Re: Investigator ensures that Maddie's body in the backyard of Murat

by fabpete 25.09.12 22:24

ShuBob,
never mind heavy equipment, where would they find a spade in the dark in an area that they were not familiar with?
I did ask the question on the thread he started but there was no reply.
Its not like anyone would be in the frame of mind to wander round looking for a spade or pick after having found a dead child is it?

by bobbin 25.09.12 23:19

fabpete wrote:ShuBob,
never mind heavy equipment, where would they find a spade in the dark in an area that they were not familiar with?
I did ask the question on the thread he started but there was no reply.
Its not like anyone would be in the frame of mind to wander round looking for a spade or pick after having found a dead child is it?

Mr. Birch's theory is like the whole McCann story. The more you look at it the less it holds together. It's full of holes.

by Woofer 25.09.12 23:23

ShuBob wrote:
Woofer wrote:
Spaniel wrote:I don't think you'll need your tin hat winjoy.

The reason I was asking about the path construction is if you had a body buried in your garden, you'd hardly risk bringing in contractors to lay tarmac. SB has mentioned both tarmac and gravel, it's not libellous to answer the question.

Don`t see why not - surely its an excellent way to secure the burial site.

And what if the contractors happen upon the body? Is that really a risk worth taking?

Tarmac contractors don`t dig the ground up before they tarmac it, so they wouldn`t be aware of what was under the ground. The topsoil could have been spread elsewhere. But agree that they cadaver dog should have sniffed it out as the tarmac had not been laid at that point. However, SB says the `area` was covered with pipes and rubble at the time of the cadaver dog search and might not have been guided to search there if it looked like an area that hadn`t been disturbed for a long time.

by ShuBob 25.09.12 23:45

Woofer wrote:
ShuBob wrote:
Woofer wrote:
Spaniel wrote:I don't think you'll need your tin hat winjoy.

The reason I was asking about the path construction is if you had a body buried in your garden, you'd hardly risk bringing in contractors to lay tarmac. SB has mentioned both tarmac and gravel, it's not libellous to answer the question.

Don`t see why not - surely its an excellent way to secure the burial site.

And what if the contractors happen upon the body? Is that really a risk worth taking?

Tarmac contractors don`t dig the ground up before they tarmac it, so they wouldn`t be aware of what was under the ground. The topsoil could have been spread elsewhere. But agree that they cadaver dog should have sniffed it out as the tarmac had not been laid at that point. However, SB says the `area` was covered with pipes and rubble at the time of the cadaver dog search and might not have been guided to search there if it looked like an area that hadn`t been disturbed for a long time.

They may not have to dig but gases from the body may have disturbed the soil making it necessary to dig a bit or at least, attempt to spread the soil. Bear in mind the hole was meant to have been dug in a mere 15 minutes. How deep could it have been? Did the digger return to dig a deeper hole? It's a stupid risk IMO. With regards to the cadaver dog, if you've seen footage of Eddie in action (or even search and rescue dogs), you would see that junk like pipes and rubble would not have prevented the detection of the so-called scent of death. For a police search, I think such an area with a lot of rubble would have been of much interest to them.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, Stephen Birch's theory makes no sense whatsoever to me.

by roy rovers 26.09.12 0:27

The way this forum works as I understand it is that years of work by hundreds of people in terms of minute analysis of the evidence and careful questioning of the facts has built up a solid base that allows various conclusions to be drawn or further questions to be asked. Sure we don't know exactly what happened but most of us have a pretty good general idea. The problem with SB is that he is coming at the mystery from the opposite end. He starts with the 'solution' but offers no build up in terms of how his solution might be true. He doesn't really belong here unless he has something else to offer. He is just playing 'pin the tail on the donkey' in terms of guessing where she might be.

by roy rovers 26.09.12 9:16

Mastic asphalt has been used for centuries as a waterproof roofing membrane. It comprises bitumen (tar) and sand. So perhaps the tarmac layer below the gravel drive comprising bitumen (tar) and gravel was used to create an impermeable barrier to any vapours from below. The guys who laid this drive must have had some suspicions - maybe there are rumours locally (like the item some months ago about local landlords being aware of the risks to the children of tourists getting injured by banging their heads on solid floors). Just a thought - filling in the bits SB hasn't filled in.

by Woofer 26.09.12 10:07

ShuBob wrote:Anyway, to cut a long story short, Stephen Birch's theory makes no sense whatsoever to me.

No, it doesn`t to me either, but I still feel his motives are sincere; mainly from listening to the guy. When hearing him talk, he doesn`t sound like some wise guy on the make and doesn`t come across as the sort of person who would be involved in the type of game playing and manipulation that is TM`s MO. He just doesn`t seem that personality type.

by Guest 26.09.12 10:33

Woofer wrote:
ShuBob wrote:Anyway, to cut a long story short, Stephen Birch's theory makes no sense whatsoever to me.

No, it doesn`t to me either, but I still feel his motives are sincere; mainly from listening to the guy. When hearing him talk, he doesn`t sound like some wise guy on the make and doesn`t come across as the sort of person who would be involved in the type of game playing and manipulation that is TM`s MO. He just doesn`t seem that personality type.

Well, I've reactivated his account and told him if he's coming here then he's to answer questions, interact with people if he wants to be taken seriously and to be civil or he'll be on his bike again. We exchanged a few emails last night so let's just see what happens if he comes back.

by aiyoyo 26.09.12 11:52

Spaniel wrote:Aiyoyo, I was the one who asked whether he wanted donations or diggers and it seems I was half right on the latter. It was more a josh with candyfloss than with him, as cf had replied to his remark on digging.

He obviously wasn't offended by it, as he replied 30 minutes later, that he wanted the word spread via Facebook, which I couldn't help with either, not being a member.

You will see his abuse started on page 61. On P62, I stated that I recognised his frustration and anger but to calm down and that I wished him to continue posting here. Obviously I could see where it was heading but didn't want that to happen.

Although I was sorry to see him go, I can fully understand candyfloss, as all posters should be treated the same. You can imagine the backlash if someone else was banned and he wasn't for the same breach of rules.

Some decisions to ban, on the surface I find bizarre, but then I don't know the behind the scenes story. Such as using a banned ip, or a post by them may have been hastily removed to avoid litigation.

Admin and candyfloss give their time freely, we posters get to interact FOC on a subject we care about. Therefore I'm willing to accept whatever they decide. Their forum, not mine. Thankyou both. I don't post much at present but I read everyday.

On this occasion Aiyoyo, I feel wrongly blamed.

Look back and see for yourself. As you had no input whatsoever from when SB entered p61 until he was exited on p66 when you jumped in complaining, I don't see what your gripe is. Why didn't you defend him as I did? Too late now he's gone, no point blaming someone else.

Hey Spaniel, maybe it's moot point now that SB's given a chance to interact again.

Nevertheless I feel it's only right to respond to your above post by saying I not in same time zone and by the time I looked 6 pages had gone past and all the hulabaloo history.

I was trying to make a point I'd expressed previously ie that everything has to be taken into the right context.
That regardless of what motivates SB, the point is, he's another person just like us who's on a quest for the truth because he didnt buy mccanns' story. Except he's proactive spending time, and money (importantly of his own, which is ten thousand times better than the mccanns ever did for their own daughter), as well as lobbying the authorities to take his work seriously, Those are facts we cant ignore irrespective of our view of his method and theory.

by Woofer 26.09.12 12:06

admin wrote:
Woofer wrote:
ShuBob wrote:Anyway, to cut a long story short, Stephen Birch's theory makes no sense whatsoever to me.

No, it doesn`t to me either, but I still feel his motives are sincere; mainly from listening to the guy. When hearing him talk, he doesn`t sound like some wise guy on the make and doesn`t come across as the sort of person who would be involved in the type of game playing and manipulation that is TM`s MO. He just doesn`t seem that personality type.

Well, I've reactivated his account and told him if he's coming here then he's to answer questions, interact with people if he wants to be taken seriously and to be civil or he'll be on his bike again. We exchanged a few emails last night so let's just see what happens if he comes back.

Keep in mind that he can`t answer all questions - he has to be careful what he says, that`s if he`s the real SB.

by cath2756 26.09.12 12:11

roy rovers wrote:Mastic asphalt has been used for centuries as a waterproof roofing membrane. It comprises bitumen (tar) and sand. So perhaps the tarmac layer below the gravel drive comprising bitumen (tar) and gravel was used to create an impermeable barrier to any vapours from below. The guys who laid this drive must have had some suspicions - maybe there are rumours locally (like the item some months ago about local landlords being aware of the risks to the children of tourists getting injured by banging their heads on solid floors). Just a thought - filling in the bits SB hasn't filled in.

I have a vague memory of a CSI episode where lime was used to either hasten composition and disguise any odour. It could be that lime was used and that fooled the sniffer dogs. Again my memory is very hazy but maybe someone her would have knowledge on the effects of lime on a cadaver and the effect it would have on detection

by ShuBob 26.09.12 15:12

aiyoyo wrote:
Spaniel wrote:Snip

Hey Spaniel, maybe it's moot point now that SB's given a chance to interact again.

Nevertheless I feel it's only right to respond to your above post by saying I not in same time zone and by the time I looked 6 pages had gone past and all the hulabaloo history.

I was trying to make a point I'd expressed previously ie that everything has to be taken into the right context.
That regardless of what motivates SB, the point is, he's another person just like us who's on a quest for the truth because he didnt buy mccanns' story. Except he's proactive spending time, and money (importantly of his own, which is ten thousand times better than the mccanns ever did for their own daughter), as well as lobbying the authorities to take his work seriously, Those are facts we cant ignore irrespective of our view of his method and theory.

I hear you Aiyoyo but we've been here before. Marcos Aragao Correia was apparently using his own money and spending his own time searching the Arade dam with the McCanns publicly dismissing him because "they believe Maddie hasn't come to any harm". IIRC, he also wanted the authorities to search the dam but when no one took him seriously, he went about it himself. He also didn't come across as a nutter in those days. It was only later we found out they (McCanns and Aragao) were linked all along.

It may not be the same with SB but I personally am not holding my breath. I'll watch from afar how this pans out.

by aiyoyo 26.09.12 17:29

ShuBob wrote:
aiyoyo wrote:
Spaniel wrote:Snip

Hey Spaniel, maybe it's moot point now that SB's given a chance to interact again.

Nevertheless I feel it's only right to respond to your above post by saying I not in same time zone and by the time I looked 6 pages had gone past and all the hulabaloo history.

I was trying to make a point I'd expressed previously ie that everything has to be taken into the right context.
That regardless of what motivates SB, the point is, he's another person just like us who's on a quest for the truth because he didnt buy mccanns' story. Except he's proactive spending time, and money (importantly of his own, which is ten thousand times better than the mccanns ever did for their own daughter), as well as lobbying the authorities to take his work seriously, Those are facts we cant ignore irrespective of our view of his method and theory.

I hear you Aiyoyo but we've been here before. Marcos Aragao Correia was apparently using his own money and spending his own time searching the Arade dam with the McCanns publicly dismissing him because "they believe Maddie hasn't come to any harm". IIRC, he also wanted the authorities to search the dam but when no one took him seriously, he went about it himself. He also didn't come across as a nutter in those days. It was only later we found out they (McCanns and Aragao) were linked all along.

It may not be the same with SB but I personally am not holding my breath. I'll watch from afar how this pans out.

I hear you too Shubob, and I suspect you may be well right too.
I think you got it wrong that Mad Marc used his own money. IIRC, M3 financed him, and by extension that means the mccanns financed him to dredge the lake. Although they didn't openly support his work, more importantly they didn't dispute it, nor dismiss it in the same manner they dismissed SB.

Maybe SB is in it for glory, nothing to do with mccanns.
If he was on their payroll I cant see them using Murat's garden as their prop for obvious reason. But you never know.

His theory is full of holes, or as TB said just a load of drivel, because he cant explain or never has explained how he arrived at the theory, let alone how he got the precise timing. The burial content is secondary to what made him focus on Murat's garden in the first place. I am interested to know how come he was so certain there would be something there in Murat's garden to make it worth his while that he went through the hazzle of hiring and importing a GPR and then just trespassed the place to prove it (or disprove it).
Was he pre-informed, did he have intelligence from somewhere, someone, or just pure coincidence? Where else has he used the GPR on? If nowhere else, why specifically Murat is the pertinent question.

Sure, the burial may just be pile of unsettled rubble and earth from tramac construction work but one would have thought he used the correct type of GPR suitable for his purpose of detecting graves and not just one that detect any old rubbish, otherwise he's making a fool of himself.

Not all businessmen are literate, in fact most entrepreneurs are not academic.
They happen to have natural acute business sense and skills that's why they are *business* men.
That said, they cant have less than shoe size IQs either if they are to survive in their business.
So something does not add up. Either SB's intelligent (not the same as academic, good speller etc) or he's not.
Is there such a thing as a successful but gormless and brainless businessman? Erm....I'm not sure that goes hand in hand.

by Nelly6969 26.09.12 17:35

Gordon Brown?

by ShuBob 26.09.12 18:06

Aiyoyo wrote:

"I think you got it wrong that Mad Marc used his own money. IIRC, M3
financed him, and by extension that means the mccanns financed him to
dredge the lake. Although they didn't openly support his work, more
importantly they didn't dispute it, nor dismiss it in the same manner
they dismissed SB."

No I didn't get it wrong. We were initially led to believe Aragao was funding the search out of his own pocket. It was only later it transpired that he was paid by M3 directly linking him to the McCanns. IIRC, the McCanns also showed little or no interest in the dam search.

That aside, like you, I'll like to know where SB got his information from because like Aragao, they are quite specific. I'd also like to know more about the alleged dispute with his SA (ex?) business partners. Saying he cannot answer questions for legal reasons doesn't wash with me.

by Guest 26.09.12 19:16

ShuBob wrote:
aiyoyo wrote:
Spaniel wrote:Snip

Hey Spaniel, maybe it's moot point now that SB's given a chance to interact again.

Nevertheless I feel it's only right to respond to your above post by saying I not in same time zone and by the time I looked 6 pages had gone past and all the hulabaloo history.

I was trying to make a point I'd expressed previously ie that everything has to be taken into the right context.
That regardless of what motivates SB, the point is, he's another person just like us who's on a quest for the truth because he didnt buy mccanns' story. Except he's proactive spending time, and money (importantly of his own, which is ten thousand times better than the mccanns ever did for their own daughter), as well as lobbying the authorities to take his work seriously, Those are facts we cant ignore irrespective of our view of his method and theory.

I hear you Aiyoyo but we've been here before. Marcos Aragao Correia was apparently using his own money and spending his own time searching the Arade dam with the McCanns publicly dismissing him because "they believe Maddie hasn't come to any harm". IIRC, he also wanted the authorities to search the dam but when no one took him seriously, he went about it himself. He also didn't come across as a nutter in those days. It was only later we found out they (McCanns and Aragao) were linked all along.

It may not be the same with SB but I personally am not holding my breath. I'll watch from afar how this pans out.

Hello Shubob,

Wasn't this samshady creature Daniel Krugel -him of the miracle pinpointing with a hair from Maddie where she ought to be looked for within a streetsbreadt- also from the good republic of Sout Africa?

Is there something in that country encouraging a special kind of enterpreneurs?

Would that have something to do with the present state of the countries economy, or with the circumstances so vividly ondergone and described by our friend Aquila?

As in: catch as catch can?

by ShuBob 26.09.12 19:20

Well remembered, Portia. I had forgotten about Krugel Shocked

IIRC, the McCanns also publicly distanced themselves from him at the beginning. It was only later we found out that it was THEY who had brought him in in the first place! Do we see a pattern emerging here?

by Guest 26.09.12 19:30

ShuBob wrote:Well remembered, Portia. I had forgotten about Krugel

IIRC, the McCanns also publicly distanced themselves from him at the beginning. It was only later we found out that it was THEY who had brought him in in the first place! Do we see a pattern emerging here?

Sorry, off topic.

But how were the able to give him a hair, where did that hair come from; and why did GM have to go to Rothley -passing Waterloo station, Foreign Affairs and an ATM on the way- in order to retrieve a blanket or something with Maddies DNA on it?

Why not use a/this/any hair of Maddie?

by T4two 26.09.12 19:45

Portia wrote:
ShuBob wrote:Well remembered, Portia. I had forgotten about Krugel

IIRC, the McCanns also publicly distanced themselves from him at the beginning. It was only later we found out that it was THEY who had brought him in in the first place! Do we see a pattern emerging here?

Sorry, off topic.

But how were the able to give him a hair, where did that hair come from; and why did GM have to go to Rothley -passing Waterloo station, Foreign Affairs and an ATM on the way- in order to retrieve a blanket or something with Maddies DNA on it?

Why not use a/this/any hair of Maddie?

Not an expert but I suppose a reference sample was needed in order to identify Madeleine's DNA from anything found in the apartment? There could have been lots of hairs from different sources in the apartment, so how could they be certain which was Madeleine's? I also recall reading that Madeleine supposedly had no toothbrush or hairbrush of her own.

by ShuBob 26.09.12 19:46

Good questions, Portia, but O/T. I don't want my sensitive knuckles wrapped Investigator ensures that Maddie's body in the backyard of Murat - Page 24 110921

Investigator ensures that Maddie's body in the backyard of Murat - Page 24 110921

by sweetex 26.09.12 20:16

Although I hardly get time to post anymore, I try and keep up with the post and latest news.

Firstly, with the recent posts of Mr Birch, I'm quite embarrassed to be South African. I can understand his frustration, but there is still no need to start calling people on this forum names.

Personally I think Mr Birch regrets the fact that he has spent so much money on a case that has nothing to do with him. I don't for one moment think he works for the McCann's but he was probably looking for his few minutes of fame. Even if the digging took place, and no body was found, it would mean some sort of publicity to him. And now nothing is happening. He threw money down the drain so to speak, no one is listening, his hands are tied, that is probably where the frustration comes in. I honestly hope he can answer some questions when he comes back.

Secondly I know Mr Krugel is also from South Africa, lol but he is totally a different story. Whether Mr Birch is true or not, it is a bit unfair to draw a comparison between the two. The equipment Mr Krugel used is a load of bollocks, and it was proved more than once.

by roy rovers 27.09.12 0:28

It's always possible that the precise location of MM's body is ALL that SB knows - from a tip off. He has no theory as to how it got there.

by aiyoyo 27.09.12 1:58

T4two wrote:
Portia wrote:
ShuBob wrote:Well remembered, Portia. I had forgotten about Krugel

IIRC, the McCanns also publicly distanced themselves from him at the beginning. It was only later we found out that it was THEY who had brought him in in the first place! Do we see a pattern emerging here?

Sorry, off topic.

But how were the able to give him a hair, where did that hair come from; and why did GM have to go to Rothley -passing Waterloo station, Foreign Affairs and an ATM on the way- in order to retrieve a blanket or something with Maddies DNA on it?

Why not use a/this/any hair of Maddie?

Not an expert but I suppose a reference sample was needed in order to identify Madeleine's DNA from anything found in the apartment? There could have been lots of hairs from different sources in the apartment, so how could they be certain which was Madeleine's? I also recall reading that Madeleine supposedly had no toothbrush or hairbrush of her own.

It's so bizzare that they were able to distinguish a strand of Maddie's hair for Daniel Kruger, yet went back all the way to UK to get a sample for PJ.

by Stephen Birch 10.10.12 21:15

To The Forum

I will be posting an article in the next couple of days that will be published across Portugal.

The article will be about me accusing Portugal's Prime Minister of being complicit in covering up the death of MADELEINE MC CANN, and will put the Prime Minister to terms to excavate the Murat rear gravel driveway, in front of the entire Portuguese nation.

Regards

Stephen D. Birch

by Guest 10.10.12 21:22

I don't think that any Portuguese politician was involved myself!

by Guest 10.10.12 21:30

Stephen Birch wrote:To The Forum

I will be posting an article in the next couple of days that will be published across Portugal.

The article will be about me accusing Portugal's Prime Minister of being complicit in covering up the death of MADELEINE MC CANN, and will put the Prime Minister to terms to excavate the Murat rear gravel driveway, in front of the entire Portuguese nation.

Regards

Stephen D. Birch

***
Which Prime Minister? The former or the present?

by Guest 10.10.12 21:35

Jean wrote:I don't think that any Portuguese politician was involved myself!

I'm not saying they were involved in a cover up but Brown and Socrates did have a chat about the case...........

tigger wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-488399/Madeleine-Brown-quizzes-Portuguese-PM-bungled-police-inquiry.html#ixzz22Sb4eeH3
17/10/07
quote:
Gordon Brown has raised concerns about the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance with his Portuguese counterpart.

Mr Brown discussed the police inquiry with the premier Jose Socrates during private talks in Lisbon, where the pair are attending the EU summit.
Mr Brown said he wanted to be assured "that the police authorities are taking the actions that are necessary and there's proper cooperation between the British and Portuguese police".

[....] Gordon Brown met Portuguese premier Jose Socrates in private yesterday in Lisbon to discuss Madeleine McCann [....]
The pair previously discussed the case in July, when Mr Socrates assured Mr Brown "everything possible" was being done to find the missing four-year-old.
Mr Brown's involvement in the case has sparked resentment in Portugal in the past.
unquote

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t5389-gordon-brown

Part quote of tiggers.

by Liz Eagles 10.10.12 21:48

Stephen Birch wrote:To The Forum

I will be posting an article in the next couple of days that will be published across Portugal.

The article will be about me accusing Portugal's Prime Minister of being complicit in covering up the death of MADELEINE MC CANN, and will put the Prime Minister to terms to excavate the Murat rear gravel driveway, in front of the entire Portuguese nation.

Regards

Stephen D. Birch

Well at least the spelling has improved. It's amazing how different the spelling is at times. The 1 million rand (around 80,000 pounds) has helped to write a letter and supply on this forum the anticipation of an article across Portugal. I am somehow not holding my breath. Just ignore him. BS. I will take my punishment from the mods for this comment.

by Stephen Birch 10.10.12 22:00

Aquila take a hike,when you can undertake a billion rand development, then you can challenge my spelling.

Jean I have presented the current Prime Minister with my findings. He is the gentleman who must authorize the dig. Given my findings presented to Portugal's Attorney General, and that of the US, he has no option but to authorize the dig. If he refuses, I,ll go for his throat - and he knows I am coming.

by ShuBob 10.10.12 22:03

How about publishing articles in the UK via Facebook if no newspaper is willing to publish, accusing the British authorities of covering up the death of Maddie? The idea will be to target the review team. You can then furnish them with your information from a "British cop" that Murat's yard wasn't searched by Eddie the cadaver dog Investigator ensures that Maddie's body in the backyard of Murat - Page 24 234628