Was Madeleine seen after Sunday?

Lizzy Hideho Taylor
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‎HiDeHo CONTROVERSY of Madeleine McCann
23 hrs ·

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I CHALLENGE anyone to find a statement that could be considered PROOF that Madeleine was alive during the week... Was Madeleine seen after SUNDAY?

I did not come to the conclusion that something may have happened to her earlier in the week on a whim... I discovered some MAJOR discrepancies started happening on Tuesday and researched all the statements to try to pinpoint the day she was last seen... SUNDAY LUNCHTIME!

I have TWO VERY LONG threads collating some of the research. I don't 'guess' I worked hard to try to find ANYTHING that I considered proof... In 6 years or more, I have NEVER found anything...

Note: It doesn't mean she wasn't seen, but there is nothing to prove she was!

1) Title: People that saw Madeleine during the holiday
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2) Title: Did ANYONE see Madeleine during the holiday?
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Get'emGonçalo wrote:Lizzy Hideho Taylor
to
‎HiDeHo CONTROVERSY of Madeleine McCann
23 hrs ·

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I CHALLENGE anyone to find a statement that could be considered PROOF that Madeleine was alive during the week... Was Madeleine seen after SUNDAY?

I did not come to the conclusion that something may have happened to her earlier in the week on a whim... I discovered some MAJOR discrepancies started happening on Tuesday and researched all the statements to try to pinpoint the day she was last seen... SUNDAY LUNCHTIME!

I have TWO VERY LONG threads collating some of the research. I don't 'guess' I worked hard to try to find ANYTHING that I considered proof... In 6 years or more, I have NEVER found anything...

Note: It doesn't mean she wasn't seen, but there is nothing to prove she was!

1) Title: People that saw Madeleine during the holiday
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2) Title: Did ANYONE see Madeleine during the holiday?
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Very interesting indeed.

So if HideHo/Lizzie is right in doubting whether there is any credible evidence that Madeleine was seen after Sunday...

...it would follow, as night follows day, that there would also be no credible evidence that she was heard after Sunday. 

And that would put an even larger question mark over Mrs Pamela Fenn's claim over the 'crying incident' - being discussed here:  [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

In any case, the interview given by Mrs Fenn to journalists where she says: "Ignore what I'm supposed to have said, it's all rubbish" sounds like the authentic voice of Mrs Fenn. Was she put up to making that curious statement about the 75 minutes' continuous sobbing, Tranner-gate-man, and the non-existent burglary which happened 1/2/3/several weeks earlier where she tried to grab the burglar's ankles as he leapt from a first-floor window?

HideHo's very detailed explanation and hypothesis also undermines the theory of Goncalo Amaral, supported by e.g. Pat Brown, 'Textusa' and 'Unterdenteppichgekehrt', that Madeleine must have died after 6pm on Thursday 3rd May.

HideHo is clearly suggesting - and with good reason - that Madeleine 'disappeared' long before then

Posted by HiDeHo

RE:People that saw Madeleine during the holiday
(Date Posted:26/09/2015 12:35 PM)

So Kate was relaxing on a sunlounger and watching Madeleine whizzing down a waterslide while Gerry was playing tennis?

Statements claim that they went down to the pool around 1.30pm and the picture was taken at 2.29pm. Rachael and Jane were playing tennis at this time according to their statements but Rachael claims to have seen Madeleine for the last time while she was playing mini tennis with no mention of the McCanns or Madeleine in this area at that time. (never mind several other discrepancies from Rachael regarding that)

Jane claims that Madeleine shouted through the fence.

Gerry was not known to be playing tennis at this time and I have yet to see a picture of the waterslide that Madeleine spent time on, prior to going to the play area for footbal.

I am not saying that the Boyds did not meet Madeleine but this article does not offer itself as proof that they did! imo

Get'emGonçalo wrote:
Are there any of the above witnesses that REALLY DID SEE MADELEINE? 

I encourage anyone to show me one witness that, according to their statement, PROBABLY saw Madeleine during the week.

Can't help you there, I'm afraid, @ HideHo.

But I can add yet another dodgy witness to your long list - namely, Philip Edmonds, Director of the world's largest steel corporation, Stemcor - married into the great Oppenheimer family, and nephew of the woman primarily responsible for letting children be abuse in Islington children's homes for a decade: Labour peer, Lady Margaret Hodge.  

He claimed he had a photo of Madeleine playing in the background in the Ocean Club playground on Thursday 3rd May, with his three boys in the foreground.

He claims he gave it to the police.

Neither he, nor the police, nor the McCanns have ever produced this alleged photographic evidence that Madeliene was alive on 3rd May

Posted by HiDeHo

RE:People that saw Madeleine during the holiday
(Date Posted:26/09/2015 12:36 PM)


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mrs Fenn may have heard one or both of the twins, crying and in distress at not being with her elder sister . . . (or parent, obviously) !

That would leave her evidence intact, with no reason to suspect her of mistake or fabrication.
Daddy daddy = Maddie Maddie

Posted by HiDeHo

RE:People that saw Madeleine during the holiday
(Date Posted:26/09/2015 12:49 PM)

T7

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Courtesy of thread by Snowy on Maddie Case Files

Catriona Baker - last saw MBM before 6 pm on 3rd May, when collected by Kate - Credibility of witness not confirmed (questionable creche records and invitation and trip to Rothley in November after which her Rogatory statement has many 'issues' imo)

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Cecilia Dias Firmino - saw MBM at breakfast when she worked on Tue, Wed & thurs, but does not specify exactly when seen (Note: conflicting evidence on where breakfast was taken by the family, and when) - Probably mistaken identity as McCanns did not go to breakfast during the week when she was working

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Charlotte Pennington - told MBM stories and talked to her on 3rd May -  Credibility of witness not confirmed (Claims to have seen the twins in their cot and yet early statement says she did not enter apartment.)

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Elisa Dias Romao - saw MBM every lunchtime, worked Tue, Wed & Thurs - Confusing statement but claims this -On this same day at around 17H30, she remembers that she left the reception to collect her earnings and she does not remember having seen Madeleine or her parents enter or in the interior of the TAPAS.

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Emma Wilding - saw Gerry book MBM in to creche on the 3rd May and also saw her in the afternoon - Does not know  Madeleine well need translation check -

When questioned she states that on May 3, 2007 it was the father that took Madeleine, as was customary, between 0900 and 0930; she remembers that she just said “hello” to him, because as Madelede (sic) did not belong to her group she did not talk to him very much.

She only noticed Madeleine and not her father, and nothing seemed abnormal or unusual. ?

She is not sure whether during the morning Madeleine’s group had outdoor activities, mainly at the pool; she does remember that around 1230 Madelew’s (sic) father went to fetch her for lunch. 

When questioned, she states that on Wednesday May 2, her group and Madeleine’s group went to the beach, but she is not sure if Madeleine was in the group or not, and does not remember having seen anybody specifically taking direct and close-up photographs of the children.  

She remembers that during the afternoon of May 3 Madeleine was at the Mini Club, but she does not remember at what time she arrived, and if on that day Madeleine accompanied the other children at 1645 as was customary.

She is also not sure whether her parents joined her during the snack, as was customary.

---

Georgina Jackson - gave MBM a tennis lesson with other children on Tue 1st May , 10-11am. - After being shown the younger picture, can it be taken for granted that she would remember Madeleine actually being in the group or did she 'presume'?

She relates it was one of the preferred activities of the McCann couple in that they had several lessons throughout the days and up to the date of the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, it being that the child also had a class, on Tuesday, 1 May (10-11h00), that class [in which] she was among a group of children was conducted by the deponent.

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Jeronimo Salcedes - bartender, saw MBM on the 3rd May near the restaurant. (note: question about this because although it appears in the 'snippets' post in the staff thread in the Files section, his actual statement saye he couldn't recall having seen them) - Cannot remember seeing her


- He saw the missing Madelaine, for the last time, yesterday at 16.45h next to the restaurant; ?

In spite of having already observed many photos of Madeleine he claims that he could not state with any certainty that he had seen her at any moment, the same goes for whom he now knows to be her twin siblings. The specifics of his work do not leave him with much time to focus his attention on the children that were around, although as he has stated previously he worked with children of Madeleine’s approximate age for almost four years.

Since Madeleine’s disappearance, I have seen her picture many times in the media, but I cannot honestly affirm that I remember seeing her in person before the disappearance from the Ocean Club. There were many children and I never paid much attention to any of them. 

Maria M A Jose - saw MBM 4.30pm on 3rd May, having tea at the restaurant. - Was mistaken and probably saw Lilly at the creche next to the Tapas


after seeing pictures of the missing child on television, that she realised who the girl was, referring to her as Madeleine (the name used by the journalists) remembering only at that moment that [size=24]she had seen her during the meals provided to the children at the crèche, and which take place at the restaurant where she works and during arrivals at the crèche where Madeleine spent the day, located immediately next to the restaurant.the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week

Another example of mistakenly thinking that one of the other tapas children was Madeleine?



Others, like Daniel Stuk and several other creche workers, saw MBM during the week, but do not specify days.

So, to recap, we have four (or two) members of the catering/bar staff who saw her,
three nannies,
and one tennis coach.


[/size]Other Witnesses

Bridget O'Donnell
Jeremy (Jes/Jez) Wilkins
Stephen Carpenter
Maria (Cleaner)
Daniel Stuk
Georgina(Tennis coach)

Police Files
Goncalo Amaral

Not in Files
Miguel Matias, manager of the beach-side Paraíso restaurant
Alice & ? - Took children sailing May 3rd



Catriona Baker - last saw MBM before 6 pm on 3rd May, when collected by Kate

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Cecilia Dias Firmino - saw MBM at breakfast when she worked on Tue, Wed & thurs, but does not specify exactly when seen (Note: conflicting evidence on where breakfast was taken by the family, and when)

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Charlotte Pennington - told MBM stories and talked to her on 3rd May

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Elisa Dias Romao - saw MBM every lunchtime, worked Tue, Wed & Thurs


On this same day at around 17H30, she remembers that she left the reception to collect her earnings and she does not remember having seen Madeleine or her parents enter or in the interior of the TAPAS.

Witness Statement 

Elisa Angela Dias Romao

Date: 2007.05.09
Time: 11H55
Professions: Reception Worker, Luz Ocean Club

That she comes to the process as a witness.

The witness works at the Luz Ocean Club, on contract. Her functions include attending to the reception area of the Garden Club (where the Millenium restaurant is found). 

This is the second period in which she has worked for the LOC, always in the same role.

Her days off are Sundays and Mondays.

Regarding the investigation, the witness states that she became aware of the same, on Friday. That morning, when she showed up for work, she heard talk that a British child had disappeared the night prior and that since then no one knows of her whereabouts.

With relation to the other elements gathered afterwards, the witness confirms that she became aware of them via the media and other talk between the guests and colleagues. 

She firmly believes that no one knows precisely how everything happened. 

Regarding the group linked to the couple and the missing child and her two siblings, she only became aware afterwards that Madeleine’s siblings were twins. The witness remembers seeing them in the Garden Club, near the pool and the Tapas restaurant. 

They appeared a normal family, as did the entire group. She did not notice any strange or suspicious details. 

When questioned, the witness clarifies that she worked at the Garden Club reception on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays, at a time covering the lunch hour. She remembers seeing the couple with their children as they had to pass the reception to leave the area. She next saw them head in the direction of the apartment where the witness believes they had lunch. 

She believes that they left always between 12H30 and 13H00.

Around 14H00 the couple would return around 14H00, in fact, most of the couples would return their children to the crèche around this time. She does not know if the three McCann children were together given their different ages.

When questioned, the witness states that the parents would spend the majority of the time inside the Garden Club, in activities such as playing tennis, as they were a group of four couples (the reservation was always made for 9 adults). They would only all meet together for dinner. 

The couple would only leave the Garden Club after the children’s tea, which was served by the nannies in that area around 17H00/18H00.

It was only after this period that they would leave with the children in the direction of their respective apartments. 

Questioned, states that she was left with the notion that the four couples always took their children when they went out or that they (the children) never left the area without their parents.

Her normal working day was from 09.00 – 17.00 and therefore she was never present when the group was dining.

Her working day was normal that day and she did not see anything of interest to the investigation.

On this same day at around 17H30, she remembers that she left the reception to collect her earnings and she does not remember having seen Madeleine or her parents enter or in the interior of the TAPAS.

She returned to the reception around 19H00 and finished work shortly afterwards. She became aware of the disappearance the next day (Friday) via a colleague. 

Questioned, she does not remember if this year someone entered the reception or frequented the pool or restaurant without having the authorisation to do so. In past years, namely the past year, various children and adults have entered without authorisation, intending to use the pool. 

She has never noticed any individuals or vehicles in the immediate areas of the resort that appeared suspicious or abnormal.

Likewise, she does not remember anyone questioning her regarding the functioning of the resort or in particular about the functioning of the children’s services. 

And nothing more was said.

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Emma Wilding - saw Gerry book MBM in to creche on the 3rd May and also saw her in the afternoon


When questioned she states that she knows Madelede’s (sic) parents because although Madeleine is not in her group, she frequently speaks to her parents, and finds their concerns and interests normal and typical of parents.

When questioned she states that there are parents that leave their respective children during the whole day and every day at the clubs, and that this is normal within British culture. With respect to Madeleine, she states that she spent most of her time at the Mini Club. The children began arriving at 0900 until 1230 when their respective parents collected them for lunch, and returned at 1430 until 1645 when the Infants’ teachers took the children to eat something appropriate for their age at the Tapas restaurant. Most of the parents met their respective children here, and the children then remained in their parents’ care.

When questioned she states that on May 3, 2007 it was the father that took Madeleine, as was customary, between 0900 and 0930; she remembers that she just said “hello” to him, because as Madelede (sic) did not belong to her group she did not talk to him very much.

She only noticed Madeleine and not her father, and nothing seemed abnormal or unusual. ?

She is not sure whether during the morning Madeleine’s group had outdoor activities, mainly at the pool; she does remember that around 1230 Madelew’s (sic) father went to fetch her for lunch. 

When questioned, she states that on Wednesday May 2, her group and Madeleine’s group went to the beach, but she is not sure if Madeleine was in the group or not, and does not remember having seen anybody specifically taking direct and close-up photographs of the children.  

She remembers that during the afternoon of May 3 Madeleine was at the Mini Club, but she does not remember at what time she arrived, and if on that day Madeleine accompanied the other children at 1645 as was customary.

She is also not sure whether her parents joined her during the snack, as was customary.

During this period of time she did not notice anybody or anything out of the ordinary, as her attention was wholly focused on the children.

That night, at around 2200 she learned that Madeleine had disappeared, and together with her colleagues she helped look for her.

As regards Madeleine, she did not spent much time with her because she was not in her group; she did not know her well, but Madeleine appeared to be somewhat shy, this was noticeable the first days. Since she met her, she noticed nothing abnormal in any aspect that would point to Madeleine being a child that was out of the ordinary.

Georgina Jackson - gave MBM a tennis lesson with other children on Tue 1st May , 10-11am.


She relates it was one of the preferred activities of the McCann couple in that they had several lessons throughout the days and up to the date of the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, it being that the child also had a class, on Tuesday, 1 May (10-11h00), that class [in which] she was among a group of children was conducted by the deponent.

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Jeronimo Salcedes - bartender, saw MBM on the 3rd May near the restaurant. (note: question about this because although it appears in the 'snippets' post in the staff thread in the Files section, his actual statement saye he couldn't recall having seen them)



-------- JERONIMO TOMAS RODRIGUES SALCEDAS (Phone No "91 768 ####) - bartender:
- He saw the missing Madelaine, for the last time, yesterday at 16.45h next to the restaurant;
- He did not notice if from the group of British citizens (in number 8 or 9) that yesterday dined in restaurant (which was partly made up of the parents of the missing [child]), someone left [absented themself] during such dinner;

 

 

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In spite of having already observed many photos of Madeleine he claims that he could not state with any certainty that he had seen her at any moment, the same goes for whom he now knows to be her twin siblings. The specifics of his work do not leave him with much time to focus his attention on the children that were around, although as he has stated previously he worked with children of Madeleine’s approximate age for almost four years.

When asked, he says that many children would be present around the Tapas restaurant during the day, as just outside the restaurant there is a small playground, near to the pool. The presence of children would reduce significantly at night time, also because there were fewer people dining in the restaurant, about 20 – 30 meals were served.

---

 

 remember being at work in the Tapas the night of the disappearance. I also remember the group of adults that holidayed with Madeleine, including the parents as they were frequent Tapas Bar dinner guests. 

I would normally see them during the day if I went to the complex for a swim, or when they were going to get their children for lunch in the zone next to the Tapas. Nothing in their behavior called my attention. They dined in the restaurant every night from Sunday until Thursday when Madeleine disappeared. The table was booked then for 19H30 to 20H00. It was nine adults in total, four couples and an older woman who was also with them. I always found them educated, good clients. They appeared to get along well amongst each other and each time I served the table they would comment on the food. It was a happy group who would often laugh during dinner. There was a man who particularly stood out from the rest of the group as she spoke a lot and told many jokes. At this time, I did not know who he was, but later found out it was Madeleine McCann’s father. Frequently, when I served the table I noticed that one or two elements of the group had left the restaurant. I could not imagine where they had gone to. After seeing the news stories, I figured that they had gone to check on their children. On some occasions, I also saw some infant monitors on the same table but never related this to the facts.

In relation to alcohol consumption, it never appeared to me to be excessive. The wine was included in the dinner at Tapas and the functionaries were very generous in this respect. The permission was approximately one bottler per person . According to what I remember, and relative to the consumption of alcohol, there were seven bottles between the nine adults. I believe that on the first or second night they dined in the Tapas, they drank a bit more, perhaps eight or nine bottles of wine. I believe that they were also offered liquor this night, as they had been such good clients. The behavior of the table did not change the night in questions. If anything, the group jested more than usual but no one appeared drunk.

Generally, they left the Tapas at 23h30/midnight, at times together and at other times in small groups. On the night in which they drank more than usual, they left a bit later, perhaps towards 00h30-01h00. I remember this detail because I was supposed to finish work at 00H00 and I wanted to go home. They always left on good terms and always wished the staff good night. 

On the night Madeleine disappeared, everything appeared normal. I remember that when I took notice of the disappearance, I had been in the restaurant speaking with my two colleagues—Ze and Ricardo who were on break. I returned to the restaurant and noticed that the table of nine was empty with the exception of the older woman. I went over to the table and joked with her: “They’ve left you alone?” She responded more of less with these words: “No, they went to see if the little girl was there.” I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleine’s father, running to the pool and to the children’s play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty. 

I went to find Ze and Ricardo to give them the news and to get their help in searching for the missing girl. I saw the head of the Milenium Restaurant in the Tapas and asked him to telephone the restaurant.

I ran out of the Tapas and noticed that some of the childcare works of the Mark Warner had begun to arrive. At the point I left the Tapas I heard a scream from a woman I did not know. I do not know who screamed, but I had never heard a similar cry. I cannot even describe it but thought it had come from the child’s mother. I went to the reception with one of the child care workers whose name I do not remember. One of the employees looked to be organizing the searches and told us the name of the child. We were sent to the beach zone and looked in all the alleys and called out the name of the child but did not find her. Later, we returned to the Tapas where we found John, the Manager of Mark Warner. There were many people now, perhaps 40 including the Mark Warner personnel. We were divided into groups and Ewan and Rob (both employed by Mark Warner), my cousin, Miguel, and I went in a Mark Warner vehicle to search a beach zone which included a construction site. Again, we did not see any signs of the child and after a telephone we returned to the Tapas. 

At this point more people were at the location, including residents of Praia da Luz. A man named Matt who owned a club in the locale, seemed to now be the operational front. A big part of our group was sent to the beach; we formed a sort of human extension cord in our searches. We finally returned to the Tapas around 04H00. We were sent home at the time. 

I do not know when the police were called but the first time I saw them was around

23h00-23h00 that night. 

Since Madeleine’s disappearance, I have seen her picture many times in the media, but I cannot honestly affirm that I remember seeing her in person before the disappearance from the Ocean Club. There were many children and I never paid much attention to any of them.

Posted by HiDeHo

Maria M A Jose - saw MBM 4.30pm on 3rd May, having tea at the restaurant.
The cook at the tapas was one of the 'credible' witnesses that 'saw' Madeleine at 16.30 Thursday May 3.

Something I have just noticed regarding the statement of Maria Manuela Antonia José Tapas Cook who has been considered as a reliable witness seeing Madeleine at 16.30 on May 3rd.

Reading her statement she refers to recognising Madeleine from the photo (of younger Madeleine) 

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seeing her during the day in the creche next to the restaurant (tapas)

Madeleine was not in that creche...but L***y was!

Quote:
Dave would take L*** over to the kids club which was back near the, behind the Tapas Bar area”.



after seeing pictures of the missing child on television, that she realised who the girl was, referring to her as Madeleine (the name used by the journalists) remembering only at that moment that she had seen her during the meals provided to the children at the crèche, and which take place at the restaurant where she works and during arrivals at the crèche where Madeleine spent the day, located immediately next to the restaurant.the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week

Another example of mistakenly thinking that one of the other tapas children was Madeleine?

Posted by HiDeHo

RE:People that saw Madeleine during the holiday
(Date Posted:26/09/2015 12:51 PM)

There are many people who claim to have seen Madeleine during the week of the holiday, up to and including May 3rd.

After scrutinising the statements in general, there are many discrepancies that appear to start earlier in the week and for this reason I am of the opinion that Madeleine may have died (or became fatally ill) earlier than May 3rd.

Many of the witness statements that claim to have seen her are non specific, whether by date or no details confirming it was Madeleine.

The possibility of some of these witnesses being mistaken is quite high.

One of the other T7 children was very similar in age and appearance and not only COULD have been mistaken as being Maddie but it was probably this little girl that WAS mistaken for her..

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Revealed: Gerry McCann's last dance with little Madeleine

Last updated at 18:26 19 September 2007




A restaurant owner who is one of the last people to have seen Madeleine McCann yesterday told how she danced with her father on the seafront just hours before she vanished.

Miguel Matias, who has never spoken before, said the McCanns seemed a perfectly normal family and there was nothing to hint at the tragedy to come.

Kate and Gerry McCann, the children and their holiday friends spent an hour at restaurant Paraiso on the beach of Praia da Luz, where the youngsters ate their dinner.

Scroll down for more ...

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The last picture of Madeleine taken with Gerry and Amelie by the pool

Mr McCann played with his eldest daughter in the sand in front of the balcony and pushed her on a swing before calling her to the table for food and an ice-cream.

Mr Matias said: "It was a perfectly normal, relaxed, happy, family scene. The little girl was even dancing on the esplanade with her dad to the sound of music that was playing. "We couldn't believe it when we found out what had happened because nothing we saw gave any sign of what was coming.

"We didn't see anyone suspicious looking at the girl or the people on the other tables. Nor did we see anything out of the ordinary between the families and the children.'

Mr Matias's evidence confirms Madeleine was alive and well at 6pm, when the family left the restaurant.

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Hoping to turn the tide of suspicion: Kate McCann yesterday

Previously 2.29pm has been the latest time known to the general public, when the last photograph of her was taken as she played in the pool with her father and sister Amelie.

Mr Matias handed over CCTV footage of the McCanns to police a few days after Madeleine's disappearance. It is not clear whether detectives were given the CCTV hard-drive or copies of the images.

---

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Madeleine McCann's last dance with father


By Caroline Gammell in Praia da Luz 
Published: 4:24PM BST 19 Sep 2007

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Maddy has been missing since May

Madeleine McCann spent the last few hours before she disappeared dancing with her father Gerry on the beach, a restaurant owner has recalled.  

The four-year-old was seen enjoying ice-cream and fruit juice alongside her family in Praia da Luz on May 3.


Only hours later, her bed at the Mark Warner Ocean Club apartment was discovered empty and Portugal’s biggest missing person’s investigation was launched. 

The little girl’s happy afternoon was described by Miguel Matias, the owner of the beachside restaurant Paraiso, overlooking the sea in the resort town.

He said she enjoyed an early evening meal with her father, mother Kate and younger twin brother and sister, two-year-old’s Sean and Amelie.

They were joined by several friends and their children as they sat on outdoor tables at the restaurant.

"It was a perfectly normal, relaxed, happy, family scene," said Mr Matias. "The little girl was even dancing on the esplanade with her dad to the sound of music that was playing."

The restaurateur said he was stunned when he realised it was Madeleine who was missing.

"We couldn’t believe it when we found out what had happened because nothing we saw gave any hint of the coming tragedy," he said. "We didn’t see anyone suspicious looking at the girl or the people on the other tables.

"Nor did we see anything out of the ordinary between the families and the children."

After Madeleine disappeared, Mr Matias realised he was one of the last people to see the little girl.

He contacted the Portuguese police and handed over CCTV footage of the family spending their last few happy hours at his restaurant.

---

[size]

Other reasons to question my thoughts are that Catriona Baker, Madeleine's nanny claims to have been with her right up until Thursday 3rd

The creche records show she was in the creche every day, apparently dropped of by her parents but there are many questions surrounding the validity of these forms

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The police files and Goncalo Amaral report with apparent certainty that Madeleine was seen on May 3rd.

I have to question whether there is  requirement for them not to deviate from the times stated by witnesses as the statements are to be considered truthful and exact until a court proves otherwise.

Opinions would be subject to libel and therefore they are limited to contain the thesis to within the boundaries of witness statements.

Their 'proof' of an alternative scenario may be held within 'evidence' that is not admissible in court such as mobile phone interceptions or files that are not released to the public.

Charlotte Pennington is considered as one of the last people to see her but her statements and articles are so full of discrepancies as to not be close to reliable.

Other nannies and OC staff may have mistaken the other tapas child for Madeleine.  their statements show nothing to indicate it was definitely Madeleine.

One cleaner described the family and Madeleine leaving their apartment and this, to me is one of the few credible sightings of Madeleine but it dates back to  Sunday
April 29th.

Georgina the tennis coach may be credible, and, although she refers to Madeleine it is possible she was just informed that she was (supposedly) in the tennis class on Tuesday morning. [/size]

Posted by HiDeHo

RE:People that saw Madeleine during the holiday
(Date Posted:26/09/2015 12:55 PM)

Posted by HiDeHo

RE:People that saw Madeleine during the holiday
(Date Posted:26/09/2015 1:02 PM)


Witness Statement
Maria Manuela Antonia José
Date: 06 – 05 - 2007
Place of Work: OC

She has worked at the OC, since 25 March 2006, in Luz, as a cook in one of the restaurants within the complex, called the Tapas Restaurant.

With relation to the facts being investigated, she confirms that on the 4 May 2007, at about 18h30, when arriving for work at the complex, she heard from her supervisor, Steve, that a female child who was staying with her parents and siblings at one of the OC apartments had gone missing on the previous day (3rd May 2007).

When she was informed about the disappearance she did not realise which child this was, it was only later, upon watching the television news that night and after seeing pictures of the missing child on television, that she realised who the girl was, referring to her as Madeleine (the name used by the journalists) remembering only at that moment that she had seen her during the meals provided to the children at the crèche, and which take place at the restaurant where she works and during arrivals at the crèche where Madeleine spent the day, located immediately next to the restaurant.

Upon questioning, the witness confirms that on the day of the disappearance, she worked at the restaurant from 10h00 to 18h45, when, having finished her shift, she went home, where she remained with her 13 year old son until approximately 10h00 the following day (4th May).

On 4th May 2007, due to the fact that she had a medical appointment at the Lagos Health Centre followed by an appointment at the Portimão Court at 15h00, she only began work at 18h30 (dinner service, which lasts until 24h00).

With relation to the facts being investigated, she only knows what she heard from the media or from conversations with her colleagues.

Upon questioning, she states that the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 (4.30pm? or 5.30pm?)  on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week.

She information that it of use to the investigation, and has nothing more to add, but repeats that the girl was with her parents on holiday at the resort, together with her two twin siblings. 

She has no knowledge of any suspicious situation.

Reads, ratifies and signs.

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]........So she was, without doubt, seen on the 3rd??

answer: no

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The Mail on Sunday has also learned that within 24 hours of that interview Ms Baker was dispatched by Mark Warner to take up a new position in the Greek resort of San Agostino along with four other members of staff.
They were all linked to the seven holidaymakers who had eaten in the resort's tapas restaurant with Kate and Gerry McCann on the night of Madeleine's disappearance.
It is believed Ms Baker has since been reinterviewed by both British and Portuguese police but she has been told not to comment on the investigation.
The young nanny, described as 'fun and vivacious', has been deeply affected by Madeleine's disappearance, telling friends of nights without sleep and a complete loss of appetite.
Writing to one concerned friend nine days after Madeleine disappeared, she admitted: 'I was her nanny, so it's been tough for me, you wouldn't recognise me.
'It's hit me so hard I've hardly slept or eaten. My mum came to see me, but transferring me to "San Ag" has put me back at stage one as I am so stressed again.

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Post subject: Re: Madeleine was not seen alive on 3rd May
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:48 am

Something I have just noticed regarding the statement of Maria Manuela Antonia José Tapas Cook who has been considered as a reliable witness seeing Madeleine at 16.30 on May 3rd. Reading her statement she refers to recognising Madeleine from the photo (of younger Madeleine)  [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] seeing her during the day in the creche next to the restaurant (tapas) Madeleine was not in that creche...but L***y was! Quote: Dave would take L*** over to the kids club which was back near the, behind the Tapas Bar area”. after seeing pictures of the missing child on television, that she realised who the girl was, referring to her as Madeleine (the name used by the journalists) remembering only at that moment that she had seen her during the meals provided to the children at the crèche, and which take place at the restaurant where she works and during arrivals at the crèchewhere Madeleine spent the day, located immediately next to the restaurant.the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week Another example of mistakenly thinking that one of the other tapas children was Madeleine? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Processos, Volume III Pages 794 to 795 Witness statement  Paula Cristina da Costa Vieira  Date : 2007.05.09 Time: 12H10 Place: Lagos Name: Paula Cristina da Costa Vieira Profession: Cleaning Staff When she saw her photograph, and saw the images of the parents, she did remember having seen them, about two times—the child in question and her family when they were leaving the Millenium Club breakfast (around 9h30/10H00) and only because this was her time to the clean the reception of the establishment. Processos Vol III Pages 697 – 699 Witness Statement Sandra Maria Dos Santos Lourenco Murtinheira Date: 2007-05-08 Occupation: Cleaner Regarding the missing child, the witness believes that she may have seen her walking with one of the nannies. However, there are many families with children, and it is normal to see the children with their nannies carrying out their activities. Shinead Maria Vine (twins nanny) . She affirms that she saw Madeleine McCann once when she arrived during the week, but that she did not know, as the deponent was working only with the Toddler group;

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Quote:
Emma Wilding

When questioned she states that on May 3, 2007 it was the father that took Madeleine, as was customary, between 0900 and 0930; she remembers that she just said “hello” to him, because as Madelede (sic) did not belong to her group she did not talk to him very much.

She only noticed Madeleine and (not) her father, and nothing seemed abnormal or unusual.

She is not sure whether during the morning Madeleine’s group had outdoor activities, mainly at the pool; she does remember that around 1230 Madelew’s (sic) father went to fetch her for lunch.

When questioned, she states that on Wednesday May 2, her group and Madeleine’s group went to the beach, but she is not sure if Madeleine was in the group or not, and does not remember having seen anybody specifically taking direct and close-up photographs of the children.

She remembers that during the afternoon of May 3 Madeleine was at the Mini Club, but she does not remember at what time she arrived, and if on that day Madeleine accompanied the other children at 1645 as was customary.

She is also not sure whether her parents joined her during the snack, as was customary.


She claims she saw Madeleine's father drop her off but also that he picked her up!

It was Kate who 'supposedly' picked her up with Fiona on Thursday.

Does she have the day wrong?

The only days that Gerry picked Madeleine up was Monday and Tuesday!

She also claims the children went to the beach on Wednesday May 2nd. It was raining on Wednesday so they did not go.

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Catriona is crucial to determine that Madeleine was alive during the day and as improbable as it may seem that she was not entirely truthful about her statement I have tried to look at the possibilities that could lead to her statement not being entirely credible.

This topic is something I haven't yet figured out exactly in my mind but I try to keep a few things in mind.

Firstly, this is a case like no other and ANYTHING is possible.

Secondly, its very easy to make 'assumptions'.

We presume that each time a child is taken to the creche that the nanny stops what she is doing, goes over, helps sign the child in and takes them with her to engage in the activities.

Is it possible the book is left open for the parents to sign and they send their child in to join with the others with no acknowledgment, necessarily, from the nannies.

On Tuesday, ROB walked to the creche with Gerry to pick Madeleine and E**a up, yet he didn't sign the register. Only one child was booked out.

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In the afternoon both children were booked in at 2.30 Gerry signed Madeleine in and CAT signed in E**a at the same time. Madeleine was not signed out that afternoon and E**a was signed out by ROB.

Apart from Cat signing, it appears only one child could have been present.

CAT has said that she does not remember who picked Madeleine up and dropped her off on Thursday, so is it possible the forms could be filled in without her knowledge?

I don't like going the 'substitution' directon but is it at least POSSIBLE that Gerry signed the register at 9.00am ROB signed at 9.30 but only one child went into the creche.

They both went to pick up the creche but only one child emerged and Gerry signed for 'her'.

CAT recognised ROB to pick up E**a but Gerry signed the form without her knowing.

At 2.30 Gerry signed the register for Madeleine and somehow CAT realised E**a was there and signed her in, not realising that Madeleine wasn't there.

At 5.00 at the high tea ROB signed E**a out and no-one signed Madeleine out.

During the week and before there was any issue about a police investigation, how observant was Catriona?

She arrived at work, had 7 children in her care

LOBSTERS

Madeleine McCann
Ella O'Brien 
Jessica Berry 
Elizabeth Naylor 
Alexander Mann 
William Totman 
Tia Patel 

Unlike school, where children arrive routinely, they were dropped off at odd times and often did not go to the creche every day.

She looked after these children 5 days prior to the disappearance.

There was no 'routine' check of who was there and who was missing. It was random.

5 girls and two boys.

If Madeleine was not there, would she have noticed or quesioned?

Each day would have been another day at work after the night before.

Did she scrutinise the registration form to make sure that everyone was present as in a school atmosphere?

Is it possible that (if something happened) that Gerry was able to manipulate her in some way? She would not have known, at that point, the implications.

Each day, to her, would have been just another day with whichever children showed up.

After the disappearance, and in retrospect, she may have realised that she was not as vigilant as maybe she should have been and her first thought may have been to cover herself, just to keep her job if nothing else.

We don't know exactly what the creche scenario was, but we do know that she met up with Kate and Gerry the day before her May 6th statement. (coincidence?)

She was 'invited' and attended a meeting with them in Rothley in November (when were the Rogatory interviews initiated?)

She was 'removed' from Praia da Luz the following Friday and sent to Greece (I think?)

She suffered depression because of what happened (I believe)

She was an innocent party, a young girl who went to Portugal for the summer to combine work with a holiday abroad and became (through no fault of her own) involved in one of the biggest and strangest investigations that she could comprehend.

Did she see Madeleine on those last days or was there something in place to encourage her to say she did to avoid losing her job perhaps?

It seems improbable, but in this case ANYTHING is possible!

Her highlighted statements can be seen here...

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REFERENCE:

[size=36]TIMELINES - Creche Timeline Topics
[/size][You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ... ne-1-68648

[size=36]INDIVIDUAL TOPICS - Links & Info about Nannies/Creche
[/size][You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ... 80710.html

[size=36]DISCREPANCY TOPICS - Who Last Saw Madeleine?
[/size][You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ... 80252.html

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______________________________________________________________

I have been attempting to understand and 'fit' the police grids into the big picture.

I started working on a thread in Madeleine Forum
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ... 98583.html

I saw some differences between the times on the grids and the times shown on the creche forms as can be seen in the pink creche table for Sunday.

The BLUE is where the police grids are in agreement and the RED is where the times disagree.

I ran into a problem trying to understand the little boxes attributed to Catriona.

I am not sure they are totally relevant but trying to compare all those forms is confusing enough without trying to understand Portuguese in the meantime! [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] 

I came up with this for one of them

Quote:
May 1st AM
(ROTINA que no dia de ontem, recebeu a MADELEINE as 9.10 sendo a mesma entregue pelo pal) quecuido da MADELEINE, desde domingo 29.04.2007, diarement e ate as dia de ontem tendo felto sempre o mesmo horario

MAY 1st PM
foi-nos referido pela catriona, que os unicos dias que foram a praia foi na terca feira a tarde(ist may) entre as 15.30 as 16.30 na quart feira dia sequinte a mesma hora

was-in referred to by catriona, that the unicos days that were the beach has been in terca fair the afternoon(ist peuvent) between the 15.30 the 4.30 in quart fair day sequinte the same time


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Does anyone know if these grids have been scrutinised previously?

Are there any creche times that are of particular curiosity?

Posted by HiDeHo

RE:People that saw Madeleine during the holiday
(Date Posted:26/09/2015 1:05 PM)


T7

Rachael
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I just sat by the pool and read my book, sort of waiting for the tennis lesson and Kate, Kate was there and we sat together and had you know, chatted a bit, erm and then I think Diane might have been there as well, remember chatting to Kate cos we were talking about schools and that sort of thing, erm and holidays, erm and then I think it must have been at about ten thirty, Madeleine and E**a and their sort of group came to have a tennis lesson as part of their crèche activities, erm and Kate didn’t have her camera and Jane was there then as well and Jane took some photos of both Madeleine and E**a, that’s one, that poster of Madeleine with the tennis b*lls, that sort of pictures”. 00.51
00.51.21 1578 “That was taken on the”? 
Reply “Yeah that was that morning”. 
1578 “Thursday”? 
Reply “Yeah, erm so we sort of watched them have their tennis lesson, erm and there were a few other parents there, sort of taking photos and that sort of thing, erm and then they headed back off to crèche and then Matt came up from the beach and we had our tennis lesson at eleven with Dan,

“How many occasions did you see Madeleine on the Thursday”? 
Reply “Erm I think just really at, when she was doing the tennis, having her tennis lessons, as part of her activities, erm”. 
1578 “Is that the last time you saw her”? 
Reply “I think that was the last time I saw her yeah”. 



“I think you’ve already covered this one, when was the last time you saw Madeleine”?
Reply “Erm it was when she was having a tennis lesson, in the morning yeah, about probably between ten thirty and eleven on the morning of the third of May”.
00.41.13 1578 “At the tennis courts”?
Reply “Yes at the tennis courts”.
1578 “Any particular court”?
Reply “Erm it was the one, if you were standing facing the courts, it’s the one on the left I think”. 
1578 “Got your exhibit here, number 101, are they the tennis courts”?
Reply Yes, it was, it was that one, there are only two courts there”.
1578 Okay”.
Reply So it would have been this one here, where the children were”.
1578 “What’s that one there and what is that”?
Reply “Erm that’s the, I think that’s probably, well the outside bit of the, of the crèche overlooked the tennis courts and so maybe that’s that, that’s not quite sort of accurate I don’t think that, that diagram, the crèche was here and there’s an outside area here and the indoor, in, inside of it there”.


NOTE: Madeleine's tennis lesson was on Tuesday
Was the last time Rachael saw Madeleine on TUESDAY?

Why did Rachael claim the mini tennis was on Court 1 when the police quizzed her on it?
Tennis records show it was court 2

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Jane Tanner
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“Madeleine, how much of Madeleine did you see?”
Reply “Not that much really because only really because she didn’t come to breakfast, sowe saw the other children at breakfast and their lunch, but because they tended to have breakfast and lunch separately, the only time I really saw her was at, erm, after high tea when we were playing in the play area, was the main times that I probably saw her during the week”.
4078 “And how would you describe Madeleine?”
Reply “Very, she was very lively, a very lively, happy, a happy little girl really. Because,
probably a bit of, we were almost a bit worried how Exxxx and Madeleine would get
on, because Exxxx’s quite shy and sensitive and Madeleine’s very, erm, I don’t know
whether you can call a child vivacious, but, you know, sort of very, erm, outgoing
and. But, I mean, they did, they got on and they had a whale of a time. But, yeah,
very, very lively, chatty, a chatty little girl. I mean, to be honest, I know Madeleine
probably less well than I know Kate and Gerry, because often, with Kate and Gerry,
we saw them, it was like at fortieth birthday parties and that sort of thing. So,
Madeleine herself, I wouldn’t say as, I didn’t know her as a little girl, whereas, you
know, the other children, Millie and the other ones, you know, I saw very regularly”.

4078 “So your impressions of Madeleine is that she is confident, happy?”
Reply “Umm”.
4078 “Intelligent?”
Reply “Yeah, very, yeah, you know, very”.
4078 “And is there anything about her that would make her stand out from the rest of the
children in that group?”
Reply “I think just the fact she is very outgoing, you know. As I say, Exxxx, in her nature, is a
bit more, you know, quiet and, erm, a bit more probably reserved. Well, again, I
don’t know whether you’d call a child reserved, but more, you know, not quite so”.
4078 “Hangs back and sees what is going on?”

Reply “Yeah, she’s, yeah, whereas, I think Madeleine would be, she would always be in the
centre, anything that was going on she would be, I don’t mean to say the ring-leader,
but she would be at the centre of it, so”.
02.45 4078 “I don’t want to put words in your mouth and I don’t want to ask inappropriate
questions either”.
Reply “No, just ask”.
4078 “How you described Madeleine, up to what point was she sort of the leader, if you
like, was she verging on the, because some children can be downright annoying”.
Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “When they’re over confident?”
Reply “No, again, I think this is what I was almost wondering, whether, with Exxxx being sort
of the stand-back type, whether, but, no, she wasn’t like that at all, she was just”.
4078 “In a nice way?”
Reply “Just happy. In a nice way, yeah. No, she wasn’t, erm, she wasn’t a brat, no, I mean,
that’s you could describe, she wasn’t, no, bratty or sort of, I can’t remember the word
I’m trying to look for, precocious”.
4078 “Yeah”.
Reply “No, she was just very, and she was obviously, you know, they were enjoying
themselves, they were running around screaming, you know, sort of chasing them
round the play area, you know. That’s my main memory of Madeleine from the
holiday, is in the play area, you know, we were sort of chasing them around and, you
know, just being, just running around, quite happy”.
4078 “Just fun?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah”.

NOTE: JT seems to describe two very different personalities between her child and Madeleine and was concerned about how they would get along.

Ella is shy and many witneses claim the child they believed to be 'Madeleine' was
 shy


On the Wednesday me, Rachael and Kate watched Exxxx and
Madeleine having their tennis lesson”.
4078 “Yeah”.
Reply “But then on the Thursday another group of children came down for their tennis
lesson and that’s when Russell and this other person was there with the video camera.

Because just going backwards, I’m thinking Russell dropped Exxxx off and then came
to watch us finishing our tennis lesson with Exx, because Exx didn’t go to the Kids
Club. And after our tennis lesson that day another group of children came down for
their tennis lesson, so”.
07.19 4078 “Not Madeleine?”
Reply “Not Madeleine and Exxxx, no, another group. And we sort of just watched them
starting and that’s when the conversation with this other person with the video
camera, because he was taking pictures of his daughter”.
4078 “Are you sure that it was his daughter?”
Reply “I’m absolutely. It definitely was his daughter, yes, yeah”.
4078 “So it was not sort of a stranger we have got with a video camera?”
Reply “No, no, I think he was actually on our flight out, so we had actually spoken to him
during the week. So, no, he was definitely, he was definitely a guest who had his
daughter there. But, yeah, I got that wrong. And that makes more sense because I
was thinking the day before I would have gone off to play, to do the same, whereas
that day, after the tennis lesson, I didn’t do any other activity, for want of, yeah, so.
Does that make sense?”
4078 “Yeah, it does, but just to clarify though, that on the Wednesday, when you saw
Madeleine and Exxxx had her tennis lesson, do you remember if Russell was there
then?”
Reply “I don’t remember if he was there, but I don’t’ think so”.
4078 “But on the Thursday he was there”.
Reply “He was definitely there”.
4078 “Watching Madeleine and Exxxx”.
Reply “It was the other, it was other part of the, it was the same age group but it was the
other half of the group that were having their tennis lesson”.

8.19 4078 “Okay”.
Reply “No, I thought when I was saying that, that it didn’t sound quite fright, so, yeah”.
4078 “Okay”.
Reply “So, yeah, so we had, erm, the tennis lesson finished, so I’ve had that conversation
about ‘Isn’t it awful you can’t watch your daughter’, blah, blah, blah, ‘You can’t film
your own daughter’. And then we walked down to the beach with Exx. So I think,
erm, I think we walked down, no, Dave and Fi were already down there and, no, we
met. Hang on. Sorry, I’m just trying to think.
4078 “There is no problem, just in your own time. Was this your first beach visit by the
way?”
Reply “It was with the children, yeah, with Exx, yeah. And, again, that sounds odd, but
we’d just moved to Devon, so I think we’d been to the beach quite a lot, so normally
when, if we’d gone on holiday we’d have been like straight to the beach, but because
we’d, because we were by the beach”.
4078 “Not so much”.
Reply “Yeah, I don’t think we’d sort of, we hadn’t sort of thought of going before. Erm,
you know, walking down to the beach, so Russell, me and Exx walked down to the
beach. I don’t know, I don’t know what Kate did then (inaudible) but I don’t know
where Kate went at that point, but she didn’t come to the beach with us. Erm, we, I
think we met Dave and Fi coming back, because they’d had their second, I think
they’d had their second sailing lesson, erm, which Russell should have gone to but he
didn’t because of looking after Exx, because I’d paid for the tennis lesson but he
hadn’t paid for the sailing lesson we thought I’d do the tennis lesson”.
4078 “Because it was paid?”
Reply “Yeah, erm, I think we met Dave and Fi coming back and they said they’d seen
Madeleine and Exxxx on a boat, because they’d taken the kids sailing that morning, so
they said ‘Oh we’ve seen Madeleine and Exxxx on a boat down there’. So then we
went down to the beach, erm, and Russell took out a kayak and I sat and just played

on the beach with Exx at that point. And we saw, erm, they’d come off the boat and
we saw Exxxx and Madeleine and the rest of the group, they were just, erm, they’d just
come off the boat and they were getting ready to walk back up to the, erm, tut, the
Kids Club, so”.
10.30 4078 “What was the weather like at that time when you remember seeing Madeleine on the
beach then?”
Reply “Erm, I think that day was a bit nicer actually. I think, I’m trying to, I’ve got pictures
of Exxxx, of Exx, that’s about the first day I took pictures actually, and I’ve got
pictures of Exx and I’m trying to remember what she was wearing. It was a tee-shirt,
so I don’t think it was, it wasn’t as, I think it was actually getting a bit nicer, it wasn’t
as cold. No, yeah, because the Thursday was actually probably one of the first nice
days, which is why I think we had gone later in the day, we took all the kids down to
the beach because it was actually nicer weather. So, yeah, the Thursday was
probably the first day I think the sun had more come out in the day”.
4078 “When you were there with Exx and you had seen Madeleine and Exxxx sort of getting
ready to go back to the Kids Club, were there many other people around?”
Reply “Erm, not many, erm, phew, you know, I mean, I can remember sitting in a big space,
you know, you weren’t like jammed in, there was a big space before any of the
others. And, again, I’ve racked my brains to think if I could if there was anybody
there that was, and I can’t think of any, noticing anybody, noticing anybody odd at
that point. Erm, there was mainly just, as I say, there was the kids there and there
was the people that run the activities on the beach. But, erm, you know, there were
other people but nothing, you know, nobody, nobody that stood out completely”.
4078 “Okay. Go on then”.
Reply “Yeah, so erm, so, yeah, Russ took the, took the kayak out for a bit and then came
back and then we just sat, I think we just stayed then on the beach and waited to,
because Exxxx, and then waited ‘til sort of half twelve to go and pick Exxxx up for lunch,
erm. So we walked back via the Kids Club and then back up for lunch. And I think
that day was the day we had lunch in our apartment with just Matt and Rachael and

not Dave and Fi. I think, I think because they’d done the sailing early, I think they
might have picked up their kids a bit earlier and given them lunch, you know,
beforehand. I can’t remember why we didn’t, but it was just the four of us and the
kids there that day. Erm, so, yeah, we just went back and had lunch in the apartment.
And then G***e and Exx, took them to have a, have a nap. 


---------------------------------------

Erm, so Russ took back, took Exxxx
back to the Kids Club and Matt listened for Exx while Russ took Exxxx. Matt, Matt
sort of was listening for Exx and G***e while Russ took Exxxx back to the, back to the
Kids Club”.
13.41 4078 “Right”.
Reply “Erm, and I think we played ‘til about, phew, half two, because I think, I’m not sure
if this is going to be another question that you are going to ask, but I think that was
the last time that I saw Madeleine, because Kate and Gerry brought the kids, all the
kids down to the play area to, they would have their lunch before they took them
back to the Kids Club, and I think that was about two, quarter past two’ish, and I can
remember Madeleine shouting things to us on the tennis court, you know, and I can
remember Gerry sort of going ‘Oh good shot’ or whatever. And I think that would
have been the last time that I personally, you know, I personally saw Madeleine.
Erm, and I think they then left, I say times, I’m not sure, but I know, I think it was
probably, the Kids Club had already gone back in, because I could hear, the Kids
Club was right by the court, so, and I can remember thinking ‘Oh they’ve not gone
straight back in’. Then they took the twins up to the Kids Club and I presume
Madeleine back to the, to the other one, because then Kate and Gerry, I think we saw
them, I can’t remember for exactly, but I think we saw them when we come back,
because they’d booked a, erm, a private tennis lesson, just the two of them, that

afternoon, and I think, I don’t, I can’t remember whether we saw them coming back
before me and Rachael finished or whether we saw them doing that when we then
went down to the beach, but I remember seeing Kate and Gerry coming back to have
their, have their private tennis lesson. 

So anyway me and Rachael probably knocked
up for about any hour maybe or probably a bit less than an hour,

NOTE: Last time JT saw Madeleine was when she was playig tennis with Rachael and yet Rachael claims the last time she saw Madeleine was when she was playing mini tennis on Thursday BUT Madeleine played on Tuesday. 

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We have a list of witnesses who saw Madeleine during week.

Some can be eliminated as, IMO, they seem to have been mistaken (red)

Many of the others (in my opinion,) are questionable and may have been mistaken or were not specific about seeing Madeleine.

Which of the witnesses can be considered as a confirmed 'sighting' of Madeleine during the holiday and were not confused?

Fátima María Serafim da Silva Espada is, in my opinion, a credible witness that saw Madeleine on Sunday

The picture distributed was of a younger Madeleine and may have confused some of the witnesses into thinking it was a younger child or another tapas child as can be compared in pictures on this page...

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and here...

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[size=23]1) - Catriona Baker
2) - Cecilia Dias Firmino - 
3) - Charlotte Pennington 
4) - Elisa Dias Romao - 
5) - Emma Wilding - 
6) - Georgina Jackson - 
7) - Jeronimo Salcedes - Tapas Barman 
8) - Maria M A Jose - Tapas Cook 
9) - Paula Cristina da Costa Vieira - 
10) -Fátima María Serafim da Silva Espada(5A Cleaner's daughter) - 
11) - Luisa Ana de Noronha de Azevedo Coutinho ( Receptionist)
12) - Paula Cristina da Costa Vieira (Cleaning Staff)


Non Specific comments:-
Bridget O'Donnell 
Jeremy (Jes/Jez) Wilkins
Stephen Carpenter
Daniel Stuk

Not in Files
Miguel Matias, manager of the beach-side Paraíso restaurant - Was mistaken and saw one of the other tapas children damcing with her dady pven by th the CCTV footage.
Alice Stanley & Chris Unsworth - Took children sailing May 3rd - Apparently no statements from them

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1) - Catriona Baker
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- last saw MBM before 6 pm on 3rd May, when collected by Kate - Credibility of witness not confirmed (questionable creche records and invitation and trip to Rothley in November after which her Rogatory statement has many 'issues' imo
- may have changed her original statement 3 times during Rog interview)


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2) - Cecilia Dias Firmino - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

She says that her job is to receive guests at the entrance to the Millenium restaurant and check whether they have to pay for breakfast or whether this is included in their package. She works from 07.00 to 12.00 from Tuesdays to Saturdays. She says that she only attends to guests at breakfast time except on Wednesdays when there is Barbecue Night at the restaurant and when she welcomes guests for dinner, working from 18.00 to 22.00.

When asked, she says that due to her work she knows most of the guests given that most of them visit the Millenium as it is the only restaurant that serves breakfast.

When asked, she says that she knows the parents, the siblings and Madeleine. She received them for breakfast on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, she does not know whether they went for breakfast on Sunday or Monday, as these were her days off.

She says that breakfast was served between 08.00 and 10.00 and that the McCanns would arrive between 08.00 and 09.00.

She says that the McCanns appeared to be a normal family and that the relation between the members of the family was very good. Madeleine appeared to be very attached to her father and was always clinging on to him. Given her public relations function she was always very nice to the guests and would get involved with the children, saying that Madeleine was very shy and did not respond to her.She says that the only contact she had with guests was at the entrance to the Millenium restaurant, she did not have a view of the tables or the Buffet area


- saw MBM at breakfast when she worked on Tue, Wed & thurs, but does not specify exactly when seen (Note: conflicting evidence on where breakfast was taken by the family, and when) - Possibly mistaken identity as McCanns did not go to breakfast during the week when she was working


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3) - Charlotte Pennington [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

• Has been in Portugal since April 28th, the day upon which she began working for the Ocean Club tourist Complex in Luz, Lagos, and where she is employed as a child educator. Her work contract was completed in the U.K. with MarkWarner;
• The witness clarifies that between the 19th of April and the 04th of May 2007 she worked with a group of children staying in the aforementioned complex between the ages of 4 months and one year of age (the Baby Club);
• The witness further clarifies that the BabyClub group was divided in three sub-groups, with each group composed of two babies, so that each group had a different infant educator allocated to it;
• With relation to the facts of the investigation, the witness states that in the course of her work, she came across Madeleine McCann many times, explaining that, even though she [Madeleine] did not belong to her [Pennington’s] group, this was normal, as the physical space where the children groups are located is contiguous; 
• The witness clarifies that Madeleine was registered with the ‘MiniClub’, a group with children between 3 and 4 years of age. The principal space where the children from MiniClub and BabyClub are situated is in the same building as the Ocean Club complex reception and this is why the witness had personal contact with the identified child. However, she clarifies that it was normal during “siesta”-- understood to be between the hours of 09H00 and 10H30 and 14H30 and 15H00, at the exact time that children are brought into the crèche by their parents—when the children under her guard are asleep, that she would participate with the children and the activities in the MiniClub;
• Witness states that on two different days, Sunday, 29th of April 2007, and on Thursday, 03rd of May 2007, she had direct contact with Madeleine McCann, telling her stories and speaking with her. 
• Witness states that as she was an intelligent child, timid at first contact, and who later felt more comfortable, was a child who conversed normally for her age, and was of a calm demeanour. She adds that it was usual for Madeleine to be called “Maddy”, as this is how she [Madeleine] presented herself to the witness;




- told MBM stories and talked to her on 3rd May - Credibility of witness not confirmed (Claims to have seen the twins in their cot and yet early statement says she did not enter apartment.)

She arrived April 28th (but claims to have worked from April 19th?) and on the first day of working with the babies, she leaves them asleep and reads to Maddie?


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4) - Elisa Dias Romao - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The witness works at the Luz Ocean Club, on contract. Her functions include attending to the reception area of the Garden Club (where the Millenium restaurant is found). 

This is the second period in which she has worked for the LOC, always in the same role.

Her days off are Sundays and Mondays.

Regarding the investigation, the witness states that she became aware of the same, on Friday. That morning, when she showed up for work, she heard talk that a British child had disappeared the night prior and that since then no one knows of her whereabouts.

With relation to the other elements gathered afterwards, the witness confirms that she became aware of them via the media and other talk between the guests and colleagues. 

She firmly believes that no one knows precisely how everything happened. 

Regarding the group linked to the couple and the missing child and her two siblings, she only became aware afterwards that Madeleine’s siblings were twins. The witness remembers seeing them in the Garden Club, near the pool and the Tapas restaurant. 
They appeared a normal family, as did the entire group. She did not notice any strange or suspicious details. 

When questioned, the witness clarifies that she worked at the Garden Club reception (NOTE: Millenium?) on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays, at a time covering the lunch hour. She remembers seeing the couple with their children as they had to pass the reception to leave the area. She next saw them head in the direction of the apartment where the witness believes they had lunch. 

She believes that they left always between 12H30 and 13H00.

Around 14H00 the couple would return around 14H00, in fact, most of the couples would return their children to the crèche around this time. She does not know if the three McCann children were together given their different ages.

When questioned, the witness states that the parents would spend the majority of the time inside the Garden Club, in activities such as playing tennis, as they were a group of four couples (the reservation was always made for 9 adults). They would only all meet together for dinner. 

The couple would only leave the Garden Club after the children’s tea, which was served by the nannies in that area around 17H00/18H00. 

It was only after this period that they would leave with the children in the direction of their respective apartments. 

Questioned, states that she was left with the notion that the four couples always took their children when they went out or that they (the children) never left the area without their parents.

Her normal working day was from 09.00 – 17.00 and therefore she was never present when the group was dining.

Her working day was normal that day and she did not see anything of interest to the investigation.

On this same day at around 17H30, she remembers that she left the reception to collect her earnings and she does not remember having seen Madeleine or her parents enter or in the interior of the TAPAS.




- saw MBM every lunchtime, worked Tue, Wed & Thurs - Confusing statement but claims this -On this same day at around 17H30, she remembers that she left the reception to collect her earnings and she does not remember having seen Madeleine or her parents enter or in the interior of the TAPAS.

Did she work at Millenium or Tapas?


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5) - Emma Wilding - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 

When questioned she states that she knows Madelede’s (sic) parents because although Madeleine is not in her group, she frequently speaks to her parents, and finds their concerns and interests normal and typical of parents.

When questioned she states that there are parents that leave their respective children during the whole day and every day at the clubs, and that this is normal within British culture. With respect to Madeleine, she states that she spent most of her time at the Mini Club. The children began arriving at 0900 until 1230 when their respective parents collected them for lunch, and returned at 1430 until 1645 when the Infants’ teachers took the children to eat something appropriate for their age at the Tapas restaurant. Most of the parents met their respective children here, and the children then remained in their parents’ care.

When questioned she states that on May 3, 2007 it was the father that took Madeleine, as was customary, between 0900 and 0930; she remembers that she just said “hello” to him, because as Madelede (sic) did not belong to her group she did not talk to him very much.

She only noticed Madeleine and not her father,(?) and nothing seemed abnormal or unusual.

She is not sure whether during the morning Madeleine’s group had outdoor activities, mainly at the pool;( MINI SAIL?) she does remember that around 1230 Madelew’s (sic) father went to fetch her for lunch.

When questioned, she states that on Wednesday May 2, her group and Madeleine’s group went to the beach, but she is not sure if Madeleine was in the group or not, and does not remember having seen anybody specifically taking direct and close-up photographs of the children.

She remembers that during the afternoon of May 3 Madeleine was at the Mini Club, but she does not remember at what time she arrived, and if on that day Madeleine accompanied the other children at 1645 as was customary.

She is also not sure whether her parents joined her during the snack, as was customary.

During this period of time she did not notice anybody or anything out of the ordinary, as her attention was wholly focused on the children.

That night, at around 2200 she learned that Madeleine had disappeared, and together with her colleagues she helped look for her.

As regards Madeleine, she did not spent much time with her because she was not in her group; she did not know her well, but Madeleine appeared to be somewhat shy, this was noticeable the first days.Since she met her, she noticed nothing abnormal in any aspect that would point to Madeleine being a child that was out of the ordinary.


She only noticed Madeleine and not her father, and nothing seemed abnormal or unusual. ?

she does remember that around 1230 Madelew’s (sic) father went to fetch her for lunch. (Kate went with Fiona to pick her up)

When questioned, she states that on Wednesday May 2, her group and Madeleine’s group went to the beach, but she is not sure if Madeleine was in the group or not, (Olympics Grass time coloured beige on Activity sheet but no 'beach trip shown) 

Was Emma mistaken about the trip to the beach on Wednesday Who accompanied Catriona on the mini sail?

Did they go on Thursday as the creche activity sheet suggested because of rain on Wednesday?

Why did she not remember seeing Madeleine?

Too many children or was Madeleine missing from the group?

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6) - Georgina Jackson - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

She relates it was one of the preferred activities of the McCann couple in that they had several lessons throughout the days and up to the date of the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, it being thatthe child also had a class, on Tuesday, 1 May (10-11h00), that class [in which] she was among a group of children was conducted by the deponent.


- gave MBM a tennis lesson with other children on Tue 1st May , 10-11am. - After being shown the younger picture, can it be taken for granted that she would remember Madeleine actually being in the group or did she 'presume' or did she respond 'among a group of children' because the records showed this was Madeleine's group?
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7) - Jeronimo Salcedes - Tapas Barman 
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- He saw the missing Madelaine, for the last time, yesterday at 16.45h next to the restaurant; ?

In spite of having already observed many photos of Madeleine he claims that he could not state with any certainty that he had seen her at any moment, the same goes for whom he now knows to be her twin siblings. The specifics of his work do not leave him with much time to focus his attention on the children that were around, although as he has stated previously he worked with children of Madeleine’s approximate age for almost four years.

Since Madeleine’s disappearance, I have seen her picture many times in the media, but I cannot honestly affirm that I remember seeing her in person before the disappearance from the Ocean Club. There were many children and I never paid much attention to any of them.


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8) - Maria M A Jose - Tapas Cook [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


after seeing pictures of the missing child on television, that she realised who the girl was, referring to her as Madeleine (the name used by the journalists) remembering only at that moment that she had seen her during the meals provided to the children at the crèche, and which take place at the restaurant where she works and during arrivals at the crèche where Madeleine spent the day, located immediately next to the restaurant.the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week


Another example of mistakenly thinking that one of the other tapas children was Madeleine?

She claims the child went to the creche next to the tapas, Madeleine's creche was near Millenium

- saw MBM 4.30pm on 3rd May, having tea at the restaurant. - Was probably mistaken and may have seen Lilly at the creche next to the Tapas Madeleine went to the creche by reception 10 minutes away.
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10) -Fátima María Serafim da Silva Espada (Cleaner) - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

She states that this took place on Sunday 29th April, just before she finished her morning work shift (13.30) as she had the afternoon off that day. At about 13.15 she went to help her mother, who was cleaning apartment I of the same block (5) situated on the first floor. She clearly remembers seeing the girl accompanied by her siblings and mother leave their apartment (5 A) and walk to the stairs leading to the floor above. She was very close to them at a distance of about 1 metre, observing their movements for a few moments because she was charmed by them. Madeleine led the way with a plate (perhaps plastic) in her hand bearing a piece of bread. As regards the clothes she was wearing she only remembers a skirt but cannot recall its description. She noted, because she thought them nice, the type of shoes she was wearing, tennis shoes, light in colour she thinks, which had little lights along the soles, which lit up each time she stepped on the ground. Her siblings followed behind her, wearing the same king of shoes and each holding a piece of bread in their hands, their mother followed behind them without holding their hands. She seems to remember that the mother was also carrying a plate. Moments afterwards, perhaps the time it took to close the apartment door, the father came out and also headed to the apartment upstairs. When asked, she does not remember whether the father pulled the door closed or locked it with a key.

After she chatted to her mother about there being many children in the apartments, she had the idea that the family in 5H were friends of Madeleine’s family who were staying in 5 A.

She never cleaned any of these apartments referred to as they were allocated to her mother. Her mother never mentioned anything strange to her, either before or after the girl’s disappearance that could be related to the disappearance. The only comment she remembered concerned the clutter in the apartments, mainly clothing which was left all around the place. She thinks that her mother cleaned the apartments in that block on Monday and Wednesday (02-05).


In my opinion this is a really credible sighting of Madeleine. On Sunday afternoon as they were leaving the apartment to join the Paynes for lunch with bread in her hands and shoes that lit up

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11) - Luisa Ana de Noronha de Azevedo Coutinho ( Receptionist)http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post186.html#p186

She remembers that on Sunday 29th April one of the elements of the group arrived with the child Madeleine McCann, she does not know his name and can only say that he was male and tall and thinand that he approached her to request a booking for the whole group, for the whole week and always at 20.30.

When questioned, she confirms that the man was not the father of the girl but one of the members of the group whom was often seen in his company.

The man justified his request by saying that the group had many small children whom they would leave alone when they went to dine. She said that at intervals some two parents would go to the apartments to see if everything was OK.

The deponent made some comments about the request, saying that the Tapas received many requests and that MW only had a quota of 20 per day, but upon the insistence of the guest she managed to make the bookings requested.

She confirms that it was possible to see the apartment from the restaurant, including the window of the sitting room.


ROB made arrangements on Sunday. Could this have been his daughter Ella, who is similar in appearance to Madeleine and was not (apparently) at the creche on Sunday morning when the booking should have been made.?

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12) - Paula Cristina da Costa Vieira (Cleaning Staff- Millenium)
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The witness works at the Luz Ocean Club, on contract. Her functions include attending to the reception area of the Garden Club (where the Millenium restaurant is found). 

This is the second period in which she has worked for the LOC, always in the same role.

Her days off are Sundays and Mondays.

Regarding the investigation, the witness states that she became aware of the same, on Friday. That morning, when she showed up for work, she heard talk that a British child had disappeared the night prior and that since then no one knows of her whereabouts.

With relation to the other elements gathered afterwards, the witness confirms that she became aware of them via the media and other talk between the guests and colleagues. 

She firmly believes that no one knows precisely how everything happened. 

Regarding the group linked to the couple and the missing child and her two siblings, she only became aware afterwards that Madeleine’s siblings were twins. The witness remembers seeing them in the Garden Club, near the pool and the Tapas restaurant. 

They appeared a normal family, as did the entire group. She did not notice any strange or suspicious details. 

When questioned, the witness clarifies that she worked at the Garden Club reception on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays, at a time covering the lunch hour. She remembers seeing the couple with their children as they had to pass the reception to leave the area. She next saw them head in the direction of the apartment where the witness believes they had lunch. 

She believes that they left always between 12H30 and 13H00.

Around 14H00 the couple would return around 14H00, in fact, most of the couples would return their children to the crèche around this time. She does not know if the three McCann children were together given their different ages.

When questioned, the witness states that the parents would spend the majority of the time inside the Garden Club, in activities such as playing tennis, as they were a group of four couples (the reservation was always made for 9 adults). They would only all meet together for dinner. 

The couple would only leave the Garden Club after the children’s tea, which was served by the nannies in that area around 17H00/18H00. 

It was only after this period that they would leave with the children in the direction of their respective apartments. Questioned, states that she was left with the notion that the four couples always took their children when they went out or that they (the children) never left the area without their parents.

Her normal working day was from 09.00 – 17.00 and therefore she was never present when the group was dining.Her working day was normal that day and she did not see anything of interest to the investigation.

On this same day at around 17H30, she remembers that she left the reception to collect her earnings and she does not remember having seen Madeleine or her parents enter or in the interior of the TAPAS.
She returned to the reception around 19H00 and finished work shortly afterwards. She became aware of the disappearance the next day (Friday) via a colleague.


Did she work at Tapas or Millenium?
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Other Witnesses - they gave no specifics

Bridget O'Donnell - alluded to Madeleine being in the tennis 'all pink and pretty' but was no Madeleine's mini tennis group
Jeremy (Jes/Jez) Wilkins
Stephen Carpenter
Daniel Stuk


Not in Files
Miguel Matias, manager of the beach-side Paraíso restaurant - Was mistaken and saw one of the other tapas children damcing with her dady pven by th the CCTV footage.
Alice Stanley & Chris Unsworth - Took children sailing May 3rd - Apparently only unofficial statements from them[/size]

PeterMac wrote:Mrs Fenn may have heard one or both of the twins, crying and in distress at not being with her elder sister . . .  (or parent, obviously)  !

That would leave her evidence intact, with no reason to suspect her of mistake or fabrication.
Daddy Daddy = Maddie Maddie

That is a reasonable supposition, but for several things.

1. For starters, Mrs Fenn, in her statement, takes the trouble to say this:

"...she heard a child cry, and that due to the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger".


This seems, on the face of it, a rather clumsy attempt to suggest that it was definitely Madeleine that she heard. How can she possibly distinguish between the crying of a 2-year-old-child and a 3-year-old child? It makes no sense.

Or to put it this way, it makes about as much sense as Martin Smith claiming, over 4 months later, that he recognised Gerry McCann as the man he said he'd seen 4 months earlier 'because of the way he was carrying his son on his left shoulder'.    

2. Then there is grave doubt about her 'nearly grabbed the burglar by the ankles' story.

3. There are more doubts about the truthfulness of what she says about Tranmer-gate-man.

4. And how credible is it that she and Edna Glyn conversed, a sobbing child screaming out as they were talking, and had already been screaming for over half-an-hour, neither of the women doing anything about it, and leaving the child sobbing for a further 45 minutes without lifting a finger to phone the police. Nothing whatsoever about this 'crying incident' rings true. 

Mrs Fenn was surely bounced into that interview with the PJ on 20 August 2007. Two days earlier, the British papers had trailed well in advance what she was going to say.

No wonder that she blurted out two days after her interview: 'Ignore what I'm supposed to have said - it's all rubbish'.

IMO never was a truer word spoken

PeterMac wrote:Mrs Fenn may have heard one or both of the twins, crying and in distress at not being with her elder sister . . .  (or parent, obviously)  !

That would leave her evidence intact, with no reason to suspect her of mistake or fabrication.
Daddy daddy = Maddie Maddie

Mrs Fenn made a point of telling us that the child that she heard was not a baby of two or under but an older child.  Not exactly mentioning Maddie but inferring that it was.

REPLY TO TONY BENNETT RE: CHALLENGE - WHERE IS THE PROOF THAT MADELEINE WAS SEEN AFTER SUNDAY LUNCHTIME)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Response to Lizzy's OP by Tony Bennett

Very interesting indeed.

So if HideHo/Lizzy is right in doubting whether there is any credible evidence that Madeleine was seen after Sunday...
...it would follow, as night follows day, that there would also be no credible evidence that she was heard after Sunday.

And that would put an even larger question mark over Mrs Pamela Fenn's claim over the 'crying incident'.

In any case, the interview given by Mrs Fenn to journalists where she says: "Ignore what I'm supposed to have said, it's all rubbish" sounds like the authentic voice of Mrs Fenn. Was she put up to making that curious statement about the 75 minutes' continuous sobbing, Tranner-gate-man, and the non-existent burglary which happened 1/2/3/several weeks earlier where she tried to grab the burglar's ankles as he leapt from a first-floor window?

HideHo's very detailed explanation and hypothesis also undermines the theory of Goncalo Amaral, supported by e.g. Pat Brown, 'Textusa' and 'Unterdenteppichgekehrt', that Madeleine must have died after 6pm on Thursday 3rd May. HideHo is clearly suggesting - and with good reason - that Madeleine 'disappeared' long before then

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Thanks for posting that Jill, and thanks for the questions Tony. I will respond on here and my reply can be taken to CMOMM or I will try to respond there as well
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1) ...it would follow, as night follows day, that there would also be no credible evidence that she was heard after Sunday.

A 1) Not necessarily. My claim is that I cannot find PROOF of anyone seeing (or indeed, hearing) Maddie after Sunday lunchtime.. Many statements claim to have seen her but there is not ONE that I find as proof. Many were non specific, or were likely describing another child, or the witnesses were not considered fully credible
Only the cleaner's daughter that saw her outside their apartment with the rest of the family heading up to the Paynes apartment for lunch, wearing 'lighted' shoes, along with her statement follows with her leaving at the time of her work hours ending, leads me to believe it is a very credible statement...
I'm not claiming she WASN'T seen, but I cannot find one statement to prove that she was...
There seems to be nothing, but that is not evidence she wasn't seen.
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2)
And that would put an even larger question mark over Mrs Pamela Fenn's claim over the 'crying incident'
In any case, the interview given by Mrs Fenn to journalists where she says: "Ignore what I'm supposed to have said, it's all rubbish" sounds like the authentic voice of Mrs Fenn. Was she put up to making that curious statement about the 75 minutes' continuous sobbing, Tranner-gate-man, and the non-existent burglary which happened 1/2/3/several weeks earlier where she tried to grab the burglar's ankles as he leapt from a first-floor window?
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A2 ) I have no reason to believe that Mrs Fenn did not hear the crying, but do we really know WHO was crying?
The Oldfield's apartment was below Mrs Fenn's apartment and we know that Rachael had claimed to have given Jane Tanners oldest daughter baths in the evening, so could it have been E**a?
The Paynes apartment was adjoined to Mrs Fenn, could it have come from there?
Maybe it WAS Maddie and this is an issue that I will address in the next question. If something had happened to Maddie before Tuesday, was she (I'm sorry to say this) suffering at that point for whatever reason?
We really don't know WHO was crying, but the likelihood of there being more than one child in that room is remote... (unless other children were sedated heavily).
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Last question and probably the most important...
3) HideHo's very detailed explanation and hypothesis also undermines the theory of Goncalo Amaral, supported by e.g. Pat Brown, 'Textusa' and 'Unterdenteppichgekehrt', that Madeleine must have died after 6pm on Thursday 3rd May.
HideHo is clearly suggesting - and with good reason - that Madeleine 'disappeared' long before then
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A 3) Anyone that knows me knows I don't listen to what I am 'told'. Almost everything I claim is something I have researched for myself.

Unlike many others I did not look at the 'evidence in the files' and try to figure how it could all fit together. I started from scratch, and the first thing I wanted to know was to compile the statements to see how they all compared.

I spent time reading and compiling timetables and timelines based sometimes on each 15 min period of each day... Over 200 timetables of different time periods in the holiday or for different topics.

That's when the DISCREPANCIES became obvious.

It seemed logical to me that any 'major' discrepancy (ie one that is not attributed to memory) would, maybe, happen because there was something to hide... This, to me, meant that the day/time the discrepancies started to happen could be the time they were trying to cover up the truth...

I discovered MANY discrepancies and curiosities, that put together in the context of the week really showed me that there had to have been SOMETHING that happened for those contradictions/curiosities to have been 'needed'.

Tuesday was the day that they started, but one of the more interesting ones was on Wednesday morning...

The cleaner came on Wednesday to clean and said there was a cot in the parents bedroom (she doesn't mention it was an extra bed). Both Kate and Gerry DENIED the cot being in their room.

WHY? Its not a big deal, one wouldn't think but they were very clear to deny it...and THAT makes it interesting...
When you add that information to it being the morning FOLLOWING the crying, then add the 7am calls from Kate to her friend Amanda, followed by the beginning of the text messages to Gerry's phone that they BOTH DENIED, it starts to look as though there was some kind of damage control by deying the truth of these issues.

At that point it appeared that they were trying to cover something up from Tuesday morning onwards... (heavily covering up on Thursday morning) so I needed to see if my thoughts were correct or if I could prove myself wrong....

Having NO idea what I would find, I decided to compile and scrutinise all the statements from everyone that had claimed to have seen Madeleine during the week... Fatima, the cleaners daughter was, imo, credible, but I needed to find if at least ONE of the statements proved my 'something happening before Tuesday' wrong. (NOTE: I never claim she 'died' before Tuesday)

Initially like most others, I used Thursday as the day, but because the volume of the discrepancies on Thursday were so great I was believing it was Wednesday.

Georgina the tennis coach claimed to have seen her at mini tennis on Tuesday morning so I was questioning between Tuesday morning and Wednesday for some time...

Once I realised that Rachael's statement about the tennis was directed at THURSDAY and not Tuesday, with many resulting discrepancies, I decided to return to Georgina's statement and realised that she was not specific about seeing Madeleine, only that she was 'among a group of children'

She relates it was one of the preferred activities of the McCann couple in that they had several lessons throughout the days and up to the date of the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, it being that the child also had a class, on Tuesday, 1 May (10-11h00), that class [in which] she was among a group of children was conducted by the deponent.

Catriona was with them so Georgina may not have known who each child was by name and made that statement based on her records of the Lobsters mini tennis. It is certainly not proof that Madeleine was there.
.
At that point 'something happening' could be moved earlier and to this day 5 years since I did that research on statements, I have found NOTHING between Sunday Lunchtime and Tuesday morning...

So, in answer to the question, why I have different beliefs to others, it is because we all base our opinions on our own knowledge (hence it is important to share knowledge) ...Pat claims after 6pm and Textusa has an enormous amount of research, I know that 'Unterdenteppichgekehrt' based her theory entirely on the files that we know about.

Having a different theory to Goncalo Amaral is certainly difficult to explain, other than his theory was likely based on the investigation and early statements and not the very eye opening rogatory statements.

Also, witness statements claim to have seen Madeleine at 5.30 -6pm and he could not discredit those sightings (even if they were incorrect).

I really cannot explain any more than that...

I see major discrepancies that start on Tuesday morning leading me to believe they were trying to hide something at that point, and in trying to double check myself I could not find any statement that shows proof she was seen during the week...

As I always say, its up to each one of us to decide for oneself, but it must be based on knowledge to have credibility...My theory is obviously unique and based on knowledge and research that is only familiar to myself...(although open to view and scrutinise), so it is no wonder I may be relatively alone in my theory and opinions, but it IS based on what is in the files...

One more thing... An earlier demise, answers a LOT of questions that exist in the 6pm Thursday scenario...but that's another thread


This is the forum that all my research is stored..

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Whoa Jill... That was a lot of posting!  I should have condensed it a little for you, especially as there were two threads 

However, it maybe gives an insight to how I arrived at my conclusions and they were not arrived at by guessing, or making a theory fit.

Everything I came up with is based on the statements from the files.

I'll try to answer any questions arising from it as this is one area that I can't expect others to understand.  It took me 4 years to compile all the info in the Remembering Madeleine forum and its the information that I used in my videos.

So....let me know if anyone has any queries 

HiDeHo wrote:Whoa Jill... That was a lot of posting!  I should have condensed it a little for you, especially as there were two threads 

I know Lizzy! I typed my fingers to the bone!

Lol Jill :)

I see you have highlighted this portion of my answer...

One more thing... An earlier demise, answers a LOT of questions that exist in the 6pm Thursday scenario...but that's another thread [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I think it is important to address this as it helps to 'confirm' what the big picture actually was that week.  Remember, their statements were designed to conceal and we can't believe them blindly.

If one DOES start to look at something happening earlier then these curiosities start to become clear... (just a few off the top of my head)

Firstly, I don't believe for one second they neglected their children... MANY reasons for that (another thread) and if you look at something earlier happening it starts to explain that the week wasn't as one would expect....

The McCanns became very detached from the rest of the group... Was Kate grieving during this time?

They all made a big deal about them not going to breakfast and lunch (by Monday) but what if this was because they didnt want Diane or anyone to see that Madeleine wasn't with them..

Wednesday evening Jez Wilkins claims that Gerry and Russell arrived together... and was told that Kate was putting the children to bed... If so, why wasnt Jane with them.. or was it that Kate was grieving and  Jane stayed with her?

The quiz mistress did not see Kate at the table on Tuesday...so is our 'belief' that they were ALL at the table every night (except the ones who claimed to be sick) just something they wanted us to believe...?

The police asked everyone whether the Irwin sisters were sat at the table with them....WHY?  They all denied, but was this possibly who made up the 'female' numbers at the table? (just a thought)

DNA was not found in the apartment...

Why did all the Ocean Club staff claim Maddie was shy?  (images available) Apparently Jane's daughter was very shy, looked similar to Maddie... and she was booked in at times when Maddie was booked out (with the alternate times for each of them blank)

Was the abnormal late night on Wednesday (an hour after closing with the waiters wanting to go home) the time when they made the last arrangements for Thursdays 'abduction'?

What a coincidence that the McCanns were not at the Paraiso on Thursday... Was this so the T7 could 'detach' themselves from what was about to happen and not alert Dianne Webster that Maddie was not there?

Speculation, maybe, but worth a thought...

There are LOTS more questions with possible answers but...another thread :)

Tony Bennett wrote:

PeterMac wrote:Mrs Fenn may have heard one or both of the twins, crying and in distress at not being with her elder sister . . .  (or parent, obviously)  !

That would leave her evidence intact, with no reason to suspect her of mistake or fabrication.
Daddy Daddy = Maddie Maddie

That is a reasonable supposition, but for several things.

1. For starters, Mrs Fenn, in her statement, takes the trouble to say this:

"...she heard a child cry, and that due to the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger".


This seems, on the face of it, a rather clumsy attempt to suggest that it was definitely Madeleine that she heard. How can she possibly distinguish between the crying of a 2-year-old-child and a 3-year-old child? It makes no sense.

Or to put it this way, it makes about as much sense as Martin Smith claiming, over 4 months later, that he recognised Gerry McCann as the man he said he'd seen 4 months earlier 'because of the way he was carrying his son on his left shoulder'.    

I've long believed it was one of the twins that was shouting "Maddie, Maddie" not an older child shouting "Daddy, Daddy".

Similarly to your reasoning above I go back to the McCs assertions that no one referred to Madeleine as 'Maddie'. This was a careful setup to reinforce what Mrs Fenn heard as "Daddy, Daddy", since by deduction it couldn't have been "Maddie, Maddie" that was heard as this was never used as her name - in McCannWorld.

Yet another retrofit.

Rogue-a-Tory wrote:

Tony Bennett wrote:

PeterMac wrote:Mrs Fenn may have heard one or both of the twins, crying and in distress at not being with her elder sister . . .  (or parent, obviously)  !

That would leave her evidence intact, with no reason to suspect her of mistake or fabrication.
Daddy Daddy = Maddie Maddie

That is a reasonable supposition, but for several things.

1. For starters, Mrs Fenn, in her statement, takes the trouble to say this:

"...she heard a child cry, and that due to the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger".


This seems, on the face of it, a rather clumsy attempt to suggest that it was definitely Madeleine that she heard. How can she possibly distinguish between the crying of a 2-year-old-child and a 3-year-old child? It makes no sense.

Or to put it this way, it makes about as much sense as Martin Smith claiming, over 4 months later, that he recognised Gerry McCann as the man he said he'd seen 4 months earlier 'because of the way he was carrying his son on his left shoulder'.    

I've long believed it was one of the twins that was shouting "Maddie, Maddie" not an older child shouting "Daddy, Daddy".

Similarly to your reasoning above I go back to the McCs assertions that no one referred to Madeleine as 'Maddie'. This was a careful setup to reinforce what Mrs Fenn heard as "Daddy, Daddy", since by deduction it couldn't have been "Maddie, Maddie" that was heard as this was never used as her name - in McCannWorld.

Yet another retrofit.

As I mentioned before... the Oldfield's apartment was directly underneath Mrs Fenn and we know that Racheal sometimes bathed Jane Tanner's older child, so is it possible it was her?

If it did come from 5A, why was there a cot in the parent's bedroom?

Why did not other child (twins?) cry as well?

HiDeHo wrote:

Rogue-a-Tory wrote:

Tony Bennett wrote:

PeterMac wrote:Mrs Fenn may have heard one or both of the twins, crying and in distress at not being with her elder sister . . .  (or parent, obviously)  !

That would leave her evidence intact, with no reason to suspect her of mistake or fabrication.
Daddy Daddy = Maddie Maddie

That is a reasonable supposition, but for several things.

1. For starters, Mrs Fenn, in her statement, takes the trouble to say this:

"...she heard a child cry, and that due to the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger".


This seems, on the face of it, a rather clumsy attempt to suggest that it was definitely Madeleine that she heard. How can she possibly distinguish between the crying of a 2-year-old-child and a 3-year-old child? It makes no sense.

Or to put it this way, it makes about as much sense as Martin Smith claiming, over 4 months later, that he recognised Gerry McCann as the man he said he'd seen 4 months earlier 'because of the way he was carrying his son on his left shoulder'.    

I've long believed it was one of the twins that was shouting "Maddie, Maddie" not an older child shouting "Daddy, Daddy".

Similarly to your reasoning above I go back to the McCs assertions that no one referred to Madeleine as 'Maddie'. This was a careful setup to reinforce what Mrs Fenn heard as "Daddy, Daddy", since by deduction it couldn't have been "Maddie, Maddie" that was heard as this was never used as her name - in McCannWorld.

Yet another retrofit.

As I mentioned before... the Oldfield's apartment was directly underneath Mrs Fenn and we know that Racheal sometimes bathed Jane Tanner's older child, so is it possible it was her?

If it did come from 5A, why was there a cot in the parent's bedroom?

Why did not other child (twins?) cry as well?

this little gem rears it's head again!!!  Fascinating!!

Regarding the Vicky Boyd magazine article, GM finished tennis at 11.10am on thursday morning a time when Maddie was supposedly signed in at the creche. So how could she be playing football with Louie Boyd for an hour ?


The big pointer to me though is that there is no mention of the TWINS in this article BUT also of note (if this was supposed to have happened on the Thursday lunch the story clashes with the "LAST PHOTO" as she is said to be wearing a blue skirt)




The story also contradicts O'donnels account of Thursday lunchtime.


I'm with Hi-de-ho on this one, no definite proof of life after Sunday Lunch

If this happened at all  on a previous day say, then where were the twins supposed to be  ?  More likely mistaken identity again is my opinion.



(The Boyd's own photo's appear to me, to be at the Ocean club poolside on Saturday/Sunday.)

Just want to commend HideHo for her excellent and in-depth research works

What is puzzling me is, why is there a crèche record for the 29th April, when, according to Amy
Tierney's statement, and I quote "The hours of the club are from 09.00 to 12.30 and from 14.30 to 17.30, the club is closed on Sundays on that day it only offers the dinner service"

Grande Finale wrote:Regarding the Vicky Boyd magazine article, GM finished tennis at 11.10am on thursday morning a time when Maddie was supposedly signed in at the creche. So how could she be playing football with Louie Boyd for an hour ?


The big pointer to me though is that there is no mention of the TWINS in this article BUT also of note (if this was supposed to have happened on the Thursday lunch the story clashes with the "LAST PHOTO" as she is said to be wearing a blue skirt)




The story also contradicts O'donnels account of Thursday lunchtime.


I'm with Hi-de-ho on this one, no definite proof of life after Sunday Lunch

If this happened at all  on a previous day say, then where were the twins supposed to be  ?  More likely mistaken identity again is my opinion.



(The Boyd's own photo's appear to me, to be at the Ocean club poolside on Saturday/Sunday.)

There is so much about this article that discredits it to be of any value.

One sentence reveals it as not only being non credible but one has to wonder if they were ever by the children's pool in the OC.

There was no waterslide!

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The two children were kicking a football around in the play area for about an hour?  This was during lunchtime from the creche.  The McCanns had (supposedly) gone down to poolside from 1.30pm - 2.40pm and during this time taken the last picture.

There is no credibility in any of the article and I havd no trouble discounting it as being proof that Madeleine was seen by them on Thursday.

_____________________________________

Below I have touched on a non discussed issue, that appears to be very confusing, but with scrutiny, actually is quite a huge discrepancy that could damage the credibility of the Last picture being taken on Thursday..

Gerry playing tennis?  Rachael and Jane claim to have been playing tennis at this time and no mention of Gerry pkaying on the other court.

According to Jane she saw the family and Madeleine was shouting through the fence at her...

Rachael, however has a different recollection...

Rachael only mentions seeing  the parents and (this is where it gets very confusing and worthwhile of being a topic on its own) claims to have seen Madeleine for the last time earlier that morning while Maddie was at mini tennis.

Firstly, this would mean that Rachael DID NOT see Maddie during her tennis game (when the last picture was supposedly taken)

According to records the Lobsters mini tennis was TUESDAY in which case it raises a few questions:

1) Was Rachael confused about the tennis being Tuesday instead of Thursday? If so, was TUESDAY the last time Rachael saw Maddie?

2) If Rachael didn't see Maddie at the time of the last picture, was she really there?  If she wasn't there it leads to another question...

3) If Rachael wasn't there then Jane wasn't playing tennis with her and didnt see Maddie shouting through the fence at her!

Debunks Jane and Rachael seeing the family at the pool for the last picture! In other words, were Rachael and Jane 'supposed' to confirm the last picture being taken?

Going back to Rachael... She claims to have seen Maddie playing mini tennis Thursday morning... In a scenario that Rachael was trying to be 'helpful' placing Maddie alive on Thursday, she may have seen the Sharks mini tennis game and not realised that Maddie's game was on Tuesday so decided to be helpful an put Maddie playing tennis, alive and well on Thursday morning...

This would account for the scenario (if it happened at all) that Jane and Kate did not mention seeing Rachael at mini tennis (on Tuesday) 

Gerry was also supposed to be at mini tennis but he was playing tennis himself until 11.15 so couldn't have been there!

Add to this that the police questioned Rachael on which court she saw the mini tennis being played.. She answered incorrectly (according to tennis records.)

As can be seen the above 'mini tennis' issue along with Jane and Rachael supposedly playing tennis on Thursday lunchtime highlights some disturbing contradictions...

If Rachael was lying about seeing Maddie for the last time at mini tennis that (Thursday) morning then why did she not see the same as Jane? Maddie shouting through the fence!

One of them is telling a porkie and leads to doubts as to whether they were there... If Rachael wasn't there then Jane wasn't there either... If Jane and Rachael WERE there then is Jane lying about seeing Maddie shouting through the fence?

Was Jane there?

Was Rachael there?

Was Kate and Gerry there?

More importantly...was Maddie there?

aiyoyo wrote:Just want to commend HideHo for her excellent and in-depth research works

Thanks aiyoyo 

I did 4 years of in depth research on all the statements compiling them into timelines and timetables (more than 300 in total).

This gave me an overall view of the activities and times during the holiday and what they claim to have happened at any specific time (some days are 15 minute intervals)

I then went on to use the research in my compiled videos (for the next two years) and then 'arrived' on Facebook groups.

FB is primarily trying to help newbies and the same basic info is regurgitated endlessly, but the point of my group is to stick to the files and facts, allow everyone to view the links and decide for themselves in the hope that (along with the vids) more of the UK will learn about the files.

This was the trade-off of being able to discuss in depth the extraordinary discrepancies that resulted from the original research.

I saw some as I was putting the timetables together but when copying and pasting portions of statements to the tables and timelines I didn't always compare so I know there are many more that I have missed.

Now it is relatively quiet on FB and with wonderful admin that I can now leave for periods of time, I have a little more time to get back to the research for posts etc, but it can never be in depth on fb.  The format does not allow for it.

I would love if possible to have the discrepancies scrutinised in here where there is a wealth of informed members who can maybe find that one discrepancy that exposes their lies or even to discuss the HUGE discrepancies that I have already found but have not seen the light of day in discussions.

It bothers me to have so much info and research and the overall 'picture' is retained only in my mind.

Maybe someone else could revisit and add some fresh thoughts and opinions to what I believe is one of the most important areas of this case..

My overall theories and opinions are based entirely on that research which noone else has scrutinised, so how can I expect anyone to blindly believe what I 'see'?

This thread in my REF FORUM may give you an idea of some of the topics I would love to have scrutinised and discussed  by others....

Title: DISCREPANCY LIST & ALL RESEARCH LINKS (from witness statements)
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Here are the first few...

Discrepancy Questions..
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1 Why did the Paynes and Matthew Oldfield claim to have passed each other in very different places on the way to the tapas and Dianne Webster claimed to have not seen him until her Rogatory when she remembered because Dave and Fiona had reminded her.

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2 Why did Rachael claim the last time she saw Madeleine was at mini tennis on Thursday. Madeleine's group played on Tuesday. Is Tuesday the last time she saw her?
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3 Why did Rachael describe the mini tennis as played on Court 1, when the records show it was Court 2. (the police seemed to find it important by questioning her)
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4 Why did Catriona claim that Gerry wasn't at high tea on May 3rd and that she thought he was at tennis, when both Kate and Gerry claim he was there.
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5 Why did Gerry claim to have entered the front door and opened the patio doors for Kate who was carrying Madeleine back from high tea on May 3rd. Kate says they all went in through the front doors.
6 Why did they give different accounts of Madeleine asking about why they didn't come to her. (She asked her father, she asked Kate, it was the twins crying, it was her crying etc)
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7 Why did Gerry claim that he picked Madeleine up from the creche on Thursday lunch (he remembered taking the short cut) when Kate and Fiona claim they walked together. Kate says she went to the apartment first, Fiona said they left from the pool area.
8 Why did the police compile the Diagram of Events according to Catriona telling them that she only went to the beach twice, on Tuesday and Wednesday afternoon, not mentioning the mini sail.
9 Why did they not release Thursday diagram or twins creche record for Thursday morning?
10 Why, after the family's trip to the beach Tuesday lunchtime (for 5 ice creams) did they drop Madleine off at the creche in time for her to go on another trip (to the beach?) for ice cream trip
11 Why did Catriona claim they went to the beach 15.30 to 16.30 on Tuesday and Wednesday and did not mention the ice cream trip, 2.30pm-3.30pm Tuesday according to the Activity sheet.
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12 Why did Kate receive a 'flurry' of phone calls (between 10.16pm and 10.27pm) in the 15 minutes prior to Mrs Fenn hearing the crying Was she at the tapas as she claims they did not arrive back until 11.00pm?
13 Why did Kate make (unusual) very early morning calls to her friend (Amanda, her husband is a pathologist) on Wednesday morning?
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14 Why did Najoua the quiz mistress claim that no-one (including Gerry) left the table during the time she was there (9.00pm-9.50pm?) and she does not recall seeing Kate or David Payne at the table. Just an empty place setting.
15 Why did Catriona claim to have seem Jane and David at the beach when she was at the mini sail. Why would she have known David?
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16 Where are the pictures of Ella taken at the mini sail and why (with only a few children) was Madeleine not in the picture.
17 Did Catriona take the children to the mini sail alone? Why is there no statement from the other nannies to say they went?
18 Why did the police not interview Alice Stanley and Chris Unsworth, the mini sail instructors?
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19 Why is there not one credible sighting of Madeleine after Sunday lunchtime when she was seen by the cleaner's daughter leaving the apartment for lunch at the Paynes?
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20 Why did Kate claim the shutters were broken on Sunday and the maintenance fixed them on Monday when records shows it was Tuesday. Why did they need to show her how to use the washing machine?
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21 Why did the cleaner claim there was a cot in the parents bedroom on Wednesday morning and both Gerry and Kate denied it was there?

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If you as a layperson, after in-depth analyzing of data that you sorted, compiled and compared, can come up with the hypothesis that she may have died earlier than the official version, then one assumes the MET Police with their sophisticated HOLMES II software - an information technology tool that can carefully process the mass of information it was provided with - couldn't have missed the obvious clue/s. It's a mystery why they announced publicly that it was a stranger abduction.

Also, quite how Op Grange can declare the Mcs & friends not 'persons of interest' to the investigation is  a mystery given that their statements and depositions are riddled with discrepancies, and given also they have the HOLMES II software at their disposal.

aiyoyo wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
If you as a layperson, after in-depth analyzing of data that you sorted, compiled and compared, can come up with the hypothesis that she may have died earlier than the official version, then one assumes the MET Police with their sophisticated HOLMES II software - an information technology tool that can carefully process the mass of information it was provided with - couldn't have missed the obvious clue/s.  It's a mystery why they announced publicly that it was a stranger abduction.

Also, quite how Op Grange can declare the Mcs & friends not 'persons of interest' to the investigation is  a mystery given that their statements and depositions are riddled with discrepancies, and given also they have the HOLMES II software at their disposal.

And yet you don't believe there's a conspiracy?

Hi kinell,
Only to pull the wool down over non-believers faces, ask DCI Andy Redwood and SIO Hamish Campbell, investigating officers on Operation Grange, why/how they came to their Conclusion of Tapas group not suspects, or are these two officers leaving themselves open to charges of "Perverting the Course of Justice, CrimeWatch October 2013?