Re: The creche enquiry

by Guest 02.07.11 16:03

"I visited the family in their home at their invitation to see how they were getting along in November of 2007".

The choice of words is quite interesting here. It's almost as if she is justifying this trip out of her concern for them !

by Guest 02.07.11 16:06

"On this day (3^rd) I remember that we sailed and I saw friends of the McCann’s on the beach, David and Jane".

How did she know that Dave was Gerry's friend? None of Dave's children was in Madeleine's group. Or did Dave arrive with Gerry in the mornings to help Gerry sign Madeleine in ??

by **kikoraton** 02.07.11 16:18

Blimey, Stella, you're doing some excellent sleuthing there, amongst the hundreds of statements.
Did the McCs say anything about meeting Cat on the p.m. of 28 April? I expect they showed Cat lots of photos of the substitute Madxlene when she visted Rothley Towers.

by Guest 02.07.11 16:23

Hi Kiko, there are two more interesting bits, but I have to dash now, as hubby is cooking would you believe it Spanish Kebabs. It takes forever and a day to get outside these days, so I have to leave what seems a day ahead of everyone else. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by **kikoraton** 02.07.11 16:47

Count me in for a kebab, Stella!

by ROSA 02.07.11 23:44

Thankyou Stella for the PM :)

by ROSA 03.07.11 0:45

Stella wrote:"I visited the family in their home at their invitation to see how they were getting along in November of 2007".

The choice of words is quite interesting here. It's almost as if she is justifying this trip out of her concern for them !

Good Friends ?

pop2

by Guest 03.07.11 8:55

"I never noted anything strange in Madeleine's comportment during the time I stayed with her. There was one occasion, on Thursday, 3rd of May 2007, around 10H30 in the morning, where she cried at the launch of the yellow safety boat in the ocean where all the children were sailing. She was scared and fearful and cried on my lap "I am scared, I am scared." We only used the launches to transport the children to the small yellow boats. When we returned to the other boat she was happy again. She sailed in the small boat and even though some children had the opportunity to return to the port, she stayed for a second time as she appeared to be having a good time. Jane Tanner's daughter also took part in my group and together they would play. Apart from being a happy child in the club, she always seemed very content when she saw her parents. Madeleine did not demonstrate any fear with the return launch to land".

What I find really odd about this comment, is that she starts to describe a specific event, one where "Madeleine" appears terrified, but she somehow manages to go off on a tangent to explain that Madeleine and Tanner's daughter played well together, not on the boat obviously, but then manages to return back to the boating incident. A side step.

Why was it so important for her to drop into the conversation during this boating incident that Madeleine was at ease to see her parents?? Why wouldn't she be ??

by Guest 03.07.11 9:03

On Thursday the 3rd of May 2007, I remember Gerry having accompanied Madeleine to the club between 9h15 and 9h20 in the morning. I do not remember who came to pick her up for lunch".

Is it just me, or does this scream of selective memory ?

How could she remember a year or more down the line that Gerry brought her in at 09.15-.9.20, yet she could not remember on the biggest day of her life who collected her at lunch ?

Someone must have shown her the creche sheets to know Gerry brought her in that day at 9.15 right? Or did they?

by Guest 03.07.11 9:07

"Mark Warner maintained a register to all the activities in which the children participated. It functioned as a calendar, referring hour by hour, to what the children were doing. I believe that the Portuguese police collected the sign-in/out sheets and the registry of activities immediately on the day following the disappearance".

Here is the confirmation that the creche sheets were in the possession of the PJ on the 4th of May.

by Guest 03.07.11 9:10

"During the week which Madeleine stayed in the club there were three events organized that included a trip to the beach. One of these events took place on Thursday in the morning".

Madeleine walked all the way to beach 3 times that week, yet only on one of those days did she complain of being tired !! The 3rd.

by Guest 03.07.11 9:13

"Mark Warner moved me from the Ocean Club about one week after - 13th of May, I believe".

Unbelievable really. Just 9 days after a child in her care goes missing Mark Warner has her relocated allegedly to Greece.

But how did Kate and Gerry manage to track her down to invite her over to England?

by Guest 03.07.11 9:19

Nothing like allowing someone to refresh their memory. God forbid we didn't get our stories right, eh ?

"I was interviewed on DVD, by DC GIERC of the Leicestershire Police between 10h09 and 10h54 on Monday, 14th of April of 2008 in the Leicestershire police headquarters. I can affirm that my statement on DVD is truthful and in accord with my understanding.

Between 11h57 and 12h12 of the same day I was again interviewed on DVD by DC GIERC. During this interview I was permitted to refresh my memory after reading my translated original statement made to the Portuguese police. There are two facts that I would like to clarify: "dining out service" which is mentioned is available for the adults, being that the children would be left under the care of a childcare worker during dinner. My original deposition also mentioned that Madeleine offered more attention to the boys in the club. I do not remember having made such an affirmation given that Madeleine passed the majority of time playing with Jane Tanner's daughter. I confirm that the deposition in this second DVD is truthful and in accord with my knowledge and that it will be registered.

Between 13h35 and 13h45 of the same day I was once again interviewed by DC GIERC. One more time I confirm that my statement is true and in accord with my understanding".

by Guest 03.07.11 9:24

Kiko, do you think it's possible our "Madeleine" knew quite well the son of Totman or Mann from before that holiday ?

Or, perhaps our "Madeleine" had a brother out there ?

by pauline 03.07.11 9:51

Stella wrote:"Mark Warner moved me from the Ocean Club about one week after - 13th of May, I believe".

Unbelievable really. Just 9 days after a child in her care goes missing Mark Warner has her relocated allegedly to Greece.

But how did Kate and Gerry manage to track her down to invite her over to England?

madeleine wasn't in Cats's care when she went missing - she was in her parents care.

Holiday childcare workers, in my experience, are sometimes moved from one resort to another depending on the needs of the company. If there are more bookings with children in Greece and cancellations in PDL (which there might well have been) doesn't it make sense to transfer staff there?

How did they track her down - well they could have asked Mark Warner! Even if Mark Warner only said she was in the Greek centre, that would be enough to track her down. When she left PDL for Greece she most likely said goodbye to the Mccanns and gave them her mobile number.

by Guest 03.07.11 10:25

pauline wrote:
madeleine wasn't in Cats's care when she went missing - she was in her parents care.
Only SOME of the time Pauline. During the day, on average of about 6 hours, Madeleine WAS in the care of Catriona Baker and not her parents. More hours a day than she actually spent with her parents I believe.

Holiday childcare workers, in my experience, are sometimes moved from one resort to another depending on the needs of the company. If there are more bookings with children in Greece and cancellations in PDL (which there might well have been) doesn't it make sense to transfer staff there?
No absolutely not. What a lame excuse. At any given time the PJ may have needed to ask her something very important, but with her thousands of miles away, how are they going to do that ?

How did they track her down - well they could have asked Mark Warner! Even if Mark Warner only said she was in the Greek centre, that would be enough to track her down. When she left PDL for Greece she most likely said goodbye to the Mccanns and gave them her mobile number.
You seem to be very quick to defend the McCann's Pauline.

by Guest 03.07.11 10:40

Stella wrote:
pauline wrote:
Holiday childcare workers, in my experience, are sometimes moved from one resort to another depending on the needs of the company. If there are more bookings with children in Greece and cancellations in PDL (which there might well have been) doesn't it make sense to transfer staff there?
No absolutely not. What a lame excuse. At any given time the PJ may have needed to ask her something very important, but with her thousands of miles away, how are they going to do that ?

I absolutely agree with that Stella. The PJ had a very difficult job. It was bad enough with all the holidaymakers that had to leave and return home, which they couldn't really stop, but the nannies were of paramount importance in this case, and it was very surprising indeed that Cat (and weren't there others) transferred out of the resort so quickly.

Out of interest, how many of the tapas 7 stayed? Didn't some of them leave quite quickly too, I have forgotten the details.

by Guest 03.07.11 10:50

It seems we are not the only ones questioning the creche sheets.

From [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Since a small part of the case file - the DVD version was made accessible to the public, a great deal of ink has flowed. We note that it is necessary to be cautious as to its contents. In fact, it is only 17% of the complete case file and certain details are only of interest in relation to the complete file and not taken out of their context.

You probably know that our team, at the association, is comprised mainly of professionals from the field of police work. As such, we have analysed the case file and from the first pages, we have identified a few anomalies. Thus, the registers from the Kids Club appeared to be incomplete. Certain gaps have not been explained.

Thus we note that on May 1st 2007, Madeleine McCann's name is on the Kids Club register. She arrived at 9.30am, dropped off by Gerry. According to the register, Gerry spent the morning playing tennis. He went back to fetch Madeleine at 12.20pm. Where things seem stranger to us is in the entries for the afternoon. Gerry drops Madeleine off at the Kids Club at 2.30pm and he spends his afternoon, again according to the register, playing tennis and at the swimming pool. Oddly, no one went back to fetch Madeleine in the evening! No signature for the evening of May 1st 2007. Why? Why did no one sign the register that evening?

Various explanations are possible.

It could be imagined that the parents arrived late to pick up Madeleine and that they didn't take the time to sign the register. In that case, why isn't that made clear in the case file? Why is there no mention of this possible lateness? And above all, why were they late? Right in the middle of an investigation into the mysterious disappearance of a little four year-old girl, these details are important. But the anomalies continue the following day.

According to the register for May 2nd 2007, the day before Madeleine's disappearance, Kate dropped Maddie off at the Kids Club at 9.20am. Madeleine was picked up at 12.30pm but it's not Kate or Gerry's signature on the register. Someone else has signed the register in the space for parents. The signature of Cat nanny, in other words, CATRIONA BAKER is found there.

Here too, you could imagine various explanations. The parents arrived late (once again?) and in a hurry (why?), they didn't sign the register. You could think that they forgot, for the second time, to sign the register. You could imagine that Catriona had finished her shift and as the parents had not yet come to fetch Maddie, Catriona signed the register then took Madeleine to her parents. You could imagine lots of things. But no explanation is provided in the case file. Catriona didn't mention it in her interview, the parents neither. But this kind of detail raises questions that need to be resolved. Too many unanswered questions, too many whys, too many gaps, not enough explanation.

These explanations could go in both directions. Thus, the investigators must wonder if Maddie didn't disappear sooner than May 3rd? If she was indeed present present at the Kids Club on the afternoon of May 1st? Why didn't anyone sign the register? Was she actually present at the Kids Club on the morning of May 2nd? Why did Catriona sign in the space for parents? Why does Kate's signature on the register for May 2nd seem different from Kate's other signatures? Where were the parents if someone else signed for them?

Certainly, these anomalies may only be trivial details, but these details could equally be significant, even fundamental to the investigation. Don't forget we are talking about the disappearance of a little four year-old girl. We cannot allow ourselves to leave these questions unanswered.

These anomalies, which are the first of a long series, were communicate to whom they may concern. And it is in referring to the article on SOS Madeleine of November 19th, we discover that a hand-writing report would be necessary. This confirms our suspicions and implicitly confirms certain rumours mentioning forged pieces of writing, forged signatures....manipulated documents...signatures added several days after the date indicated...etc.

If this report, that SOS Madeleine speaks of, confirms our our suspicions (and the rumours) these details which we have officially revealed, are then clearly less "trivial" !!!!

by Guest 03.07.11 10:59

Amy Tierney was Catriona Bakers supervisor.

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Amy was also the person to print off the first copies of "Madeleine", from her printer that mysteriously disappeared.

"When on the night of 3rd May, at about 24.00, she was at her desk at the Tapas bar, inside the resort, when at a certain time, one of the friends of the McCann couple, Russell, asked for a USB memory stick reader, in order to print photographs of Madeleine".

by Guest 03.07.11 11:10

candyfloss wrote:
Out of interest, how many of the tapas 7 stayed? Didn't some of them leave quite quickly too, I have forgotten the details.

I'm not sure on that one Candyfloss, it's something I will need to find out.

by Guest 03.07.11 11:20

Stella wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
Out of interest, how many of the tapas 7 stayed? Didn't some of them leave quite quickly too, I have forgotten the details.

I'm not sure on that one Candyfloss, it's something I will need to find out.

I found this Stella - it seems the Payne's stayed behind for some weeks after the abduction...............

DAVID AND FIONA PAYNE (nee Webster) (Aged 41 and 34 respectively) Year 2007
David Anthony Payne is a senior research fellow in cardiovascular sciences at Leicester University [David Payne is NOT a senior research fellow at Leicester University. That was a temporary post which ended in 2003. He is a surgeon at Leicester Royal Infirmary, specialising in strokes.], and a doctor. Dr Fiona Payne and her husband David were among those who stayed on in the Algarve to support the McCanns for several weeks after the abduction. It was David Payne who organised the group’s holidays at Praia de Luz. The reservation was made over the internet, after a good experience with the Ocean Club’s group in Greece. This was the second time that David visited Portugal. The first time was eleven years ago, before he got married. David and Fiona have been together for seven years and they have two children. They were the only ones in the group who used the babyphone system to keep watch over the children during dinner. Fiona Payne, born in Bedford in 1972, was back in the Algarve on July 11, along with Rachel Oldfield and Russell O’Brien, in order to give their third deposition to the PJ. The Paynes live in Stoneygate about a 30 minute drive from the McCanns at Rothley. It has been reported that the McCanns occasionally visit them on a Sunday.

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by Guest 03.07.11 11:26

You know what, this nanny Pauline McCann was only ever asked if she knew Kate & Gerry, but what if she knew someone in the wider McCann family?

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Questioned, states that she also does not know Madeleine's parents, and the twins did not frequent the Baby Club given their age.

by Guest 03.07.11 11:32

As yet, I cannot find one single creche worker who saw Madeleine on the 28th, the day they arrived, at the welcome meeting.

Tanner said there was someone there specifically to talk about child care, but who was this?

by Guest 03.07.11 11:55

I feel that Stella was a little hard on Pauline by suggesting that she is very quick to support the McCanns; it seems to me anyway that Pauline was merely pointing out that some facts are open to individual interpretation and this can lead to them being used erroneously to back up a particular theory. I'm certainly not a supporter of the McCann Circus - overall the initial story and their subsequent behaviour contains more holes than a colander - but there are I think some things being raised which are being given more importance than perhaps they merit.

May I say how pleased I am to have discovered this website. It certainly isn't always easy to stand up (sometimes in the face of very hostile opposition) and make yourself heard.

by ROSA 03.07.11 23:29

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by ROSA 04.07.11 0:06

But was it their first time? The Sunday Times doesn't seem to think so. They printed on 13 May 2007 that: 'The McCanns are believed to have stayed once before in Praia da Luz and had returned because they considered it a safe resort.'

In the MSNBC documentary, Richard Gaisford said, when talking of Praia da Luz: "It's a very warm welcoming friendly place. And it was a place the McCanns knew well. They'd been to the resort before." (MSNBC Missing Madeleine en op 3arguidoforum)

by ROSA 04.07.11 2:13

Luisa Ana de Noronha de Azevedo Coutinho

Occupation: Receptionist
She remembers that on Sunday 29th April one of the elements of the group arrived with the child Madeleine McCann, she does not know his name and can only say that he was male and tall and thin and that he approached her to request a booking for the whole group, for the whole week and always at 20.30.

GM is not thin the child madeleine mccann is the subsitute who are these elements

by Guest 04.07.11 8:54

Jean wrote:
- but there are I think some things being raised which are being given more importance than perhaps they merit.

Well Jean, if you cannot understand the significance of the integrity of these creche records with it quite possibly pointing to an earlier time of death, even after 24 pages worth of very detailed information. Sadly I think you never will.

Whatever happens, we are going to continue to discuss these items whether you like it or not. People who are genuinely here to discuss, debate and constructively counter argue, will never be faced with hostility. But for those who are here just to deflect and disrupt, for no other reason than to try and stop a particular subject from being discussed, will.

If we loose one or two along the way who are not happy about this, so be it. But as you can see, there has now been over 5,000 views on this one topic and I am guessing that there is a large amount of people out there who can see the importance.

by Miraflores 04.07.11 9:31

Stella wrote:
Jean wrote:
- but there are I think some things being raised which are being given more importance than perhaps they merit.
Well Jean, if you cannot understand the significance of the integrity of these creche records with it quite possibly pointing to an earlier time of death, even after 24 pages worth of very detailed information. Sadly I think you never will.

I think you are being a bit harsh here to Jean, Stella. I am not sure how important the creche records are myself. I do think it is something the Police need to look at - is it significant, were the records falsified to cover up Madeleine's absence, or is it no more significant than Mark Warner's staff having sloppy record keeping and seeking to cover their backs about it? I think the latter is just as likely.

We have to be careful, I think, to stick to facts as much as possible - we don't need to give the 'pro McCann' camp evidence that we are vile nutters, making ludicrous statements. Just my tuppence worth, you understand.

by pauline 04.07.11 9:46

Miraflores wrote:
Stella wrote:
Jean wrote:
- but there are I think some things being raised which are being given more importance than perhaps they merit.
Well Jean, if you cannot understand the significance of the integrity of these creche records with it quite possibly pointing to an earlier time of death, even after 24 pages worth of very detailed information. Sadly I think you never will.

I think you are being a bit harsh here to Jean, Stella. I am not sure how important the creche records are myself. I do think it is something the Police need to look at - is it significant, were the records falsified to cover up Madeleine's absence, or is it no more significant than Mark Warner's staff having sloppy record keeping and seeking to cover their backs about it? I think the latter is just as likely.

We have to be careful, I think, to stick to facts as much as possible - we don't need to give the 'pro McCann' camp evidence that we are vile nutters, making ludicrous statements. Just my tuppence worth, you understand.

My thoughts exactly Miraflores. Like Jean, I have felt the lash of a Stella post because I try to look for explanations that don't fit the theory as well as one that does. Sometimes simple answers make sense - like your suggestion of sloppy record keeping in the creche. Stella and others do brilliant research and obviously it takes a lot of their time, but they shouldn't feel offended when people suggest a particular line of inquiry may not be very significant, and attempt to test it. A pro Mccann friend of mine says I try to make the facts fit my theory that there was no abduction - I say to her she needs to read the police file and other material. I hope she will. But since that comment I have looked more critically at my own thinking because I do feel she had a point.