Unterdenteppichgekehrt: Sedation

by **Jill Havern** 05.09.18 9:04

Sedation

Freitag, 28. April 2017

From the rogatory interview of Fiona Payne:

'No, and that was the other thing, she kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn't, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn't, you know, so much as blink'.

From the rogatory interview of Dianne Webster:

What did I see? Well Kate and Gerry, Gerry was absolutely, absolutely distraught, absolute, you know, I mean I’ve never heard a man make the noises he made, err and Kate, Kate was just err you can’t, you just can’t put into words how they were I mean they were just, I remember I went through into the room where err where Madeleine was sleeping and err and she said you know, somebody, you know, she’s been taken because she said that the shutters and that had been open, the window open. Err the twins were still asleep in the cot and I, with all the noise going on I don’t know how they slept through it which makes me think there was, they must have been err drugged with something.”

From the statement of Silvia Batista:

At a certain time, after the arrival of the PJ elements, the parents removed the twins from the beds in which they were still sleeping and took them to the first floor flat.

From a report by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida to the Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation:

Let's see: the media forwarded the hypothesis that the children could have been sedated to be kept asleep and allow some rest to the parents.

Distant in time Kate's father, the grandfather of the minor, Brian Healy, admits to the press that Kate could have administered some medication to the little girl, Calpol, to help the child (children'') to sleep, contrary to what his daughter Kate had stated.

Kate, through the PJ inspector that acted as 'liaison' with the family asked why samples weren't taken from the twins in order to test that hypothesis. She knew well enough at that time, more than 3 months later, that such exam would be inviable.

She went further and said that we ' the investigation ' should verify that the kidnapper had sedated Madeleine, to accomplish the action and he had also sedated the twins 'to consummate the act' however she didn't say that at the right moment.

From Service information from Ricardo Paiva to Goncalo Amaralom Ricardo Paivafrom Ricardo Paiva

Strangely, Kate also made several requests, three months after the disappearance of Madeleine, that the police should take blood, hair and nail tests of Madeleine's twin siblings, because, as she said, she remembered that on the day of Madeleine's disappearance, in spite of all the commotion and noise made by the authorities and other persons who were looking for Madeleine in apartment 5A of the OC, the twins never woke up, having been transported to another apartment, they remained asleep, due to which she now presumes that they were under the effect of some sedative drug that a presumed abductor had administered to the three children in order to be able to abduct Madeleine, a situation which Kate refers to being possible according to what she read in a criminal investigation manual given to her by the British authorities, that would have been the procedure of the abductor in the real case involving abduction, rape and murder of the girl.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From the above we can be pretty certain that the twins had been sedated that night. Police, staff, friends and even the McCanns got this impression.

The question is who sedated them and why.

A burglar entering the apartment looking for valuables and getting disturbed by three toddlers would not have the means nor the time to sedate three children only to leave without any valuables. A completely implausible theory.

An abductor who had specifically chosen to take Madeleine and not her siblings, which in itself seems to be illogical, might have sedated her to keep her quiet for the duration of the abduction but why take the risk and time to sedate the twins as well? All in a short timeframe with the risk of the parents entering any time for checks. A possible but rather implausible theory. Even if Kate McCann found this theory in some manual given to her by British authorities.

The other theory, which the Portuguese police have followed, is that it was the parents who had sedated all three children every night in order to be able to dine at the tapas restaurant without interruption.

Given their professions as doctors and the general impression of well cared for children plus the fact that at least Madeleine was awake and crying for more than an hour on Tuesday night, according to the statement by their neighbour Mrs. Fenn, this, at least to me, seems implausible as well.

Especially the twins, who had been at the creche all day without sleeping in the afternoon at just over 2 years of age, would not have needed any sedation to fall asleep properly at night after baths. Even IF Madeleine had been given something to sleep after Tuesday night, I doubt this was the case for the twins.

Which leads us to the fourth reason why they might have been sedated that Thursday night. It might have been essential to avoid them waking up during that night because it was already anticipated that this night would be different and that they were spared the possible sighting the Smith family encountered later that night.

Four theories regarding sedation....

From the rogatory interview of Fiona Payne:

'No, and that was the other thing, she kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn't, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn't, you know, so much as blink'.

From the rogatory interview of Dianne Webster:

What did I see? Well Kate and Gerry, Gerry was absolutely, absolutely distraught, absolute, you know, I mean I’ve never heard a man make the noises he made, err and Kate, Kate was just err you can’t, you just can’t put into words how they were I mean they were just, I remember I went through into the room where err where Madeleine was sleeping and err and she said you know, somebody, you know, she’s been taken because she said that the shutters and that had been open, the window open. Err the twins were still asleep in the cot and I, with all the noise going on I don’t know how they slept through it which makes me think there was, they must have been err drugged with something.”

From the statement of Silvia Batista:

At a certain time, after the arrival of the PJ elements, the parents removed the twins from the beds in which they were still sleeping and took them to the first floor flat.

From a report by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida to the Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation:

Let's see: the media forwarded the hypothesis that the children could have been sedated to be kept asleep and allow some rest to the parents.

Distant in time Kate's father, the grandfather of the minor, Brian Healy, admits to the press that Kate could have administered some medication to the little girl, Calpol, to help the child (children'') to sleep, contrary to what his daughter Kate had stated.

Kate, through the PJ inspector that acted as 'liaison' with the family asked why samples weren't taken from the twins in order to test that hypothesis. She knew well enough at that time, more than 3 months later, that such exam would be inviable.

She went further and said that we ' the investigation ' should verify that the kidnapper had sedated Madeleine, to accomplish the action and he had also sedated the twins 'to consummate the act' however she didn't say that at the right moment.

From Service information from Ricardo Paiva to Goncalo Amaralom Ricardo Paivafrom Ricardo Paiva

Strangely, Kate also made several requests, three months after the disappearance of Madeleine, that the police should take blood, hair and nail tests of Madeleine's twin siblings, because, as she said, she remembered that on the day of Madeleine's disappearance, in spite of all the commotion and noise made by the authorities and other persons who were looking for Madeleine in apartment 5A of the OC, the twins never woke up, having been transported to another apartment, they remained asleep, due to which she now presumes that they were under the effect of some sedative drug that a presumed abductor had administered to the three children in order to be able to abduct Madeleine, a situation which Kate refers to being possible according to what she read in a criminal investigation manual given to her by the British authorities, that would have been the procedure of the abductor in the real case involving abduction, rape and murder of the girl.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From the above we can be pretty certain that the twins had been sedated that night. Police, staff, friends and even the McCanns got this impression.

The question is who sedated them and why.

A burglar entering the apartment looking for valuables and getting disturbed by three toddlers would not have the means nor the time to sedate three children only to leave without any valuables. A completely implausible theory.

An abductor who had specifically chosen to take Madeleine and not her siblings, which in itself seems to be illogical, might have sedated her to keep her quiet for the duration of the abduction but why take the risk and time to sedate the twins as well? All in a short timeframe with the risk of the parents entering any time for checks. A possible but rather implausible theory. Even if Kate McCann found this theory in some manual given to her by British authorities.

The other theory, which the Portuguese police have followed, is that it was the parents who had sedated all three children every night in order to be able to dine at the tapas restaurant without interruption.

Given their professions as doctors and the general impression of well cared for children plus the fact that at least Madeleine was awake and crying for more than an hour on Tuesday night, according to the statement by their neighbour Mrs. Fenn, this, at least to me, seems implausible as well.

Especially the twins, who had been at the creche all day without sleeping in the afternoon at just over 2 years of age, would not have needed any sedation to fall asleep properly at night after baths. Even IF Madeleine had been given something to sleep after Tuesday night, I doubt this was the case for the twins.

Which leads us to the fourth reason why they might have been sedated that Thursday night. It might have been essential to avoid them waking up during that night because it was already anticipated that this night would be different and that they were spared the possible sighting the Smith family encountered later that night.

Four theories regarding sedation....

http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.com/2017/04/sedation.html

by Jillg303 05.07.20 21:19

Is the blog UNTERDENTEPPICHGEHRT still available? There was some very interesting commentary and observations there and I would really appreciate any information about how to access the blog. Thankyou
jillgiannotta@icloud.com

by Guest 05.07.20 22:18

Jillg303 wrote:Is the blog UNTERDENTEPPICHGEHRT still available? There was some very interesting commentary and observations there and I would really appreciate any information about how to access the blog. Thankyou
jillgiannotta@icloud.com

The blog is now by invitation only I believe. To access you need to contact the blog owner to ask permission to join. thumbsup

by Jillg303 05.07.20 22:56

Do you know who I would need to contact please? Thanks

by Guest 05.07.20 23:04

Jillg303 wrote:Do you know who I would need to contact please? Thanks

Off the top of my head no, I can't remember who is behind the blog.

I'll get back to you later.

by **Jill Havern** 05.07.20 23:09

Her name is Johanna Renstein, but I don't know how to contact her...although I'm sure someone on the Maddie Case Files forum would know.

by **Tony Bennett** 05.07.20 23:40

Interesting though Johanna Renstein's theory may be, she is stuck, like Goncalo Amaral, on the death of Madeleine after 6pm on the Thursday.

She believes in the validity of the highly dubious 'Smithman' sighting and believes Mrs Fenn really did hear Madeleine crying ever more loudly for 75 continuous minutes on the Tuesday.

She also ignores the clear evidence the Last Photo was taken Sunday and so much more evidence that Madeleine may have suffered a serious event much earlier in the week.

Also IIRC her favoured theory was very convoluted.

It is of course very possible that Madeleine was heavily sedated on Sunday for some reason.

by Guest 06.07.20 7:54

They wouldn't want the twins waking up during the "abduction" though, so sedation is still a possibility.

by Jillg303 06.07.20 22:30

Tony Bennett, I don’t believe Johanna is wedded to the notion of a death on May 3rd. The reason I am interested in Johanna’s blog is that independently we came to the conclusion that Dianne Webster was not part of the staging of an abduction.

Some of DW’s responses actually inculpate the McCanns, such as the topic under review- sedation. Dianne bangs on and on about the twins not waking up, Gerry not having been in the apartment when she went to 5A.If we probe her statements in Luz carefully, the lies of the others just fall away. ( didn’t encounter Oldfield, told to wait in Tapas away from the melee in 5A)

IMO she was needed as an older and more distanced observer, and so everything that took place on the day of the 3rd was to secure this status, and anyway she may not have kept the faith, so it was too risky to implicate her.

So instead, while the McCanns presumably cleaned the apartment ready for the inevitable police scrutiny, Dianne had to be kept out of the way, and taken to places where she would not have expected to encounter the McCanns. Changes of routine are big red flags, of course, and the visit to the beach and high tea in the cafe were designed to calm any minor suspicion of where is Madeleine? Kate even managed a beach run during which she made sure she was seen by the group.

Other significant changes that day are the absence of the McCanns for lunch in the Payne apartment, and absence of the children in the play area. To shore up the existence of Madeleine during the early evening of the 3rd we have the ridiculous portrait of an idealised pastiche of the three angels in the apartment. Of course this visit never took place, and was omitted from Payne’s first interview. But it had to be established that a live Madeleine was in her apartment in order for the abduction scam to work.

My apologies if you have already discussed DW and the 3rd. This is my first proper post. So far I have just read and learned so much. Thankyou for reading.

by **Silentscope** 14.07.20 13:06

It’s just a shame that no one took the twins straight into Hospital for a check up, if they wondered why they weren’t waking up with the noise.

Then at least we would have known straight away then why.

by **Silentscope** 19.08.20 20:18

Relative further information can be found at www.starship.org.nz

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjR_rCx76frAhWtQhUIHdn9A48QFjAMegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.starship.org.nz%2Fguidelines%2Fparacetamol-poisoning%2F&usg=AOvVaw1MSIKRZjz1dCVw78UC-SZi

by **Silentscope** 21.08.20 15:49

In relation to the accidental overdose of sedative theory the following info was available for the “Calpol night” product discontinued in 2009.
Buildup to dangerous levels in a cumulative overdose vary from 1-3 days.
Source: Calpol night
It is thought paracetamol reduces fever by affecting an area of the brain that regulates our body temperature (the hypothalamic heat-regulating center).
Diphenhydramine is a type of medicine called a sedating antihistamine. It enters the brain in sufficient quantities to cause drowsiness.
Diphenhydramine drys nasal secretions, by stopping a natural body chemical called histamine from binding to its receptors. Histamine is a chemical produced naturally by the body that has many effects, including the production of allergic symptoms, such as a runny nose. Blocking histamine receptors prevents the actions of histamine, which reduces the production of mucus in the nose.
The combination of active ingredients in this medicine is useful for relieving mild to moderate pain such as teething pain, headaches and sore throat, and for relieving the symptoms of feverish colds and flu in children. The relief from symptoms and the mild sedative effect caused by the medicine can also be helpful for aiding restful sleep.

Warning!

March 2009: Over-the-counter cough and cold medicines for children have recently been under review in the UK. New advice is that several cough and cold medicines, including this one, are no longer recommended for children under six years of age. This is because there is no evidence that they work in this age group, and they can potentially cause side effects such as allergic reactions, effects on sleep or hallucinations. The packaging and leaflets for cough and cold medicines will be updated over the next year to reflect this information. When the newly labelled products become available they will only be sold from pharmacies, where advice on using the medicines safely can be given. Products with old labelling that give doses for children under six won't be immediately withdrawn from sale, because there are no immediate safety issues with them and they have been in wide use for decades. However, you should no longer give these medicines to children under six. The new recommendations are part of a long-term package of measures that are being phased in to improve the safe use of cough and cold medicines in children under 12 years of age. If you have just given this medicine to a child under six there is no need to worry, provided they were given the dose recommended on the bottle, but you shouldn't use this medicine for them in the future. Children aged 6 to 12 years can still be given this medicine, because the risk of side effects is reduced in older children as they weigh more, get fewer colds and can also tell you if the medicine is doing them any good. For more advice talk to your pharmacist.
The recommended dose of this medicine varies depending on the age of your child. Carefully follow the dosage instructions provided with this medicine. Do not exceed the recommended dose. The medicine should be administered carefully using the spoon or measuring device supplied to ensure the child does not receive more than the maximum dose.
This medicine must not be given with any other cough and cold remedies or paracetamol containing products. Many over-the-counter painkillers and cold and flu remedies contain paracetamol. It is important to check the ingredients of any medicines you buy without a prescription before giving them in combination with this medicine. Seek further advice from your pharmacist.
An overdose of paracetamol is dangerous and capable of causing serious damage to the liver and kidneys. You should never exceed the dose stated in the information leaflet supplied with the medicine. Immediate medical advice should be sought in the event of an overdose with this medicine, even if your child seems well, because of the risk of delayed, serious liver damage.
This medicine may cause drowsiness. If your child is affected they should avoid performing potentially hazardous activities such as riding a bike or climbing trees. Alcohol should be avoided.
If symptoms persist for more than three days consult your doctor.

by **Silentscope** 21.08.20 19:41

The Police and Press in this case presented below show exactly the same sort of Politically motivated patterns as in Madeleines case.

June 23 2014 02:14 AM

[url=https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?text=%27Maddie McCann police took our baby because we gave her Calpol%27 - Belfast couple%27s Portugal holiday hell&url=https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/maddie-mccann-police-took-our-baby-because-we-gave-her-calpol-belfast-couples-portugal-holiday-hell-30375896.html][/url]

A Belfast couple whose daughter was seized by cops in Portugal because they gave her Calpol have opened up about their holiday hell after being told by police: “We don’t want another Madeleine McCann.”
Lee-Anne O’Donoghue, her partner James Moreland and their 18-month-old baby Eireann should have been making happy memories on their first family holiday together.
But today they reveal how their dreams turned to a nightmare when hotel staff reported them to police for giving little Eireann, who was teething, some Calpol — the popular infants’ medicine sold in supermarkets across the UK.
Suddenly James and Lee-Anne found themselves headline news in Portugal and the UK, wrongly accused of drugging their daughter and being too drunk to care for her. Cops even alleged that the couple had thrown the tot from an eighth floor balcony into a swimming pool.
In their first full interview since returning home the couple spoke to Sunday Life to tell the story of their horrific ordeal.
Lee-Anne explained her family had been staying at the Hotel Paraiso in Albufeira — 40 miles from Praia da Luz where Madeleine vanished in 2007 — as part of a week-long package trip.
Following a day out with friends, they returned to their hotel when Lee-Anne noticed Eireann was having teething pain and gave her some Calpol, which is commonly used for pain relief and to soothe fever.
After seeing her give the medicine to her child, hotel staff called the police, telling her that “Calpol was illegal in Portugal”.
Lee-Anne said: “I didn’t know what was going on but next thing the police were there and they had seized the Calpol. They said I was drugging Eireann.
“They said they didn’t want another tragedy like Madeleine McCann.
“More people started to arrive but no-one spoke English, we had no idea what was happening and all I wanted was to put Eireann into her wee cot to sleep.”
Portuguese police made Lee-Anne go with them to hospital with Eireann because they wanted to have her drugs tested.
“I was hysterical,” she said.
“On the way to the hospital in the ambulance I just sat holding her, crying my eyes out the whole time.
“A police car was behind us, one was in front of us, but I still thought everything would be fine because I knew I had done nothing wrong.
“I know we’re good parents and we love Eireann so much.”
But once they arrived at hospital, things took a sinister turn.
“As soon as I went in they were stripping and checking her, she learned to walk while we were away and she had a red mark on her knee from crawling.
“The doctor asked me, ‘You smack your daughter? You scrab your daughter?’
“That child is my world, I couldn’t believe what I was being accused of.”
When doctors arrived with needles to take blood, Lee-Anne became frantic.
“I was squealing because when she was three-months-old Eireann had suspected meningitis and they couldn’t get a vein, we had a terrible experience with needles and I didn’t want her to go through that again,” she said.
“But they trailed me away from my daughter into a room and handcuffed me.
“When I went to get up they would put their hands on my forehead and fling me back to the ground.
“I was so frantic, Eireann didn’t know anybody and no-one spoke English.
“They had me in a room for an hour and I have no idea what they were doing to her.
“I gave no permission to inject her but apparently you don’t have to in Portugal — they can do what they want to your child.”
Meanwhile, James had arrived at the hospital to find an armed police guard outside who refused to let him enter.
“I got angry so they got me down on the ground and were punching and kicking me,” he said.
“They handcuffed me, lifted me by my hands and threw me into the back of the police car — not on the seat, in the footwell.”
James was left with cuts and bruises in the struggle.
Lee-Anne was called to go outside to calm James down, but in the chaos police had taken his mobile phone and wallet.
The pair were told they had to leave Eireann in hospital overnight because her test results weren't back yet and go back to the hotel, but police left them to make the 40 minute journey themselves.
“We went to pay for the taxi, James got his wallet out and there wasn’t a penny in it.
“€745 was gone — it was all the holiday money we had left,” Lee-Anne said.
“At the hotel we called the police to report the money stolen, they did come out but they wouldn’t take a statement and denied they had taken it.”
Lee-Anne broke down as she told how a kind fellow Northern Ireland holiday maker lent them enough cash to pay for their taxi to the hospital the next day.
“She was our angel,” she said.
The next day at the hospital, James and Lee-Anne were told by Portuguese social services that Eireann’s test results showed she had not been drugged.
Lee-Anne thought the nightmare was coming to an end, but then police submitted a surreal report claiming that both Lee-Anne and James had been too intoxicated to look after their baby.
She said: “When they said I was drunk I’d had three cocktails.
“I don’t usually drink at home but we were on holiday, I’d had three drinks the entire day.”
They also alleged that Lee-Anne had thrown Eireann from an eighth floor balcony into a pool, even though their room was nowhere near the pool and looked out onto a carpark.
“When the hospital said we hadn’t drugged her police had to change their story about why they had taken Eireann off us — they had to justify themselves,” she said.
“If I threw Eireann from eight floors anywhere she would be dead.
“It was just unreal, totally mad.”
As investigations continued the family had to spend another night in hospital but after they were finally cleared to leave the next day they realised dozens of reporters had set up camp outside.
Lee-Anne said: “We were all over the Portuguese papers, on every TV channel and in every story we were linked to Madeleine McCann.
“But every story was different, in one they even said I had hit Eireann’s head against a wall.
“It was horrific.”
For their own safety, the family was held at the hospital which went into lockdown.
But determined to leave with baby Eireann, they were smuggled out with blankets over their heads.
Lee-Anne said: “We’re sure the police tipped off the press.
“One police officer who was nice, and he was the only one, told us they had been so heavy-handed because of Madeleine McCann.
“He said they had to be seen to have a zero-tolerance approach when it came to British holiday makers, he said it was political policing.”
After battling through another media frenzy at the airport, James, Lee-Anne, and Eireann were finally able to board a flight back to Belfast.
“When the flight took off it was like someone was giving me my child all over again,” Lee-Anne said.
But while they’re both delighted to be home with their daughter, they are still dealing with their Portuguese nightmare and can’t even look at their holiday snaps because of the bad memories.
Social services have visited the couple but have said they have absolutely no concerns about Eireann’s wellbeing.
Despite that relief, both James and Lee-Anne have suffered nightmares and James has collapsed after developing heart palpitations.
His GP has attributed this to the stress he’s suffered in the past few weeks.
James is so scarred by their experience that he says he’ll never get on an aeroplane to travel again.
Lee-Anne added: “Eireann is such a good child and we just wanted to give her a great holiday but it really was the holiday from hell.
“I can’t wait until it’s a distant memory.”

by **Silentscope** 02.09.20 17:18

Let's see:

The media forwarded the hypothesis that the children could have been sedated to be kept asleep and allow some rest to the parents.

Distant in time Kate's father, the grandfather of the minor, Brian Healy, admits to the press that Kate could have administered some medication to the little girl, Calpol, to help the child (children'') to sleep, contrary to what his daughter Kate had stated.

Kate, through the PJ inspector that acted as 'liaison' with the family [NOTE: that is Ricardo Paiva], asked why samples weren't taken from the twins in order to test that hypothesis.

She knew well enough at that time, more than 3 months later, that such exam would be inviable.

She went further and said that we ' the investigation ' should verify that the kidnapper had sedated Madeleine, to accomplish the action and he had also sedated the twins 'to consummate the act' however she didn't say that at the right moment.

And we know that the sedatives have timings to act and timings to be expelled, that varies between six and 200 hours.

The medical knowledge of the McCann is enough to know such, even if their professional activity never passed by performing toxicology exams.

by Milo 05.09.20 7:44

KM had (still has) the happy knack of saying something ahead of a predicted event or statement. In this case she knew that the sedation theory was gaining ground. She retrofitted to the "swoosh" night when she was observed to be checking the breathing of the twins. If she had sedated them she really needed to be sure they were OK. If she hadn't sedated them then it was an act (or she told one of the TAPAs - I forget who mentioned it) to say that she was checking.

My convoluted story is that she could then at a later date, a date after any tests would be too late to show drugs, in their system (hair follicles), challenge the police for not having checked on the presence of drugs. Which is what happened. Hence her dramatic recounting in her Bewk that great big wads of her hair were removed as they tugged to get hair follicles. The drama of the Kate-goes-bald story stayed with some people as she had planned.

The scenario of sedation was not helped by those who were thinking of chloroform - which was not an option because its smell would have lingered.

by **Silentscope** 05.09.20 13:30

@Milo

Hence her dramatic recounting in her Bewk that great big wads of her hair were removed as they tugged to get hair follicles. The drama of the Kate-goes-bald story stayed with some people as she had planned.

I was not aware of this “Bewk” - can you send me a link?
Thank you.