When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

by skyrocket 02.02.17 14:49

In David Payne's Rogatory interview, DC Ivor Messiah recaps the events of the evening of the 3 May. Is it possible, that what Payne recounts below is partially actual memory/recall (seeping out) from the moment he found out about whatever had really happened to Madeleine, at an earlier point in the holiday?

Note: I have included Payne's answers to the 2 questions prior to those of interest as they are the ones where Payne describes Madeleine.

1485 "Okay. I'd like you to describe Madeleine to me. What sort of a child she is and you know how you see her.'
Reply "Mm, err Madeleine's err a very striking err beautiful child, I'd almost if I want a better phrase call her doll-like, you know she was very, you know I think, you know very unique looking child err, she'd got very pretty, you know blonde hair err in a bob, she was quite a petite err child and you know she was very bubbly, very err you know she was a very good child to, to interact with. She was very bright, you could have a lot of fun with Madeleine err and you know she, she was, you know Kate and Gerry's, you know pride and joy. They'd had a lot of trouble conceiving, you know with IVF and everything and you know Madeleine was their miracle. She was obviously very unique with the fact that she'd got the, you know the iris defect err but you know she was certainly a happy go lucky child you know she was, she would interact with the other children very well, as I said on the other, earlier recording, you know she played very happily with Lily and you know indeed the other children. She was, you know, very, she is a very beautiful child and good fun.'
1485 "Mm.'
00:15:30 Reply "You know I, you know a fact I've come across already you know she was a, she's a very bright child you know, she wouldn't be the kind of mischievous child who you know and just try and get out of the flat and you know get up to mischief and that, you know, there's fun in all children but she certainly wasn't that kind of child. She was very bright.'

Now, on to the main point of this thread:

1485 "Moving on then to the time that you, when you say after the alarm was raised you went into the MCCANN'S apartment. Can you describe the layout of the apartment''
Reply "If you're going in through the patio doors you walk directly into the, err the living, you know, lounge space. Then if you're going, walking through the apartment towards the front door you have the kitchen on the, err right, which was a small kitchen, which was boxed off from the rest of err open plan living space. If you were walking from the patio doors into the apartment and you were walking towards the front door and turn left you would go towards the bedroom areas. Directly in front of you, you had the bathroom err as you were looking at the bathroom the door to the left would be the, the room where Kate and Gerry stayed and the door to the right was err where the children were sleeping. Err you know there was the double bed in the err Kate and Gerry's room and as you went into err Sean and Amelie's room there was a bed up against the far wall where there was the, you know, was the window. There was another bed parallel to that but across the other side of the room, err along the wall where the door is where you walked into the apartment. In between the two parallel beds was the, err two cots also parallel with the space err between the two of them, and obviously the twins were sleeping in the err cots and then err Madeleine was on the bed which was nearest the door that you walked in to get in there.'

Note: Payne was specifically asked about when he entered the McCann's apartment AFTER the alarm had been raised - not at any other point in the holiday. He describes the layout, and quite clearly describes the location of the twins AND Madeleine. He says: 'Madeleine was on the bed,' not 'Madeleine was missing,' or 'Madeleine wasn't there.' Also note how he describes her as being 'on' and not 'in' the bed. Remember what Gerry McCann said in his 7 Sept Arguido statement: 'Madeleine was lying down on her left side, she was completely uncovered, that is, lying on top of the covers.'

Note how DC Messiah now adds 'at that point' for the next question (did this jolt Payne back to the scripted version?):

1485 "Okay. When you went in after the alarm was raised what was the bedroom like at that point''
00:18:01 Reply "Err the, you know again I, it, it wasn't, it wasn't dark, it wasn't really, really dark but it you know my overall impression was the room was fairly dark. The, the children as I said before were still err fast asleep, which again you know we've discussed this you know over the months that Kate and Gerry you know, as all children wake up you know in the night and err you know with all the pandemonium and the shouting, breaking, that they were still you know, fast asleep, and err you know I wouldn't describe that I could see anything in the room like there'd been, you know, clothes thrown around the room or anything and disturbed and you know I, I noticed that the bed was empty that Madeleine was sleeping in. Other people have described that the bed was very neat and tidy but that isn't what, you know, I could confirm.'
1485 "What was the bed like that you can confirm''
Reply "I, I, you know, I, my note, visual note was she's not there, the twins are there, you know I just ran out and you know was wanting to, you know, run around like a headless chicken and try and do something you know to be helpful.'

And now look what Payne says next (seemingly self-correcting himself quickly):

00:19:23 1485 "How long do you think you were in that bedroom for''
Reply "Err as I say when I was there I wasn't actually, hadn't walked in to the whole part of the bedroom, if anything I'd just stepped in to the room just from the, err you know the doorway perhaps just beyond the doorway, but I hadn't you know gone right in to say like where the twins were or in between where the beds were. Err again it's, it's difficult, it's difficult to say because I could have well pop back more than once just, you know, you know with Gerry, you know moving, you know we were moving around so frequently, err I wasn't certainly there for any length of time, whether it'd be a minute, you know that would be something, or that I'd ever stayed at the maximum because there was just so much else.'
1485 "Yeah.'

Yeah indeed, David.

by jeanmonroe 02.02.17 15:12

DAVID PAYNE:

"The date is Friday the eleventh of April two thousand and eight, and I make the time by my watch ten twenty six. My name is DC Ivor MESSIAH and I'm a Detective in the Major Crime Department at Leicestershire Police, alright?''

Interviewing Officer DC 1485 IVOR MESSIAH "Is there anything that you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth''? (about a three years old child 'disappearance')

David Payne reply: "Err the, there are a few things but I don't think this is the right forum for bringing those up.'

Interviewing Officer DC 1485 IVOR MESSIAH "Okay............"
------------------------------------
"Alt fact"

'Of course there's stuff I know, but I ain't gonna fcuking tell you, plod!"

by empath 02.02.17 15:20

Is this serious ?

by skyrocket 02.02.17 15:27

Just as a reminder, let's not forget that there are no apparent circumstances during the week during which David Payne would/should have seen the 3 McCann children asleep in their respective beds.

Remember - we are told that unlike the other children in the group, the McCann children NEVER slept during the day.

And, Payne tells us that he NEVER checked on anyones children during the evening (including his own). From his Rogatory statement:

1485 "Did you actually offer to check any of the children' I know you say that you didn't have to check yours.'
Reply "Yeah, no I never, I never did offer to check. Err there, as much as I you know, know, knew all the children well I err I probably wouldn't have felt, you know, bizarrely I wouldn't have felt quite comfortable checking them, more, you know if I, if it was at home and perhaps one of the children wasn't settling you know I'd go upstairs and go well you know could you be quiet but there I didn't feel quite comfortable doing that, it just, you know if the child was crying or upset and not sleeping I think the first person you know at that stage probably''

So, for him to describe what he saw, there has to be some unrecorded visit of David Payne to the McCanns' apartment at a time when 'Madeleine was on the bed', And note, unlike the twins, he doesn't state 'sleeping'.

by willowthewisp 02.02.17 15:30

jeanmonroe wrote:DAVID PAYNE:

"The date is Friday the eleventh of April two thousand and eight, and I make the time by my watch ten twenty six. My name is DC Ivor MESSIAH and I'm a Detective in the Major Crime Department at Leicestershire Police, alright?''

Interviewing Officer DC 1485 IVOR MESSIAH "Is there anything that you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth''? (about a three years old child 'disappearance')

David Payne reply: "Err the, there are a few things but I don't think this is the right forum for bringing those up.'

Interviewing Officer DC 1485 IVOR MESSIAH "Okay............"
------------------------------------
"Alt fact"

'Of course there's stuff I know, but I ain't gonna fcuking tell you, plod!"

Hi Jeanmonroe,as I have stated in the past,how is it that a serving UK Police Officer,DC1485 Ivor Messiah,has neglected in their duty to properly investigate Mr David Paynes quoted reply?
Didn't this serving Police Officer have a"Duty of Care"to a missing child who had been described by the parents of being "Abducted"from her holiday apartment 3 May 2007 at approximately 21.15pm,after a parents last check?

by Guest 02.02.17 15:32

and obviously the twins were sleeping in the err cots and then err Madeleine was on the bed which was nearest the door that you walked in to get in there

According to the official narrative, I don't think there was any point in the holiday when David Payne could have seen Madeleine in or on the bed.

Did he lose focus for a second and recall a memory?

I think they said they didn't go in each other's apartments (expect for the alleged 9.30 check). At least I'm sure Matthew Oldfield said that but what about the others?

Has he slipped up here?

by Guest 02.02.17 15:35

1485 "Okay. When you went in after the alarm was raised what was the bedroom like at that point''
00:18:01 Reply "Err the, you know again I, it, it wasn't, it wasn't dark, it wasn't really, really dark but it you know my overall impression was the room was fairly dark.

So nobody switched a light on before David Payne walked in? Kate didn't? Gerry didn't?

Did Kate search the cupboards in the dark?

That makes no sense at all.

by Mirage 02.02.17 15:56

What did you see?" .. asked Leicester plod, only to have DCI Andy Redwood organise the bedroom door to be hung on the left instead of the right for the Crimewatch reconstruction.
Q. "Now, what can you see?"
A. A completely different view.

by worriedmum 02.02.17 16:00

It would be very interesting if Peter Hyatt or Hobbs could do a statement analysis of these interviews. They are so ODD..

by skyrocket 02.02.17 16:08

,
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - I suspect I posted my second post above about the same time as your first. No, I don't believe there should have been any time at which Payne would have seen Madeleine on/in the bed.

I suspect Payne's slip of the tongue (leakage) may have happened because he was telling porky pies about the twins having been in 2 cots in the room. I think there was only one and that the cleaner did see the other cot in Kate/Gerry's room. There are a number of passing references to the twins being in a single cot. I believe his brain was so fixated on getting this bit right, that the comment about Madeleine slipped through unnoticed. I have not yet fathomed why the 1 cot/2 cot scenario is of significance to anything that happened.

It seems improbable that OG hasn't picked up on points like this (Madeleine was on the bed) - speaks volumes about a cover up doesn't it.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - I completely agree, the Rogatory statements would be a gold mine for Peter Hyatt. The earlier statements are irrelevent in this respect, as they don't contain direct dialogue.

by suzyjohnson 02.02.17 16:21

An alternative interpretation of the above ........ I noticed straight away that David Payne talks about 'Kate and Gerry's room' and then 'Sean and Amelie's room. There is no mention of 'Madeleine's room' or the 'children's room' (which could include Madeleine) which I think fits with the fact that David Payne is not expected to have been in 5A bedrooms before Madeleine went missing. So, he is saying, well the left is Kate and Gerry's room, the right is Sean and Amelie's room. No Madeleine. When he says 'Madeleine was on the bed' by the door, he simply means that he had heard that Madeleine occupied that particular bed. He didn't mean that he had seen her either on it or in it.

by willowthewisp 02.02.17 16:28

suzyjohnson wrote:An alternative interpretation of the above ........ I noticed straight away that David Payne talks about 'Kate and Gerry's room' and then 'Sean and Amelie's room. There is no mention of 'Madeleine's room' or the 'children's room' (which could include Madeleine) which I think fits with the fact that David Payne is not expected to have been in 5A bedrooms before Madeleine went missing. So, he is saying, well the left is Kate and Gerry's room, the right is Sean and Amelie's room. No Madeleine. When he says 'Madeleine was on the bed' by the door, he simply means that he had heard that Madeleine occupied that particular bed. He didn't mean that he had seen her either on it or in it.

Hi Suzyjohnson,Do not forget the DNA samples of which Clarence Mitchell stated as a "Feasable"reason as to any explanation of where it was found,15:19 Markers,dismissed by FSS,as Madeleine's,call me Stu Prior,back in the UK "we would have had erm charged with that high a mark"?

by Guest 02.02.17 16:33

"Madeleine had the bed nearest the door".
"Madeleine's bed was nearest the door".

"Madeleine was on the bed nearest the door" is a present tense memory.

"Madeleine was in the bed nearest the door" could be construed as it was her bed past tense.

"on the bed" is not "in the bed".

"on" is a stronger physical presence statement than "in".

Possible leakage as skyrocket said.

by suzyjohnson 02.02.17 16:33

Not sure what you mean willowthewisp? DP may have been into the room, either before or after Madeleine was last seen. He may or may not know what happened to MM, or been involved. I'm just giving a reason why I think this part of his statement above, could make logical sense.

by willowthewisp 02.02.17 16:41

suzyjohnson wrote:Not sure what you mean willowthewisp? DP may have been into the room, either before or after Madeleine was last seen. He may or may not know what happened to MM, or been involved. I'm just giving a reason why I think this part of his statement above, could make logical sense.

Mr David Payne recollects a visit to the Apartment 5a seeing Three"Little Angels"in their nightwear at about 18.30 pm on the 3 May 2007,before joining his Tennis chums,where Gerry can no longer continue playing as he has torn a muscle?
So David Payne could have seen all Three children in the parents bedroom or in their own room?

by suzyjohnson 02.02.17 16:43

willowthewisp wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:Not sure what you mean willowthewisp? DP may have been into the room, either before or after Madeleine was last seen. He may or may not know what happened to MM, or been involved. I'm just giving a reason why I think this part of his statement above, could make logical sense.
Mr David Payne recollects a visit to the Apartment 5a seeing Three"Little Angels"in their nightwear at about 18.30 pm on the 3 May 2007,before joining his Tennis chums,where Gerry can no longer continue playing as he has torn a muscle?

He did, yes. But that recollection was in the lounge, not in either of the bedrooms.

by **sandancer** 02.02.17 16:49

So when I was there , I wasn't actually ( pause there ? ) in the bedroom , just stepped in just past the door !

Come on David , did you go in the bedroom or not ?

Did you stay for a minute , or was it for the maximum ( what maximum ??)

Did you pop back or not ?

Remniscent of the "checking on Kate if she needed help with the children "
In through the patio doors , or not saw the children ,or not ?
Stayed 3 minutes or 30 minutes ?

Well err ,you know err ! No Mr Payne that's the problem We Don't Know !!!

by empath 02.02.17 16:52

Torn a muscle ? Isn't this extremely painful ? wasnt Gerry and Kate spotted jogging together a few days after ? maybe eve the day after ?

by empath 02.02.17 16:56

skyrocket wrote:
Just as a reminder, let's not forget that there are no apparent circumstances during the week during which David Payne would/should have seen the 3 McCann children asleep in their respective beds.

Remember - we are told that unlike the other children in the group, the McCann children NEVER slept during the day.

And, Payne tells us that he NEVER checked on anyones children during the evening (including his own). From his Rogatory statement:

1485 "Did you actually offer to check any of the children' I know you say that you didn't have to check yours.'
Reply "Yeah, no I never, I never did offer to check. Err there, as much as I you know, know, knew all the children well I err I probably wouldn't have felt, you know, bizarrely I wouldn't have felt quite comfortable checking them, more, you know if I, if it was at home and perhaps one of the children wasn't settling you know I'd go upstairs and go well you know could you be quiet but there I didn't feel quite comfortable doing that, it just, you know if the child was crying or upset and not sleeping I think the first person you know at that stage probably''

So, for him to describe what he saw, there has to be some unrecorded visit of David Payne to the McCanns' apartment at a time when 'Madeleine was on the bed', And note, unlike the twins, he doesn't state 'sleeping'.

IS THIS THE SAME DAVID PAYNE WHO BATHED HIS FRIENDS CHILDREN ON A PREVIOUS HOLIDAY ? Yeah, no I never, I never did offer to check. Err there, as much as I you know, know, knew all the children well I err I probably wouldn't have felt, you know, bizarrely I wouldn't have felt quite comfortable checking them

by worriedmum 02.02.17 17:00

empath wrote:Torn a muscle ? Isn't this extremely painful ? wasnt Gerry and Kate spotted jogging together a few days after ? maybe eve the day after

''the day after, after, er...'' (Kate and Gerry in clip below) the day after WHAT?

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by empath 02.02.17 17:02

worriedmum wrote:
empath wrote:Torn a muscle ? Isn't this extremely painful ? wasnt Gerry and Kate spotted jogging together a few days after ? maybe eve the day after
''the day after, after, er...'' (Kate and Gerry in clip below) the day after WHAT?

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Well, the day after they discovered madelaine had been abducted ?

by worriedmum 02.02.17 17:05

empath wrote:
worriedmum wrote:
empath wrote:Torn a muscle ? Isn't this extremely painful ? wasnt Gerry and Kate spotted jogging together a few days after ? maybe eve the day after
''the day after, after, er...'' (Kate and Gerry in clip below) the day after WHAT?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Well, the day after they discovered madelaine had been abducted ?

They just can't bring themselves to say what though, can they?

by empath 02.02.17 17:07

worriedmum wrote:
empath wrote:
worriedmum wrote:
empath wrote:Torn a muscle ? Isn't this extremely painful ? wasnt Gerry and Kate spotted jogging together a few days after ? maybe eve the day after
''the day after, after, er...'' (Kate and Gerry in clip below) the day after WHAT?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Well, the day after they discovered madelaine had been abducted ?
They just can't bring themselves to say what though, can they?

No that's because the truth is in the lie

by skyrocket 02.02.17 18:04

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - Why would David Payne label the bedroom as 'Sean and Amelie's room' at all? 'The children's room' works fine, so why specify just the twins? According to the script, that bedroom was the room where all 3 McCann children slept all week up to around 9.30pm on 3 May. Payne enters the apartment less than an hour later - and again, if we go with the script, Madeleine was missing from the bed by the door. According to Payne he had been in the McCanns' apartment on at least half a dozen occasions - on at least one occasion, messing around with the travel cots, so more than likely he had been in both bedrooms or at least was aware of where the children were all sleeping. In his mind, under those circumstances, I don't believe he would have called the room 'Sean and Amelie's'.

Now, had something happened to Madeleine on possibly the Sunday evening (or even the Saturday evening), then perhaps this bedroom was fixed in Payne's mind as being only the twins's. The twins were moved out the room and the apartment vacated around 2am 4 May, so there is no reason that the concept of this bedroom being 'Sean and Amelie's' would have become fixed after the event.

Hope that makes sense. smilie

by worriedmum 02.02.17 18:37

skyrocket, yes it does make sense...

just jumping back to the rog interviews (mods move this if you think it better somewhere else)
I find the juxtaposition of these two ideas really odd

''She was obviously very unique with the fact that she'd got the, you know the iris defect err but you know she was certainly a happy go lucky child'

Is this medically qualified person hinting at health issues here?

by suzyjohnson 02.02.17 19:53

skyrocket wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - Why would David Payne label the bedroom as 'Sean and Amelie's room' at all? 'The children's room' works fine, so why specify just the twins? According to the script, that bedroom was the room where all 3 McCann children slept all week up to around 9.30pm on 3 May. Payne enters the apartment less than an hour later - and again, if we go with the script, Madeleine was missing from the bed by the door. According to Payne he had been in the McCanns' apartment on at least half a dozen occasions - on at least one occasion, messing around with the travel cots, so more than likely he had been in both bedrooms or at least was aware of where the children were all sleeping. In his mind, under those circumstances, I don't believe he would have called the room 'Sean and Amelie's'.

Now, had something happened to Madeleine on possibly the Sunday evening (or even the Saturday evening), then perhaps this bedroom was fixed in Payne's mind as being only the twins's. The twins were moved out the room and the apartment vacated around 2am 4 May, so there is no reason that the concept of this bedroom being 'Sean and Amelie's' would have become fixed after the event.

Hope that makes sense.

Yes, it makes sense skyrocket. It was the fact of DP having said 'Sean and Amelie's room' that jumped out at me straight away, there is definitely some significance to that although I have no idea what.

I didn't know Payne had been into the bedrooms previously. I think describing the room as 'the children's room' would be much more likely than 'Sean and Amelie's room' under the circumstances of this being Madeleine's usual room. Why, in his mind, was this room not Madeleine's room?

by empath 02.02.17 21:40

Tbf he would have said the kids/childrens room, the only reason he would say saun and amelies room is if Maddie didnt sleep in there/

Few reasons

Maddie slept in the parents room/she could even have been put in the cot that was meant to have been in there/leading to an accident when getting out

Maddie wasnt around the whole of the holiday
Maddie

by Guest 02.02.17 21:55

This just illustrates how unreliable statement analysis can be.

David Payne's rogatory interview is a record of garbled nonsense - there isn't one coherent sentence from beginning to end Who knows where his brain was on that particular day, it certainly wasn't in the interview room nor at the Ocean Club, Praia da Luz.

The particular sentence emphasised here, I quote "...Madeleine was on the bed which was nearest the door that you walked in to get in there...."

One interpretation, mine in this instance - 'Madeleine used the bed which was nearest the door'. It is of course past tense because after the alarm was raised by Kate McCann, Madeleine indeed was not there!

David Payne was aware of the layout of the McCanns apartment, he'd been in numerous times, he was their mate, no surprise he was familiar.

This is fast becoming another 'last photograph' analysis. Enjoy!

by Copodenieve 02.02.17 22:08

When he is talking about the layout of the McCann's apartment, he seems to be much more relaxed than in the other statements. His sentences are more flowing and easier to read and not littered as much with "errr you know". It almost feels like he felt on safe ground, and maybe that could be the reason why he slipped up?

by skyrocket 02.02.17 22:19

Ah [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], evening (or morning in your case) a predictable response as always! smilie

As you say, yours is but one opinion only - no more or less valid than any other.

Payne's Rogatory - garbled yes, nonsense quite probably, but I would argue not in the way you infer and therefore far from irrelevant (IMO). I thought it was Russell's statement held the garbled, nonsense title?

Let's let members come to their own conclusions/opinions without a barrage of condescending comments - so much friendlier and relaxed for everyone.