Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs

by Daisy 30.11.11 17:00

Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:

If you're talking about who I think you're talking about might it just be freemasonry?

"You must conceal all crimes of your brother Masons...and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother Mason be always sure to shield him...It may be perjury to do this, it is true, but you're keeping your obligations." page 183 of the masonry handbook

Agreed. You cannot rule out masonic influence; this case is riddled with it - like much of life/society.

by Ollie 30.11.11 17:06

joyce1938 wrote:stella, maybe rotting meat was enough to make dogs smell and sniff,i cant think it would elert to any other smell,so its anyones guess. I also cant understand that eddie and keeler didnt have chance to go there ,are we certain of that as fact? joyce1938

Sorry joyce1938 but I disagree that they wouldn't alert to any other smell. How many times have we heard a body was found by dog walkers. Most likely found by the dog, they smelt cadaver. I believe the GNR dogs smelt cadaver in apartment 5J, it was said they were reacting to a smell which was by the fridge, not the actual fridge.

by joyce1938 30.11.11 17:15

stella i didnt realize that dogs picked up cadava scent with out training,ofcourse hadnt thought about that situation,i just hadnt realized that can be so , what is point of a trained dog in cadava ,if not needed,?i had never given a thought that any dog may do the same.joyce1938

by Ollie 30.11.11 17:24

joyce1938 wrote:stella i didnt realize that dogs picked up cadava scent with out training,ofcourse hadnt thought about that situation,i just hadnt realized that can be so , what is point of a trained dog in cadava ,if not needed,?i had never given a thought that any dog may do the same.joyce1938

Sorry joyce1938, I didn't mean they alert in the same way a dog trained for this purpose would. They wouldn't, I'm a dog owner and know how my dog behaves when he smells a dead bird etc. He continuously smells the dead bird or mouse until pulled away. I think it may be because it is such a distinctive smell and one he doesn't smell that often, maybe they know it is the smell of death, I don't know.

by **Jill Havern** 30.11.11 17:27

joyce1938 wrote:stella i didnt realize that dogs picked up cadava scent with out training,ofcourse hadnt thought about that situation,i just hadnt realized that can be so , what is point of a trained dog in cadava ,if not needed,?i had never given a thought that any dog may do the same.joyce1938

I assume that in the case of the dog walkers the dog has an actual body to sniff whereas a cadaver dog only has the remaining scent if the body has already been removed. I assume they are trained so their noses are much more sensitive, they need to be able to report that a body had been there. Wasn't it said in the case of Baby Lisa that a cadaver dog can detect scent around 28 years later?

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by Ollie 30.11.11 18:28

Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:
joyce1938 wrote:stella i didnt realize that dogs picked up cadava scent with out training,ofcourse hadnt thought about that situation,i just hadnt realized that can be so , what is point of a trained dog in cadava ,if not needed,?i had never given a thought that any dog may do the same.joyce1938

I assume that in the case of the dog walkers the dog has an actual body to sniff whereas a cadaver dog only has the remaining scent if the body has already been removed. I assume they are trained so their noses are much more sensitive, they need to be able to report that a body had been there. Wasn't it said in the case of Baby Lisa that a cadaver dog can detect scent around 28 years later?

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Get 'em Goncalo you are right that they had an actual body to sniff, but dogs will pick up on smells where something had been. I think that is what happened in 5J, that's why the rotting meat was in the fridge, to distract...rotting meat in the boot of the hire car, to distract. I think the McCanns for the first time may have been telling the truth about the rotting meat in the boot, but it was put there for a reason.

by littlepixie 30.11.11 20:14

Rotting pig or cow meat which is purely muscle meat & fat, does not smell anything like a whole rotting human to a dog. The EVRD has been trained not to alert to foodstuffs so although, if hungry, the dog may stop and sniff rotting animal flesh, it would not alert to it.

by russiandoll 30.11.11 22:31

not really relevant but just to demonstrate the sensitivity of an untrained dog which will alert to anything with a strong odour unlike the trained ones who are trained to only alert to blood, body fluids, cadaverine...
my 2 dogs have alerted me twice to dead cats on a local field. the most recent was 9 months ago, and until a couple of months back one dog was constantly circling and sniffing in the spot where he had started barking furiously reacting to this scent.

by joyce1938 30.11.11 22:47

thanks everyone for interest in what we are considering. Maybe the difference we are considering is, if a body is available to sniff at ,that is one thing ,if removed then to detect cadava is another thing altogether?So do we think that someones body was in apartment,or cadavaand no body? joyce1938

by jd 01.12.11 0:04

joyce1938...may I ask if you are really a 15 year old boy?

In all your posts, you do not come across as a 72 year old woman with a life of experience whatsoever

by Guest 01.12.11 8:58

Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:
Stella wrote:
Stella wrote:Apartment 5J of the same block was also checked as the dog had been more agitated than before as if there were a very strong strange odour there. It was stated that this apartment had been unoccupied for some time.

If that is true, the smell that would have come from that apartment would have been very apparent when the cleaner visited 5i, just next door.

Can I also just say here that the cleaner may not necessarily have noticed any smell.

When I was in the police many years ago I attended a death in a block of flats - an old man had hanged himself behind his front door. When we looked through the letterbox the stench hit us...yet his postman hadn't reported anything.

Goncalo Amaral has already told us that the body had not started to decompose, as he could tell it had been kept frozen for more than 3 weeks.

The GNR tracker dogs are not trained to pick up the smell of cadaverine. If they reacted to 5J, this means they were picking up the scent of whatever they had been given and connecting it to that apartment 5J. The big question is, had they really been given something to do with Madeleine in the first place?

by joyce1938 01.12.11 9:53

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] jd,sorry tohear you think i am 15 yrs old by my writing this week,sometimes i find it hard to express in few words exactly how i have read another post,there really is no need to be a bit rude ,none of us know it all anywhere ,we are trying to speculate most of the time.lets be friends eh?joyce1938

by jd 01.12.11 10:00

joyce1938 wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] jd,sorry tohear you think i am 15 yrs old by my writing this week,sometimes i find it hard to express in few words exactly how i have read another post,there really is no need to be a bit rude ,none of us know it all anywhere ,we are trying to speculate most of the time.lets be friends eh?joyce1938

I wasn't meaning to be rude though I accept it came across as being. I will keep my thoughts to myself

by Guest 01.12.11 10:59

A summary of the points so far concerning apartment 5J

The owner of the apartment is not listed.

The cleaner stated it was empty when Madeleine disappeared.

The PJ stated it had been unoccupied for some time.

Two GNR Tracker Dogs, Rex and Zarus on the 4^th May, after being given a blanket, showed interest at the front door.

Two GNR Tracker Dogs, Rex and Zarus on the 7^th May, after being given an item of Madeleine’s clothing, became more agitated than before at the front door.

Interest was shown close to the fridge, which was open and contained rotting meat and vegetables.

by Ollie 01.12.11 11:13

Stella, I agree with what you said that madeleines body was frozen, but I believe that Madeleine died before the 3rd May, possibly on the 1st May. I think her body was put into 5J then moved by the 3rd May somewhere else, the 'abduction' could then take place. To me it makes sense to put her there first then things could be put into place to move her somewhere safe and then to her final resting place, somewhere in Portugal.

BTW still looking for the bit where Gerry was seen in the hire car when Eddie and Keela were doing the search at the apartments. Will probably take forever as I go from recent posts to historic threads on this site and there is so much information on here. But I am persistent and will find it!

by jd 01.12.11 11:26

What is also interesting is that apartment 5J is not on the list of apartments to clean anyway. So this apartment must be privately owned and a no go area

if Maddie (or lookalike) did die on May 1st then whoever owned it would have known someone from the Tapas 9 or connected to them, to allow them to store a body of a child!! Nobody would do this if they didn't know the people involved

by Ollie 01.12.11 11:41

jd wrote:What is also interesting is that apartment 5J is not on the list of apartments to clean anyway. So this apartment must be privately owned and a no go area

if Maddie (or lookalike) did die on May 1st then whoever owned it would have known someone from the Tapas 9 or connected to them, to allow them to store a body of a child!! Nobody would do this if they didn't know the people involved

I agree it would have been someone they knew, the same if Madeleines body had been kept in a freezer, someone they knew.

BTW I won't be insulted if you say I post like an 18 year old!

by Guest 01.12.11 11:46

Or if as Stella has said the apartment had been unoccupied for some time, it was used because there was little risk of the owners appearing. But that of course depends on whether keys were in the keeping of the Ocean Club.

by Guest 01.12.11 12:27

From the dog search statements, I think Administration had the keys to 5J:

"On 10th May at about 20h10, upon the request of the PJ, searches were carried out in all of the apartments belonging to blocks 4 and 5 of the OC, two tracker dogs and two search and rescue dogs being used for this operation, adopting the same methods as those used on 7th May, just that this time the apartments were all open and searched one by one, being accompanied by a representative from the resort, who had the keys to all the apartments (apart from those not under her administration) and also with the objective of helping with the searches. The collaboration of all the guests occupying the apartments at that time was requested for this purpose and those apartments that were found to be empty were opened by the administrator".

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It would seem to me that 5J was ony entered on the 7th, or more likely the 10th May, for the first time. If so, why did it take that long to gain entry? Possible delay tactics could have been, the owner could not be contacted, or the owner refused to give permission maybe?

Would Administration even know if the owner, or someone they knew, used that apartment for a few days? As I cannot imagine the owner having to report to them as and when they want to use their own apartment.

As far as I can tell, the apartment directly above 5J is 5N. The one directly below it is 5F, both of those apartments are not cleaned or presumably rented out, which probably means they are owner occupied, or sitting empty just like 5J.

by Guest 01.12.11 12:53

alison wrote:Or if as Stella has said the apartment had been unoccupied for some time, it was used because there was little risk of the owners appearing. But that of course depends on whether keys were in the keeping of the Ocean Club.

I agree Alison, it could be that someone who knows someone, was able to 'borrow' the keys to 5J and return them in under 15 minutes, without anyone even knowing. Once inside, perhaps they took it in turns to stay there, to let the other person in, without needing the key again.

I don't think this was where Madeleine was stored. I'm tending to think at this stage, this could possibly be where she died on the first night.

by jd 01.12.11 12:54

[quote="Ollie"]

jd wrote:
BTW I won't be insulted if you say I post like an 18 year old!

You sound more like a 72 year old than a 72 year old lol!

(joke)

by jd 01.12.11 12:56

The meat smelling in this apartment and the hire car is very odd in the same case & connected to the same set of people

by Guest 01.12.11 13:19

That is very true jd. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I think we could also do with a new smilie, that we could use when we are joking. Perhaps a jester !! daft1

I know I could make use of it often. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by jd 01.12.11 13:23

the mccanns are a joke...perhaps one of them dressed as jesters with their faces painted like clowns!

by Invinoveritas 01.12.11 13:46

Ollie wrote:Stella, I agree with what you said that madeleines body was frozen, but I believe that Madeleine died before the 3rd May, possibly on the 1st May. I think her body was put into 5J then moved by the 3rd May somewhere else, the 'abduction' could then take place. To me it makes sense to put her there first then things could be put into place to move her somewhere safe and then to her final resting place, somewhere in Portugal.

BTW still looking for the bit where Gerry was seen in the hire car when Eddie and Keela were doing the search at the apartments. Will probably take forever as I go from recent posts to historic threads on this site and there is so much information on here. But I am persistent and will find it!

Ollie, is this what you're searching for?

quote: - On that night, before 10pm, the investigators see Gerald McCann near the apartment, driving alone in the rented Renault with the face of one "who has few friends." unquote

use this link and scroll down to the 31st of July

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by Ollie 01.12.11 13:48

[quote="jd"]

Ollie wrote:
jd wrote:
BTW I won't be insulted if you say I post like an 18 year old!

You sound more like a 72 year old than a 72 year old (joke)

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by Badboys 01.12.11 18:26

I should point out that apartment 5j is i believe rented out by byron properties as are some of the other properties.

police tried to trace the person in the apartment,but couldn't trace him because as he paid by cash,no record was kept.

by Ollie 01.12.11 18:53

Invinoveritas wrote:
Ollie wrote:Stella, I agree with what you said that madeleines body was frozen, but I believe that Madeleine died before the 3rd May, possibly on the 1st May. I think her body was put into 5J then moved by the 3rd May somewhere else, the 'abduction' could then take place. To me it makes sense to put her there first then things could be put into place to move her somewhere safe and then to her final resting place, somewhere in Portugal.

BTW still looking for the bit where Gerry was seen in the hire car when Eddie and Keela were doing the search at the apartments. Will probably take forever as I go from recent posts to historic threads on this site and there is so much information on here. But I am persistent and will find it!

Ollie, is this what you're searching for?

quote: - On that night, before 10pm, the investigators see Gerald McCann near the apartment, driving alone in the rented Renault with the face of one "who has few friends." unquote

use this link and scroll down to the 31st of July

[url=http://www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html

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Thank you Ivinoveritas!! You have saved me a lot of searching. Note to myself: if I see something of particular interest to me on this forum make a note of it!

by Invinoveritas 01.12.11 19:38

From Ollie: Thank you Ivinoveritas!! You have saved me a lot of searching. Note to myself: if I see something of particular interest to me on this forum make a note of it!

Glad to have been of help,

by Gillyspot 01.12.11 19:57

Badboys wrote:I should point out that apartment 5j is i believe rented out by byron properties as are some of the other properties.

police tried to trace the person in the apartment,but couldn't trace him because as he paid by cash,no record was kept.

Where have you found that its not in the PJ files (or if it is I can't find it) lol?