%
51 votes = 63.75%
5 votes (of the 29) = 6.25%
3 votes ( of the 29) = 3.75%
21 votes (of the 29) = 26.25%
Therefore 63.75 % opted for another scenario than the three given out of a total number of 4 options.
If say the questions had been:
Would you vote for:
Conservative,
Labour
Liberal
Other
All four options have to be considered imo.
I hope the above is clear enough Tony, as your latest communication to me seemed to take exception to the fact that it was also mentioned elsewhere.
However, I had posted it on the open forum and have never had a reply to this post.
Screenshot 9.05
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
The theory that I subscribe to regarding Smithman is here:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
So far, I have found nothing that makes me believe anything else. According to this theory Martin Smith gave details of his sighting in secret to the Police before it was made public.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
So far, I have found nothing that makes me believe anything else. According to this theory Martin Smith gave details of his sighting in secret to the Police before it was made public.
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
@ HelenMegHelenMeg wrote:The theory that I subscribe to regarding Smithman is here:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
So far, I have found nothing that makes me believe anything else. According to this theory Martin Smith gave details of his sighting in secret to the Police before it was made public.
This is hardly a 'theory' - it's a fact that we all know, HelenMeg.
Textusa points out that the Smiths were interviewed on 26 May 2007 and that news about the sighting leaked out in August. Nothing new at all in that - I've covered this point before in my various writings on 'Smithman'.
Unfortunately, Textusa's theory is littered with simple errors.
She writes, for example:
"Martin Smith telephoned Leicester Police the evening of September 9th saying he recognised Gerry McCann".
The evidence however is that he did not make a statement to this effect until 20th September. Unless you can show me a link or article that says otherwise?
Textusa also adds:
"I believe McCann walked through the streets with Tanner's sedated child dressed in Madeleine's pyjamas".
Apart from Smith's highly dubious claim that he 'recognised' Gerry McCann 'from the way he carried his child down the aircraft steps', is there any other evidence whatsoever that supports this bizarre belief?
And, since you 'subscribe to' Textusa's theory, do you personally believe that Gerry was carrying Jane Tanner's child dressed in Madeleine's pyjamas through the streets of Praia da Luz at 10.00pm that evening? Seriously?
As for Textusa's reference:
"Smith had seen Murat, if briefly, before..."
we have direct quotes from Martin and Peter Smith informing us:
a) that he had known Murat for at least two years and
b) that he and Murat 'had met on several occasions'
ETA:
The poll gives three possible explanations for why there are these 17/16/15 remarkable similarities between 'Tannerman' and 'Smithman', and the votes so far are as follows:
(1) 'Both Jane Tanner and Martin Smith were working to a script and neither actually saw anyone' - 28 votes
(2) 'Crecheman and Smithman are one and the same - he had to walk a very long way back home from the crèche' - 6 votes
(3) 'There were two virtually identical men with virtually identical clothes each taking their virtually identical children somewhere - just one of those amazing coincidences' - 5 votes.
There appear to be two additional explanations now offered on this thread:
(4) The Smiths saw Gerry McCann, which he hadn't bargained for, so after he had hidden Madeleine somewhere, he rushed back to the Ocean Club, got hold of Jane Tanner and said something like: "Quick, make up a description exactly like me, except make the length and colour of my hair a bit different". Russell O'Brien then wrote down that Jane Tanner had seen someone carrying a child at 9.15/9.20pm that evening
(5) What I will refer to as the 'Textusa-&-HelenMeg' explanation: "The Smiths saw Gerry McCann, which he hadn't bargained for. At the time he was carrying Jane Tanner's child, dressed in Madeleine's pyjamas. He then rushed back to the Ocean Club (with or without Jane Tanner's child is not stated by Textusa), got hold of Jane Tanner and said something like: "Quick, make up a description exactly like me, except make the length and colour of my hair a bit different". Russell O'Brien then wrote down that Jane Tanner had seen someone carrying a child at 9.15/9.20pm that evening.
TWO QUESTIONS:
A. How many members here support one of explanations (4) and (5) above?
B. How many members here reject all 5 explanations above for the 15/16/17 similarities and, if so, do they have any other rational explanation for these remarkable similarities?
____________________
Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"
Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
@ HelenMeg
Reminder of my question yesterday (above):
And, since you 'subscribe to' Textusa's theory, do you personally believe that Gerry was carrying Jane Tanner's child dressed in Madeleine's pyjamas through the streets of Praia da Luz at 10.00pm that evening? Seriously?
Reminder of my question yesterday (above):
And, since you 'subscribe to' Textusa's theory, do you personally believe that Gerry was carrying Jane Tanner's child dressed in Madeleine's pyjamas through the streets of Praia da Luz at 10.00pm that evening? Seriously?
____________________
Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"
Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
Hi TonyTony Bennett wrote:@ HelenMeg
Reminder of my question yesterday (above):
And, since you 'subscribe to' Textusa's theory, do you personally believe that Gerry was carrying Jane Tanner's child dressed in Madeleine's pyjamas through the streets of Praia da Luz at 10.00pm that evening? Seriously?
Sorry was not ignoring just simply had been looking at different threads etc.
In my opinion, based on everything I read and also trying to put myself in the situation which I believe occurred that night ( a group of people, IMO, staging an abduction scenario, full of adrenaline, thinking on their feet perhaps at times, making rash decisions possibly and certainly making mistakes), I think that GM took a child and wished to be seen as a potential abductor in the streets of Praia de Luz. I dont think he wished to be scrutinised by any witnesses - simply observed from a distance. This , he believed, on that night would ensure that the wider public believed than an abduction had taken place. It was a stupid decision, perhaps, in hindsight. I believe that they made mistakes and this was one of them. I believe it is human nature under that scenario to make errors - and therefore to me it is highly credible. I perhaps would have done this too, in that scenario. 'How can we make people believe in an abduction? Lets have one of us or two of us carry a child as if we are abducting it... otherwise who the hell will believe us? '
In the heat of the moment that is what I think happened. But it backfired. IMO.
But a lot of us here have differing opinions as to what happened - whether Smithman existed etc etc etc. That is what I believe, but am not too concerned if noone else here believes it. It is one opinion amongst many!!
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
Thing is, if Gerry was prancing around the Streets wanting to be seen so that their abduction story would gain credence...he didn't do a very good job of it. To be seen by only one family must have been a massive failure.
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
Well, from my point of view, he only needed 1 - too many could be disastrous. As it happened it was disastrous anyway. Anyway..nomendelta wrote:Thing is, if Gerry was prancing around the Streets wanting to be seen so that their abduction story would gain credence...he didn't do a very good job of it. To be seen by only one family must have been a massive failure.
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
I tend to think (though not 100%) that Madeleine died earlier that the 3rd May, possibly the Tuesday eve/early Wednesday morning.
IF the flat had been intensely cleaned then that requires pre-planning. Why would the McCann's decide to remove the body almost at the same time the alarm was given? It just doesn't make sense, surely IF they planned the whole abduction charade wouldn't they have removed the body well beforehand to set the scene?
I am now of the opinion that Gerry McCann was at the Ocean Club at the time of the smith sighting. Didn't Mr Amaral discount the Smith sighting due to witnesses putting McCann there?
Martin Smith and his family probably did see someone carrying a child, and he was telling the truth as he saw it, but it was not Madeleine.
The whole thing is just a big red herring perhaps.
IF the flat had been intensely cleaned then that requires pre-planning. Why would the McCann's decide to remove the body almost at the same time the alarm was given? It just doesn't make sense, surely IF they planned the whole abduction charade wouldn't they have removed the body well beforehand to set the scene?
I am now of the opinion that Gerry McCann was at the Ocean Club at the time of the smith sighting. Didn't Mr Amaral discount the Smith sighting due to witnesses putting McCann there?
Martin Smith and his family probably did see someone carrying a child, and he was telling the truth as he saw it, but it was not Madeleine.
The whole thing is just a big red herring perhaps.
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
I am not certain ,but I thought the cleaning must have been sometime after the night she was taken? There were quite a no . of people in and out of said apt. as soon as the call went out .they have taken her /? so hairs and dne could been left by a no . of folk ? before the pj got there ?just a thought and memory / was the dna of friends and police looked at ? difficult to know if anyone else could have entrered that apartment not that I believe she was kidnapped. joyce1938
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
HelenMeg wrote:Well, from my point of view, he only needed 1 - too many could be disastrous. As it happened it was disastrous anyway. Anyway..nomendelta wrote:Thing is, if Gerry was prancing around the Streets wanting to be seen so that their abduction story would gain credence...he didn't do a very good job of it. To be seen by only one family must have been a massive failure.
How can GM determine exactly how many people he wanted to be seen by? Their apartments are surrounded by other apartments - if you're on an upper floor you can look down and see all the action. So having left 5A he heads south towards Kelly's bar. The alarm is raised in the Tapas Bar, there's chaos but GM isnt there because he's on his way back with a child in his arms - and no other person spots him! Thats the problem I have. If you're in one of the apartments around 5A you can see what's going on. But nobody spotted GM coming back. Is he that lucky?
The sightings are far too convenient for my liking. In each case, Tanner or Smiths, they bail somebody out of trouble GM and Murat.
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
It would be taking a massive risk though as someone might actually have rung the police and said there was a man acting suspiciously walking round PdL with a child in his arms on a cold night, with bare feet and no jacket/coat on (the child that is).HelenMeg wrote:Well, from my point of view, he only needed 1 - too many could be disastrous. As it happened it was disastrous anyway. Anyway..nomendelta wrote:Thing is, if Gerry was prancing around the Streets wanting to be seen so that their abduction story would gain credence...he didn't do a very good job of it. To be seen by only one family must have been a massive failure.
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
Not really Plebgate.
If this scenario was played out and someone had reported him and the Police turned up, he could just say:
'Daughters gone missing, out trying to find her and my son (or daughter) was awake so I had to bring him (her) with me. Wife's going out looking with the other child.'
If this scenario was played out and someone had reported him and the Police turned up, he could just say:
'Daughters gone missing, out trying to find her and my son (or daughter) was awake so I had to bring him (her) with me. Wife's going out looking with the other child.'
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
Yes, that's a possibility Doug D, but if "the walker" had said that his child had gone missing then the police would not have left it at that, they would have taken immediate action and gone back to the apartment to see what it was all about?
plebgate- Posts : 6729
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
plebgate wrote:Yes, that's a possibility Doug D, but if "the walker" had said that his child had gone missing then the police would not have left it at that, they would have taken immediate action and gone back to the apartment to see what it was all about?
And the police report would have noted
"We encountered the male parent with a child sometime after 10pm stating his wife was looking for their missing daughter".
The simulated abduction would been destroyed right there.
____________________
"It is my belief that Scotland Yard was set out on a mission, not one to find out what happened to Madeleine McCann but to rewrite the history of the case in such a way that the majority of the public simply forgets the past." - The Pat Brown Criminal Profiling Agency
SixMillionQuid- Posts : 436
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
That might have actually helped them out!
They’d have had 45 minutes less to rip up colouring books, phone family , delete texts, sow confusion, trash crime scene, etc etc.
All the anomalies that have subsequently been challenged.
eta. Six Million Quid:
At the time they still had Tannerman.
They’d have had 45 minutes less to rip up colouring books, phone family , delete texts, sow confusion, trash crime scene, etc etc.
All the anomalies that have subsequently been challenged.
eta. Six Million Quid:
At the time they still had Tannerman.
Doug D- Posts : 3719
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
Doug D wrote:
At the time they still had Tannerman.
Then why would GM need to be walking around PdL? Tannerman is going in the wrong direction of the simulated abduction.
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"It is my belief that Scotland Yard was set out on a mission, not one to find out what happened to Madeleine McCann but to rewrite the history of the case in such a way that the majority of the public simply forgets the past." - The Pat Brown Criminal Profiling Agency
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
Who knows?
Just to add to the confusion maybe, if either sighting or the underlying events actually happened?
Just to add to the confusion maybe, if either sighting or the underlying events actually happened?
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
Thank you very much for for your reply.HelenMeg wrote:In my opinion, based on everything I read and also trying to put myself in the situation which I believe occurred that night ( a group of people, IMO, staging an abduction scenario, full of adrenaline, thinking on their feet perhaps at times, making rash decisions possibly and certainly making mistakes), I think that GM took a child and wished to be seen as a potential abductor in the streets of Praia de Luz. I dont think he wished to be scrutinised by any witnesses - simply observed from a distance. This , he believed, on that night would ensure that the wider public believed than an abduction had taken place. It was a stupid decision, perhaps, in hindsight. I believe that they made mistakes and this was one of them. I believe it is human nature under that scenario to make errors - and therefore to me it is highly credible. I perhaps would have done this too, in that scenario. 'How can we make people believe in an abduction? Lets have one of us or two of us carry a child as if we are abducting it... otherwise who the hell will believe us? '
In the heat of the moment that is what I think happened. But it backfired. IMO.
But a lot of us here have differing opinions as to what happened - whether Smithman existed etc etc etc. That is what I believe, but am not too concerned if noone else here believes it. It is one opinion amongst many!!
I may of course be wrong about 'Smithman' but I have put together pages of evidence and reasoned analysis of the facts as to why there is cause for doubt about the claimed 'sighting'.
You were quite clear in accepting Textusa's beliefs and indeed you've repeated them above.
This is the bit I struggle with: where you say: 'based on everything I have read'.
Would you be kind enough please to share with us the specific things you've read, the specific links and facts you rely on, the EVIDENCE, for believing that the Smiths saw GERRY MCCANN carrying ONE OF JANE TANNER'S CHILDREN at 10.00pm on the evening of 3 May.
I am lost.
And in terms of evidence, what reliance do you place on the evidence of a man who waits for 13 days to report a sighting of a man with a child when the whole world and its media are publicising he day after day, and who then takes 11 days (9 to 20 September) to report that based on the way he was carrying his child on his left shoulder he was '60% to 80% sure that it was Gerry McCann he'd seen over 4 months earlier - and after he and his fellow family members admitted that they'd seen him only for a few seconds at most, in the dark, with weak street lighting, and all agreed on 26 May that they would never be able to recognise him again if they saw him?
____________________
Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"
Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".
Tony Bennett- Investigator
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
The McCanns had been at PDL almost a week, playing tennis, taking the kids to the creche, eating breakfast, lunch, and dinner in various places, intermingling with workers and tourists alike.
There's no way on earth Gerry McCann would risk scurrying through the village with a live child for the sole purpose of being seen, but hopefully not recognised, at the time a 3 year old was allegedly being abducted. The mere idea is completely and utterly implausible (imho).
There's no way on earth Gerry McCann would risk scurrying through the village with a live child for the sole purpose of being seen, but hopefully not recognised, at the time a 3 year old was allegedly being abducted. The mere idea is completely and utterly implausible (imho).
pennylane- Posts : 2770
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
Surely if you wanted to EITHER remove a child from an apartment without being seen OR remove a child's body from an apartment without raising any suspicion, you would not be walking around carrying that child?
It just doesn't make much sense.
Especially in the manner that Tanner-man was supposed to be carrying a child - in an awkward way across arms so the the child's face would be exposed. I mean, that is just nuts. At the very least, surely, you would make sure the child's face was hidden? You would hold the child against you to conceal the child's identity? At the very least.
So Tanner-man is absurd. That TM resorted to Tanner-man at all suggests, to me, that this was a very last-minute panic reaction that had not been thought out properly. (Jane Tanner in a complete panic covering up for Russell O'Brien's involvement in what happened?
Smith-man - although not quite as nutty as Tanner-man also seems implausible. Walking along a relatively long road lit (albeit badly) by street-lights at a time of night when there are likely to be people walking back from restaurants or going to bars? Again, not covering the child. Although at least Smith-man is carrying the child is a realistic manner and the face is not exposed to view.
I don't buy Tanner-man (but then no-one does not even Andy Redwood! lol!) And I don't buy Smith-man as Gerry carrying a deceased Madeleine. If Madeleine was dead by Thursday evening (as detective Amaral believes) then TM would have found a much less suspicious and obvious way of removing her body from the apartment (or from where-ever she was).
For instance, in a sports bag. Or possibly a buggy. Or a laundry carrier. Or something that would attract no particular suspicion if it was seen being carried or pushed around as it would be a normal sight in a holiday resort.
I also rule out Smith-man as being Gerry being caught by the Smiths in the act of taking an alive Madeleine away somewhere and then pretending that she had been abducted or kidnapped by a stranger. In other words, being caught red-handed in a faked abduction plot.
Again, this makes no sense. For much the same reasons as why it wouldn't have been Gerry carrying a deceased Madeleine. He might as well have put a stocking over his head and be carrying a swag-bag.
Again, if Madeleine was still alive when removed from the resort but the McCanns were complicit in this but wanted to conceal this, then surely they would do their utmost to conceal this? Not have Gerry wandering along a nearby road at the precise time that the 'abductor' is supposed to have fled? That's nuts, imo. Presumably they would have removed Madeleine prior to the alarm being raised? Well before the arrival of police. And they would do it in a manner which would attract as little suspicion as possible. If Madeleine had been heavily sedated she could have been put into a sports bag or buggy I suppose.
There are a couple of scenarios which I think are possible for Smith-man, albeit unlikely.
One is that there was a last minute major panic. Madeleine was very ill/injured/abused and required emergency treatment and Gerry or someone who looked like Gerry ran off carrying Madeleine to get help.
This scenario is possible whether or not there was much pre-planning. If there had been a plan to stage a faked abduction that week (possibly even planned prior to the holiday) then this scenario would to some extent explain why it all seems like such a botch-job. The time-lines going wrong. Different accounts of where everyone was. And so on.
If there had been no pre-planning to stage a faked abduction at all prior to that week, then a straightforward accident in the apartment doesn't really go far enough to explain why such an elaborate hoax was staged (albeit incredibly badly). Why go to such extreme lengths to cover up an accident?
In my opinion, it must have been MORE than just a tragic accident like banging her head. TM must also have have wanted at all cost to avoid Madeleine (and possibly the twins too) being treated in hospital. Why? Possible explanations: to cover up sedation or other drug use; to cover up abuse; to cover up medical negligence (and these are not mutually exclusive of course.)
I'm going to take a look at the route taken by the early sniffer dogs. Which might provide some clues.
And look up the threads on the blue tennis bag.
Just a theory, as always.
It just doesn't make much sense.
Especially in the manner that Tanner-man was supposed to be carrying a child - in an awkward way across arms so the the child's face would be exposed. I mean, that is just nuts. At the very least, surely, you would make sure the child's face was hidden? You would hold the child against you to conceal the child's identity? At the very least.
So Tanner-man is absurd. That TM resorted to Tanner-man at all suggests, to me, that this was a very last-minute panic reaction that had not been thought out properly. (Jane Tanner in a complete panic covering up for Russell O'Brien's involvement in what happened?
Smith-man - although not quite as nutty as Tanner-man also seems implausible. Walking along a relatively long road lit (albeit badly) by street-lights at a time of night when there are likely to be people walking back from restaurants or going to bars? Again, not covering the child. Although at least Smith-man is carrying the child is a realistic manner and the face is not exposed to view.
I don't buy Tanner-man (but then no-one does not even Andy Redwood! lol!) And I don't buy Smith-man as Gerry carrying a deceased Madeleine. If Madeleine was dead by Thursday evening (as detective Amaral believes) then TM would have found a much less suspicious and obvious way of removing her body from the apartment (or from where-ever she was).
For instance, in a sports bag. Or possibly a buggy. Or a laundry carrier. Or something that would attract no particular suspicion if it was seen being carried or pushed around as it would be a normal sight in a holiday resort.
I also rule out Smith-man as being Gerry being caught by the Smiths in the act of taking an alive Madeleine away somewhere and then pretending that she had been abducted or kidnapped by a stranger. In other words, being caught red-handed in a faked abduction plot.
Again, this makes no sense. For much the same reasons as why it wouldn't have been Gerry carrying a deceased Madeleine. He might as well have put a stocking over his head and be carrying a swag-bag.
Again, if Madeleine was still alive when removed from the resort but the McCanns were complicit in this but wanted to conceal this, then surely they would do their utmost to conceal this? Not have Gerry wandering along a nearby road at the precise time that the 'abductor' is supposed to have fled? That's nuts, imo. Presumably they would have removed Madeleine prior to the alarm being raised? Well before the arrival of police. And they would do it in a manner which would attract as little suspicion as possible. If Madeleine had been heavily sedated she could have been put into a sports bag or buggy I suppose.
There are a couple of scenarios which I think are possible for Smith-man, albeit unlikely.
One is that there was a last minute major panic. Madeleine was very ill/injured/abused and required emergency treatment and Gerry or someone who looked like Gerry ran off carrying Madeleine to get help.
This scenario is possible whether or not there was much pre-planning. If there had been a plan to stage a faked abduction that week (possibly even planned prior to the holiday) then this scenario would to some extent explain why it all seems like such a botch-job. The time-lines going wrong. Different accounts of where everyone was. And so on.
If there had been no pre-planning to stage a faked abduction at all prior to that week, then a straightforward accident in the apartment doesn't really go far enough to explain why such an elaborate hoax was staged (albeit incredibly badly). Why go to such extreme lengths to cover up an accident?
In my opinion, it must have been MORE than just a tragic accident like banging her head. TM must also have have wanted at all cost to avoid Madeleine (and possibly the twins too) being treated in hospital. Why? Possible explanations: to cover up sedation or other drug use; to cover up abuse; to cover up medical negligence (and these are not mutually exclusive of course.)
I'm going to take a look at the route taken by the early sniffer dogs. Which might provide some clues.
And look up the threads on the blue tennis bag.
Just a theory, as always.
j.rob- Posts : 2243
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
joyce you are probably right about the 'lntense' cleaning being done after Madeleine was taken. I still maintain though that apartment 5 was set up well before the alarm.joyce1938 wrote:I am not certain ,but I thought the cleaning must have been sometime after the night she was taken? There were quite a no . of people in and out of said apt. as soon as the call went out .they have taken her /? so hairs and dne could been left by a no . of folk ? before the pj got there ?just a thought and memory / was the dna of friends and police looked at ? difficult to know if anyone else could have entrered that apartment not that I believe she was kidnapped. joyce1938
Madeleine's bed for one example. That looked so staged. Imagine going to find your child gone from her bed, the last place you saw her. Wouldn't you rip back the bedclothes in disbelief, looking for some clue like blood, vomit, anything?
Another example. The twins were not in that bedroom, they were hastily returned to their cots, the cots that had no sheets.
Quite possibly sedated so that there would be no interruption to deal with.
I think that the children's bedroom was empty, until Kate raised the alarm.
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You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all the people all of the time. Abraham Lincoln.
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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?
Hi TonyTony Bennett wrote:Thank you very much for for your reply.HelenMeg wrote:In my opinion, based on everything I read and also trying to put myself in the situation which I believe occurred that night ( a group of people, IMO, staging an abduction scenario, full of adrenaline, thinking on their feet perhaps at times, making rash decisions possibly and certainly making mistakes), I think that GM took a child and wished to be seen as a potential abductor in the streets of Praia de Luz. I dont think he wished to be scrutinised by any witnesses - simply observed from a distance. This , he believed, on that night would ensure that the wider public believed than an abduction had taken place. It was a stupid decision, perhaps, in hindsight. I believe that they made mistakes and this was one of them. I believe it is human nature under that scenario to make errors - and therefore to me it is highly credible. I perhaps would have done this too, in that scenario. 'How can we make people believe in an abduction? Lets have one of us or two of us carry a child as if we are abducting it... otherwise who the hell will believe us? '
In the heat of the moment that is what I think happened. But it backfired. IMO.
But a lot of us here have differing opinions as to what happened - whether Smithman existed etc etc etc. That is what I believe, but am not too concerned if noone else here believes it. It is one opinion amongst many!!
I may of course be wrong about 'Smithman' but I have put together pages of evidence and reasoned analysis of the facts as to why there is cause for doubt about the claimed 'sighting'.
You were quite clear in accepting Textusa's beliefs and indeed you've repeated them above.
This is the bit I struggle with: where you say: 'based on everything I have read'.
Would you be kind enough please to share with us the specific things you've read, the specific links and facts you rely on, the EVIDENCE, for believing that the Smiths saw GERRY MCCANN carrying ONE OF JANE TANNER'S CHILDREN at 10.00pm on the evening of 3 May.
I am lost.
And in terms of evidence, what reliance do you place on the evidence of a man who waits for 13 days to report a sighting of a man with a child when the whole world and its media are publicising he day after day, and who then takes 11 days (9 to 20 September) to report that based on the way he was carrying his child on his left shoulder he was '60% to 80% sure that it was Gerry McCann he'd seen over 4 months earlier - and after he and his fellow family members admitted that they'd seen him only for a few seconds at most, in the dark, with weak street lighting, and all agreed on 26 May that they would never be able to recognise him again if they saw him?
Firstly, I am a fan of yours - for the work you put in and for the lengths you go to to back up your beliefs. I am a fan of Textusa for the same reasons and admit that until I read her blog then my beliefs regarding Smithman were not formed in any shape or form.
I have read so many different sources on this case and cant hope to recall them all. But I really dont want to convince anyone to believe what I believe. I dont want to attempt to win people over to my belief because I am too lazy to try and back up my belief with evidence and research. My beliefs regarding Smithman, that were formed after reading various Textusa blog posts on Smithman, fitted in with my overall understanding of the case from having read endless media reports, internet sources, 3 arguidos forum, Mirror forum etc. Importantly for me, I am comfortable with my beliefs about Smithman. I like observing how people behave and why. GM walking around with a live child to back up the abduction is feasible. It is how I believe he would act under pressure, trying to control the show. It was a mistake.
I am comfortable that the Smiths took a long time to come forward. It is feasible to me that they needed prompting. It just is. I cant pretend otherwise. I might have taken that long too, depending on various factors or circumstances.
However, what I believe and what stands up in court are different matters. You make a very good case for your beliefs and I applaud that. But for whatever reason, I still believe what I have outlined in previous posts. But as I keep saying, it is not important to me to try to convince anyone else here.
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» SMITHMAN 9 - Is Goncalo Amaral sticking to his original conclusions re Smithman?
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» SMITHMAN 8 - The Nine Phases of Smithman - How the Smiths became part of the McCann Team in January 2008
» SMITHMAN 7: What is the actual evidence that makes people think that ‘Smithman’ was Gerry McCann?
» Was Wojcek Krokowski - 'Sagres man with a camera' - the template for both 'Tannerman' and 'Smithman'?
» Was Wojcek Krokowski - 'Sagres man with a camera' - the template for both 'Tannerman' and 'Smithman'?
» SMITHMAN 8 - The Nine Phases of Smithman - How the Smiths became part of the McCann Team in January 2008
» SMITHMAN 7: What is the actual evidence that makes people think that ‘Smithman’ was Gerry McCann?
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