The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
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Documented Evidence - Page 16 Mm11

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The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Welcome to 'The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann' forum 🌹

Please log in, or register to view all the forums as some of them are 'members only', then settle in and help us get to the truth about what really happened to Madeleine Beth McCann.

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Documented Evidence - Page 16 Mm11

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Documented Evidence

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Documented Evidence - Page 16 Empty Re: Documented Evidence

Post by Verdi 07.08.21 16:05

Well, as I say the image does feature on the mccannpjfiles forum but not on the page of officially documented forensic photographs.

I'm very interested to know the provenance of the image, it doesn't look genuine to me even though it shows the PJ watermark. I guess it's easy to 'adjust' an image to include such.

The focal point of interest is however the fact that I don't believe the image was ever included in the official PJ documentation. I could of course be wrong.

It's worth looking into. If I'm right, it casts doubt on the range of information on the mccannpjfiles. One trifling anomaly OK but what else could be considered doubtful?

There is so much wrong with this case, it's hard to know who and what to trust.

sad

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Post by crusader 07.08.21 16:19

I'm now thinking I've read somewhere the blue bag was photographed in the early hours of 4th May but missing in the photo's later that day and just assumed it was taken by Joao Barreiras.

If it was taken by J Barreiras, it should be with the other photo's taken by him.

I think you could well be right Verdi.

I'm going to keep rummaging.
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Post by Jill Havern 07.08.21 16:22

Shouldn't these blue bag posts be moved to the debate section?

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Post by Verdi 07.08.21 16:32

Yes I have that in mind. Firstly I wanted to see which way it was heading, before making a decision.

Consider it in hand thumbsup

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Post by Verdi 08.08.21 0:52

I've had a good old rummage about the forum and outside, unfortunately can't find anything constructive that takes this forward.

The basis of past discussion of this enigmatic image of what resembles a bag of some sorts in the wardrobe in the bedroom occupied by Gerry and Kate McCann, it's the same image across the board but never shown as part of the documented forensic PJ photographic evidence of the crime scene.

I was hoping to merge past threads on the subject here on CMOMM but they are very old and defunct and for the most part just general chit chat.

So for that reason, I will move the posts from the member's lounge to another thread tomorrow, probably the 'Documented Evidence' thread as that seems the most appropriate at this stage.

Forewarned is forearmed.

If you find anything crusader, let us know!

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Post by Verdi 23.08.21 14:08

Many years ago there was a website set-up to debunk a lot of the rumour circulating the world wide web about the case of missing Madeleine McCann.

I can't recall who was behind the site, if I ever knew, but that is beside the point.

The important thing is, the debunking was spot on! Either downright (probably deliberate) lie; misinterpretation; tenuous interpretation; video editing and text editing. I did my own 'fact checking' and although my findings didn't go down too well with those garden fence gossips who are only interested in scandal. nonetheless the forum myths were debunked!

Would you believe it still goes on to this very day. No matter how many times you provide evidence of a falsity, people just ignore and carry on propagating nonsense regardless.

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Post by crusader 23.08.21 16:46

In a tv interview Feb 2012, G Amaral was being interviewed, (I'll post the link at the end if I can) for anyone who hasn't seen it.

They were discussing at one point, the blue bag.

G Amaral said Mark Harrison put forward the hypothesis that the body was taken inside a sports bag or golf bag after seeing photos taken inside 5A.

In his 23/7/07  statement, Harrison says this report considers solely the possibility that Madeleine has been murdered and her body concealed within Praia da Luz.

Up until then, the search was based on rescue and recovery to locate a missing child, alive or dead, not as a victim of crime.

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Post by Verdi 30.08.21 13:14

5 - 14 APENSOS V, Volume XIV Pages 29 to 50 (pdf) or 2971 TO 2992
Date: 2008/05/06

Service Information

To: The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation, Paolo Rebelo

From: Ricardo Paiva

Subject: Roman Tunnels in Praia da Luz, for annexing to the case files.


Within the scope of the investigation of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, the British police recently sent this police force the emails that are annexed, containing information about the possible existence of ancient underground tunnels of Roman origin in Praia da Luz, which presumably cross the entire village and which could be the subject of investigation by this police force.

Within this context and the aim of checking the accuracy of these emails on this date Engineer Martins from the Department of Urbanism and Infrastructure from the Lagos Municipal Chamber was contacted, he immediately supplied us with a CD with the cartography of the sewerage network of Praia da Luz at underground level, which shows that there are only tunnels for rainwater evacuation. These maps were printed and are annexed to this service report.

For your information

Signed

Inspector Ricardo Paiva

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ROMAN_TUNNELS.htm

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Documented Evidence - Page 16 Empty Re: Documented Evidence

Post by Verdi 08.09.21 12:54

Portimao Criminal Investigation Department
201/07.OGALGS
O INSPECTOR
M.P.
ATTACHED
On this date, I attached to these official papers 3 computer printed pages, relating to the description of the events, that have been collectively prepared by the nine people of the group in question, that was delivered to this Police Officer by the British Liaison Official, before the start of re-questioning of those same people.
Portimao, 10 May 2007
INSPECTOR
M.P.
========================================
[3 page attachment] Pages 887-890
Original written in English.
Sequence of Events: Thursday 3rd May 2007 - 2030 to 2200
As recalled by:

Gerry McCann - 5A
Kate McCann - 5A
David Payne - 5H (First floor)
Fiona Payne - 5H (First floor)
Dianne Webster - 5H (First floor)
Jane Tanner - 5D
Russell O'Brien - 5D
Matthew Oldfield - 5B
Rachael Oldfield - 5B

Times shown are approximate, but accurate to the best of our knowledge.

Prior to 2030, a11 couples and children were in their apartments preparing for bedtime.
-5A (Madeleine, Amelie and Sean McCann).
-5B (G**** Oldfield),
-5D (E*** and E***O'Brien) and
-5H (L*** and S******* Payne)

2030: Standard booking for meal at Tapas restaurant for group - same all week (Sun-Thur)
2035: Gerry McCann (GM) and Kate McCann (KC) arrive at table at Tapas Restaurant.
2040: Jane Tanner (JT) arrives, followed shortly by Matthew Oldfield (MO) and Rachael Mampilly Oldfield (RMO).
2045: Russell O'Brien (RJO) arrives at table.
2055: MO returns to apartments to check on ground floor flats, passing David Payne (DP), Fiona Payne (FP) and her mother Dianne Webster (DW) on their way down to the table.
2057: MO listens outside all ground floor flats' windows on the car park side of the apartment (5A, 5B and 5D) to make sure they were asleep. At this time, all the shutters were down on each window.
2100: MO return to the table. Starters were ordered.
2105: GM returns to his flat (5A) and enters via the patio gate entrance. This and a child gate at the top of the stairs were closed at the time. He enters the flat via the patio door which is closed but unlocked.
The door is slightly ajar (about 45 degrees) which is unusual. All the 3 children were present and asleep. GM believes the shutter was down. The room in which the children are asleep is completely dark. On leaving the room, GM shuts the door to approximately 5 degrees. He then goes to the toilet to urinate.
2115: JT leaves table, and sees GM talking with fellow resident ("Jez" Wilkins) outside the patio gate of 5A. The two were standing just up the hill from the gate towards Rua A. da Silva Road. She did not speak to GM as she passed.
As JT continued up the hill towards the junction with Rua A. da Silva, she sees a man carrying a child in his arms crossing left to right from the apartment side continuing east along Rua A. da Silva in the direction of the "Millennium Restaurant." He was on the same side of the road as JT 5-10 metres ahead of her.

Description of Man:
- Age 35 to 40.
- 1.7m tal1 approximately with a slim build.
- Good head of dark glossy hair, with possible flick of hair to the right. The hair was longer at the back (i.e not clippered or shaven).
- The central and the left side of the face were not seen.
- Full length trousers, casual, the material hanging without creases. The colour was possibly a browny mustard. They were not jeans.
- Long sleeved jacket, fastened at the front, possibly by a zipper. It had a gathered lower hem and was also possibly brownish in colour.
- Shoes may have been a semi-formal brogue.
- Whether he was wearing gloves or not could not be ascertained.
- He was not wearing a rucksack or any other identifiable objects.
- He was only carrying a child, with the head against the left upper chest away from JT and the feet to the right - i.e. cradling the child like a baby.
- He appeared to be walking in a rush to get somewhere.
- He was not someone JT recognised from the week.
- He was not dressed typically for a "tourist," or at least his clothing did not seem to be of UK origin and may well have been purchased in Portugal.

Description of Child:

- The child appeared to be a Caucasian girl about the ages of 3-4.
- She was seen to lie motionless/limp in the man's arms consistent with her sleeping or possibly drugged.
- She did not seem to be wrapped up well for the time of night wearing only pyjamas; the trousers were lightly coloured with a floral element, possibly with turn-ups. The top was not well seen though there was thought to be
another colour involved possibly pink.
- She was not wearing shoes.

JT checked only 5D entering via the deadlocked door on the car park side of the apartment. Both children inside were asleep. She did not check 5A or 5B.

2120: JT then returns to the restaurant, by which time GM had also returned. The entire party then begins eating their starters which have arrived.
2125: After starters, MO and RJO go back to the apartments via the car park entrance to check all flats. They go first to 5D where RJO's daughter Evie is heard crying. RJO enters flat, whilst MO checks inside 5B, and then returns to 5D.
2130: RJO remains in 5D as daughter has vomited. MO goes to check on 5A via the patio gate entrance. The outside gate is probably shut, but the child gate on the stairs up to the patio is possibly open. The patio door is closed but unlocked.
MO enters flat, hears a sound in the children's bedroom that is probably one of the twins rolling over in their cot. He does not enter the bedroom but can see through a now quite open door (greater than 45 degrees) into the room.
He sees the two twins in their cot, but does not check Madeleine formally as no sounds and twins asleep. He recalls the room did seem lighter than expected, perhaps suggesting the shutter had been raised or the curtains opened?
2135: MO returns to restaurant table, by which time main courses are arriving or being eaten. MO tells JT that Evie unwell.
2140: JT returns to 5D to take over care of Evie from RJO.
2145: RJO returns to table to eat main course leaving JT in 5D.
2155: RMO asked time at table. RJO's main course arrives.
2200: (approx): KM leaves table to check children in 5A. The patio gate is closed and the child gate is also probably closed. She enters through the closed patio entrance, with the curtains closed. She crosses the living area, and there is no noise from the children's bedroom. She is about to leave, when she notices the bedroom door was
open (approximately 60 degrees).
She starts to close it and it slams. Considering the patio doors had caused a draft, she checks these doors but they are closed. KM returns to the bedroom and opens the door to check the children were not disturbed by the noise.
At this point, she notices that Madeleine is missing. She checks the other single bed in the room and also Kate and Gerry's beds. Then she double checks that Madeleine was not in her bedroom again. At this point, she notices the curtains blowing forward with a gust of wind. She runs over, pulls open the curtain and notices the shutter was
completely raised, and the window pushed open to the left as far as possible.
She then completes a check of the bathroom, kitchen and wardrobes.
On failing to find Madeleine, she runs to the entrance of the restaurant, shouting from the path leading to the restaurant area raising the alarm that Madeleine was missing.

Documented Evidence - Page 16 10volu11
Documented Evidence - Page 16 10volu10


https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm

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Documented Evidence - Page 16 Empty Re: Documented Evidence

Post by Verdi 09.09.21 13:27

Documented Evidence - Page 16 Apenso12

05-06-Apensos V, Vol 6, Page 1357

Table of Contents : APENSOS V, Volume 6, Supposed Sightings and Locations (FILE 06)....(PDF Page 166 )....Page 1357?"Copy of Pages 1349 and 1353"

Page 1357 (Page 1 of 1 )

SOCA
SERIOUS ORGANISED CRIME AGENCY

INTERPOL - United Kingdom National Central Bureau (U.K.N.C.B.)

Interpol London
P.O. Box 8000
London. SE11 5EN
Tel : +44(0)207 238 8115
Fax : +44(0)207 238 8112
Email - london@soca.x.gsi.gov.uk

INTERNATIONAL ENQUIRY FORM
This form must be submitted by your International Liaison Officer
ENQUIRER'S DETAILS
Name & Rank : Dc John Hughes
Agency : LEICESTERSHIRE POLICE
Contact Details : (Tel & Email) : 0116 2312169 john.hughes443@leicestershire.pnn.police.uk
Interpol Ref : (Where applicable) : 4H-2395710-07 - ACTION NR : A1356
Priority : Urgent/Normal : Urgent
Reason for Urgency : Risk to life-Missing person.
Operation Name : (If Applicable) : OPERATION TASK
Crime or Enquiry Type : Missing person - Madeleine McCann
Destination Countries : Spain and Germany
Form C Completed : Form C Attached :
SUBJECTS - Persons / Vehicles / Companies etc. :

A caller has reported a possible sighting of Madeleine McCann, 11am, 28th May 2007. Location given as a restaurant called 'TUNNELS', in an old castle at an area called Cap Y Corp, Alcossebra, Spain.
She was seen to leave with a man in a Volkswagen van, registered number 'xxxxxxx'.

REQUEST.

We request the Spanish Police check the location for any CCTV or witnesses.
We request the German vehicle keeper details.
Can the vehicle be circulated for a stop and search to be carried out if seen (SIRENE circulation please.)

DOCUMENTS ATTACHED / TO FOLLOW.

CRIMINALITY & ROLE OF THE ABOVE SUBJECTS.
This section MUST be graded as per the National 5x5x5 Intelligence system. The request will be rejected otherwise.

REPORT
------------

Table of Contents : APENSOS V, Volume 6, Supposed Sightings and Locations (FILE 06)....(PDF Page 166 )....Page 1358?"Copy of Email from DC Hughes, (as per Pages 1350 and 1354)"


Page 1358 (Page 1 of 1 )

Hughes John (DC)
______________
From : Hughes John (DC)
Sent : 4th June 2007 10.29
To : 'london@soca.x.gsi.gov.uk '
Subject : Leics enquiry form A1356
Attachments : Leics enquiry form A1356.doc

Can we ask for Spanish local enquiries and German vehicle keeper details for this enquiry please.
Thanks,

Dc John Hughes
------------

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ASSORTED_SIGHTINGS_6.htm

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Documented Evidence - Page 16 Empty Re: Documented Evidence

Post by Silentscope 09.09.21 14:36

This VW Van BMS 1049 was actually photographed by the reporting witness.
It would be nice to see the pictures.


Documented Evidence - Page 16 7ce50110


Table of Contents : APENSOS V, Volume 6, Supposed Sightings and Locations (FILE 06)....(PDF Pages 156-157 )....Pages 1347 to 1348?"Statement re sighting in Alcocebre, Spain" 

Page 1347 (Page 1 of 2 )

Priority 2

Incident Message : M1545 : Security Level : 4
Assessor/Receiver's Summary :
Date : 1st June 2007 : Time : 1300 : Priority : M
Type : Phone In
Code : MADE : Description : Madeleine Beth McCANN to include possible sightings


(Note : Here, is a handwritten entry of 10 lines, in the Portuguese Language, dated 4th June 2007, which refers to a reported sighting in ALCOCEBRE, Spain, on 28th May 2007. This entry has obscured most of this report)

The report then continues thus :

....................................................................go on in a volkswagen
van. I took a couple of photographs and the registration of the vehicle which is 'xxxxxxx' German registration.

How long was the child under observation ?

About 15 minutes.

At what distance and in what lighting ?

Normal daylight sunshine.

Was the observation impeded ?

Girl walked straight past me and observation was unobstructed.

(Note : On the righthand margin are 4 entries, A 1353, A1356, A1561 and A1365, which are Case Action Allocation reference numbers)


Page 1348 (Page 2 of 2 )

Has the witness seen the adult or child before and in what circumstances ?

No.

What is the time gap between the sighting and the contact with us ?

4 days.

Are you aware of any CCTV cameras in the area of the sighting or do you have any relevant photographic evidence in relation to it ?

Possibly, not sure.

Any other information the witness has that makes them now believe the child was or was not Madeleine ?

None.

Does the call-taker have any comments in relation to the person passing the information ?

No.


Person receiving/sending : Receiving:
Title/Rank/Id Number : DC 802
Forename(s) : Tony
Surname : WALDREN


https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ASSORTED_SIGHTINGS_6.htm#a5v6p1347to1348
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Post by Verdi 01.10.21 13:25

05-CARTAS ROGATORIAS (FILE 5) pages 1-2

1 to 2-Witness statement of Clarence Eden Mitchell 2008.04.28

Leicestershire Police Force
Witness Statement

Statement by Clarence Eden Mitchell

This statement consists of two pages, signed by me, is truthful and in accordance with my understanding.

Date 28th April 2008

I am the person referred to above, resident at the address previously provided to the police. Today, officers from the Leicestershire police force questioned me about some of the aspects related to the Madeleine McCann inquiry. I was informed that these questions were raised and officially requested by the Portuguese authorities. I am aware that my statement will be subject to the Portuguese Penal Code, as well as to Church law.
These are the replies that I can make to the following questions. In relation to how I met Gerry and Kate McCann and what my relationship with them is:

I met Gerry at the end of May 2007 when he returned to the UK after his daughter's disappearance. It was a circumstantial meeting at Leicestershire Police station. At the time I was working as part of the Consular Assistance Group, representing the foreigners department.

I as asked to return to Portugal with Mr McCann, where I met his wife. Later I became the McCann family's representative and I developed a good personal and professional relationship with them.

As regards my travel to Portugal; I travelled on the 22nd May 2007 and remained in Portugal until the middle of June. Since then, there was no need to return.

As regards my accommodation in Portugal, I stayed in a Mark Warner apartment in the Ocean Club, near to the apartment occupied by the McCann family. I did not notice anything strange in the apartment.

With regard to the moments that I spent with Kate and Gerry; I was with them daily for various hours, whilst I was in Portugal.
After my return to the UK I continued to be in daily contact with them and we would meet two or three times a week.

With regard to Kate and Gerry's behaviour; Their behaviour has been entirely of constant anguish, typical of parents who have lost their daughter in tragic circumstances. Everything that they said or did leads me to believe that they are completely innocent of involvement in the disappearance of Madeleine.

With regard to the various questions about the Renault Scenic: I often saw the car but I do not remember whether I was only inside the Renault Scenic once. I travelled as a front seat passenger on the night that we went to the charity concert in Lagos. Gerald McCann was the driver. The vehicle was packed with other family members.
I did not notice anything strange about the vehicle nor any unpleasant or intense smell.

I do not think that Kate or Gerry could have hidden Madeleine or transported her body anywhere in the car. In my opinion this is a ridiculous suggestion, given that they as well as the car were the object of intense observation by the media, day and night, during the whole time that I was with them. The car was always parked in front of a multitude from television channels and photographers. The car was always followed by photographers during the whole time.

I cannot think of any more information or explanations that could be relevant or that could help the investigation in any way.

This statement was made by me and is truthful in accordance with my understanding.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CLARENCE_EDEN_MITCHELL.htm

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Post by lisbon 21.10.21 18:05

I'm sorry if my question has been covered elsewhere else on this site, but the site is huge and Byzantine and I can't find any answer to it.

Does anyone know if the dogs could pick up cadaver scent if there had never been a body in the car? For example, if the car had been used to dispose of clothing or a blanket or sheet that had been wrapped around Madeleine's dead body, could there be enough transference of the odour for the cadaver dog to signal? Or is it necessary for Madeleine herself to be in the vehicle?
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Post by crusader 21.10.21 19:33

It is not necessary for Madeleine to have been in the McCann's hire car for the cadaver dog ( Eddie ) to signal.

Martin Grimes  suggested it was cadaver scent contamination that the dog was alerting to.

The blood dog ( Keela ) was put into the car and signalled the map pocket at the drivers side where the car key was found. She also signalled the drivers side in the boot.

PJ files 2186 to 2188.
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Post by Verdi 22.10.21 0:52

lisbon wrote:I'm sorry if my question has been covered elsewhere else on this site, but the site is huge and Byzantine and I can't find any answer to it.

Does anyone know if the dogs could pick up cadaver scent if there had never been a body in the car? For example, if the car had been used to dispose of clothing or a blanket or sheet that had been wrapped around Madeleine's dead body, could there be enough transference of the odour for the cadaver dog to signal? Or is it necessary for Madeleine herself to be in the vehicle?

As a self confessed 'lurker' and websleuths devotee, I'm astonished to hear you have overlooked most certainly one of the finer points of this case .... Eddie and Keela's forensic evidence!

It's called transference or transfer evidence - elementary my dear Watson!

Or you could phone a friend  onphone  the forum appears to attracting quite a few websleutharian migrants.

I take that as a backhanded compliment, albeit nefarious by intent winkwink  !

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Post by lisbon 22.10.21 6:41

@ Verdi

I feel from your last two posts to me that you suspect that I am some kind of shill who has joined in order to mislead the forum. In my first post here, I made it clear that I was very sceptical about what seems the predominant theory on here - the idea that MM died on Sunday or Monday of the week. I also made it clear that I am very sceptical about the innocence of the McCanns. I assure you that I am not a shill, and I am happy not to post again if you would prefer that as one of the site moderators.

I would also like to say I am not a Websleuths 'devotee'. I can't prove it, of course, but I have never posted there and largely lost interest in it because in my opinion the MM section has been taken over by a group of people who are pushing the CB scenario in order to protect the McCanns, and, although many of the earlier posts are interesting and informative, the contemporary posts are not.

Re. the dogs. Of course I am familiar with their search and with the concept of transference. Almost everything I have read, though, assumed that the evidence of the dogs showed that MM's body was in the car, and I wanted confirmation, if possible, that mere transference to clothing or material would be strong enough to elicit a signal after three weeks (especially if it had been thoroughly washed before the hire car was used to take it somewhere far away - perhaps en route to Huelva).  

I asked this for this reason: On one level, the signalling of the dogs caused enormous problems for the McCanns, but in one sense it actually helped them, because it means people who broadly follow Amaral's theory now needed to explain how the McCanns could keep a dead body from decomposing (freezers etc). For me, this is the core problem in Amaral's theory. But if it is certain that clothing or material would be enough for the dog to signal, that problem goes away, since there is no need to believe that MM's body was ever in the hire car and a walk down to the beach carrying a tennis bag would be enough to remove the body, either on 3 May or before.

As I said, if you wish me to leave the group, I will.
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Post by Jill Havern 22.10.21 8:06

Documented Evidence - Page 16 Fluids11

If the dogs alerted to scent only, due to transference, why would Amaral say there was bodily fluid in the car?

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Post by crusader 22.10.21 8:11

Eddie alerted to cadaver scent, Keela found actual evidence of blood.
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Post by Silentscope 22.10.21 9:59

Snipped from an earlier post by Jill on another thread:


As for Snr. Amaral referring to the sample from the boot as blood, consider this:

Keela (blood only dog), alerted to the boot; specifically the area marked 10.
It was also visually thought to be blood.
DNA confirmed by John Lowe of FSS.
DNA can only come from tissues such as blood, sweat, skin, semen, saliva etc.
As all other fluids from the body would have glowed under inspection, anything other than blood can be ruled out.
The assumption that the sample was in fact blood, is a perfectly reasonable one to make.

Oh one more thing... 

Stuart Prior of Leicestershire police force, who was with Goncalo Amaral, at the time they were discussing the DNA results, stated that in England, the results would have been enough to arrest the McCanns.


Silentscope- maybe the thawing process allowed fluids to saturate the boot carpet / flooring, which then dripped onto the wheel arch underneath? 


Members might find this case interesting for comparison Link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Suzanne_Pilley
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Post by lisbon 22.10.21 11:17

Jill Havern wrote:Documented Evidence - Page 16 Fluids11

If the dogs alerted to scent only, due to transference, why would Amaral say there was bodily fluid in the car?


So, if I understand you correctly, this would mean that MM's body must have been in the car, and not just bloodied material or clothes?
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Post by Guest 22.10.21 12:42

your formulation is to easy, bodily fluids are not longer bound to a body perse, they could be anywhere except no longer in a body. 

they had to get there, if we trust the investigation on their informed opinion, have been fluid on a certain time, and for that they have to become in separation of said body. 

because there could be always the possibility, that bodily fluids become separate of a body, you can not say, that body and the relict bodily fluids have been in the same place. 

the informed opinion states a kind of dried fluids, possibly from a body. so you get the following possibilities, it could be directly transferred from said body, but it could also be transferred from something that could hold bodily fluids in a liquid phase, that could leaked out into the  back of that car. 

cloth would have to be very drenched in fluids before it start leaking. something that could hold fluids far better like a plastic bag, or other thing that could act as a container, and that was able to let a fluid leak out is also possible. 

there is no good rapport on said findings in the files. so we could only interpret from what we are told and known or expected circumstances.  

it was never said that there was a wet spot, so logically, also from the local climate at that time it was a in situ dried substance. and the dogs did react to that place. a experienced investigator would then have his experienced eye and mind loose on those findings, made samples for further research, and most times would also make pictures and a sketch with the exact location.  after that most investigators would use then if they are available some forensic tools, and also use their hands and nose to such a finding. 

after that it is to the forensics labs to tell what is the residue, and is there any human dna present. if the residue is ever typed to an known substance, we do not know, it is never published. we do know that the samples of that residue did contain human dna. declared inconclusive because it would have come from more than one person. 

you can not do both testing on the same sample, for dna you have to break down the sample, to get the dna out of any cell material that contains dna. so that sample will be destroyed in the test itself. 
today it could maybe possible to use something as nirs testing, that could be tried before a sample goes in for dna. but these techniques were in its very early infancies in 2007. 

one of the things that did go wrong, was that the british forensic services, did communicated after the testing done for dna, that other testing in that lab was not possible. and if i read between the lines of the conversation by letters in the files, the portuguese investigation was expecting the could do also test for origin of the samples. like this one is from blood, this one is from saliva, etc. 

there is very little in the files about what was in the back of that car. all there is, is from amaral's books, and some snippets from the press. 
those parts of the investigation, was also done together with british investigators. 

we simply lack to much information to tell, if a body itself was there? the body and its package material, or just package material, or even a accidently happen transfer. 

investigators do not relay on anything, other than facts, facts can not change, but facts need circumstances, and all the rest is circumstantial, but together it will tell a story in the end. 

dna is a fact in itself, but it are the circumstances that will guide dna into evidence.
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Post by Verdi 22.10.21 13:54

@lisbon wrote:
I feel from your last two posts to me that you suspect that I am some kind of shill ....

Rest assured, the word never entered my mind.

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Post by Verdi 22.10.21 13:57

As it's attracting interest, later today I will move this discussion to the Documented Evidence thread.

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Post by Verdi 22.10.21 16:45

08-Processo Volume 8 pages 2186 to 2188

Dog inspection report of cars searched in subterranean
garage

Canine Inspection Report

Date 6 and 7 August 2007

Place Underground parking area of 1st of May Square, Portimao.

Participants: three PJ officers; two UK police experts; Eddy and Keela, the English Springer
[Spaniels]

THE ENTIRE WORK WAS RECORDED IN IMAGE AND SOUND [on video]

On 6 August 2007, at 15h17, a canine inspection was performed in the following motor cars, this
being done on level -4 of the above-mentioned underground car park:

[list of cars: Opel Corsa; Fiat Punto; Peugeot 205; Renault Scenic; Skodia Fabia; VW Transporter;
Nissan Patrol; VW Passat; Audi A4; Renault Kangoo.]

Thus, at the hour indicated the work began, with the dog Eddy, that detects cadaver odour,
examining the whole level of the underground car park where the vehicles were parked, it having
been verified the following result:

15h27 - the dog 'marked' car number 4 - Renault Scenic - rental vehicle currently used by Gerry
and Kate McCann.

Thus, the Renault Scenic vehicle was moved to parking level -3 and subjected to an expert
examination by officers from the Police Science Laboratory and another canine inspection that
began at 03h49 on 7 August 2007 by the dog Keela, that detects traces of human blood, it having
been verified the following result:

03h53 - the dog 'marked' an area of the lower right-hand side of the interior part of the baggage
compartment of the car;

04h11 - the dog 'marked' the 'tidy' compartment [map/glove pocket] on the side of the driver's door,
which was found to contain the car key, the plastic electronic card type, with a key-ring of the
Budget rental company.

In order to confirm that the dog had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the
map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car
and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car
park.

At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.

At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car
key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.

At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm


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Post by Verdi 22.10.21 16:53

Transfer Evidence

Transfer evidence is defined as any evidential substance or particle such as blood , fluids , hairs, fibers , paint, and skin that is exchanged between an assailant and the victim or the scene of the crime. Such evidence can transfer either from the criminal to the victim or from the victim to the criminal. It can also be transferred into or out of the crime scene. This transfer often occurs when forcible contact occurs between persons, vehicles, or objects. For example, when glass fragments from one automobile are found on another vehicle, an exchange of transfer evidence has occurred. Different forms of transfer evidence can be small foreign materials such as food particles carried by the perpetrator to the crime scene and left behind, or identifying materials such as the victim's hairs or skin particles carried away from the scene on clothing. Other small particles of transfer evidence may lodge in the hair or under fingernails, or in some other way attach themselves to persons key to the criminal investigation.

An important forensic principle that involves transfer evidence is the Locard's exchange principle . Proposed in 1910 by Dr. Edmond Locard , the principle states that whenever there is contact between two objects (whether either are a living thing or not), there is a transfer of material between them. It is therefore the responsibility of forensic experts to find that transfer evidence, however difficult it may be to locate.

Transfer evidence often plays a critical role in hit-and-run accidents involving a pedestrian hit by a driver. When investigators locate the wrongdoer and his vehicle, it is common to find blood, pieces of clothing, and skin from the victim on the vehicle and pieces of paint or broken glass on the victim that has been transferred from the driver's vehicle.

The principal investigative value of transfer evidence is its ability to be traced. When it is found on a suspect it connects the suspect with the scene of the alleged crime or with the alleged victim. A suspect, who carries away fragments, small materials, or tissues that are clearly identifiable with the victim, can be definitely associated with a particular crime when such transfer evidence is found. Victims who scratch an assailant often lodge minute skin cells, clothing fibers, and other materials from the assailant's body and clothing under their fingernails. These materials can be retrieved by forensic investigators and used as evidence against the alleged criminal.

https://www.encyclopedia.com/science/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/transfer-evidence

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