Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
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Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by Tony Bennett 18.11.11 22:03
'Q' is someone who kindly presented a paper at an MF regional conference.
We have his permission to put forward this paper of his below for discussion:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
DOGS DETECTION OF CADAVERINE
I’d like to dispel a few myths about EVRD’s (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dogs) .
In trials the shortest post-mortem interval where a correct response was received is one hour and 25 minutes. These results were from tests done using cloth which had been placed on a body for specific times which trained cadaver dogs then located.
There has to be a difference in using 2inch pieces of cloth that have been exposed to a body compared to that of a complete human body still decomposing and producing cadaverine or cadaver residue left behind as a result of a body contaminating an area.
At the time of biological death , the individual scent emitted by someone undergoes a transformation . This change is not immediately detectable by humans, but it is known to affect the composition of the odour detected by the dog and the dogs resulting behaviour.
In order to understand the type of scent available to the dog it is important to learn about the stages of decomposition.
The decomposition process commences immediately after biological death occurs and proceeds through five stages before the body is completely skeletonized.
The first stage of decomposition is called the ‘Fresh’ stage . There is little or no exterior change to the body, however, it is decomposing inside due to internal bacteria. No odour is detectable by humans at this stage; however dogs may show reaction or approach the body/scent as if it were still alive and they can detect the scent at this stage at some distance - ( this means the scent is leaving the body and residue is being omitted ).
Dogs are trained to react to the scent picture through the complete spectrum .
Decomposition begins within 5-15 minutes 5-15 approx., depending on environmental conditions, of someone dying (clinical death) when protein synthesis in the body stops. With nothing to maintain the protective lining in the gut, digestive enzymes eat the body from the inside out creating amino acids. While this is happening bacteria feed on those amino acids. This process produces chemicals such as ammonia and ptomaines (one commonly known as cavaderine) and that is one of the scents the EVRD is trained to detect.
If residue from a decomposing body was located in that spot and one of the most experienced and well paid dogs in the entire world signalled to blood in the exact same spot, then there had to have been cadaver residue & blood there .
According to Martin Grime’s, cross contamination is immediate; once someone dies and their body begins decomposing it is possible that the objects, area and people that make contact with that body can become contaminated with cadaver residue: these areas are hence ‘cross contaminated’ – the body being the original source .
They were not brought in by the British & Portuguese authorities to look for an abducted child, they were looking for evidence of accidental or non-accidental death because that is what they suspected happened given the circumstances and other evidence which pointed to that scenario.
Tests have proven that residual scent from a cadaver will last in a building with minimum environmental influences or human disturbance for at least 1 Year, even after the objects where the scent source originated had been removed .
Re the GNR Tracker Dogs & Search & Rescue Dogs
Dogs use their natural ability and hunting instinct to find scents and their ability to do this is nearly impossible to defeat. They can locate a scent no matter how much it is intermingled with other odours and dependant on environmental conditions, can detect that scent when it is days old.
A phenomenona that has been noted by many trainers/dog handlers is that some dogs will follow a trail, often many days old, but fail to close in on a body if the subjects is deceased. They may register the scent change - but whether from fear, difference in odour, or some other reason. may not approach the body.
In reality, the dog is showing an aversion to cadaver scent . The dog may show aversion by raising its hackles, circling, or other behaviour, that indicates that it may not want to approach an area appears to be confused..
This could I think certainly apply to trained tracker dogs not experienced or trained in finding dead bodies, such as the dogs deployed by both the GNR and the two Search & Rescue Dogs (S & R dogs specifically trained to find humans) brought in on the 4th May. This could be an explanation as to why they appeared to be distracted at the door of Apt.5J when following the same scent trail.
This was put down to waste foodstuffs, something I doubt very much, given the S&R Dogs are trained scent discrimination dogs. The search and rescue dogs and teams, as stated, are trained to find human scent and have to regularly meet certain standards and tests done to prove their competence.
I know there has been a lot of discussion suggesting Apt 5J may have been used as a location to store the body and we know the dogs stopped and were distracted there before continuing there tracking to the car park area .
At least 3 or 4 dogs all independently followed almost exactly the same scent trail . The Target Scent used by the Search & Rescue dogs was a blanket belonging to M. , I'm not certain what the GNR dogs used without checking but I think a towel.
It would have to be sheer fluke for all the dogs to independently follow the same trail at different times, the odds ratio of this happening given the variants are too great and the fact different dogs followed the same trail at different times reinforces the idea that this scent trail had to be the strongest / most recent.
This leads me to think that Apt 5J may have been used as a temporary place to hide the body and that the dogs were distracted / confused by the scent of cadaverine which would have ' built up ' inside that apartment and not foodstuffs as suggested , until they picked up the original scent trail again leading them to the car park area.
If the body wasn’t put into a freezer there it was only temporary so would not have frozen properly , possibly only cold storage until it was moved shortly after. My reasoning behind this is the scent trail leading from Apt 5J to the car park , I doubt very much there would have been any scent trail to follow from a frozen body.
We have his permission to put forward this paper of his below for discussion:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
DOGS DETECTION OF CADAVERINE
I’d like to dispel a few myths about EVRD’s (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dogs) .
In trials the shortest post-mortem interval where a correct response was received is one hour and 25 minutes. These results were from tests done using cloth which had been placed on a body for specific times which trained cadaver dogs then located.
There has to be a difference in using 2inch pieces of cloth that have been exposed to a body compared to that of a complete human body still decomposing and producing cadaverine or cadaver residue left behind as a result of a body contaminating an area.
At the time of biological death , the individual scent emitted by someone undergoes a transformation . This change is not immediately detectable by humans, but it is known to affect the composition of the odour detected by the dog and the dogs resulting behaviour.
In order to understand the type of scent available to the dog it is important to learn about the stages of decomposition.
The decomposition process commences immediately after biological death occurs and proceeds through five stages before the body is completely skeletonized.
The first stage of decomposition is called the ‘Fresh’ stage . There is little or no exterior change to the body, however, it is decomposing inside due to internal bacteria. No odour is detectable by humans at this stage; however dogs may show reaction or approach the body/scent as if it were still alive and they can detect the scent at this stage at some distance - ( this means the scent is leaving the body and residue is being omitted ).
Dogs are trained to react to the scent picture through the complete spectrum .
Decomposition begins within 5-15 minutes 5-15 approx., depending on environmental conditions, of someone dying (clinical death) when protein synthesis in the body stops. With nothing to maintain the protective lining in the gut, digestive enzymes eat the body from the inside out creating amino acids. While this is happening bacteria feed on those amino acids. This process produces chemicals such as ammonia and ptomaines (one commonly known as cavaderine) and that is one of the scents the EVRD is trained to detect.
If residue from a decomposing body was located in that spot and one of the most experienced and well paid dogs in the entire world signalled to blood in the exact same spot, then there had to have been cadaver residue & blood there .
According to Martin Grime’s, cross contamination is immediate; once someone dies and their body begins decomposing it is possible that the objects, area and people that make contact with that body can become contaminated with cadaver residue: these areas are hence ‘cross contaminated’ – the body being the original source .
They were not brought in by the British & Portuguese authorities to look for an abducted child, they were looking for evidence of accidental or non-accidental death because that is what they suspected happened given the circumstances and other evidence which pointed to that scenario.
Tests have proven that residual scent from a cadaver will last in a building with minimum environmental influences or human disturbance for at least 1 Year, even after the objects where the scent source originated had been removed .
Re the GNR Tracker Dogs & Search & Rescue Dogs
Dogs use their natural ability and hunting instinct to find scents and their ability to do this is nearly impossible to defeat. They can locate a scent no matter how much it is intermingled with other odours and dependant on environmental conditions, can detect that scent when it is days old.
A phenomenona that has been noted by many trainers/dog handlers is that some dogs will follow a trail, often many days old, but fail to close in on a body if the subjects is deceased. They may register the scent change - but whether from fear, difference in odour, or some other reason. may not approach the body.
In reality, the dog is showing an aversion to cadaver scent . The dog may show aversion by raising its hackles, circling, or other behaviour, that indicates that it may not want to approach an area appears to be confused..
This could I think certainly apply to trained tracker dogs not experienced or trained in finding dead bodies, such as the dogs deployed by both the GNR and the two Search & Rescue Dogs (S & R dogs specifically trained to find humans) brought in on the 4th May. This could be an explanation as to why they appeared to be distracted at the door of Apt.5J when following the same scent trail.
This was put down to waste foodstuffs, something I doubt very much, given the S&R Dogs are trained scent discrimination dogs. The search and rescue dogs and teams, as stated, are trained to find human scent and have to regularly meet certain standards and tests done to prove their competence.
I know there has been a lot of discussion suggesting Apt 5J may have been used as a location to store the body and we know the dogs stopped and were distracted there before continuing there tracking to the car park area .
At least 3 or 4 dogs all independently followed almost exactly the same scent trail . The Target Scent used by the Search & Rescue dogs was a blanket belonging to M. , I'm not certain what the GNR dogs used without checking but I think a towel.
It would have to be sheer fluke for all the dogs to independently follow the same trail at different times, the odds ratio of this happening given the variants are too great and the fact different dogs followed the same trail at different times reinforces the idea that this scent trail had to be the strongest / most recent.
This leads me to think that Apt 5J may have been used as a temporary place to hide the body and that the dogs were distracted / confused by the scent of cadaverine which would have ' built up ' inside that apartment and not foodstuffs as suggested , until they picked up the original scent trail again leading them to the car park area.
If the body wasn’t put into a freezer there it was only temporary so would not have frozen properly , possibly only cold storage until it was moved shortly after. My reasoning behind this is the scent trail leading from Apt 5J to the car park , I doubt very much there would have been any scent trail to follow from a frozen body.
Tony Bennett- Researcher
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Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by Guest 19.11.11 8:42
Good post Q. 
What we have to remember is the direction of the natural draught that ran through apartment 5a, which Eddie got very excited about, long before being tasked to search that apartment, so much so, he released himself from hold and ran over excitedly into the apartment on his own. I can only think the natural draught that runs through all of those apartments, was enough to escape beneath the gap, located underneath each front door, which the GNR dogs must have detected at 5j.
The cleaner for block 5 confirmed in her statement that she does not clean 5j. Which might signify it is owner occupied, just as Mrs Fenn apartment was, a few doors along in 5g.
The Payne's were staying in 5h, 5i was empty and the GNR dogs show interest in 5j.
What we have to remember is the direction of the natural draught that ran through apartment 5a, which Eddie got very excited about, long before being tasked to search that apartment, so much so, he released himself from hold and ran over excitedly into the apartment on his own. I can only think the natural draught that runs through all of those apartments, was enough to escape beneath the gap, located underneath each front door, which the GNR dogs must have detected at 5j.
The cleaner for block 5 confirmed in her statement that she does not clean 5j. Which might signify it is owner occupied, just as Mrs Fenn apartment was, a few doors along in 5g.
The Payne's were staying in 5h, 5i was empty and the GNR dogs show interest in 5j.
Guest- Guest
Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by HFS 25.11.11 15:59
This
could I think certainly apply to trained tracker dogs not experienced
or trained in finding dead bodies, such as the dogs deployed by both the
GNR and the two Search & Rescue Dogs (S & R dogs specifically
trained to find humans) brought in on the 4th May. This could
be an explanation as to why they appeared to be distracted at the door
of Apt.5J when following the same scent trail.
Now that's interesting, I've never read this before.
So both the GNR and the S&R dogs lead to that apartment?
Why wasn't it searched by Eddie and Keela. Or was it?
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Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by Guest 25.11.11 16:27
The simple answer to that one HFS, is no. Eddie was not tasked with searching that apartment. I can only think there must have been restrictions placed on those searches for obvious reasons.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
Inspection of the apartments.
Date: July 31st 2007 - 8pm. Report:
Participants:
PJ: Tavares A. & Ricardo P. Inspectors
UK: Mark Harrison, Martin Grime (UK Forensic Canine P SM Expert),
Eddie & Keela (English Springers)
Silvia B. Manager of the Ocean Club complex.
On that date, inspections were conducted in the apartments occupied by members of the McCann family as well as the group who were with them at the time of Madeleine McCann's disappearance. It was only on that date that the apartment, identified as that of the parents, was empty allowing further investigation which was authorised by the respective occupants. Thus, at the appointed time, the search with the dogs began, covering the following apartments:
5A:
From 8.30pm to 9.20pm, the dogs go through.
8.20pm: The cadaver dog, "marks," the couple's wardrobe area in the bedroom.
8.22pm: The cadaver dog, "marks" an area behind the sofa in the sitting room near the window overlooking the road.
From 8.47pm to 9.20pm, the blood detecting dog goes through.
8.10 (should it be 9.10?) The dog, "marks" an area of floor behind the sofa in the sitting room, near the window overlooking the road.
5B: 9.24 to 9.27pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.
5D: 9.29 to 9.34pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.
5H : 9.35 to 9.38pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.
4G : 9.42 to 9.45pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.
Garden belonging to apartment 5A (with access via the balcony and the steps):
9.49 to 10pm: The cadaver dog "marks" an area of the garden immediately below the window.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
Inspection of the apartments.
Date: July 31st 2007 - 8pm. Report:
Participants:
PJ: Tavares A. & Ricardo P. Inspectors
UK: Mark Harrison, Martin Grime (UK Forensic Canine P SM Expert),
Eddie & Keela (English Springers)
Silvia B. Manager of the Ocean Club complex.
On that date, inspections were conducted in the apartments occupied by members of the McCann family as well as the group who were with them at the time of Madeleine McCann's disappearance. It was only on that date that the apartment, identified as that of the parents, was empty allowing further investigation which was authorised by the respective occupants. Thus, at the appointed time, the search with the dogs began, covering the following apartments:
5A:
From 8.30pm to 9.20pm, the dogs go through.
8.20pm: The cadaver dog, "marks," the couple's wardrobe area in the bedroom.
8.22pm: The cadaver dog, "marks" an area behind the sofa in the sitting room near the window overlooking the road.
From 8.47pm to 9.20pm, the blood detecting dog goes through.
8.10 (should it be 9.10?) The dog, "marks" an area of floor behind the sofa in the sitting room, near the window overlooking the road.
5B: 9.24 to 9.27pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.
5D: 9.29 to 9.34pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.
5H : 9.35 to 9.38pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.
4G : 9.42 to 9.45pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.
Garden belonging to apartment 5A (with access via the balcony and the steps):
9.49 to 10pm: The cadaver dog "marks" an area of the garden immediately below the window.
Guest- Guest
Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by Guest 25.11.11 16:31
From another report, interestingly I found this;
Outside perimeter of apartments
We've searched the outer perimeter, there is some interest here but it will take some further examination to see what's going on.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Outside perimeter of apartments
We've searched the outer perimeter, there is some interest here but it will take some further examination to see what's going on.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Guest- Guest
Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by Guest 25.11.11 16:36
| Gr. | floor | 1st | floor | 2nd | floor | 3rd | floor | 4th | floor |
| 5A | McCann | 5G | Mrs Fenn | 5K | Moyes | 5P | empty ? | 5R | |
| 5B | Oldfield | 5H | Payne | 5L | empty ? | 5Q | 5S | ||
| 5C | empty ? | 5i | empty ? | 5M | empty ? | ||||
| 5D | Tanner | 5J | ? | 5N | |||||
| 5E | |||||||||
| 5F | |||||||||
| the OC cleaner only cleans these apartments | |||||||||
| the cleaner said was occupied | |||||||||
| we know is privately owned | |||||||||
| presumed to be privately owned | |||||||||
| sniffer dogs Rex and Zarus independently show interest | |||||||||
Guest- Guest
Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by Guest 26.11.11 13:35
5J can be seen in this picture, on the left, just above 5F.
Guest- Guest
Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by HFS 27.11.11 15:14
Stella wrote:
Gr. floor 1st floor 2nd floor 3rd floor 4th floor 5A McCann 5G Mrs Fenn 5K Moyes 5P empty ? 5R 5B Oldfield 5H Payne 5L empty ? 5Q 5S 5C empty ? 5i empty ? 5M empty ? 5D Tanner 5J ? 5N 5E 5F the OC cleaner only cleans these apartments the cleaner said was occupied we know is privately owned presumed to be privately owned sniffer dogs Rex and Zarus independently show interest
This is very interesting. Thank you Stella. :flower:
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Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by Guest 27.11.11 15:36
Quite HFS and until I compiled that chart, I didn't realise that Mrs Fenn and the Paynes were next door neighbours and from a listening point of view, that opens up other possibilites. 
Guest- Guest
Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by Daisy 28.11.11 13:43
Stella wrote:Quite HFS and until I compiled that chart, I didn't realise that Mrs Fenn and the Paynes were next door neighbours and from a listening point of view, that opens up other possibilites.
Indeed Stella. I only came across this interesting little fact last week (posted in Carol Tramner thread). I agree it certainly does open up other possibilities. It also explains why Gerry McCann felt the need to go and visit Mrs Fenn (interfering with a witnesss) under the pretence of an apology. More like he was afraid of what the old lady knew and wanted to be sure of her silence.
I have a rather good photo saved that I found tucked away on some obscure forum. I've never seen this photo anywhere else. It shows Mrs Fenn (I presume) on her balcony and the excellent view she had over the Payne's apartment. Does any one else have this picture stored? If not can someone tell me how to upload it please. I can't even find the forum I found it on now to link to.
____________________
“Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.”
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“And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.”
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Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by Daisy 28.11.11 14:30
Found it. Can someone upload it please? (Ignore the arrows they were already on pic.)
https://2img.net/r/ihimizer/img20/56/wilkinsaandb.jpg
If you blow this image up you will see what an excellent view Mrs Fenn had over the Payne's balcony area.
https://2img.net/r/ihimizer/img20/56/wilkinsaandb.jpg
If you blow this image up you will see what an excellent view Mrs Fenn had over the Payne's balcony area.
____________________
“Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.”
Unknown
“And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by PeterMac 28.11.11 14:42
See if this works.
(You click on the 16th little box from the left, which pops up as "image" and put the url directly into the space it gives you. Then press OK, and take a deep breath.)
(You click on the 16th little box from the left, which pops up as "image" and put the url directly into the space it gives you. Then press OK, and take a deep breath.)
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Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by Daisy 28.11.11 14:44
Thank you kind sir! 
____________________
“Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.”
Unknown
“And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by Guest 29.11.11 9:39
Good find with that photo Daisy. 
But back to the questions raised concerning 5j.
Why did all of the Portuguese dogs alert to the same front door? - don't tell me this tray was sitting there all night and all of the following day. Why would a tray even be there in the first place? The cleaner confirmed that she does not clean that apartment, which must mean it is not a rental. The cleaner said she was the only one to deal with that block. If it is occupied full time just like Mrs Fenn's was, why would the owner leave a tray outside their own front door? That's ridiculous. In what other ways could 5j have been occupied?
1. The owner never uses it and it just sits there possibly as an investment.
2. The owner uses it once or twice a year and does not need a regular cleaner.
Either way, a tray would not be left outside the front door at some point after the alarm was raised and into the early hours of the next morning, now would it? There was hotel staff everywhere running everywhere that night, so why didn't it get picked up?, more importantly who was in that apartment and why was Eddie never tasked to search it?
But back to the questions raised concerning 5j.
Why did all of the Portuguese dogs alert to the same front door? - don't tell me this tray was sitting there all night and all of the following day. Why would a tray even be there in the first place? The cleaner confirmed that she does not clean that apartment, which must mean it is not a rental. The cleaner said she was the only one to deal with that block. If it is occupied full time just like Mrs Fenn's was, why would the owner leave a tray outside their own front door? That's ridiculous. In what other ways could 5j have been occupied?
1. The owner never uses it and it just sits there possibly as an investment.
2. The owner uses it once or twice a year and does not need a regular cleaner.
Either way, a tray would not be left outside the front door at some point after the alarm was raised and into the early hours of the next morning, now would it? There was hotel staff everywhere running everywhere that night, so why didn't it get picked up?, more importantly who was in that apartment and why was Eddie never tasked to search it?
Guest- Guest
Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by Guest 29.11.11 13:22
From the cleaner's statement:
Processos Volume II Pages 392 - 394
Maria Julia Serafim da Silva - Cleaner
Date/Time: 2007/05/07 16H45
Concerning the issue of the process said:
. That she comes to the process as a witness, manifested by her intention to make declarations in order to clarify the facts of the present investigation;
. The question made, she informs that she has been employed as a cleaner for 13 months in the Ocean Club. Together, and in the same department, she works with her daughters, Fatima Maria and Dora Isabel;
. Regarding her functions, she clarifies that she is the person responsible for cleaning block 5, and more specifically, apartments A, B,C, D, H, I, K,L, M and P, and can conclusively affirm that when the minor disappeared, only the apartments A, B, D, G, H and K were occupied.
Which absolutely means, no tray should have been found on the floor outside 5J, as no one was staying there when the alarm was raised.
busted.....
It can only have come from the Payne's apartment 5H, as 5K is on the next floor up and Mrs Fenn in 5G, would not have taken food back to her apartment.
Perhaps someone put a tray on the floor outside 5J on purpose, to try and distract the dogs on the night !!!
I have a real funny feeling
we have a statement somewhere that states food was taken back to an apartment that night, I must try and find it.
Processos Volume II Pages 392 - 394
Maria Julia Serafim da Silva - Cleaner
Date/Time: 2007/05/07 16H45
Concerning the issue of the process said:
. That she comes to the process as a witness, manifested by her intention to make declarations in order to clarify the facts of the present investigation;
. The question made, she informs that she has been employed as a cleaner for 13 months in the Ocean Club. Together, and in the same department, she works with her daughters, Fatima Maria and Dora Isabel;
. Regarding her functions, she clarifies that she is the person responsible for cleaning block 5, and more specifically, apartments A, B,C, D, H, I, K,L, M and P, and can conclusively affirm that when the minor disappeared, only the apartments A, B, D, G, H and K were occupied.
Which absolutely means, no tray should have been found on the floor outside 5J, as no one was staying there when the alarm was raised.
busted.....It can only have come from the Payne's apartment 5H, as 5K is on the next floor up and Mrs Fenn in 5G, would not have taken food back to her apartment.
Perhaps someone put a tray on the floor outside 5J on purpose, to try and distract the dogs on the night !!!
I have a real funny feeling
we have a statement somewhere that states food was taken back to an apartment that night, I must try and find it.
Guest- Guest
Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by Daisy 29.11.11 13:43
Stella wrote:Good find with that photo Daisy.
But back to the questions raised concerning 5j.
Why did all of the Portuguese dogs alert to the same front door? - don't tell me this tray was sitting there all night and all of the following day. Why would a tray even be there in the first place? The cleaner confirmed that she does not clean that apartment, which must mean it is not a rental. The cleaner said she was the only one to deal with that block. If it is occupied full time just like Mrs Fenn's was, why would the owner leave a tray outside their own front door? That's ridiculous. In what other ways could 5j have been occupied?
1. The owner never uses it and it just sits there possibly as an investment.
2. The owner uses it once or twice a year and does not need a regular cleaner.
Either way, a tray would not be left outside the front door at some point after the alarm was raised and into the early hours of the next morning, now would it? There was hotel staff everywhere running everywhere that night, so why didn't it get picked up?, more importantly who was in that apartment and why was Eddie never tasked to search it?
Stella, according to Mrs Fenn's niece, Mrs Fenn was the only full time resident in that block.
____________________
“Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.”
Unknown
“And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by Guest 29.11.11 15:29
In which case Daisy, I would suspect that 5j is owned by someone who only ever uses it once or twice a year for their own purposes.
Did someone hold a key on their behalf in the event of an emergency?
Could that key have been removed and the apartment used without anyone knowing?
Did someone hold a key on their behalf in the event of an emergency?
Could that key have been removed and the apartment used without anyone knowing?
Guest- Guest
Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by Guest 29.11.11 16:43
Stella - I`m probably being dense here but can you direct me to the source of the tray outside 5J? I`ve seen the GNR report which mentions a tray outside 4G( think this is where the Mccanns were moved) but nothing about a tray outside 5J. I think the GNR found rottingfood and vegetables inside the fridge in 5J.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
This mentions the food inside 5J.
The following link mentions the tray outside 4G.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm
Guest- Guest
Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by Guest 30.11.11 9:42
Sorry Alison, I think I let my bad memory run away with me yesterday, you are absolutely right.
“All the apartments were searched by the dogs and when they arrived at apartment 5 J they began to sniff with intensity at the entrance door”. - So the initial excitement still began outside the front door of apartment 5j, looking for the specific scent they were looking for.
“During this behaviour it was noted by the PJ officers that there must be some unusual odour, but which with all certainty did not have anything to do with the odour being searched for, but there must have been something strange inside”. - This is where we should bear in mind that the dog handlers were from GNR, yet this comment about “with all certainty”, came from a PJ officer, now that is very interesting. Considering these statements were from the GNR officers, how did PJ comments enter into it. Was Rebelo at work here?
“After entering the apartment, it was observed that the odour came from close to the fridge, which was open and contained some rotting meat and vegetables” - The odour came from close to the fridge, not inside the fridge !! Why had the fridge door been left open with meat inside? Did someone want a smell to come from inside that apartment? If it is not cleaned on a regular basis as confirmed by the block 5 cleaner, it is probably not used regularly either, so why would anyone leave meat inside it for long periods? Was someone using that apartment, who vacated it just before the 3rd?
“It is certain however, that the dog signalled next to apartments 5J, 5H, and 4G. He showed great interest in sniffing these doors and the immediate areas”. - So this dog on the 8th May I believe, signals only to the Payne apartment 5H, one two doors along from that at 5J and the one the McCann’s moved to a few days before at 4G. Two out of three of those apartments Madeleine never visited, so how do we explain that one?
“Next to door 5H there were two bags of rubbish and the odour may have distracted the dog”. - The 8th May was a Tuesday, a day that rubbish is collected and no cleaning is done. Considering the amount of time the McCann’s spent in the Payne apartment, perhaps the dogs had good cause to be distracted by the bin bags.
“Outside 4G was a tray of plates, cutlery and cloth napkins that had apparently been used”. - Why only apparently? Either they were dirty and had been used, or they were clean and had not.
“The second dog was taken through the same operation and also showed interest at the door of apartment 5J. This same dog jumped on his hind paws to the parapet of the veranda and raised his head as though in search of an odour”. - Interest at the front door again and on the veranda !! both areas outside that apartment, where the air flows freely. How very interesting.
“the sniffer dog immediately headed to the parking area next to block 6 and there apparently lost the scent. - Has a diagram been produced that covers the route taken? Block 6 is where Berry and Balu were staying and Berry was the one who was allegedly seen hanging around the stairwell in block 5 on the night, which is why he had to give a statement.
“All the apartments were searched by the dogs and when they arrived at apartment 5 J they began to sniff with intensity at the entrance door”. - So the initial excitement still began outside the front door of apartment 5j, looking for the specific scent they were looking for.
“During this behaviour it was noted by the PJ officers that there must be some unusual odour, but which with all certainty did not have anything to do with the odour being searched for, but there must have been something strange inside”. - This is where we should bear in mind that the dog handlers were from GNR, yet this comment about “with all certainty”, came from a PJ officer, now that is very interesting. Considering these statements were from the GNR officers, how did PJ comments enter into it. Was Rebelo at work here?
“After entering the apartment, it was observed that the odour came from close to the fridge, which was open and contained some rotting meat and vegetables” - The odour came from close to the fridge, not inside the fridge !! Why had the fridge door been left open with meat inside? Did someone want a smell to come from inside that apartment? If it is not cleaned on a regular basis as confirmed by the block 5 cleaner, it is probably not used regularly either, so why would anyone leave meat inside it for long periods? Was someone using that apartment, who vacated it just before the 3rd?
“It is certain however, that the dog signalled next to apartments 5J, 5H, and 4G. He showed great interest in sniffing these doors and the immediate areas”. - So this dog on the 8th May I believe, signals only to the Payne apartment 5H, one two doors along from that at 5J and the one the McCann’s moved to a few days before at 4G. Two out of three of those apartments Madeleine never visited, so how do we explain that one?
“Next to door 5H there were two bags of rubbish and the odour may have distracted the dog”. - The 8th May was a Tuesday, a day that rubbish is collected and no cleaning is done. Considering the amount of time the McCann’s spent in the Payne apartment, perhaps the dogs had good cause to be distracted by the bin bags.
“Outside 4G was a tray of plates, cutlery and cloth napkins that had apparently been used”. - Why only apparently? Either they were dirty and had been used, or they were clean and had not.
“The second dog was taken through the same operation and also showed interest at the door of apartment 5J. This same dog jumped on his hind paws to the parapet of the veranda and raised his head as though in search of an odour”. - Interest at the front door again and on the veranda !! both areas outside that apartment, where the air flows freely. How very interesting.
“the sniffer dog immediately headed to the parking area next to block 6 and there apparently lost the scent. - Has a diagram been produced that covers the route taken? Block 6 is where Berry and Balu were staying and Berry was the one who was allegedly seen hanging around the stairwell in block 5 on the night, which is why he had to give a statement.
Guest- Guest
Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by Guest 30.11.11 10:18
Do the files contain any communication from the PJ to the owners of 5J? (I think not)
Did the PJ ask them precisely when was the last time their apartment was in use and by whom?
Was instructions given at that time to leave the fridge door open, with food inside, on their way out?
I think this must be another one of those items that has been witheld from the DVD.
Did the PJ ask them precisely when was the last time their apartment was in use and by whom?
Was instructions given at that time to leave the fridge door open, with food inside, on their way out?
I think this must be another one of those items that has been witheld from the DVD.
Guest- Guest
Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by Guest 30.11.11 10:21
In light of the fact that the GNR dogs were brought in on various days, I think I need to chart which ones alerted to what places and on what days. This may take me a little while. 
Guest- Guest
Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by Ollie 30.11.11 10:28
Could it of been Gerrys scent they caught? If I remember rightly (please correct if I'm wrong) the dogs were given a towel supposedly with Madeleines scent, but it could well of been Gerrys scent. Which then throws up the question what was he doing in apartment 5J and how did he get the keys?
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Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by Guest 30.11.11 11:22
That is one of the biggest problem Ollie. We simply do not know what the dogs were given to track in the first place. As you say, anyone could have used the towel and do we really know for sure that the other item, the blanket was even Madeleine's or one of the twins?
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Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by Guest 30.11.11 12:21
On 7th May the same searches were continued, being extended to to the entire northern part of Almadena to the site of Espojeiro and the verges of the EN125 until the Boi valley. At about 19h00 the undersigned officer, accompanied by the Commander, Officer Silva, took part in a meetings with the PJ Directorate, being asked by the PJ about the viability of giving the girl’s clothes to the dogs for the dogs to sniff again, and if by means of the odour inhaled, they would be able to mark an identical odour in one of the resort’s apartments even though its door was closed. With regard to this task, Officer Silva referred to the fact that the time that had passed would be a crucial condition for the dogs' work in obtaining results and that the entirety of the human odours existing in the apartments and access paths could make the dogs' searches very difficult. However, in spite of not being a normal situation for tracking, it could be attempted, whilst the operation should be carried out as quickly as possible and not directed towards one but to all the apartments in the resort, it being appropriate for the handler not to know which apartment was chosen, so as not the be conditioned. In this concrete situation, the objective would be for the dogs to carry out a discontinuous search, in other words, to sniff the girl’s clothes and immediately search near to the apartments, checking to see if there was any change in the behaviour of the dogs. At about 23h00 accompanied by a PJ inspector, the searches were begun. After Rex was given the girl's clothing to sniff, he began to search on the ground floor of block 5 and when he passed the door of apartment 5A (the place the girl had disappeared from) according to his handler, officer Fernandes, the dog altered its behaviour, sniffing with greater intensity than he had done before. Apartment 5J of the same block was also checked as the dog had been more agitated than before as if there were a very strong strange odour there. It was stated that this apartment had been unoccupied for some time. Afterwards, the same kind of search was carried out using the dog Zarus which in general terms showed the same behaviour in the same places as Rex had done. It was only when all the searches of the apartments in blocks 4 and 5 were complete, that the behaviour described above was registered. It is certain that this kind of work does not correspond to the area that these dogs were trained in, but given that these types of dogs manage to discriminate a specific odour from others, although it could be a remote possibility that they related the odour of the missing girl with a possible location where she could have been.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id258.html
Only two apartments mentioned here, 5A and 5J.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id258.html
Only two apartments mentioned here, 5A and 5J.
Guest- Guest
Re: Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs
by Ollie 30.11.11 12:30
Thanks for posting that Stella. So what were the dogs alerting to? it wasn't the rotten food found in 5J. Also interesting is that Eddie and Keila didn't alert to cadaver or blood in apartment 5J.
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