Maurice Boland Show: Tony Bennett discusses the Madeleine McCann case

Tony Bennett discussing the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and the publication of his booklet concerning the case on Talk Radio Europe with Maurice Boland - 2009.

Transcription

Maurice Boland : Right, we’re going to go straight into our next guest, errm, interesting this, it certainly is. My guest is (author of) a new book entitled “What really happened to Madeleine McCann? – 60 reasons which suggest that she was not abducted”. The booklet was sent to 646 MPs last week. Madeleine Foundation was set up in January 2008, to try to ensure that the right lessons were learned from the Madeleine disappearance. Last year Tony, who is my next guest, who is a qualified social worker and a solicitor, wrote a book analysing the facts surrounding the death of Stuart Lubbock at the home of Michael Barrymore. I think he was on the show, I’m not sure whether he was. We’ll find out more when we say good evening and welcome to Spain, Tony.

Tony Bennett : Yes, good evening

Maurice Boland: I think, did you join me on the Michael Barrymore story, I think you did last year sometime.

Tony Bennett : It wasn’t wasn’t me who joined you. I’m intensely interested in that, but, err, it wasn’t me that, err, was on the show, no.

Maurice Boland: No, ok. Right, let’s go into this err booklet. First of all, this is a free booklet.

Tony Bennett : No it’s not free, actually, no.

Maurice Boland: Oh, I thought it was sent to 646…

Tony Bennett : Yeh, err, well, errm, the book retails at £3 including postage in the UK.

Maurice Boland: Ok, ok.

Tony Bennett : But the reason it was sent for free to the MPs was simply because, errm, a suggestion was made by a member of the public that it be sent to all MPs and, we had then, within a couple of days, through the internet, errm, sixty odd people donated ten, twenty, thirty pounds which paid for the booklet to go to all of the MPs with postage, so, it was paid for by members of the public wanting their MPs to read this booklet.

Maurice Boland: But then, can I ask you Tony, is this just another money-making scheme on this, err, amazing story?

Tony Bennett : Right, I, I’ve been asked that many times ..

Maurice Boland: Well, I’m asking you now..

Tony Bennett : Yeh, let me just explain that the, the retail price of the book is £3 including postage, which means that we send it out for something like £2.30 or so.

Maurice Boland : Hm hm.

Tony Bennett : The booklet is costed only to cover costs. Err, err, neither I nor any member of the Foundation has made a, a penny. In fact, to get the booklet produced at all, err, we had to, errm, errm, pay the printer from from our own, err, resources and, err, it, the whole thing is budgeted on, on covering our costs only.

Maurice Boland: Ok, so we cleared that up. It is a booklet – let me explain to people, this is not a book, it’s a booklet – and it’s very much a booklet. Can I ask you this also, is the question I want to ask is just one word: why?

Tony Bennett : Err, because this side of the story was not being, errm, err, explained in, in the British press, it was being suppressed, that the, the various reasons that I come up with, the various facts that I come up with, were not being, err, printed or discussed in the British press and that’s partly because, as you know, there have been three enormous libel awards made to the McCanns, to Robert Murat and to the Tapas 7 group of friends, which, err, perhaps understandably, have restrained the British press from giving, shall we say, these reasons which point away from an, an abduction and towards something else.

Maurice Boland: Have you been approached by their lawyers?

Tony Bennett : Err, not at all. Err, let me just explain that, back in October when our website went live, there was a statement in the press from the McCanns’ spokesman, Clarence Mitchell, that the book, or the proposed book was libellous and that our site was libellous. Err, I would just like to inform your listeners that, on October 27th last year, I wrote to, err, Clarence Mitchell, their spokesman, I wrote to the McCanns themselves and I wrote to three of their lawyers offering to correct any statement on our website that they could prove to be incorrect and offering to change any statement in the proposed booklet, again if they could substantiate that it was incorrect, Five months later, I’ve had no replies or acknowledgments to any of those five letters.

Maurice Boland: Ok. Let me ask you also your interest in the case itself. You were a lawyer, I don’t know if you still practice as a lawyer.

Tony Bennett : No, I’ve not practiced since 1999.

Maurice Boland: You’re a social, a qualified social worker…

Tony Bennett : Hm hm.

Maurice Boland : …tell me what your particular interest in this case is.

Tony Bennett : Well, err, in a sense, I haven’t got a particular interest in, err, I, I think there are thousands, hundreds of thousands of people who also share an intense interest in this mystery. So, err, in a sense, I’m just Joe Public who is intensely interested in this case as many others. But, I suppose, to answer your question more specifically, errm, I did spend a lot of time researching a, a book on the, errm, Stuart Lubbock/Michael Barrymore case and, errm, I was persuaded after studying all of the police files in that case that there had been a, a very clever cover-up, err, by the, errm, people present that evening and, err, to be honest, when I started to research the Madeleine McCann story, which was after they became suspects, errm, I began to see some of the very same features, errm, of a possible deliberate cover-up.

Maurice Boland: You see, from what I understand, we’ve, obviously when this story broke, err, and over the period of time up to now, this radio station and my show in particular, have covered certain stories and have had guests – we’ve had GMTV down here at one stage, when they thought very earlier on, that they thought that she was probably in Spain and they came down and we did a live broadcast from here about it. We’ve had the policeman who – I can’t remember his name now, the inspector who was brought down from representing Scotland Yard – he came on the show and he made a statement saying, number 1, that the suspects, the McCanns as being suspects, is a sort of a botched job by the Portuguese police. He alleged, they should have been made suspects immediately and not left for so long, because in all cases like this, the first people you clear…

Tony Bennett : Hm hm.

Maurice Boland : …out of the scenario, are the family themselves. And, by leaving it so long, it made the public think ‘Haha, they’ve found something!’, where in cases like this immediately the family are the first people, are the first suspects …

Tony Bennett :  Hm hm.

Maurice Bolland : … and the Portuguese police didn’t do that.

Tony Bennett : Well, I’m, I’m glad you made that point about the, the parents being the, err, always shall we say, the prime suspects and there are so many cases, in fact. Err, again I’ve researched which, errm, suggest that, err, when parents of very young children claim the child has been kidnapped from their own home, one has got to, obviously, be very suspicious of the parents. I think, err, Mr Boland, that probably the, errm, the intense media…

Maurice Boland: Do call me Maurice by the way.

Tony Bennett : …Maurice, sorry, ok, well, Maurice, I think the, errm, the intense media frenzy which, err,  burst on the scene in May probably made the, err, police role particularly difficult, particularly difficult against that background of the whole world searching for Madeleine to then suggest that the parents might be under suspicion. So I think what they did was, very carefully and meticulously, errm, build up pieces of evidence. Err, as you know, as your listeners will know, they brought over the cadaver dogs – the specially trained spaniels – to, errm, search the flat and the, and the car for evidence of a, a, a corpse having been in those locations, which they did find. Err, and, errm, in the end, errm, the evidence, err, amounted to sufficient for them to be made suspects and, of course – if I can just add to that – we have the very informative book by Gonçalo Amaral, the, errm, original senior investigating officer, who has explained in great detail – much greater than my book – errm, his basis for believing that Madeleine died in apartment 5A in Praia da Luz.

Maurice Boland: You see, I spoke to this inspector, I can’t, err, err, he was one of the high profile inspectors who went out from Scotland Yard to the case, and, a couple of things he told me were interesting. First of all, I put to him about the smell of death in the car, of Madeleine McCann in the boot of the car. He explained that to me by saying that the McCanns had taken her clothing, when they left that apartment, in the car and therefore there was traces of her scent, if you want, from the clothing. He also told me that the police dogs picked up her scent, leaving the – and this is his analysis of it – leaving the apartment to the supermarket. He reckons that her body is somewhere very within, err, the region of the apartments. He also said that the, the way that he saw it, she woke up, she got up and tried to go and see her mum and dad as a frightened kid will do, and walked out of the apartment and, instead of turning right, walked straight to where there’s a supermarket somewhere there and from there on her scent was, err, disa, disappeared, and he felt that someone had picked her up from there. And, that’s the way he saw it.

Tony Bennett : I, I think three, three basic, errm, points that you’ve made there, err, Maurice, and I’ll try, try and deal with them carefully. And let’s start with the, err, the scent that, err, one of the Portuguese dogs, in the early days, found of Madeleine going, as you quite rightly say, from the apartment to supermarket. Now, errm, as I understand it, and I’m open to correction, but as I understand it that could be an alive Madeleine or it could be a dead Madeleine. So that, yes, err, there was a scent that the dogs found and it stopped at the supermarket. And that’s all that we know on, on that. That doesn’t actually prove whether she was alive or dead. Errm, err, if we now come to the dogs’ evidence, let’s just, errm, briefly review that, because, these dogs, by the way with 100% record of, errm, successfully alerting to a corpse, are, are called in for a very specific reason and that is to locate where a corpse has been. And, if they find the scent of a corpse it can only be where a corpse has lain. And, also, as you, as you probably know, that corpse can only have been dead for about two hours or longer before that particular scent is available to the dogs. Now, let’s just review where that scent was found. It was found in the living room of the McCanns’ apartment; it was found in their bedroom, near the wardrobe; it was found on the veranda and it was found in the garden near the bottom of the steps; it was found on the key to the, err, Renault Scenic that they hired; it was found on the well of the car near the front door; it was also found on two separate items of Kate McCann’s clothing and on a red t-shirt which might have belonged to Madeleine or her younger brother, Sean, and of course it was found on the pink soft toy ‘cuddle cat’. Now, all of those things had to be in proximity with a corpse, and, errm, in direct, in direct proximity with a corpse, so, these stories about, errm, Kate’s clothes might have been in, for example, in contact with a, errm, a dead body in Leicestershire and so on, that’s far too remote. All of those items that I’ve mentioned, those ten items, had to be directly next to a corpse which had been dead for two hours.

Maurice Boland: Can I ask you, then, first of all, let’s look at the McCanns and the makeup as they are, err, people, both of them are doctors. I don’t think there’s any stories of them being in any way alcoholic, err, err, drug takers. They seem to be very grounded people, educated people. Err, they had three young children, they had a group of very loyal friends, they were on holiday. Everything normally points to, on holiday, good times unless that you’re some drunk yobbo and falling off hotel balconies after having a night binge drinking. I don’t think this is the case at all. Err, out of that scenario, where does murder come into it?

Tony Bennett : Well, I – let me just make it absolutely clear – I’ve never used the word ‘murder’ and I’ve never said the McCanns have killed Madeleine, I’ve never that. I go with, errm, Gonçalo Amaral’s belief that Madeleine died from some kind of accident, which he hasn’t explained, which, err, you know, which is as yet unexplained. Sorry, I’ve forgotten the original question now.

Maurice Boland : Well, look, we’re talking looking at, I’m looking at the McCanns because…

Tony Bennett :  Yes.

Maurice Boland : …most…

Tony Bennett :  Right.

Maurice Boland :  … most innuendos…

Tony Bennett : Yes.

Maurice Boland : … point to them.

Tony Bennett : Right, I’m going to leave all of those innuendos out, because they don’t part form parts of my book at all. But, what I think, err, I would like to, to stress is the, the evidence we do have of Madeleine crying for 75 minutes, heard by the neighbour Mrs Pamela Fenn. Now let’s leave aside all questions of the McCanns’ conduct, responsible doctors, fine, yes, out with friends, fine, got no problem with that at all. But, we have, factually on the record, Madeleine being heard crying for 75 minutes continually on Tuesday, May 1st. Now, that alone tell us that something is not quite right and it’s easy to, it’s easy to think of how many different things could happen to a child who’s unattended for, for that length of time.

Maurice Boland :  Hm hm.

Tony Bennett : And if that happened on a subsequent night, errm it’s, it’s possible all manner of things could have happened, for example, as I think Mr Amaral hints at, errm, she might well have had a fall. She might have been climbing, had a fall, cracked her head on the ceramic tiles – that is a possibility – but please, Maurice, I’ve never suggested murder, I’ve never suggested killing at all.

Maurice Boland : Ok.

Tony Bennett : No, no doubt, a tragic accident, but one, errm, for which I think the McCanns must be partly culpable.

Maurice Boland : Ok, ok, let’s just say it’s a tragic accident, for the sake of, of discussion at the moment.

Tony Bennett :  Hm hm.

Maurice Boland : Let’s then go back to my, err, my, err, observation of the McCanns. Doctors, err, sensible people, with friends – I put myself into that same, I’m not a doctor, I come from a medical background, but I’m, family, but I’m not a doctor – God forbid it should happen to someone in my family, a child, one of my children or my grandchildren, it should happen the first thing that a sensible person, even more so a doctor, would do, is immediately call on medical help. Err, not medical help, call on some sort of situation to try to put some, some… err, you know, pff, try to, try to neutralise the situation. Err, in this case, really what’s being said that, if she had died of, of an accident the body was disposed of. And these are not.. to me, it doesn’t, it doesn’t add up here.

Tony Bennett : Errm, I think possibly the word ‘panic’ might be one explanation.

Maurice Boland : Why should they panic?

Tony Bennett : Well…

Maurice Boland : They’re doctors.

Tony Bennett : Well, they’re doctors, and one particular reason why doctors might panic more than others is that, err, let’s, err, let’s assume that Madeleine did die from an accident when they were not in the flat, as one possibility. Let’s assume that as a possibility. Errm, they may have returned to find Madeleine dying or dead, and, err, concluded that in those circumstances, err, any autopsy on Madeleine might well help to prove that, errm, they, they had been negligent. For example, it might have, it might have shown that she was, she had been lying there or, or dead for sufficient time that it’s quite clear that the parents should have been there, should have been there looking after her. So, something of that nature, the fear of an autopsy and what it could do to their reputation as doctors…

Maurice Boland : Ok.

Tony Bennett : …might well have…

Maurice Boland : We have a call coming, do you mind fielding a call?

Tony Bennett : Not at all..

Maurice Boland : Good evening caller…

Mary : Good evening, it’s Mary, err, Maurice. Errm, I just have to say that this is entirely what I’ve been thinking, right from the very beginning…

Maurice Boland : Hm hm.

Mary : … because, as doctors, they were petrified of something, errm, that might come out of this death. And, and yes, it could have been an accident, but I think they’ve made a very big cover-up, and so I’m very very pleased that this man has written, errm, this booklet…

Maurice Boland : Ok.

Mary : …because I really feel that we should have thought of all this a lot earlier on. You never, ever, ever, leave your children.

Maurice Boland : Ok. Thanks, Mary.

Mary : Thank you. Bye.

Maurice Boland : On that point, if you wouldn’t mind me making a little point of that, errm, Tony, on the point of leaving your children.

Tony Bennett :  Hm hm.

Maurice Boland : I’ve admitted this before and I don’t, you know, I don’t mind admitting it, because it’s a fact. When my kids were young, poss possibly the same age as Madeleine McCann, I had three boys and, err, we had, err, like a mobile holiday home…

Tony Bennett : Hm hm.

Maurice Boland : … in a place called Brittas Bay, in Dublin, err, just outside Dublin in Wicklow. Err, it was a very nice area, this place where we were, it was called McDaniels, and we had a lot of friends who had these – they were very big mobile, you know, they were sort of, you know what they’re like, you don’t pull them behind a car mobile homes – …

Tony Bennett : Hm hm. Hm hm.

Maurice Boland : … and it was a very well known place, and we all had these mobile homes and in the middle of this huge field there was tennis courts and barbecues areas. And we’d put the kids to bed and then we’d walk down to the middle of the field and we’d have a barbecue. And now and again, my wife would go up or I would go up and check the children were ok.

Tony Bennett : Right.

Maurice Boland : Now anyone could have gone in. I don’t think I was in any greater distance than the distance they were having their barbecue …

Tony Bennett :  Right.

Maurice Boland : …and one never thinks of some man going into the caravan and removing my children.

Tony Bennett : Well, can I ask you : what, was your caravan, or mobile home, within sight of where you were?

Maurice Boland : It was, yeh. Yeh.

Tony Bennett :  Yeh.

Maurice Boland : And, from what I understand, it was in sight where they were eating in the restaurant, no?

Tony Bennett : Well, I, well, I, I think that’s a common misunderstanding. They’re very much not. The, the actual distance as the crow flies was around 60 yards, 60 metres, something like that. The actual walking distance was 120 yards, but the actual room where the children were was on the other side of the apartment where they could not be seen. So, I think that’s one difference from your, errm…

Maurice Boland :  Ok.

Tony Bennett :  … account. And, but the other, but the other point is this : You said, you said that, that, that you were checking from time to time on the children…

Maurice Boland : Absolutely. Absolutely.

Tony Bennett : …Right. You would do that. You would have done that, any responsible parent would have done that. But how are we to account for Madeleine crying for 75 minutes continually? Now that wouldn’t have happened on your example on the camping site in Ireland, would it?

Maurice Boland : No, it wouldn’t have. Let me ask you about the person who heard her crying for 75 minutes. What do we know about that person?

Tony Bennett : Errm, her name is Mrs Pamela Fenn…

Maurice Boland : Hm hm.

Tony Bennett : …She was a resident, a permanent resident in Praia da Luz. She occupied the apartment immediately above. Errm, she’s a widow aged 82 and it’s also been reported that she, err, well it’s in her statement that she made to the Portuguese police which has been released, of course – it’s one of the reasons that we can write the books like this, because the Portuguese police have released a lot of information – errm, she had been discussing this with other friends who, apparently, were not surprised that she heard the children crying because they’d heard the children crying on a previous night as well. So, errm, ….

Maurice Boland : It doesn’t seem to be a very responsible act on behalf of the parents. I have, personally – and I’m only talking personally – and Mary, who just phone now, doesn’t agree with me at all, I’m sure of that, but I don’t see, err, now, my mind has changed and of course the world has changed a lot since my kids were young, err, and there’s more mad people out there etc, etc, but I, I still could not condemn the, the, errm, McCanns for going to the restaurant where there – and I’m sure there are a lot of people were in that restaurant who had very young kids who were in bed that night – I can’t condemn them for that. And, but, but it seems to me to be odd. If there was a person, err, and especially a, a woman of that age who is, you know, more mature and more responsible, hearing a child, a very young child, crying – and one would imagine quite frantically – for one hour, one would imagine she would at least go downstairs and see if that child was ok.

Tony Bennett : Now, you’re, you’re taxiing my memory of, of the facts in this case and I, I, I’m pretty certain that at some stage she reported her concerns to Mark Warner’s, possibly the following morning, I don’t think it was that night, but, on, with hindsight, I would certainly agree with you on that point, that, err, that if she heard that for 75 minutes, errm, one would think that she might have done something about it. Err, I mean I wouldn’t like to listen to that for more than 5 or 10 minutes without doing something about it.

Maurice Boland : I mean a woman of her age is normally, you know, people of that age are – younger people, “ahh shall leave them alone, they’re fine” – but a woman of that age is quite curious and if I was sitting in my garden, in my garden and my neighbours had a child in her garden who was crying, distressed, for over one hour I would go next door and ring the bell and say : “Is the child ok?”. And I… this confuses me slightly. You know, and the, and the fact that the child could have slipped and banged its head, and died, and two parents would come back – and probably, I’m sure, adore their children – then discussing dumping a body. It does, does make me worry.

Tony Bennett : Oh, well, ass I say, I, I can’t comment further on, on, on, on Mrs Fenn’s reasons for not reporting …

Maurice Boland : Well, she is, she is the key to this whole thing.

Tony Bennett : Well, she’s, she’s, she’s not, she’s not the key. I mean, what, what she does is, she tells us that, errm, the children were unattended for at least 75 minutes.

Maurice Boland : And what do the McCanns say about checking the children?

Tony Bennett : Well, I, I don’t think we’ve had a, err, the, I mean they admit to having left those children, err, several nights in a row, they…

Maurice Boland : Yeh, I understand that.

Tony Bennett : …that’s, that’s on the record. As to the checking of the children, errm, they have made different claims. In the early days, we heard that they were checking every 15 minutes, sometimes every 30 minutes.

Maurice Boland : Hm hm.

Tony Bennett : Then we were told every hour. We had all these different versions. Err, all I would, would say is that, errm, well let me take you to the evidence of the waiters at the Tapas bar.

Maurice Boland : Ok.

Tony Bennett : There are statements from the waiters at the Tapas bar where they went every night, and, and those waiters have said, on the record, that they never saw the, errm, the McCanns and their friends checking on their children at all. So, I take that into account. The McCanns claim that they were checking on their children….

Maurice Boland : How many people were in the Tapas bar, do we know?

Tony Bennett : No, I, I, I can’t help you on that, there were certainly some other families….

Maurice Boland : I would say it was probably packed, because it’s the middle of the tourist season, yeah?

Tony Bennett : Yes.

Maurice Boland : I don’t think a waiter would have remembered if Mrs McCann got up or someone got up, and they could have been gone to the toilet. “How many times did Mrs McCann go to the toilet?”, I’d have asked the waiter. You know, I think that’s an incredible thing, that statement.

Tony Bennett : Hm hm. Hm hm.

Maurice Boland : I would say. I mean, how many times when you were sitting in a restaurant would you … I ran restaurants for 25 years, err, and, and clubs, I would never know how many times a woman went to the toilet from a certain table. Never mind going and checking on children. You know I, I just think that’s, that’s very weak.

Tony Bennett : Well, errm, as I, as I say, possib…, arguably they were checking their children…

Maurice Boland : Hmm, ok, let’s say they were.

Tony Bennett : Yeh.

Maurice Boland : As I would do and possibly other parents, you know – have you got children?

Tony Bennett : I’ve got 2 children and 1 grandchild, yes.

Maurice Boland : Ok, well I’ve got, you know, 3 children and 2 grandchildren and 1 on the way even, but I, I’m just thinking, you know – to myself – you go to this holiday resort which is like, err, like a little white village, if you want, it’s not a village it’s, errm, what do you call it, apartment blocks and it’s got a swimming pool in the middle and it’s got a restaurant with, err, with people, Tapas bar restaurant where people sit and drink and, and you, and you can normally see the apartments – and it’s the same here in Spain, you can see all the apartments around and you go and sit – it’s like, if you had a big garden would you have your barbecue at the bottom of the garden, if you had your barbecue at the bottom of the garden and … and you go up and you keep looking at your children and someone slipped in and took your child, err, would you be then be, you know, say you’d be told that you were neglecting your child… I mean in Tenerife, there’s a missing child, a grandmother was inside doing her – there is a big case at the moment – and she is inside doing the housework, her grandchild, her grandson was playing in the garden and, err, when she came out to get him, err, the grandchild was gone. Abducted.

Tony Bennett : Yes, I, I, I, I unders, I understand all of what, all of what you are saying there. I, I would like to just briefly mention that the NSPCC have got specific guidelines on, on the leaving of young children, and they, they do say on their own website, in their own guidance, that you should never leave young children on their own even for a few minutes.

Maurice Boland : Well, of course.

Tony Bennett : Now, I think the situation you mentioned, err, on your holiday in the mobile home is somewhat different in that you were within vision of, err, of that caravan and, errm, it was perhaps a, a space where you would notice a, a stranger and so on. But these, these doctors were, they claimed to be checking every half an hour – it’s a long time to leave a child 130 yards away in a room where you can’t see them.

Maurice Boland : You know what the funny thing is, you don’t imagine, the reason that the parents are checking on their children to make sure that they are not, not, err, waking up and are not frightened, you know, and, and the last thing you ever think of is that your child could die. Pfff, you know, just it’s beyond, it’s beyond reason. And of course, since the Madeleine McCann case, one thing that we’ve all learned from this is ‘do not leave our children for one minute and if we are going to go out, go and get a babysitter’. That’s what we’ve learnt from this lesson.

Tony Bennett : Well, I, I’m glad you said that, that, that is the lesson that’s been learned. It’s not a lesson that the McCanns have invited us to, errm, to adopt though. What, what they’ve been proclaiming is the need for all these kind of Amber Alerts and these, err, alert systems to abduction and so on, but I, I would be glad if people do take from this, errm, err, terrible situation that’s happened to Madeleine, that, that, that the message is ‘don’t leave your children on their own’. The McCanns claimed, if you remember, that what they were doing, what they’d done was well within the bounds of responsible parenting, that was a quote from them.

Maurice Boland : Tony…

Tony Bennett : And they’ve never, ever , as far as I’m aware on the record, said : “Look, please parents, don’t leave your children on their own like we did”.

Maurice Boland : Yeh, but that’s, you know, that’s a really difficult thing for them to be saying. I mean, that goes without saying. This is the thing about it, if these were two uneducated people – you know this type that go away and they wear, they go away and they wear these union jack shorts and they have bottles of beer, and, err, lots of it, all day and then you see them quite heavy, the man is diving into the pool, and they’re making a nuisance of themselves, and they’re singing songs, and getting absolutely legless at night, and their kids are up in the apartment and you know and, and then you start immediately thinking “well, you know”, but here we’re talking about educated people, with three young children, with everything, you know, in their lives… I mean, you look at the home where they come from, there’s nothing within their personality that could ever … I, could you – can I ask you this – could you pick your, what age is your grandchild?

Tony Bennett : Err, three and a quarter.

Maurice Boland : Ok, there you are, and what age was Madeleine?

Tony Bennett : Just over that, three and three quarters.

Maurice Boland : God forbid anything could happen, could you pile her body in a car and dump it?

Tony Bennett : Well, errm, heu…..

Maurice Boland : I’d rather go to prison…

Tony Bennett : I know. Well, I, I’d, I’ve, I’ve, I share the care of my, err, my, err, my grandson, I look after him quite a lot and the, errm…

Maurice Boland : Ok.

Tony Bennett : …and I don’t let him out of my sight for a second, actually…

Maurice Boland : Well, and I wouldn’t blame you. And I think, we all feel that way.

Tony Bennett : …But, but, err, if, if – I come back to this point Maurice – if, if I wa, if I had, if I was responsible in some way for him suffering, suffering an accident, if, if, if that were to happen, errm, I might well panic, I might, I might well…
Maurice Boland : Ok. Ok.

Tony Bennett : …make up a cover story to cover that, as you said in the introduction to this programme, this happened many, many times in the past. Something happens through your negligence or carelessness…

Maurice Boland : Ok, you make up a cover story, but throwing a child over the side of a mountain…one second, we’ve got a call. Good afternoon caller.

Baud : Good afternoon. Err, it’s Baud. What, what I’d just like to say is that, for police officers to go to a, a scene of a crime it’s a very difficult thing for them to do, especially when there was no body. Err, the only thing that they could go on is statements from different people. And to try and trace back what happened to a little child was very difficult, and the press did not help because the press said, basically, these stupid police officers of err, err…

Maurice Boland : …Portuguese. Yeh, yeh.

Baud : …Portugal, and, and tried to discredit them because this couldn’t happen to two doctors, you know. And, as slowly little bits of information are coming out – I mean, errm, errm, my two children were born here in Spain and they’re 19 and 16 now, but we never left them once. If we ever went to a restaurant and we never had then children with us, the people in the restaurant, Spanish restaurant, would say : “Well, don’t you enjoy your children?”. We went everywhere with them and we enjoyed it…

Maurice Boland : Sure, in Spain that’s encouraged, that’s the lovely thing about Spain. Families here in Spain, unlike UK, will go with their children – their 3 year olds, their 4 year olds – at 10, 11 o’clock at night and go into restaurants and it’s encouraged. It’s very different back in the UK.

Baud : Yeh, but this wasn’t in the UK, this was…

Maurice Boland : I know, but these people were on holiday from UK, they weren’t brought up here, if you know what I mean.

Baud : No, I do, but, I mean they see the way, I’m sure in that Tapas bar there were other little children, babies, in that, in that Tapas bar or whatever, but even so, err, it’s, there’s a lot of funny things coming out. But, I mean, I’m sure that the case at the time, if, if there wasn’t this deluge of criticism on, on, on the way the police – and these guys are professional people, they want to find the truth, they’re, they’re, you know, I mean, they were, that, that guy was so upset about the little child missing and not finding her – and, you know, they can only go on the evidence that’s in front of them and the statements that were in front of them.

Maurice Boland :  Hm hm.

Baud : They had a very difficult time and, of course, the press were saying, well, two English doctors, could, you know, must be telling the truth. Well, there’s some very funny things coming out now. I mean, personally, my personal opinion – and I hate to have to say this – but I do hope the little child has died, because I would hate to think that she is in a paedophile, err, situation.

Maurice Boland : Ok, thanks caller, we got lots of calls backing up here.

Baud : Ok.

Maurice Boland : Thanks a lot, caller, err, Tony, you don’t mind taking calls in, do you?

Tony Bennett : No, of course not, no.

Maurice Boland : Ok. well, let’s try to get that call off, if he can hang up and leave room for the next call to come in. Caller just hang on where you are there and we see if we can put you through. There you are, I think we’ve got you through. Good evening caller.

Bertha : Hi Maurice, it’s Bertha here.

Maurice Boland : Who, who is on the line?

Bertha : It’s Bertha.

Maurice Boland : Bertha.

Bertha : Yes.

Maurice Boland : Well, hi Bertha.

Bertha : Hi. Errm, I, I find it a bit offensive that, that, errm, you can say that because they are doctors and because they are of a certain standing in society, that they’re not capable of being irresponsible.

Maurice Boland : No, I didn’t say…yeh, what I did say they were doctors, they weren’t big drinkers, they never showed a…I mean they’re educated people…that’s just a make up to me, this is only my personal view, the make up didn’t seem to be the type of people who would take their young child and throw it over the side of a cliff.

Bertha : No, I, I… Maurice, none of us know how we would react if our …

Maurice Boland : That’s a good point. That’s a good point.

Bertha : … personal neglect of our children led to one of their deaths. I, I can’t even imagine how I would react.

Maurice Boland : Ok, well, it’s a good point, it’s a good point.

Bertha : But to suggest, because they are of a certain standing in society that they’re not capable of irresponsibility is ridiculous, I mean, look what’s happening to the world at the moment …

Maurice Boland : But you’ve got to…

Bertha : … all of these professional men have rolled this country and every other country into diabolical financial situations. Now if you want to judge people on their standing in society, I think that’s a prejudice that needs to be looked at.

Maurice Boland : Well maybe it’s a good point, but, but I do say that it needs the two of them to tango, if you know what I mean.

Bertha : They, they acted irresponsibly, they left their children and unfortunately the child has paid with her life.

Maurice Boland : Ok, thanks for your call. There you are. Tony, you see, it’s very emotive, of course it’s very emotive and I think that people will agree to disagree in this case until it’s solved and, and the longer it goes on, and there’s no, there’s no body, and, we’ve heard of people being arrested and charged without bodies.

Tony Bennett : Yes.

Maurice Boland : In, in the case of the McCanns, or whoever it might be, neglect – they did talk about, in Portugal, is a, is a case where they could have ended up in prison. What happened with that?

Tony Bennett : Sorry, which, which case is that?

Maurice Boland : Is that neglect is a case that could be brought up in front of the judge and they could have ended up in prison.

Tony Bennett : Err, indeed. I’m not sure if you’re aware of this, Maurice, but I did, rather controversially, attempt to, errm, err, bring a prosecution against the McCanns …

Maurice Boland : I didn’t know.

Tony Bennett : …back in November 2007…

Maurice Boland :  Aha.

Tony Bennett : … under the 1933 ‘Children and Young Persons Act’ for child neglect and it was on the basis that, in fact, they had left their children, err, neglectfully, errm, left them for substantial periods of an evening without being there. The, the prosecution was refused on the grounds that, errm, err, the court thought that the jurisdiction might be in Portugal rather than in the United Kingdom, but, it, that was in fact the trigger that led to the foundation of the Madeleine Foundation because, errm, when I did that, errm, there was an overwhelming response, my email box was full with hundreds of people all around England and beyond, who said : “Look, thank you for doing this. These, these doctors, errm, placed Madeleine McCann in a vulnerable situation and they should be prosecuted like, like anybody else” and many people said that if they’d been working class parents on a council estate, they would definitely have been prosecuted.

Maurice Boland : We have another call, we’ll have to take this one as the last one. Good evening caller.

Jack : Good evening Maurice, this is Jack.

Maurice Boland : Hi Jack.

Jack : You know, there’s a question here – there were two other children in the family.

Maurice Boland : Hm hm.

Jack : It was never mentioned. Didn’t they wake up and cry? Didn’t they feel something? See something?

Maurice Boland : Well, one can imagine that if their sister was crying for one hour, that 2 children would wake up. It’s a good point.

Jack : Right, right and there’s never been a mention of the reaction of the two other children in this case.

Maurice Boland : Good, good point, Jack.

Tony Bennett : Can I come in there?

Maurice Boland : Yeh, of course.

Tony Bennett : I, I need to come in there because Dr Kate McCann said, in an interview about ten months ago, that, errm, on the morning of the 3rd May, Madeleine came to her and said that she and Sean had been crying the, err, the night before. I don’t know if you recall that, but that was stated by Dr Kate McCann herself that her two children had apparently been crying the night before so, there was a reference to the other child there. One, one point that I didn’t make earlier, briefly, was that, it’s on the record that the McCanns refused to pay for a, a baby monitor to visit the, errm, children on a regular basis. Err, they gave a couple of reasons for doing that. First of all they said that they didn’t want strangers looking after their children and secondly, they claimed that their own system of, err, checking on the children was superior to that of a, a baby monitor.

Maurice Boland :  Well, they might have believed that. They might have believed that. Ok, thanks, Jack. Thanks a lot. We’re going to have to wrap up. Fascinating subject that it is. Look, website wise, what can our listeners get on to?

Tony Bennett : Very simple http://www.madeleinefoundation.org

Maurice Boland : Brilliant. Thanks for joining us on this, on this show an let’s hope this will trigger something off, err, err, after all, let her soul rest in peace, that somehow somewhere along that this can be solved and we can find out where her body or where she is, and, err,  the case can be concluded.

Tony Bennett : I very much hope so, yes.

Maurice Boland : Thanks for joining us.

Tony Bennett : Ok. Bye bye.

Maurice Boland : Thanks, Tony, bye bye.