Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

by worriedmum 02.02.17 22:23

verdi ''This just illustrates how unreliable statement analysis can be''

It shows how unreliable YOU think statement analysis can be...
I for one think this would yield very interesting statement analysis..

by suzyjohnson 02.02.17 22:43

Verdi wrote:This just illustrates how unreliable statement analysis can be.

David Payne's rogatory interview is a record of garbled nonsense - there isn't one coherent sentence from beginning to end Who knows where his brain was on that particular day, it certainly wasn't in the interview room nor at the Ocean Club, Praia da Luz.

The particular sentence emphasised here, I quote "...Madeleine was on the bed which was nearest the door that you walked in to get in there...."

One interpretation, mine in this instance - 'Madeleine used the bed which was nearest the door'. It is of course past tense because after the alarm was raised by Kate McCann, Madeleine indeed was not there!

David Payne was aware of the layout of the McCanns apartment, he'd been in numerous times, he was their mate, no surprise he was familiar.

This is fast becoming another 'last photograph' analysis. Enjoy!

I don't think it's that straightforward. When DP described the room (at the rogatory interview) as 'Sean and Amelie's room' this was a long time after the event of Madeleine going missing. At what point did he start to think of it as 'Sean and Amelie's room' (but not Madeleine's) ?

1) Prior to May 3 rd, presumably this was Madeleine's, Sean's and Amelie's room, collectively, 'the children'. If he is truthful about the events of May 3 rd then, he would be unlikely to think of the room as just Sean and Amelies before the evening of May 3 rd.

2) Arriving at 5A after KM raised the alarm, and seeing just Sean and Amelie there he might say, 'Sean and Amelie's room in the present tense as in the room in which Sean and Amelie are in. Yet the police would surely ask, which room is Madeleine's room, or the children's room?

3) There is no reason why DP should think of the room as belonging to just Sean and Amelie after May 3 rd since the McCann family did not remain in apartment 5A after that night.

4) In the rogatory interviews you would expect the interviewee to be focusing on the missing child, so you might be thinking in terms of Kate and Gerry's room (DP's friends) and the room belonging to the missing child, 'the room on the right was Madeleine's room' but he doesn't say that.

Instead he tells the interviewer that the room on the right was the room of two secondary characters. Madeleine is missing in more than one sense.

From the opposite point of view, if Gerry was missing, DP might say the room on the right was 'the children's room' and the room on the left was Kate's room. It doesn't sound quite right because the main character has been missed out. Why?

by Guest 03.02.17 12:42

skyrocket wrote:Ah [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], evening (or morning in your case) a predictable response as always!

You've totally lost me there - how can 20:55H (that's 8:55pm in pounds shillings and pence) be morning?

Have I missed a punchline somewhere?

Synchronize clocks - it is now 11:42H or 11:42am.

by Guest 03.02.17 13:04

worriedmum wrote:verdi ''This just illustrates how unreliable statement analysis can be''

It shows how unreliable YOU think statement analysis can be...
I for one think this would yield very interesting statement analysis..

Yes you're right - spot on! Statement analysis is but opinion, or if you prefer, individual interpretation.

I acknowledge that those who work in the field, have the experience to recognize particular trends or patterns but at the end of the day it boils down to the same thing - opinion/individual interpretation open to dispute and therefore of little value as regards a criminal investigation.

Any practicing lawyer who cares little or nothing for justice, their only goal being to win the case, will crucify the bewildered innocent witness in the box by manipulation. for the want of a better word, of the witness statement before them - to lead them to saying things that could incriminate - twisting words and interpretation of words, thus making the witness appear unreliable. It's what they do.

You are of course at liberty to think otherwise, I don't wish to interupt your flow but allow me likewise to opine as I see fit - offend or please.

Now if you'll excuse me, I see I've a lot of catching up to do since last night.

by Guest 05.02.17 0:28

skyrocket wrote:Ah [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], evening (or morning in your case) a predictable response as always!

I see you've been online since making the above controversial comment.

Perhaps, when you're next passing through, you would be so gracious as to explain exactly what you were implying. Call me paranoid but your comment indicates some nefarious activity going on behind the scenes which I frankly don't appreciate.

It's probably nothing but it would be helpful if you could reply. I'm raising the issue on the open forum for the simple reason your comment was made on the open forum, I wouldn't like fellow members to be misled by innuendo or idle gossip.

Thanks howdy

.

by Guest 05.02.17 9:31

Verdi wrote:
worriedmum wrote:verdi ''This just illustrates how unreliable statement analysis can be''

It shows how unreliable YOU think statement analysis can be...
I for one think this would yield very interesting statement analysis..
Yes you're right - spot on! Statement analysis is but opinion, or if you prefer, individual interpretation.

I generally agree about statement analysis. It's a bit pseudoscience.

But in this case I think "on the bed" is a strange phrase to use.

"in the bed" I would get.

"On the bed" is not a phrase I would expect to be used in a "that was/is Madeleine's bed" context.

That is my opinion of course and compared to the dogs isn't that big a deal.

by skyrocket 05.02.17 10:40

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - I'm glad to inform you that paranoia is the worst of it (I'm pretty sure that most on here feel it on occasions, myself included). To put your mind at rest, from the get go when I joined, your posting style stood out, shall we say, and because of that I took a (casual) mental note of your posting times - rightly, or wrongly I had assumed you were not in the western hemisphere. I will refrain from any time specific salutations in future. Apologies if I caused you any concern.

by Guest 05.02.17 13:26

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Noted - you've said all I need to know to confirm my suspicions.

by Guest 05.02.17 13:33

BlueBag wrote:
Verdi wrote:
worriedmum wrote:verdi ''This just illustrates how unreliable statement analysis can be''

It shows how unreliable YOU think statement analysis can be...
I for one think this would yield very interesting statement analysis..
Yes you're right - spot on! Statement analysis is but opinion, or if you prefer, individual interpretation.
I generally agree about statement analysis. It's a bit pseudoscience.

But in this case I think "on the bed" is a strange phrase to use.

"in the bed" I would get.

"On the bed" is not a phrase I would expect to be used in a "that was/is Madeleine's bed" context.

That is my opinion of course and compared to the dogs isn't that big a deal.

I quite understand what you're saying - my main point was aimed at David Payne's apparent inability to answer a straightforward question coherently, so the chance of successfully analysing anything he says, hovers around zero. As I think I said, his rogatory interview from beginning to end is nothing but garbled garbage. Here's a random example when asked about the groups visit to the millennium restaurant at the start of their holiday..

"Err, yeah just working out you know where we're gonna eat and sit, sit down there and you know think there wasn't gonna be too many people there right at the beginning err eating in the Millennium, and err you know its like where are the high chairs its all new err get them sit down then you're all having a good chat you know you met up and err certainly you know two hours or maybe longer."

I rest my case big grin

.

by skyrocket 05.02.17 14:08

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - there's garbled and there's indecipherable.

I agree that David Payne doesn't come across as particularly eloquent; and he has a tendency to regularly switch tack in the middle of sentences; and he rambles on when a simple short answer would suffice; and he 'errs' an awful lot, but I don't agree that his statement is garbled in the sense that no sense can be made of it. His brain seems to be working overtime (IMO) and I don't believe that he is an accomplished liar, and perhaps he just isn't good at remembering lines.

Compare his answers with his wife's short, largely to the point responses to questions in her Rogatory.

To a trained eye I think that the specific questions that appear to be making Payne more nervous and most garbled would be very telling, as would his answers to those questions.

The Rogatory statements are very, very interesting, again IMO. They alone, you'd think, would have been enough for OG to consider more rigorous questioning of all the tapas 7.

I still hold that what he said i.e. that 'Madeleine was on the bed', needs to be considered as a possible slip up.

by suzyjohnson 05.02.17 20:10

BlueBag wrote:
In this case I think "on the bed" is a strange phrase to use.

"in the bed" I would get.

"On the bed" is not a phrase I would expect to be used in a "that was/is Madeleine's bed" context.

'On the bed' is unusual but I have heard that phrase before somewhere, in a different dialect and I can't think where. Irish possibly?

I wonder if 'on the bed' could be a phrase particularly used in hospitals, where you could be 'on a trolley' as opposed to in one?

by tinkier 06.02.17 0:35

suzyjohnson wrote:
BlueBag wrote:
In this case I think "on the bed" is a strange phrase to use.

"in the bed" I would get.

"On the bed" is not a phrase I would expect to be used in a "that was/is Madeleine's bed" context.

'On the bed' is unusual but I have heard that phrase before somewhere, in a different dialect and I can't think where. Irish possibly?

I wonder if 'on the bed' could be a phrase particularly used in hospitals, where you could be 'on a trolley' as opposed to in one?

Not sure I understand what you mean?…usually in a hospital a patient IN a trolley is normally dead being wheeled to the mortuary. :baffled:While on the subject of hospitals, it's always annoyed me that the McCann's tried to fob off a phrase "we've let her down" to being used in a hospital environment…..having worked in wards as well as A&E all my adult life, I have never once heard that phrase being used in the way they tried to infer, never. Just another concocted fairy story to try and cover up what they actually said at the time.

by **Nina** 06.02.17 1:04

tinkier wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:
BlueBag wrote:
In this case I think "on the bed" is a strange phrase to use.

"in the bed" I would get.

"On the bed" is not a phrase I would expect to be used in a "that was/is Madeleine's bed" context.

'On the bed' is unusual but I have heard that phrase before somewhere, in a different dialect and I can't think where. Irish possibly?

I wonder if 'on the bed' could be a phrase particularly used in hospitals, where you could be 'on a trolley' as opposed to in one?
Not sure I understand what you mean?…usually in a hospital a patient IN a trolley is normally dead being wheeled to the mortuary. :baffled:While on the subject of hospitals, it's always annoyed me that the McCann's tried to fob off a phrase "we've let her down" to being used in a hospital environment…..having worked in wards as well as A&E all my adult life, I have never once heard that phrase being used in the way they tried to infer, never. Just another concocted fairy story to try and cover up what they actually said at the time.

And me neither on the wards nor theatre.

by worriedmum 06.02.17 1:33

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] do you have to be so pompous? exalt

I'm quite happy to have a different opinion to you, that is the purpose of the forum.

by suzyjohnson 06.02.17 1:54

tinkier wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:
BlueBag wrote:
In this case I think "on the bed" is a strange phrase to use.

"in the bed" I would get.

"On the bed" is not a phrase I would expect to be used in a "that was/is Madeleine's bed" context.

'On the bed' is unusual but I have heard that phrase before somewhere, in a different dialect and I can't think where. Irish possibly?

I wonder if 'on the bed' could be a phrase particularly used in hospitals, where you could be 'on a trolley' as opposed to in one?
Not sure I understand what you mean?…usually in a hospital a patient IN a trolley is normally dead being wheeled to the mortuary. :baffled:While on the subject of hospitals, it's always annoyed me that the McCann's tried to fob off a phrase "we've let her down" to being used in a hospital environment…..having worked in wards as well as A&E all my adult life, I have never once heard that phrase being used in the way they tried to infer, never. Just another concocted fairy story to try and cover up what they actually said at the time.

Oh, no, I didn't know that, I have never heard of the expression 'in a trolley'

I don't have any experience in a hospital. What I meant was simply that it is common to say that a patient was 'on a trolley' and I wondered whether it might be usual / practical / convenient within the hospital to describe a patient as being 'on a/the/ that bed' as opposed to 'in a /the/that bed'

I thought, with DP being a medic, he might be used to saying 'on' rather than 'in' the bed.

It's interchangeable to ask 'which ward is the patient on?' 'which ward is the patient in?' also.

But regarding a hotel someone would say 'which room are they in?' never 'which room are they on?'

by tinkier 06.02.17 2:38

suzyjohnson wrote:
tinkier wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:
BlueBag wrote:
In this case I think "on the bed" is a strange phrase to use.

"in the bed" I would get.

"On the bed" is not a phrase I would expect to be used in a "that was/is Madeleine's bed" context.

'On the bed' is unusual but I have heard that phrase before somewhere, in a different dialect and I can't think where. Irish possibly?

I wonder if 'on the bed' could be a phrase particularly used in hospitals, where you could be 'on a trolley' as opposed to in one?
Not sure I understand what you mean?…usually in a hospital a patient IN a trolley is normally dead being wheeled to the mortuary. :baffled:While on the subject of hospitals, it's always annoyed me that the McCann's tried to fob off a phrase "we've let her down" to being used in a hospital environment…..having worked in wards as well as A&E all my adult life, I have never once heard that phrase being used in the way they tried to infer, never. Just another concocted fairy story to try and cover up what they actually said at the time.

Oh, no, I didn't know that, I have never heard of the expression 'in a trolley'

I don't have any experience in a hospital. What I meant was simply that it is common to say that a patient was 'on a trolley' and I wondered whether it might be usual / practical / convenient within the hospital to describe a patient as being 'on a/the/ that bed' as opposed to 'in a /the/that bed'

I thought, with DP being a medic, he might be used to saying 'on' rather than 'in' the bed.

It's interchangeable to ask 'which ward is the patient on?' 'which ward is the patient in?' also.

But regarding a hotel someone would say 'which room are they in?' never 'which room are they on?'

Ahh ok now I understand, thanks. Some patients do lie on top of the bed with a light cover having a nap or because they're too hot…but it's not a normal figure of speech that any Dr would use imo.

by **Nina** 06.02.17 12:22

tinkier wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:
tinkier wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:
BlueBag wrote:
In this case I think "on the bed" is a strange phrase to use.

"in the bed" I would get.

"On the bed" is not a phrase I would expect to be used in a "that was/is Madeleine's bed" context.

'On the bed' is unusual but I have heard that phrase before somewhere, in a different dialect and I can't think where. Irish possibly?

I wonder if 'on the bed' could be a phrase particularly used in hospitals, where you could be 'on a trolley' as opposed to in one?
Not sure I understand what you mean?…usually in a hospital a patient IN a trolley is normally dead being wheeled to the mortuary. :baffled:While on the subject of hospitals, it's always annoyed me that the McCann's tried to fob off a phrase "we've let her down" to being used in a hospital environment…..having worked in wards as well as A&E all my adult life, I have never once heard that phrase being used in the way they tried to infer, never. Just another concocted fairy story to try and cover up what they actually said at the time.

Oh, no, I didn't know that, I have never heard of the expression 'in a trolley'

I don't have any experience in a hospital. What I meant was simply that it is common to say that a patient was 'on a trolley' and I wondered whether it might be usual / practical / convenient within the hospital to describe a patient as being 'on a/the/ that bed' as opposed to 'in a /the/that bed'

I thought, with DP being a medic, he might be used to saying 'on' rather than 'in' the bed.

It's interchangeable to ask 'which ward is the patient on?' 'which ward is the patient in?' also.

But regarding a hotel someone would say 'which room are they in?' never 'which room are they on?'
Ahh ok now I understand, thanks. Some patients do lie on top of the bed with a light cover having a nap or because they're too hot…but it's not a normal figure of speech that any Dr would use imo.

Re the trolley, in or on. There is a special trolley used to take the deceased from the ward which in my experience was known as the 'angel cart' It was made to look like an empty trolley as it had a sheet and pillow over it as though being taken to a ward to pick up a patient, however under the sheet there was a metal box in which the deceased was being transported to the mortuary. As usual pushed by a porter and accompanied by a nurse.
Last week I visited my GP and she said hop on the couch.

by tinkier 06.02.17 12:47

Nina wrote:
tinkier wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:
tinkier wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:

'On the bed' is unusual but I have heard that phrase before somewhere, in a different dialect and I can't think where. Irish possibly?

I wonder if 'on the bed' could be a phrase particularly used in hospitals, where you could be 'on a trolley' as opposed to in one?
Not sure I understand what you mean?…usually in a hospital a patient IN a trolley is normally dead being wheeled to the mortuary. :baffled:While on the subject of hospitals, it's always annoyed me that the McCann's tried to fob off a phrase "we've let her down" to being used in a hospital environment…..having worked in wards as well as A&E all my adult life, I have never once heard that phrase being used in the way they tried to infer, never. Just another concocted fairy story to try and cover up what they actually said at the time.

Oh, no, I didn't know that, I have never heard of the expression 'in a trolley'

I don't have any experience in a hospital. What I meant was simply that it is common to say that a patient was 'on a trolley' and I wondered whether it might be usual / practical / convenient within the hospital to describe a patient as being 'on a/the/ that bed' as opposed to 'in a /the/that bed'

I thought, with DP being a medic, he might be used to saying 'on' rather than 'in' the bed.

It's interchangeable to ask 'which ward is the patient on?' 'which ward is the patient in?' also.

But regarding a hotel someone would say 'which room are they in?' never 'which room are they on?'
Ahh ok now I understand, thanks. Some patients do lie on top of the bed with a light cover having a nap or because they're too hot…but it's not a normal figure of speech that any Dr would use imo.
Re the trolley, in or on. There is a special trolley used to take the deceased from the ward which in my experience was known as the 'angel cart' It was made to look like an empty trolley as it had a sheet and pillow over it as though being taken to a ward to pick up a patient, however under the sheet there was a metal box in which the deceased was being transported to the mortuary. As usual pushed by a porter and accompanied by a nurse.
Last week I visited my GP and she said hop on the couch.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]..thats exactly the trolley I was referring to. We just call it the mortuary trolley, but must say I prefer "angle cart" sounds so much better. thumbsup

by Guest 06.02.17 12:56

worriedmum wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] do you have to be so pompous?

Is this a general observation or does it relate to a specific post?

Whatever, it's an interesting adjective you choose. The same thing was said of me over yonder by a member of the fringe group. That was some time back on the open forum - I dread to think what they say about me behind closed doors.

Pity they don't spend more time concentrating on the complete mystery of Madeleine McCann, rather than tittle tattling about specific individuals or groups. Ideally I would like to think we are all here with the same objective - although I do sometimes wonder if that be true. Fortunately I don't care much about their opinion of my persona but I do not appreciate an invasion of my privacy. The irony is, if you reveal something personal you are a liar, if you don't they invent things amongst themselves and then propagate their inventions as fact - can't win.

Not much different to the intricacies of the case before us - Madeleine McCann.

Still, onwards and upwards.

by Sinan19 02.09.17 16:31

I find the 'on the bed' quite interesting and think it is absolutely possible that he was talking about a specific memory, maybe with a deceased Madeleine on the bed?

The 'Amelie's and Sean's room' could simply be that Madeleine's been missing for quite some time and no longer is an 'active' part of the family and their dynamics. As in, at this point there's only Amelie and Sean left, no Madeleine.

And sorry for pushing such an old thread, just found this really interesting.

by Phoebe 14.05.18 22:10

I admit I know next to nothing about statement analysis but a line from David Payne's rogatory statement referring to Kate's behaviour made even sceptical me pay attention.

1485 Reply "It was just, you know, there was, there just no, there was nothing that she did that I thought was unlike someone who had not had their child abducted and there was everything that I'd expect to be."

In other words, Kate's behaviour was perfectly in keeping with someone who had NOT had their child abducted. Whether he genuinely made this brain leakage comment or there is an error in the written version I don't know. If not an error then it's a bit of a slip-up I reckon.

Another comment of Payne's in his rogatory statement also gives me pause for thought. He claims that a woman "from upstairs" came into 5A on the night of the "abduction" and attempted to console Kate. Who was this woman, was it Mrs. Fenn, or Mrs. Moyes. I don't recall a witness statement from anyone from upstairs who entered 5A and witnessed there the immediate aftermath of the abduction alarm.

Reply "Not at all. She (Yvonne Martin) was someone I'd certainly say to, to keep clear of you know and I, and I think pretty much I was saying look you know, appreciate your concern at this stage but you know it's not the right time to be talking to her, if you want to leave a card then you know perhaps there might be a time in the future but you know can you just leave us please, and that was you know the basics of the conversation that I had with her. Err you know her timing was just completely off, err you know there was, I say there was someone else who visited on the night that she was abducted, I think she was from the upstairs and she was again you know trying to say there, there Kate, you're alright, and again it was just completely inappropriate timing"

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