The Creche Sheets

by Guest 23.02.12 12:02

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

This is just one example of the handwriting anomolies we can see in all of the creche sheets.

It started on the day that all of the children first went to creche, the 29th April. The day after they arrived.

How do you explain this and why do you think it started on the first day?

by Guest 23.02.12 15:13

That is the question that started the whole process of who, what, where, how, when and why. So let’s walk through this slowly from the beginning one last time, to see if the answer is any different today.

The first thing you need to ask yourself is this. Why would someone sign in another person’s child?

What would be the understandable reasons for this?

by Me 23.02.12 16:32

Stella wrote:
That is the question that started the whole process of who, what, where, how, when and why. So let’s walk through this slowly from the beginning one last time, to see if the answer is any different today.

The first thing you need to ask yourself is this. Why would someone sign in another person’s child?

What would be the understandable reasons for this?

Stella

Is it possible, from the information you have gathered so far to draw together, if you like, an Executive Summary of the creche records?

Possibly something relatively consice but direc to the point regarding the entries in the record and the timings of collections and drop offs which don't match the statements.

I must confess to not having studied all the information relating to the Creche recrods in anything like enough detail. and it would be a useful starting point if it could all be pulled together in one document.

by Guest 23.02.12 16:36

Good idea, my next project. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by uppatoffee 23.02.12 17:35

I sometimes sign in my friend's daughter at crèche. However I have know my friend since school. I would not sign in the daughter of someone I had just met on holiday. So in my mind that suggests that Gerry and Robert must be relatively well acquainted in order for him to do something that suggests such familiarity. Especially if writing details such as emergency contact numbers.

Is this Robert Naylor involved in the NHS too at a senior level?

by Genbug 23.02.12 17:56

uppatoffee wrote:I sometimes sign in my friend's daughter at crèche. However I have know my friend since school. I would not sign in the daughter of someone I had just met on holiday. So in my mind that suggests that Gerry and Robert must be relatively well acquainted in order for him to do something that suggests such familiarity. Especially if writing details such as emergency contact numbers.

Is this Robert Naylor involved in the NHS too at a senior level?

Hi uppatoffee, there IS a Robert Naylor who is a bigwig in the NHS, but I believe it has been ascertained that they are not one and the same. Just another coincidence!

by Guest 23.02.12 20:17

Genbug wrote:
uppatoffee wrote:I sometimes sign in my friend's daughter at crèche. However I have know my friend since school. I would not sign in the daughter of someone I had just met on holiday. So in my mind that suggests that Gerry and Robert must be relatively well acquainted in order for him to do something that suggests such familiarity. Especially if writing details such as emergency contact numbers.

Is this Robert Naylor involved in the NHS too at a senior level?

Hi uppatoffee, there IS a Robert Naylor who is a bigwig in the NHS, but I believe it has been ascertained that they are not one and the same. Just another coincidence!

This Robert Naylor works for the Matrix Group who are a financial services group. Interestingly, Robert and his wife Ainne get a mention in Jane Tanner's witness statements (though his wife's name has been translated as Ornya) and they were friendly with the group (if I recall correctly) via tennis and windsurfing. So we know there was contact between members of the group and Robert and his wife...

by Guest 23.02.12 20:48

Hope it's not too offtopic but would be interested to know if anyone knows who the two guys in wetsuits are in the bottom picture that's in the pj files..

The one on the right looks sort of familiar.... to me looks a bit like Mr Naylor as the hair seems to fit ... not sure I recognise the one on the left as Russell or Matthew...

also not sure if I'm allowed to post a picture of Mr Naylor here... but there is a link on the matrix group website that shows his photo....

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by uppatoffee 23.02.12 21:04

Thanks Stewie. Found a picture of him on their website. Always interesting to put a face to the name!

Also found Jane's statement for Wednesday 2/5
9.00 Tennis lesson by tennis coach with Kate.
Kids Club (E*** & Madeleine plus 4 other children also had a tennis lesson. Responsible Cat and Georgina. Jane Tanner and Kate watched kids lesson on tennis court, but left before finish.
Jane went to beach. Met Paynes. Also met Rob (husband of Ornya) staying at resort. Rob keen surfer. Believes from London.

Looking at the Creche sheets there were 5 other children with Ella and Madeleine that day; Jessica Berry, Elizabeth Naylor, Alexander Mann, William Totman (?) and Tia Patel. And the timetables shows that they were supposed to be doing moving rockets, mini sail (although this has an arrow suggesting it has been moved to Thursday), Crazy construction and Songs and Stories. No tennis at all - Only on Monday.

by uppatoffee 23.02.12 21:09

Stewie wrote:Hope it's not too offtopic but would be interested to know if anyone knows who the two guys in wetsuits are in the bottom picture that's in the pj files..

The one on the right looks sort of familiar.... to me looks a bit like Mr Naylor as the hair seems to fit ... not sure I recognise the one on the left as Russell or Matthew...

Looking at photos of the Tapas 9 at the time, I would say that on the left is Matthew and on the right is Robert Naylor. Certainly look like they know each other! big grin

by uppatoffee 23.02.12 21:23

Seems like whoever was filling the paperwork in had a lot of trouble completing the form correctly!

30/4 Robert Naylor
1/5 Rob (crossed out) Elizabeth Naylor
2/5 Elizabeth Naylor
3/5 Ella (crossed out) Elizabeth Naylor

Also noticed that on 1/5 one of the regulars, Alexander Mann was signed in with his dad's name, Robert, so it's not just Gerry that has this problem! Assuming it is him that was signing Madeleine and Elizabeth in. There are definitely similarities in the handwriting in both entries, and both look like they have been written by people who are left handed, given the flicks on the right hand stem of the A.

by Guest 24.02.12 12:12

I'm still thinking of the best way to go about this. With so much information contained within the creche entries. I'm leaning towards thinking that a day-by-day combined account of everything, would be better than discussing everything seperately. There is much to consider. Handwriting, who picked up and dropped off, telephone calls, contact numbers left, who did not show. By accumulating everything within a day, we might just see more activity on a particular day, or less as the case might be.

I'll make a start now.

by Guest 24.02.12 14:16

I will add up each day as I finish it, to give Kiko and others a chance to tweek it, if necessary.

Catriona Baker (Madeleine)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] statement May 6th

Translated by Robert Murat

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Rogatory interview April 2008

Translated by Ines

She arrived on the 21^st March, said she “got to know Gerry and Kate McCann on the Sunday morning, 29.04.2007, in the Minis Club”.

Shinead Vine (twins)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Translated by Robert Murat

She arrived on the 21^st March and does not mention when she first met the McCann’s.

Stacey Portz (twins)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Translated by Robert Murat

She arrived on the 18^th March, said she “Knew the McCann family since 29th of April as they would drop off their toddlers, Sean and Amelie, in the Toddler Club”.

Sat April 28^th, the day of arrival and the welcome meeting. Some of the nannies attended that meeting, to meet the parents of the children they would be looking after. Catriona Baker claimed that the first time she met Gerry and Kate, was at the start of crèche the following day. It would seem then that the McCann’s missed the welcome meeting on the Saturday. Looking at the statements of the other nannies who looked after the twins, they also do not mention seeing the McCann’s on the Saturday.

GM phone activity – no pings, calls or texts that day

KM phone activity – at 14.30 the signal is picked up, no calls or texts that day

by Invinoveritas 24.02.12 15:22

Stella, can I pick you up on the phone activity?

in the PJfiles, (bottom link) it states that Kate's phone was active nine times on the 28th/April

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] about halfway down, I quote: Activations of the mobile phone (44)790-310-8397; Owned/used by KATE MARIE HEALY [McCann].

This number activates only antennae of operator Optimus and TMN.

The first of the existing records occurs on 28 April, 2007 at 14:30:37 on the antenna "Luz Centro 1"; and the last contact date of 9 September, 2007 at 9:11:15 on the antenna "Aeroporto-Faro 2".

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Also, could you point me in the right direction, i.e. a link where I can find Gerry's phone record for the 28th, I can't find it in the PJfiles.

by Guest 24.02.12 16:23

Invinoveritas wrote:Stella, can I pick you up on the phone activity?

in the PJfiles, (bottom link) it states that Kate's phone was active nine times on the 28th/April

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] about halfway down, I quote: Activations of the mobile phone (44)790-310-8397; Owned/used by KATE MARIE HEALY [McCann].

This number activates only antennae of operator Optimus and TMN.

The first of the existing records occurs on 28 April, 2007 at 14:30:37 on the antenna "Luz Centro 1"; and the last contact date of 9 September, 2007 at 9:11:15 on the antenna "Aeroporto-Faro 2".

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Also, could you point me in the right direction, i.e. a link where I can find Gerry's phone record for the 28th, I can't find it in the PJfiles.

Thank you Invinoveritas, I can see that now. As you must know the phone stuff is Kiko's expertise and I will have to take another look as to why I only had the one entry in my records for that day. If there is more to be added for the 28th, I can easily adjust that entry on my analysis. My head is still deep inside the creche entries right now. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

As for Gerry's details that day, Kiko or Alison might have that information when they look in.

by Invinoveritas 24.02.12 16:56

Okeydokey, let's see what Kiko and Alison have to say, and Ta for your reply[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] .

by Guest 24.02.12 18:37

No recorded activity for GMc on 28th. His phone did not start to activate antenna until 29th.

Kiko has been looking into a text message received on the morning of the 29th. I think it might be a message from GMcs mobile service centre. Perhaps the message you get when you turn on your phone for the first time when you go abroad,

by Invinoveritas 24.02.12 19:14

alison wrote:No recorded activity for GMc on 28th. His phone did not start to activate antenna until 29th.

Kiko has been looking into a text message received on the morning of the 29th. I think it might be a message from GMcs mobile service centre. Perhaps the message you get when you turn on your phone for the first time when you go abroad,

Yes, Gerry's first recorded contact, (according to the PJfiles) was on the 29th, there were three contacts on that day, and yes, I to think that turning the phone on activates a response from the provider, i.e. a text or vocal message confirming the connection.

It might be a good idea to start another thread parallel to the Creche files concerning the mobiles (behind closed doors) if Stella agrees.

by Guest 25.02.12 9:11

Invinoveritas wrote:
alison wrote:No recorded activity for GMc on 28th. His phone did not start to activate antenna until 29th.

Kiko has been looking into a text message received on the morning of the 29th. I think it might be a message from GMcs mobile service centre. Perhaps the message you get when you turn on your phone for the first time when you go abroad,

Yes, Gerry's first recorded contact, (according to the PJfiles) was on the 29th, there were three contacts on that day, and yes, I to think that turning the phone on activates a response from the provider, i.e. a text or vocal message confirming the connection.

It might be a good idea to start another thread parallel to the Creche files concerning the mobiles (behind closed doors) if Stella agrees.

I know what you mean, there is too much information available and when you start going off in various different directions, you forget where you have been and what you have originally found. I will start another phone thread in here, but would like it to contain bullet point pieces of correct information, to refer back to quickly if necessary. We already have 2 discussion phone threads in the main section for any debate.

by Guest 25.02.12 9:14

alison wrote:No recorded activity for GMc on 28th. His phone did not start to activate antenna until 29th.

Kiko has been looking into a text message received on the morning of the 29th. I think it might be a message from GMcs mobile service centre. Perhaps the message you get when you turn on your phone for the first time when you go abroad,

Thank you for confirming this alison. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Will use that as the first entry.

by Guest 25.02.12 9:33

Day two - first draft

Sunday April 29^th

Catriona Baker in her Rogatory, claims she “had previously written the children’s bracelets which included their name, allergies and relevant information”. But if she had not met them before that morning, how did she know what the allergies and relevant information would be? No tapas child was photographed wearing a bracelet before May 3^rd.

Catriona Baker also states that there was a separate sign in sheet for AM and PM, yet all the ones we have seen are combined.

Tanner’s mobile was in use at 04.12 am, the other person involved is unknown.

Crèche starts at 9.00 am.

Two children arrive at 9.10 and another two at 9.15.

Elizabeth Naylor is signed in as Robert Naylor.

Madeleine is the last child to arrive at 9.45.

There is no explanation for her late arrival.

Ella does not attend that morning, according to Jane, her foot was still sore.

Crèche finishes at 12.30.

Madeleine is the second one to leave at 12.15.

Elizabeth leaves at 12.30.

In the afternoon, crèche starts at 14.30.

Madeleine and Ella O’Brien arrive at the same time 14.45.

Elizabeth arrives at 14.40.

Elizabeth Naylor is signed in once again as Robert Naylor

Someone crosses both mistakes out and puts Elizabeth.

AM - Kate signs Madeleine in with her mobile number, Gerry picks her up at 12.15.

PM - Gerry signs Madeleine in with his mobile number, Kate picks her up at 17.30.

‘McCann’ as written by Gerry in the afternoon, rises up as it finishes.

‘Naylor’ written in and out, also rises up as it finishes.

The corrected name Elizabeth also rises up.

Gerry writes the time 14.45 and the minutes rise up.

GM phone activity – at 10.13 he gets a text message, then nothing (t.b.a).

KM phone activity – nothing that day.

Catriona Baker made a very interesting comment about that first day. “Concerning the little girl, she states that she was an active and sociable child. Only on the first day was she more reticent with the group”. - Statement 6^th May.

Then by her Rogatory Interview, we have a retraction:

“My original deposition also mentioned that Madeleine offered more attention to the boys in the club. I do not remember having made such an affirmation given that Madeleine passed the majority of time playing with Jane Tanner's daughter”.

by Guest 25.02.12 15:51

I'm adding this to the above list for the 29th, if anyone can think of anything else relevant to that day where creche or phones are concerned, please let me know.

The twins AM Jellyfish crèche sheet has been withheld by the PJ.

by Guest 26.02.12 11:31

Final draft for the 29th, will start work on the 30th tomorrow. I have added a few more important bits and rearranged it slightly to reflect how the day went in real time.

Sunday April 29^th

Catriona Baker in her Rogatory, claims she “had previously written the children’s bracelets which included their name, allergies and relevant information”. But if she had not met them before that morning, how did she know what the allergies and relevant information would be? No tapas child was photographed wearing a bracelet before May 3^rd.

Catriona Baker also states that there was a separate sign in sheet for AM and PM, yet all the ones we have seen are combined.

Tanner’s mobile was in use at 04.12 am, the other person involved is unknown.

All of the tapas group attends the Millennium restaurant for breakfast. - added 27/02/12

The twins AM Jellyfish crèche sheet, has been withheld by the PJ.

The lobsters crèche sheet for the 29^thfor some reason is not dated. - added 27/02/12

Lobsters crèche starts at 9.00 am.

Two children arrive at 9.10 and another two at 9.15.

Elizabeth Naylor is signed in as Robert Naylor at 9.10, by Robert Naylor.

Madeleine is the last child to arrive at 9.45, signed in by Kate.

Kate signs Madeleine in leaving her mobile number.

There is no explanation for her late arrival.

Ella does not attend that morning, according to Jane, her foot was still sore.

Crèche should finish at 12.30.

Madeleine is the second one to leave at 12.15, signed out by Gerry.

Elizabeth leaves at 12.30, signed out using Ainne Naylor.

AM and PM is separated by a very squiggly line.

Afternoon crèche starts at 14.30.

Elizabeth arrives at 14.40, signed in by Robert Naylor.

Madeleine and Ella arrive at the same time at 14.45 by Gerry & Russell.

Gerry signs Madeleine in leaving his mobile number.

Gerry does not remember doing this. - Statement 10^th May. - added 27/02/12

Elizabeth Naylor is signed in once again as Robert Naylor, by Robert Naylor.

Someone crosses out both entries of Robert and puts Elizabeth.

Ella is signed out at 3.30 by Russell, just 45 minutes after arriving.

Elizabeth is signed out at 5.20 by Ainne Naylor.

Madeleine is signed out at 17.30 by Kate.

‘McCann’ as written by Gerry in the afternoon, rises up as it finishes.

‘Naylor’ written in and out, also rises up as it finishes.

The corrected name Elizabeth also rises up.

Gerry writes the time 14.45 and the minutes are elevated in a unique style.

GM phone activity – at 10.13 he gets a text message, then nothing further.

KM phone activity – no activity that day.

Catriona Baker made a very interesting comment about that first day. “Concerning the little girl, she states that she was an active and sociable child. Only on the first day was she more reticent with the group”. - Statement 6^th May.

Then by her Rogatory Interview, we have a retraction:

“My original deposition also mentioned that Madeleine offered more attention to the boys in the club. I do not remember having made such an affirmation given that Madeleine passed the majority of time playing with Jane Tanner's daughter”.

by Guest 26.02.12 19:29

Hi Stella,

Might be worth putting in for 29 April that all of the group had breakfast with kids at the Millennium Restaurant.. This was the only day the McCann's at there for breakfast according to the bewk...although I think the rest of the group would continue to go there on subsequent days.

by Guest 27.02.12 8:49

I did think about that Stewie, but as the rest of the week is an indecisive mess, I thought maybe leave it out. But thinking about it, if that morning was a pivotal moment, which I think it was, essentially that is a very important factor that does need recording.

Thanks Stewie. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

ETA, I've just added it to the above list.

by Genbug 27.02.12 10:12

[quote="Stella"]

Sunday April 29^th

Afternoon crèche starts at 14.30.

Elizabeth arrives at 14.40, signed in by Robert Naylor.

Madeleine and Ella arrive at the same time at 14.45 by Gerry & Russell.

Gerry signs Madeleine in leaving his mobile number.

________________

Stella, it may or may not be of significance but Gerry claims not to remember if it was him that signed Madeleine in on the Sunday. The text below is an excerpt from his 10 May statement and is referring to Sunday 29 April. Strange how he remembers what time they took the children to the playground and what time they left (just five minutes in the playground) and the times for virtually everything else they did that day, but doesn't remember going with Russell to sign Madeleine in?

"They took the children to the play area next to the pool, where the playground is located, at 14H15, having stayed there until about 14H20. After that time they left the twins in the crèche at TAPAS, and either the deponent or KATE, he doesn't know who, took MADELEINE to the crèche above the main reception, following the previously described route. He clarifies that the children’s drop-off and collection times were recorded at each crèche along with the contact number and location of the respective parents."

by Guest 27.02.12 10:47

Genbug, thank you. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I think that is a very important point, which needs to added to the list. Is Gerry distancing himself from being there?

I also think this list when complete, will be a very useful tool for a lot of other things.

by Guest 27.02.12 11:41

Adding to the list for the 29th, that on this day, no one dates the Lobsters creche sheet. It's the only time it happens, so needs to be recorded.

by Guest 27.02.12 12:18

Just spotted something else that could be quite important. For some reason, the twins were signed in Jellyfish all week, apart from the 30th, when they are signed in Starfish. Why did their group name change for just this day? Must check to see if they had a different nanny that day.

This is also the day when Madeleine is signed in and out, in the afternoon, after staying for just 15 minutes.

by aiyoyo 27.02.12 15:17

Excellent work Stella. The concise summary in points form is very easy to follow.

Of the name "Robert Naylor" on records which had to be changed twice to "Elizabeth Naylor", my opinion is that Robert signs his own name instead of his child as men do sometimes without thinking it should have been the child's name.
Maybe it is the mentality that he's next of kin in case of emergency. Of course I could be wrong, but that is one possible explanation, FWIW.