Re: The creche enquiry

by ROSA 27.06.11 21:16

T7 and Naylor put there necks on the line for K&G help cover the truth but why do a group of adults do this there must be a common factor what did they do to Madeleine was she abused by all these people was she there toy to play with did they do tghings to there toy for pleasure but go to far then have to kill her p129?

by ROSA 27.06.11 23:22

On Saturday 28th April 2007, after their arrival in Luz, Kate McCann’s mobile triggered the antenna 9 times. It is not possible to say, from the available records, whether these were incoming or outgoing calls or SMSs or for how long they lasted. The last activations were at 20.55 and 20.59 when (based on their statements) the Tapas 9 returned for an early night after eating at the Millennium Restaurant with their children. All of these records were erased from the memory of Kate McCann’s mobile. Gerald McCann’s mobile did not activate any of the Luz antennae that day.

by **kikoraton** 28.06.11 7:26

Excellent work being done here, bringing everything together.
So we have KM's word for it that 28 April was the anniversary of Madeleine's death? Well, thank you, Kate. I would have put a little more money on the early hours of 29 April, given a choice between the two. But who am I to argue?
Those writings showing the ticks on the "A" have been zoomed up beautifully, Stella. Didn't achieve that, with my limited skills! Could you email them to me?
Question is, since Madeleine died on 28 April, how come Gerry and Naylor had the record-signing thingie in place by 29 April? I mean, without careful pre-meditation and planning, how could you achieve that, with a total stranger?
And all that lying stuff about "never called her Maddie"!!!! That suggests strongly to me that the substitute girl, probably daughter of friends or relatives of the Naylors, was known as (sounds like) Madeleine, but never as Maddie.

by Guest 28.06.11 9:27

kikoraton wrote:"How can we get them to test the creche sheets ??"
That's a very good question. Would they need the originals? I suppose they would.
I would think from a legal point of view the originals could not be contended in court and from judging how heavy handed someone was, only the originals could show this not a copy.

My crappy old photocopies, transferred to computer, are good enough for me, but to test these strokes of the pen/pencil with holographs would need best quality.
I agree and we need to try and contact them to see if they would approach the PJ or the Met to offer their services in one of the biggest crimes of the century. That should prick their ears up, to be involved in a global investigation.

Why are they good enough for me? Well, an ex-cop on the other forum said that using the old method, you need hundreds of examples to form a conclusive idea whether a piece of writing has been "forged" (written by one person pretending to be another). But I counter with this: in a group of at the very most seven men, signing in and out their kids, if two of them are near-identical, doesn't that suggest that the same person wrote them both? What are the chances of finding such a great degree of similarity amongst only seven men?
And that's only the writing of names and figures. When you see how laughable were the attempts to imitate a signature-flourish, you know for sure that someone (we know who) is up to dirty tricks.
Exactly. I could not agree more.

by Guest 28.06.11 9:40

kikoraton wrote:Excellent work being done here, bringing everything together.
So we have KM's word for it that 28 April was the anniversary of Madeleine's death? Well, thank you, Kate. I would have put a little more money on the early hours of 29 April, given a choice between the two. But who am I to argue?
Those writings showing the ticks on the "A" have been zoomed up beautifully, Stella. Didn't achieve that, with my limited skills! Could you email them to me?
No need to email you Kiko. If you go to the illustration and click on the enlarge image above it bit. Then click your cursor on top of the image, then press right-click and select 'save image' and pop it on your desktop, you will have it. All thanks for that excellent illustration is down to another member here, Ufercoffy I think ?? I just copied it.

Question is, since Madeleine died on 28 April, how come Gerry and Naylor had the record-signing thingie in place by 29 April? I mean, without careful pre-meditation and planning, how could you achieve that, with a total stranger?
And all that lying stuff about "never called her Maddie"!!!! That suggests strongly to me that the substitute girl, probably daughter of friends or relatives of the Naylors, was known as (sounds like) Madeleine, but never as Maddie.
Yes. Or and this is a big OR, all of the little girls out there were part of an IVF trial of some kind and they did all look similar and finding a substitute was more easier than we think. Even Murat's daughter looked a bit like Madeleine and Bridget O'Donnell said she couldn't tell all of the little girls apart playing tennis. "All in pink" she said. Now what are the chances of that, or was this the IVF group photo of 2007 ?? It would explain why the investigation was off limits. All in the name of progress and that. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by Guest 28.06.11 9:55

nomendel wrote:Very good point regarding the release date of the book although wasn't the actual release moved one week forward or backward as she was worried about all the publicity being on the Royal Wedding (29/4)? Given their arrogance I'm surprised she didn't ask the Royals to delay teh wedding a week.

Yes nomendel. Kate's release date was delayed until the 12th May in the end, on Madeleine's birthday, so as not to clash with the Royal wedding on the 29th. But, during the process of getting the book together, her publicist and her publishers would have sat down with Kate to arrange a suitable release date. This would have been done many weeks or months before. But who suggested the 28th and why? Issuing a release date on it's own is fine. But issuing a release date saying, to coincide with her disappearence exactly 4 years ago, when officially it never happened on that date, is very worrying.

by Guest 28.06.11 11:35

More on the technology that examines handwriting.

'Complex science'

Counterfeiters usually try to forge signatures by tracing, but increasingly, they are using freehand methods to copy the characteristics of a signature.

By examining unique pressure and cross-over points with the 3D model, the researchers say forgers will be unable to copy an individual's signature easily.

"Graphology is a complex science," said Mr Cozzella.

"But this method, in one or two hours which is needed for a correct and precise scanning of a signature, allows a graphology expert to eliminate important doubts that changes definitely her or his final decision."

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by **PeterMac** 28.06.11 12:10

But a possible problem might be that this work would cost a fortune, and would only be undertaken if the principal suspicion revolved around the creche records.
For example if Madeleine had been reported as having disappeared during one of the creche sessions.
Highly suspicious though the records are, I think there may be more pressing and obvious lines of enquiry for any investigators.

by ROSA 28.06.11 12:19

if there are signs of fraud the investigaters should ignore it ? i hope not

by **PeterMac** 28.06.11 12:29

That is not what I am saying.
Any investigation has to concentrate on what are apparently the most important issues first.
In this case the JT statement, the Gerry and Jez and JT nonsense, the cadaver odour, and blood odour, and many other things.
It may well be that the Creche records point to a conspiracy infinitely wider and more complicated than anything we have even dreamt of so far, but the SIO has a duty to try to keep things simple and to find Madeleine either alive, as we all hope and wish (and even pray) for - despite what the pro-sites claim - or, perhaps more likely and tragically, her mortal remains.
And to work from there, to discover the truth about what happened to Madeleine McCann and to bring to justice those responsible for whatever that was.
Exacty in line with the second stated aim of the "Fund"
To procure that Madeleine's abduction is thoroughly investigated and that her abductors, as well as those who played or play any part in assisting them, are identified and brought to justice;

by **kikoraton** 28.06.11 12:39

I see your logic and experience at work here, PeterMac. But after 4 unfruitful years, I think some of us are hoping that one or other of the police forces involved could now find time for a little more of the imaginative "out of left field" type of work. Is Colombo really dead? roses

by Guest 28.06.11 12:46

Perhaps the people who created that technology would examine them pro bono. If I were them I would seriously think about the global recognition ££££$$$$$$$$$££££££££ and the publicity it would create for them. Being linked to the biggest crime of the century that involves the British Government and a visit to the Pope !!!

by Guest 28.06.11 13:00

The thing is, some of the Jellyfish (twins) creche records have been witheld form the DVD, so someone has already found something wrong in that area. It's just a case of expanding on that.

How long does it take for an expert in the Met to do what we have done, to see that something's not right? 1 hour, maybe 2. They have £3.4M at their disposal, they could look at Kiko's example on here in seconds if they wanted to.

by ROSA 28.06.11 13:12

What if the met do see Stella what will happen next ? Will Naylor be questioned ?

by ROSA 28.06.11 13:59

They lied when saying they went to the Millenium the first night because the' Tapas' was closed ( Millenium was part of their 'half board' package deal)
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by Guest 28.06.11 14:45

ROSA wrote:What if the met do see Stella what will happen next ? Will Naylor be questioned ?

That would be a good start ROSA. Followed by all the other parents using that creche group who is on the list. But more urgently I would speak to all the guests who either left early or arranged to stay longer last minute. So far I know of 3 of them. One of them has never been spoken to by any Police force EVER !!!

by **kikoraton** 28.06.11 20:25

I have a little list of those who should be questioned/requestioned. Naylor. His family friend. Murat. Walczuch. Two people on the "last to talk with........" list who haven't yet been identified, but would be if the police investigated their telephone numbers and accounts.

by ROSA 28.06.11 22:53

Re:DISCREPANCY LIST
(Date Posted:11/08/2010 9:55 AM)

Discrepancy Questions..

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1 Why did the Paynes and Matthew Oldfield claim to have passed each other in very different places on the way to the tapas and Dianne Webster claimed to have not seen him until her Rogatory when she remembered because Dave and Fiona had reminded her.

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2 Why did Rachael claim the last time she saw Madeleine was at mini tennis on Thursday. Madeleine's group played on Tuesday. Is Tuesday the last time she saw her?

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3 Why did Rachael describe the mini tennis as played on Court 1, when the records show it was Court 2. (the police seemed to find it important by questioning her)

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4 Why did Catriona claim that Gerry wasn't at high tea on May 3rd and that she thought he was at tennis, when both Kate and Gerry claim he was there.

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5 Why did Gerry claim to have entered the front door and opened the patio doors for Kate who was carrying Madeleine back from high tea on May 3rd. Kate says they all went in through the front doors.

6 Why did they give different accounts of Madeleine asking about why they didn't come to her. (She asked her father, she asked Kate, it was the twins crying, it was her crying etc)

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7 Why did Gerry claim that he picked Madeleine up from the creche on Thursday lunch (he remembered taking the short cut) when Kate and Fiona claim they walked together. Kate says she went to the apartment first, Fiona said they left from the pool area.

8 Why did the police compile the Diagram of Events according to Catriona telling them that she only went to the beach twice, on Tuesday and Wednesday afternoon, not mentioning the mini sail.

9 Why did they not release Thursday diagram or twins creche record for Thursday morning?

10 Why, after the family's trip to the beach Tuesday lunchtime (for 5 ice creams) did they drop Madleine off at the creche in time for her to go on another trip (to the beach?) for ice cream trip

11 Why did Catriona claim they went to the beach 15.30 to 16.30 on Tuesday and Wednesday and did not mention the ice cream trip, 2.30pm-3.30pm Tuesday according to the Activity sheet.

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12 Why did Kate receive a 'flurry' of phone calls (between 10.16pm and 10.27pm) in the 15 minutes prior to Mrs Fenn hearing the crying Was she at the tapas as she claims they did not arrive back until 11.00pm?

13 Why did Kate make (unusual) very early morning calls to her friend (Amanda, her husband is a pathologist) on Wednesday morning?

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14 Why did Najoua the quiz mistress claim that no-one (including Gerry) left the table during the time she was there (9.00pm-9.50pm?) and she does not recall seeing Kate or David Payne at the table. Just an empty place setting.

15 Why did Catriona claim to have seem Jane and David at the beach when she was at the mini sail. Why would she have known David?

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16 Where are the pictures of Ella taken at the mini sail and why (with only a few children) was Madeleine not in the picture.

17 Did Catriona take the children to the mini sail alone? Why is there no statement from the other nannies to say they went?

18 Why did the police not interview Alice Stanley and Chris Unsworth, the mini sail instructors?

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19 Why is there not one credible sighting of Madeleine after Sunday lunchtime when she was seen by the cleaner's daughter leaving the apartment for lunch at the Paynes?

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20 Why did Kate claim the shutters were broken on Sunday and the maintenance fixed them on Monday when records shows it was Tuesday. Why did they need to show her how to use the washing machine?

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21 Why did the cleaner claim there was a cot in the parents bedroom on Wednesday morning and both Gerry and Kate denied it was there?

22 Why did Madeleine's bed not show signs of being used, when it was made up by the cleaner on Wednesday morning and should have been slept in Wednesday night as well as Thursday evening? (the other bed was messy)

23 Why did the pictures from the apartment show a (relatively) normal amount of clothes left around when the cleaners daughter said that her mother had mentioned to her about the mess of their apartment (indicating something abnormal).

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24 Why did Matthew Oldfield claim to have been sick because of what he had eaten on the plane, and yet suggested that Rachael's sickness on Wednesday may have been the same as his.

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25 Why is there very little information regarding the week from David Payne's statements?

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26 Why did the police question Fiona about the time after the Paraiso vist and then push her to admit that she didn't know what David was doing between 6.00pm and 7.00pm?

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27 Why did David claim to have arrived back at the apartment approx 8.00pm when Fiona claims he was there at 7.10 (while he was 'supposedly' playing tennis at the Mens Social')

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28 Why did Kate claim that David didn't enter the apartment when David claims to have entered and described the children at length?

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29 Why did Rachael claim that Ella may have been given a bath at their apartment on Thursday evening?

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30 Why was there a lot of 'avoidance of specifics' and 'days rolled over' in the statements?

There is more, but thats all for now...

Food for thought? (especially considering most of it is earlier than 5.30pm May 3rd)

(Message edited by TinLizzy On 12/31/2010 7:56 AM)

by Guest 29.06.11 12:12

Ongoing questions pertaining to the crèche sheets:

1. Why did so many of the children’s entries give incorrect names and have to be corrected/crossed out?

2. Why did the nanny for Madeleine’s group say that separate daily sheets were used for am and pm, yet only one combined sheet was given to the PJ?

3. Why did this nanny also state that all of the children were given identity bracelets, yet none of them are seen wearing any?

4. What was the purpose of this nanny writing in some of the entries “Cat nanny”?

5. Stephen Carpenter claimed his daughter was in Madeleine’s group, but the crèche sheets do not support this.

by ROSA 30.06.11 5:50

On the morning of April 28th, Madeleine, aged 3, goes to Leicestershire airport to board a flight for Faro, accompanied by her parents, Gerald McCann and Kate Healy, both 39, doctors, living in Rothley, England, and by her brother and sister, Amelie and Sean, twins aged 2. The family is taking a short holiday - one week - until the following Saturday, May 5th. Madeleine seems at the same time happy and anxious. In Faro, where she arrives at around 2pm, she boards the minibus provided for tourists by the tour operator, to travel the 70 kilometres that separate her from her destination: the Ocean Club holiday complex at Vila da Luz, not far from the town of Lagos. The McCanns are traveling in the company of the Payne family, composed of David Payne (41) and his wife Fiona (35), doctors, their daughters Lilly and Scarlett (aged 2 and 1 respectively) and Diana Webster, aged 63, credit manager, Fiona's mother. One hour earlier, at around 1pm, the other members of the group of holidaymakers had arrived from London: the Oldfield couple - Matthew Oldfield (38), doctor, Rachael Mampilly (37) human resources manager, and their daughter Grace (19 months) - as well as the O'Brien couple - Russell O'Brien (37), doctor, Jane Tanner (36) marketing manager, and their daughters Ella and Evie (aged 3 and 1 respectively) David Payne is the organiser of the trip. These couples have spent their holidays together for several years. In January 2005, while Kate was pregnant with the twins, they stayed for a week in Lanzarote, an island in the Canaries. In September 2003, the McCanns and their friends Matthew Oldfield, Rachael Mampilly, Russell O'Brien and Jane Tanner spent a week in Umbria in Italy, where they went to attend David and Fiona Payne's wedding. In September 2005, Gerald, Kate and their daughter Madeleine, then aged 2 years and 4 months, went to Majorca, in Spain, for a few days of relaxation with the Payne's and other friends. On their arrival at the Ocean Club, the McCanns are allocated apartment 5A, on the ground floor of one of the apartment blocks, the back of which looks over the swimming pool, the tennis court and the Tapas restaurant. This apartment is on the corner of the building with a public road running alongside. The other couples are accommodated in apartments 5H (Payne family), 5D (O'Brien family), and 5B (Oldfield family); 5B adjoins 5A and is close to 5D. Except for 5H, on the first floor, they're all on the ground floor.

by Bebootje 30.06.11 9:53

On april 28 in the minibus Gerry was very happy going on vacation.

by pauline 30.06.11 10:01

Bebootje wrote:On april 28 in the minibus Gerry was very happy going on vacation.

Travelling with kids is very tiring. I know having travelled a lot with mine. Particularly when you add in delayed planes, delays in getting off, all the trolleys taken and nice things like that.

I don't think a parent looking grumpy towards the end of the outgoing journey is in itself significant. I can remember holidays when I wasn't smiling too at that stage.

by Guest 30.06.11 13:39

I'm glad that this footage has cropped up again as, though it's been discussed before, the oddities relating to it haven't been resolved. Apart from a odd movement of Madeleine's right leg she is strangely immobile (as is the girl to the right) though the twins on the left look perfectly normal and active. What do other posters think of it?

by Guest 30.06.11 16:34

The different creche groups explained

Mini club (3-5 yrs)

Supervisor Lyndsy Johnson, then Amy Tierney

1^st group Cat Baker (MM & E**a O’Brien)

2^nd group Emma Wilding

Toddler club 1 (12m-23m) Shinead Vine, Jacqueline Williams, Leanne Wagstaff

2 sub groups, each group having 3 children each

Toddler club 2 (24m-3 yrs) Stacy Portz, Shinead Vine, Sarah Williamson, Susan Owen (AM & SM)

Baby club (3- 11 months)

Supervisor Lyndsay Johnson, then Amy Tierney

Charlotte Pennington, Lynne Fretter

3 sub groups, each group having 2 babies each

by Guest 30.06.11 16:42

David Payne tries very hard to change the subject when asked about the crèche:

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1485 "To at least get the first day out the way.”
Reply "Yeah, we, I mean the one thing that we, me and Fiona were quite keen on would be to there was, on the water sports side of things. We were keen to put the kids into the crèche for the morning, we were gonna look, the, ours tended to sleep during the afternoon so on the, again we’d have perhaps gone down to the water.”

1485 "What time would you have taken them to the crèche?”
Reply "I mean well L*** and S*****t, being the different age groups, were in different places and S*****t was down by the actual reception at the Ocean Club and S*****t, err L*** was up at the Tapas bar. So generally Fi would take S******t after breakfast which we did often have. Again we stayed on for four weeks unfortunately after and we had breakfast in the apartment and it just blurs.”

by Guest 30.06.11 16:47

Fiona states “they were all booked in”, but fails to mention when and by who.

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“Yeah, we arrived, at the sort of main reception area, got everybody out, I think the men went in to do the actual booking-in, I remember just standing out with Kate outside with all the baggage and the children, so it’s either both Dave and Gerry or just Dave went in and, and booked us all in. then we had to wait for the sort of MARK WARNER bus to pick up and take us to the apartments, there was a bit of a wait there, about fifteen minutes or so and then, yeah, a chap came with a minibus and we all sort of piled in with all the luggage and he took us to the apartments.

So from there on, well we didn’t really think much more, more about it really, it seemed to be a, our routine, we all had our own sort of fixed routine from quite early on and not, not everybody’s was the same, but, generally, everybody, but Kate and Gerry and their children, sort of would go to the Millennium for breakfast, for a buffet breakfast, we’d all be at slightly different times, but, generally, you’d see someone else there in the morning for breakfast. All the kids were booked into their relevant kids clubs, S*****t was the only one that was in the baby crèche and that was kind of next door to where Madeleine and E**a were in the sort of older kids club and that was near the main reception”.

by ROSA 30.06.11 21:12

THE ROUTINE IS ESTABLISHED Sunday April 29th On the morning of Sunday April 29th, at around 8.40am, the McCann couple and their children again walk the 2 kilometres that separate them from the Millenium to have breakfast. Then, the children are entrusted to the play leaders - Madeleine to the daycare centre in the building that houses the main reception of the tourist complex, while Sean and Amelie stay at the playgroup, near the Tapas restaurant, that takes the youngest children. At around 12.30pm, the parents come and fetch them for lunch, play with them sometimes in the swimming pool or in the play area, then, at around 2.30pm, take them back to the play leaders, with whom they stay until 5.30pm. Sometimes the children have dinner with them.

by AskTheDogsSandra 30.06.11 21:15

ROSA wrote: THE ROUTINE IS ESTABLISHED Sunday April 29th On the morning of Sunday April 29th

Wasn't that their first full day? Routine estabished already?

thinking

by ROSA 30.06.11 21:23

i hope so

by Gillyspot 30.06.11 21:27

Marian wrote:I'm glad that this footage has cropped up again as, though it's been discussed before, the oddities relating to it haven't been resolved. Apart from a odd movement of Madeleine's right leg she is strangely immobile (as is the girl to the right) though the twins on the left look perfectly normal and active. What do other posters think of it?

I would imagine they have been given plenty of Calpol to calm them down. Seems to be the drug of choice by the Mccanns (or perhaps the abductor got in an extra early dose)