McCann Interview and VideoTranscripts

Fox News - 10th September 2007

VAN SUSTEREN: According to the British media, Portuguese police say Kate McCann  failed to prevent her daughter Madeleine's death, and they now claim proof. This proof, according to reports, includes forensic evidence found at the Portuguese apartment where the McCanns were staying with Madeleine. It also includes the car the family rented nearly a month after they reported the toddler missing.

Forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden joins us.

DR. MICHAEL BADEN, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Hi, Greta.

VAN SUSTEREN: Good evening, Dr. Baden. Dr. Baden, I must admit I find the reports perplexing in this story, and I'm not sure what to believe and what not to believe and how to be fair to the McCanns and fair to Madeleine and everybody else involved.

BADEN: Well, I think what's happening is we may be going down the road of three recent notorious cases. The worst of them, Jon Benet Ramsey. They call up (ph) a kidnapping. The police come, and they don't protect the scene. They muck up the scene. They never solve it properly. This was — this — the Portuguese police should have sealed and protected the scene. They didn't.

Natalee Holloway, where the concern was more, in my opinion, tourism than finding the possibility that a local could have killed a tourist. And many people in Aruba still think that Natalie Holloway ran away and is alive or that the family had something to do.

And the Duke players, where the prosecution claimed they had more evidence than they really had.

And I think — remember, 25 days, the body is severely decomposing. Where do they keep a decomposing body that has a terrible odor within a few days? Have they put it in the back of a car? If there was DNA from the body in the back of the car, it would have soaked into the rug. They couldn't get rid of it. Instead, apparently, the McCanns had hired the car to take away a lot of their clothing elsewhere, including the baby's, Madeleine's, clothing and toys, which have DNA on it.

VAN SUSTEREN: So you'd have a transference, which (INAUDIBLE)

BADEN: A transference of hair, of skin cells into the back of the car. I don't believe they could have blood, red blood still in a 25-day-old body.

VAN SUSTEREN: All right. Let me ask two questions because, I mean, I find this whole DNA transference thing as the most likely thing, but I don't know. It's early in the investigation.

BADEN: Right.

VAN SUSTEREN: In the event that they found her blood this late, could they tell whether or not there was any drug in the blood? If you find some dried-up blood, you know, three months or four months later...

BADEN: It's possible. It's amazing what they can do now. Toxicology has advanced tremendously. And even with drops of blood — you know, large drops of blood — they can find whether or not there are drugs in that blood. It's unlikely because after 25 days, the blood would have all turned greenish and wouldn't be recognized as blood.

VAN SUSTEREN: All right. One other sort of unusual situation here. These are in vitro babies...

BADEN: That's right.

VAN SUSTEREN: ... the two babies that they — and I guess that we don't know if they truly are both the biological parents of these — of Madeleine. So any blood that was found, would that have a DNA twist to it in terms of trying to determine...

BADEN: That would. When they say it matches Madeleine, how do they know what Madeleine's DNA is? They haven't found Madeleine. They don't know what her DNA is. And the parents would know whether or not it was his sperm and her egg, but...

VAN SUSTEREN: So there's another whole 'nother twist to it...

BADEN: That's another...

VAN SUSTEREN: ... that needs to be investigated.

BADEN: Another issue, yes.

VAN SUSTEREN: All right. Well, we just got to stick to the facts and see what we can figure out. Thank you, Dr. Baden.

BADEN: Thank you, Greta.

[Acknowledgement pamalam]

Gerry mentions murder transcript

Gerry McCann: Its an encouraging thing that um they are looking at all possibilities and being very thorough and err its an excellent example of collaboration, between both the British and the Portuguese police...working together ultimately to try and solve the case of Madeleine and whats happened to her.

Kate McCann: Yeah,I mean we've got an excellent relationship with the Portuguese Police and we need to keep that link um and the flow of information has been great actually,its been very reassuring.

Gerry McCann: We very much know that you know, they like frank information and its much easier for us to deal with when they do that and err we were well aware that these developments were going to happen. We were informed in advance but naturally this length of time we're desperate to find Madeleine. Thats the key thing. Of course um its difficult but we expect the same thoroughness and be treated the same way as anyone else who has been in and around us.I mean we would'nt expect it any other way. We're not naive err but on numerous ocassions the Portuguese police have assured us that they were looking for Madeleine alive and not murdered..being murdered and I don't know of any information thats changed that. Of course, the information and the way the investigations going is about thoroughness and making sure that everyone is as confident as possible..that...that is the case um Kate and I strongly believe that Madeleine was alive when she was taken from the apartment. Obviously what we don't know, is what happened to her afterwards , whose taken her and what the motive is and we are desperate to find that out.

Kate McCann: And as Gerry just said (inaudible). Police said they are looking for a living child and they have said that a lot.

Jon Corner - CNN Newsroom Interview aired on 7th September 2007

HARRIS: John Corner joins us now. He is a friend to the McCanns and the godfather to their twins.

John, good to talk to you.

What is your reaction to the news that Kate McCann is now a suspect in the disappearance of Maddie?

JOHN CORNER, FRIEND OF MCCANNS: Well, I'm appalled, but I'm also frustrated. You know, I've worked very, very hard with Kate and Gerry in the campaign to find our missing child and our missing Madeleine. And what we're worried about truly is that this investigation or this new line that the Portuguese police have taken is going to derail those real efforts.

You know, we were in Spain only a few weeks ago and dropping posters in different towns in Spain. And what we were amazed that is 50 percent of the people that we were approaching had never heard of Madeleine. And that's what we're up against right at street level of getting those posters out. And that advice had come to us from the U.S. The International Center for Missing and Exploited Children have been marvelous in their support and guidance and direction. They're the world experts. And they're saying to us, you know, six months in an average time. So hang on in there. Keep looking for Madeleine. And now this.

HARRIS: Well, John, I'm trying to understand here, Kate is now an official formal suspect. You believe she had nothing to do with this disappearance?

CORNER: Absolutely. Absolutely.

HARRIS: So why do you think she's a suspect? And have you heard -- you certainly are aware of the new evidence that seems to be pointing, at least the authorities, in her direction?

CORNER: Well, you know, whenever Kate and Gerry hear that there's new evidence or new technological evidence, it gives them hope because they think the Portuguese police are going to have a new breakthrough, it's going to lead us to whoever's abducted Madeleine. It's going to allow us to get her back home safely. And I think it's truly frustrating and exasperating. It's just dreadful that the mind set of the police is quite the opposite, that they're actually looking into the parents and not looking out, not doing the search, not doing the intensive work that we really need . . .

HARRIS: You would have been surprised -- John, you would have been surprised if the authorities hadn't looked at the parents, wouldn't you?

CORNER: Well, you know, Kate and Gerry were interviewed at some length in that first few days. Interviewed extensively. And that's good -- that due diligence, that's good practice. You know, all police forces do that. You look, you interview the parents, you clear them and you move on and we get out there and find Madeleine. And for us to come full circle after four months is just dreadful. It's (INAUDIBLE).

HARRIS: Well, how do you explain the apparent break-through in the case? You mentioned a break-through a moment ago. Well, there has been a break-through in the case, according to the authorities. How do you explain the blood in the rental car? A car rented more than 20 days after Maddie was reported missing? How do you explain it?

CORNER: It defies explanation, quite frankly. I have no idea. It flies in the face of common sense. I could speculate all day about that, but . . . HARRIS: Well wait a minute, John. I mean this is DNA evidence. This is DNA found in a rental car that was rented by the couple 20 days -- I'm just asking you, how do you explain it?

CORNER: It makes -- I can't explain it. It makes no sense. It makes no sense.

HARRIS: Do you or do you not . . .

CORNER: I just know that . . .

HARRIS: Do you not trust what the authorities are saying to you? Have you talked to Gerry or Kate about the new evidence?

CORNER: No, I haven't. Not about new evidence. Only about the police line of questioning last night. And, quite frankly, it makes no sense to me and I can't speculate on it. You know, it just -- it makes no sense at all.

HARRIS: So the authorities come back, let me just try this on you. The authorities come back to Kate and to Gerry because the question lingers, who leaves a three-year-old to watch two-year-old twins. Who does that?

CORNER: Well, you have to understand the situation. I think the only thing that Kate and Gerry are guilty of is a little bit of complacency. It's a very, very sleepy town. Well, it certainly was before the media . . .

HARRIS: Complacency? How about neglect?

CORNER: There has been police force (ph) . . .

HARRIS: How about neglect? How about child endangerment?

CORNER: Well, I disagree with that. I disagree with that. And if you talk to the International Center for Missing and Exploited Children, they disagree with that, too.

HARRIS: So as a general practice, it's OK with you, in your mind and the way you think for a three-year-old to be left to care for two- year-old twins?

CORNER: I'm not sure that's productive at this stage to talk about that. I mean, I've been to (INAUDIBLE). I've looked at it very carefully myself. And it literally was like sitting in your garden. That's how far away the apartment was.

HARRIS: OK. John Corner is a friend of the McCanns and, John, some tough questions to ask you, but we appreciate you stepping up to take those questions on for us.

CORNER: Yes.

HARRIS: Appreciate it. Thank you.

Kate and Gerry McCann BBC Breakfast 01 May 2008

Bill Turnbull : On Saturday it'll be a year since Madeleine McCann disappeared from her family's holiday apartment in Portugal.

Sian Williams : And to mark this anniversary her parents Kate and Gerry are making a fresh appeal for information to find her. They joined us now. Hello to you both ! Thank you very much for coming in.

Why the media blitz ? In the documentary last night, Gerry, you said the whole world now knows about Madeleine MC, so why are you appealing for more information, is there any more information ?

Gerald McCann : That's the.., I think there is more information. The problem we have is we've always said that we would leave no stone unturned and we don't know what information is in the inquiry, what is not in the inquiry, what has been done and what hasn't been done, errm I think it's unlikely everything has been done and we need to know that because it's our daughter, we strongly believe she's still out there. People may not have come forward before, they may have come forward the information may not be seen as relevant, so we really want to appeal to people and clearly there's going to be absolutely huge media attention on us and this is trying to capitalize on that and there's going to be media attention whether we participated or not.

BT : We had a lot of emails from viewers, some supportive, some critical, some asking questions we can put some to you if we may, but let's just feel (video repeat) that one asks many times and says I understand that you must have been asked this a million times but she wants to know as a mother of a young child herself why you felt it was ok to leave the children while you went out to have some food. It's a question that keeps coming back and I know you've answered it many times, but people still want the answer.

Kate McCann :  I think that's right, I think we have answered and errm personally I feel we have been persecuted enough about this matter, and we do that to ourselves so we don't really need to keep going over it and I've heard many times I couldn't love Madeleine more than I do I would have done anything, I had no idea that there was a risk.. And I can't say more, really.

GMC : And there are 2 things there, the first is we felt completely safe, if we had had any inkling that it was unsafe we wouldn't have done it, the second thing is that we can't change it, you know, what we have done as we discovered Madeleine was taken, and we have done anything there, you know, no matter how many times...

KMC : (interrupting/speaking over) Let's not forget, let's not forget, you know, there has been an evil crime committed, you know whatever anybody says about us, is it right for somebody to go into your apartment and take your child out of her bed ?

BT : Do you think that's what happened because some people wonder is that what happened or is it possible that Madeleine woke up, was upset, went wandering looking for you and got lost that way...

KMC : (interrupting) I know, I know what has happened, I can't give too many details, can I, but I know my daughter, I know what I found and that's all I can say !

GMC : I mean that's very important, we are in a very difficult situation, because the files are still under judicial secrecy, we're not allowed to let out investigational details and therefore there is a number of issues, the way the room was...

KMC : And we know more than a lot of people actually (superior) standing up there, giving their opinions, we know more facts and a lot of people are just speculating.

SW : And you say that you can't tell us  those facts because you're still official suspects and still uninvolved...

KMC : (speaking over, protesting) No, it's judicial secrecy, you know...

SW : You know, you said the night before Madeleine and Sean had been very upset and

KMC : (speaking over) I didn't say that actually.

SW : That was in the statement wasn't it that was leaked out... Was that not the case ? Was she not upset the night before and talked to you the night before ?

KMC tries to protest.. despising

GMC : (very calm) Errm, what we said was.. the next morning Madeleine had said "why didn't you come when we cried last night ?" and at the time we thought "that's odd" and we looked at each other and asked her directly what she meant and she just dropped and moved on. And we thought, when the time we've been (mumble) checking it would be exceptional for particularly the twins to cry and go back to sleep in between our checks so... Obviously kids cry all the time when they're bathed, when they're tired and when you're doing that now we did wonder when they were getting put to bed or around that time, and I think you have to remember that for us everything is seen in context with the abduction. And at that time we had a very relaxed family holiday and yes it was a little line there (? strange) but ...

KMC : (interrupting) You know, hindsight is a wonderful thing. If what happened didn't happened we wouldn't, you know, it wouldn't have crossed our minds again that Madeleine was making that comment, because of what happened, suddenly it was significant and that's the reason why we told the police.

BT : A lot of children are taking a close interest, are concerned with what happened. Ryan, 12 years old, asks how much it is affecting the other children, the twins, as you mentioned nearly three, a year on how staying strong for yourself and the children. The twins, what do they know about this ?

KMC : I mean Sean and Amelie are amazing little people and, you know, they love Madeleine very much and Madeleine was with them for most of their life, you know, she's still very much in their life and they know she's missing and they know that everyone is looking for her, but as yet, you know, they're not asking more questions and to be honest we can't tell them really, because we don't know.''

SW : I just want to put that one as well. He is 13, he asks similar questions as the young people writing to us, so deeply concerned if you're happy, when you come home, what's happened to them asking their parents, all the time, you know, are we going to get more news about Maddie, you know that yourself, and then he says, if the twins do ask you where Maddie is or if they will ask you, what will you tell them, what, what form of words will you...KMC : We don't know, we don't know but we're looking for her, that's all we can say.

GMC (speaking over) : They know errm people generally say she went missing and that we are looking for her. The fact that so many kids know about Madeleine is important to us, is actually because certainly in the States with information went out in posters it may be a child to recognize as Madeleine and they may see them through different ways, change their hair and different things like.., so that piece of information could well come from a child...KMC : And kids are amazing, I've had a 3 year old say to his mummy : "Mommy, that's Madeleine's mommy" and then I've had another little child pinpointing Amelie and saying "Mom, that's Madeleine". So the children are actually very perceptive...

SW : (interrupting) It makes some very worried as well, that's another thing, and although the campaign is really valuable in terms of getting more information, Caroline sends us an email saying that a lot of children are asking whether they're going to be abducted in the night and whether the parents are going to protect them, so in a way sometimes this is causing even more concern for children, however valuable it is, but can you see that difficulty with parents who are constantly having to ensure the children that they won't get snatched in the night ?

KMC : I think every parent knows their child and knows what their child (smiling) is able to take on board really and I think most parents find if they're honest with the children and reassuring...

GMC : (interrupting and obviously stopping KMC) : Did that, I mean that situation there is very much, it's terrible we have to think like this and clearly where we were, at the time, in an environment it was the farthest thing from our mind and it's clearly brought this home, these crimes happen, they're more commoner than we think, a lot of crimes are unreported, may be possibly even underreported, in terms of professional recording, but clearly under reported in the media, and it's terrible, but that's a real life thing, these crimes are horrific, it's a crime and there's an abductor out there and he may strike again, I'm not saying everyone should think about that, clearly if you are in a locked apartment, in a house, there are people there, the chances are very slim and this is so real..

BT : (interrupting) Can I ask you a question about the police inquiry in Portugal, one or two things, have you been asked to take part in a reconstruction and under what circumstances would you go back ?GMC : There is a dialog and that's been reported errm clearly there's a day out there and it's under discussion and no final decision has been made, errm, and I have to say that the prospect of going back with the media trying to watch a reconstruction doesn't appeal us and our emotions, for us...to consider that.. I think there's also other issues.. KMC : (speaking over, inaudible).

GMC : How much more information will that get us, one year on, you know, and we have told everything to the police.

KMC : If we believed that it would help find Madeleine, but that's the issue really

GMC : And our friends were voluntarily taking part recently in interviews in Leicestershire, they've given all the information and they had lots of opportunity and our friends stayed in Portugal for 10 days after Madeleine was taken.

SW : How much, what do you think the public is thinking when it comes to this case; I only ask because in the documentary last night you had these boxes with supportive letters and very unsupportive letters, really quite very nasty letters as well. Can you understand why people are so angry, I don't know, so angry about this and the fact that Madeleine went missing when you were on the night..

KMC : (interrupting) I mean to be honest, a lot of the nasty ones (were) about that. We do get letters like that but some of the nasty ones are almost nasty for nasty sake and I think that has been incredibly shocking because we are not like that, we don't know people who are like that; it's quite, I suppose it's quite scary, a bit of an eye opener, really  how people could be filled with so much venom and whatever we do they'll write and criticize you know.

BT : It is, it is the way everybody in the public eye is going to get that (inaudible)
.
GMC : (interrupting) The bottom line is that Madeleine is a four years old girl who's a victim, she's completely innocent and respect we are doing best to find her and to get information to help us find her and this is an international problem, it's an international inquiry, and we want people to come forward, whether or not they have done previously.

BT : Ok, just to balance things up because we have asked you some challenging questions, we have supportive emails, somebody saying "may I express my support for you both, I admire the way you cope with the publicity both good and bad like the true professionals you are". There are others who text me and say their prayers are with you on a daily basis.

G & K MC : Thank you.

SW : Good luck, thank you very much for coming and if anybody had information there's that new number to contact the police (repeat twice the number) and as Gerry was saying it may have been a year on, but somebody might know something and however small it is, call that number and tell the police about it.

[Acknowledgement Anna Guedes & Meadows for transcript]

Brian Healy, Madeleine's grandfather - interview with Sky News 7th September 2007

Reporter:  What do you know about what Kate is thinking, feeling about the kind of direction this inquiry is taking.

Brian Kennedy:  Inaudible...The thing is Kate and Gerry are not involved and the stuff must have been planted there, you know the DNA is there, its just unbelievable.

Reporter:  What you think, you think that someone may have deliberately?

Brian:  Well, the perpetrator or someone else has put it there, because I know Kate and Gerry would not harm Madeleine at all.

Reporter:  And you think someone may have planted DNA to try and implicate them?

Brian:  Yes, I think so.

Reporter:  Is it possible that Kate with her medical background ,might have, wanted to help Madeleine to go to sleep that night?

Brian:  Not at all.

Reporter:  Even out of kindness, she she certainly would not have given her....

Brian:  Not even out of kindness, I think they may have used Calpol like most mothers do....(inaudible). first and foremost they wouldn't have done that.

Reporter:  What effect is it having Mr. Healy on the family generally, particularly the way things are going in Portugal?
 
Brian:  Um well, my sister in law had a collapse the other day it might have been pressure, it might have been tension, I dont know. Its affected all of us. My sister from Canada rang today, she is so upset , she has not been to bed all night.

Reporter:  How about you? cause you've not been well have you?

Brian:  Well, I think its err I'm just horrified ,that anyone could even think that my daughter would do such a thing. I know she hasn't done anything to harm Madeleine. ,Gerry the same, its just devastating to hear people would even think it.


Reporter:  What's your view of the Portuguese Police now and the way the Investigation has been conducted.

Brian:  We've been through weeks and months, we've been very supportive of the Portuguese Police. I don't know. I just don't know. I'M not that happy.

Reporter:  You say for weeks you've been supportive but you don't feel that way anymore?

Brian:  No, I am beginning to doubt. When people have tried to bad mouth the Portuguese police we have always shied away from it, but I don't care any more.

Reporter:  So, what are your views now with the Portuguese police?

Brian:  Well, I dont want to say too much. I'm not happy with them, lets put it that way.

Reporter:  Your clearly concerned about the way ....

Brian:  Yes

Reporter:  Do you feel that they will not now get the level of support they have had from the family thus far?

Brian:  Well, they've already taken eleven hours of support away by interviewing Kate, for that time why weren't they out looking for Madeleine, or doing something?. This is just a waste of time ...a farce...it would be a joke if it wasn't so disgusting.

Reporter:  Why do you think they have taken this course?

Brian:  I don't know. I just say one thing ,in Faro airport. I never saw one poster of Madeleine . They are concerned about the tourist industry, you know, they, Philly McCann and a friend of hers were bodily escorted out of the airport one time...(inaudible). They are terrified that their tourist industry is going to be hit.


Reporter:  You think that they fear that all of this will affect their tourist industry?

Brian:  I think they just want Kate and Gerry out of their country and close it all down.

Reporter:  Now Kate and Gerry were planning to return this week-end were they not?. Whats the latest on that?

Brian:  Inaudible...I don't know , we will have to wait and see.

Reporter:  What do you think will be going through Kates mind now, because she's been very supportive too, publicly at least, towards the Portuguese Police ?

Brian:  I don't know,. I think she will be bewildered and be horrified that anyone can even think that of her, you know.

Reporter:  What would you say to her if she were with you now?

Brian:  I'd just hug her to death

Reporter:  Do you want a break? are you O:K:?

Brian:  No, No...I just want to hug her to death. She is so unprotected over there...you know..

Reporter:  How do you get through it?


Brian:  Well, funny enough I sleep well of a night. I don't spend an hour without thinking about Madeleine. Sometimes, I go down dark roads, other times you know, tend to forget about her and it gets easier ...and then suddenly, it hits you and like someone kicking you in the stomach...you know...

Reporter:  Do you believe that Madeleine will be found?

Brian:  Well, according to Gerry he's seen stuff that we haven't seen and there's nothing as yet to suggest that she's dead. We have got to believe that she's alive.

Reporter:  What is it like for you, as a father of this woman, to hear accusations about that she may have played a part in the Madeleine disappearance?

Brian:  It's unbelievable, disgusting and obscene. My daughters not like that , I know her.

McCann Interview - Expresso 6th September 2008

Q – What are you presently doing to find Madeleine?
Gerry – We have had private investigators working with us for several months. Now that the case has been archived, it’s easier because we accessed the process. We carried out new interviews with those that had already testified. And we interviewed others who approached us and had never spoken before.
Kate – As we didn’t know what the PJ had done, we repeated everything that seemed important to us.

Q – Do the new witnesses offer clues about the disappearance?
Gerry – Some report sightings, but it’s not likely that they lead to our daughter. We are more interested in persons that offer credible information that can be verified through photographs or in another form; persons who know who may be involved.

Q – What impression did you get from the process? Were you shocked over its contents?
Gerry – We were investigated into the smallest detail. There are entire volumes about us. We can jump those. It must be disquieting information that will not help us to find Madeleine.

Q – Don’t you think that everything that was possible to do, was done? The investigation reached Poland, the Netherlands, Spain, Morocco…
Gerry – Morocco is a good example of what went wrong. A sighting was reported and it was said that there were cameras at the petrol station. When the inspectors went there, they concluded that there were none. The truth is that there were none in the pump area, but in the shop. And when the PJ returned, the tape had been recorded over.
Kate – It’s difficult to describe how it feels to have our daughter taken away… We want to see action everywhere. We wanted spotlights, we wanted helicopters, we wanted everyone on the street, searching.

Q – If Madeleine had disappeared in England, would things have been different?
Gerry – If it had happened in a British city, I have no doubts. But I don’t know if it would have been different if we had been in a small village in Scotland. Clearly, the English police are more experienced in abductions, they are more alert.

Q – If you have an important clue concerning Madeleine’s whereabouts, will you transmit it to the Portuguese police?
Gerry – If something needs to be done in Portugal, we’ll have to. We cannot go around breaking doors down or arresting people. But only when we feel that we cannot advance any further on our own.

Q – Do you trust the Portuguese authorities, after having been considered suspects?
Gerry – We wouldn’t mind if we had been investigated at the beginning, if they thought that could help. But months later, when the evidence had been lost? It’s that once the suspicion is installed, we can never prove our innocence again.

Q – Didn’t you find it strange that the dogs found traces of blood in your room and in your rental car…
Gerry – There was no blood found! The indicia are worthless if they are not corroborated by forensic information. And they were not.

Q – 40 apartments were investigated and the dogs only marked yours. Ten cars and they only reacted to yours.
Gerry – These dogs’ frailty was proved by a study that was carried out in the USA, in the case of a man that had been accused of murder. They had ten rooms, and in each room four boxes were placed, containing vegetables, bones, trash. Some contained human remains. They stayed there for ten hours. Eight hours after the boxes were removed, the dogs came in. And the dogs failed two thirds of the attempts. Imagine the reliability when these dogs test an apartment three months after the disappearance of a child.

Q – Were you surprised when you were made arguidos?
Kate – It was not surprising after weeks with the media saying that we were suspects. And there we have to ask why the information that reached the media was disfigured. Why do the newspapers say that blood was found in the apartment when the police report does not confirm it? Why was it said that the DNA that was found in the car was a 100% match with Madeleine’s?

Gerry – In a way, we would like to have been accused so we could defend ourselves openly. Now, reading the process, there is no evidence that justifies the suspicion, apart from the dogs’ action. There was never a sustained explanation. And the questioning: ‘What happened to Madeleine? How did you get rid of her? Who helped you? Where did you put her? All fantasy! If they had found DNA – so what? And if Madeleine had hurt herself inside the apartment – why would that be our fault?

Q – Do you investigate information that point towards Madeleine’s death?
Kate – We want to find her alive, but if she is dead we want to know.

Q – Do you still believe that she’s alive?
Kate – There are great possibilities that she is alive, isn’t it? There is nothing in the process to indicate that something bad has happened to her…

Q – But there are no indicia that she has been abducted, either.
Gerry – We firmly believe that she was abducted by a man, minutes after I went to see her in the bedroom. There are two independent witnesses that saw a child of around four years of age being carried that evening. Our friend Jane Tanner and also the Smith family.

Q – The PJ discredits Jane Tanner’s testimony. They say that when she saw said man with the child, you [Gerry] were chatting nearby and it was impossible that you hadn’t seen him as well…

Gerry – I didn’t see her because my back was turned to the location where she passed. I was talking to a friend. And there is also the couple with children that saw a man carrying a child with a pyjama that was similar to Madeleine’s, blond hair, the same age.

Q – Later on, that family stated that the man they saw was Gerry…
Gerry – At that time I was at the restaurant. The fact that we became suspects has probably influenced the Smiths’ testimony.

Q – Was it a coincidence that you were made arguidos on one day and returned home the next day?
Gerry – They questioned us on that day because the PJ knew about our return.

Q – Were you afraid of being arrested?
Kate – Obviously. At a certain point we didn’t know very well what could happen.
Gerry – From the information in the newspapers, of course we were afraid. It was scary.

Q – Being in England, you would not be extradited anymore.
Gerry – We asked the inspector that was in charge of the case of he had any objection: the answer was no. It’s obvious that we were afraid that people might think we were escaping, but it was better not to be in Portugal at that point in time.

Q – Why?
Kate – Because of the hostile environment. We couldn’t even leave the house.

Q – Why did Kate refuse to answer questions during your interrogation, that Gerry accepted to clarify the next day?
Kate – I was advised by my Portuguese lawyer not to reply.

Gerry – I received the same advice but decided to disobey. My plan was to remain silent, but the first question was: are you involved in your daughter’s disappearance? It was nonsense and I decided to answer. From there onwards, I replied to all of them.

Q – Why didn’t you authorize the police to see the messages that you sent and received on your mobile phone on the eve of Maddie’s disappearance.
Gerry – Nobody asked to see my messages. On the day before and on the day of the disappearance I did not receive or send 16 messages. I could hardly write a text message. I received three or four phone calls and two were from work. After the disappearance I received hundreds. And when the police asked me for the registry, I told them to ask the service provider. My phone only registers the last ten.

Q – The chief inspector in the case, Tavares de Almeida, writes a report where he says that your friends lied to save you, that Maddie died in the living room, and that you hid the body.
Gerry – What can we say? You will have to ask the police chiefs why they wrote that, why they saw us as suspects.

Q – The majority of crimes where the victims are children are committed by the parents.
Gerry – Not in the case of abducted children. And this is a case of an abducted child. It’s an exceptional case.

Q – When he archived the case, the prosecutor said that the investigation can be reopened if a new clue appears. Do you think that is possible?
Kate – Of course! It could happen at any moment. All that it takes is for one person to make the phone call that we wait for so much. We know that she was abducted in Portugal and we vehemently believe that someone knows or suspects something.

“Mr Amaral’s behaviour is a disgrace”

Q – Former inspector Gonçalo Amaral remains convinced of your involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance. Did you read ‘The Truth of the Lie’, the book that he wrote?
Kate and Gerry – No.
Kate – Why would I?
Gerry – I won’t learn anything from reading it.

Q – It was a success in Portugal.
Gerry – Was it? How many copies did it sell?

Q – Approximately 200 thousand. Next week, it is edited in Spain.
Gerry – That is what can be called illicit enrichment.

Q – Your English lawyers already have a translated copy and they are analyzing it. Do you intend to sue Gonçalo Amaral?
Gerry – At this moment we are focused on what we can do to find Madeleine and not in suing anyone.
Kate – All that I am going to say about this – because I’m not going to waste any time on Mr Amaral – is that as a professional and as a person his behaviour has been a disgrace.

Q – Aren’t you curious to know what the book says?
Kate – What for? It must be nothing but a load of rubbish. It is so secondary… It certainly won’t help to find our daughter. My consolation is that on the cover he calls her Maddie, the name that the media have invented. We never called her anything like that.

Q – But you do know the theory that Gonçalo Amaral defends: Madeleine accidentally died in the Ocean Club apartment and you concealed the body.
Gerry – It really is a waste of time. And we need all the time that we can get to analyze the investigation’s documents, which contain a lot of information that we didn’t know about.
Kate – You just have to cross, loosely, his theory with the process in order to understand that the facts that he reports are not correct.

Q – There is a theory that defends that the coordinator was removed from the investigation due to British political pressure.
Gerry – Who dismissed him?

Q – The PJ’s national director.
Gerry – Then you have to ask him if he was pressured. Or if Gordon Brown discussed the case with him. He surely didn’t.

Q – He also resigned. And largely due to this process.
Gerry – That was not what I was told. Apparently he had a vision of the police itself that was different from the one held by the Justice Minister.

Q – In a final analysis, they both left the PJ because the investigation failed.
Gerry – That’s not our fault. I do not criticize the authorities over not trying to find Madeleine. It doesn’t matter anymore. Now all that matters is that we do everything to try to find her, through our own methods.

Q – Did you ever get to know Gonçalo Amaral?
Kate – The question is the other way around: did he get to know us?

There are photographs of her all over the house.

Q – How has your life changed with the disappearance of Madeleine?
Gerry – Independently of what happens, it will never be the same again. If you talk to the parents of other abducted children, they also mention this parallel life which we entered. Sean and Amelie, being so young, force us to introduce a certain normalcy in our lives, to make it normal for them. And it’s them who, for moments, make it normal for us. But it will never be normal for us. They are aged three and a half, and they are very, very happy.

Q – Did you explain to the twins what happened to their sister?
Kate – They perceive Madeleine’s absence perfectly. I have no doubt whatsoever. But they don’t know the details. They know that she disappeared and that we’re looking for her.
Gerry – We were advised concerning what we should tell them, how and when. Larger explanations are kept for later. We realize that they miss their older sister. They know that her not being with us is not a good thing, and they hope that she returns.

Q – How do you keep Madeleine present in your lives?
Kate – There are photographs of her all over the house. And we speak about her with the twins every day – it’s an important part of their lives. Sean and Amelie talk about her and still include her in their playing… If they receive sweets, they say “Let’s keep one for Madeleine”. Or “When she comes home I’ll give her this or that”. It’s endearing and it makes our days less difficult.

Q – Did you fear that you might lose custody over Sean and Amelie because your behaviour was considered to be negligent?
Gerry – We were not negligent, we did what any reasonable parent would do. But we deeply lament what happened, because in our action, someone saw an opportunity to take Madeleine. I’m an optimist person. I never thought that something like this could happen.

Q – Did you change the manner in which you deal with Sean and Amelie?
Gerry – We are more protective and less trusting. We never left our children alone again and many families will never do so again because of us.
Kate – Now we think about everything that can happen, about predators, abductors. We don’t even let go of them in the shopping centre.

Q – How much have you spent on the private investigation so far?
Gerry – Approximately one million pounds, over the past ten months, paid with money from the FindMadeleine fund. A substantial sum was also spent on our defence, but two benefactors have covered that expense, which means that the fund was solely used in the search for our daughter.

Q – Do you maintain the offer of 2.5 million pounds to whoever finds Madeleine?
Gerry – We do not control that reward, but everything leads me to believe that it still stands. And that there will also be money available for whoever supplies credible information.
Kate – It’s a lot of money, but we cannot set limits, a child is priceless. We’ll pay whatever is necessary.

Q – Is there still money left in the fund?
Gerry – There is still some money left. Recently, British newspapers (‘Express newspapers’) paid us a compensation of 550 thousand pounds, which fed the fund. That had an important impact. And there are still donations, people who send money directly.

Q – But less than in the beginning, before you were made arguidos.
Gerry – Of course! Those who were in doubt stopped contributing. Many write to us asking for forgiveness because they believed in our guilt. We know that we have to make an effort for people to know that there is no evidence that Madeleine is dead and that we were not involved in the disappearance.

Other issues

Dogs – “We read everything that we found about these dogs that detect cadavers. It was due to them that we became suspects”

Clues – “The sightings continue. Since May we received one thousand phone calls and an equal number of emails, some containing relevant data”

Media exposure – “Appearing in the media was never good. We did it to publicize Madeleine’s face and to find her. We failed”

Searching for Madeleine 

Martin Brunt Sky News documentary 3rd May 2017

Transcript by Anne Guedes with thanks [courtesy of pamalam at gerrymccannsblog.co.uk]

Part 1..

Martin Brunt : It's a case that has shocked, puzzled and divided the public like no other.

Kate MC : Please, please, do not scare her...

MB : For 10 years I've been following an investigation which many argue was flawed from the start.

Alan Johnson (ex-HO Secretary) : MMC deserved a proper police investigation.

MB : We talked to senior police officers who have been closely involved.

Jim Gamble (ex-director of ex-CEOP) : The only side I'm on is the side of MMC.

Pedro do Carmo (directeur-adjoint de la PJ) : We need to know, not only because the family needs to know but very much because we want to know what was done the right way and what should have been done in a different way.

MB : 10 years on we can now reveal details of a secret government report. It lays bare 1'24 the failures of all the agencies involved in the search for Madeleine.

Colin Sutton (ex-DCI de Scotland Yard) : I'm not certain that it was investigated properly at the beginning and I still don't think it's been investigated properly now.

MB : It's 10 years since MMC vanished and I'm still fascinated by the mystery of what happened to her. I've come to Vienna to meet a man who once convinced Madeleine's parents he could find her.

(Exchange of salutes) Danny Krügel also wants to hand over to me something of Madeleine's he needs to give back to her parents. Mr Krügel is a former South African police officer. This is the bizarre gadget he invented. He claimed it linked DNA science with satellite technology. Simply insert a hair sample and it can locate a missing person, alive or dead.

Dany Krügel : I've met Gerry and Kate in Praia da Luz, to assist them. I said I developed this technology, it's early stages yet but I would do my best.

MB : It was 2 months after Madeleine had disappeared and the Mcs were desperate. This is what Kate wrote later in her book : Desperation does strange things to people. We are scientists and we don't believe in hocus pocus or crackpot inventions. Since the investigation appeared to have ground to a halt it was worth trying anything. What else did we have ?

DK : Once Gerry came back with this specific brush and as you can see there's quite a lot of hair samples on the brush. We were looking for Madeleine, I had the first signal at 9 meters from the beach (rather inaudible), I knew she was there, so I did my findings I showed the area to the police and I gave them the map saying this was the area of priority to search.

MB : Police never searched the area Mr Krügel identified. (note 1)

(addressing DK) This is, you've read this, it is Kate's book, she says the police discussed it with the professor who described your machine as pseudo science fiction, this was the professor in Belfast. Logic, it seems, often flies off the window when you're under pressure and desperate for a result, any result.

DK : I know my findings, I know Madeleine was there, must probably still be, I've got nothing to prove for anybody, I've had a lot of successes, I've found a lot of bodies.

MB (reading) : There's one page on the Internet that says Danny Krügel is a visionary real fraudster. Which is it ?

DK : Martin, I think there's one thing in life : the truth will stay and the lie will die.

MB : After 10 years the brush was on its way back to Madeleine's parents. Danny Krügel's involvement in the investigation illustrates some of the early themes of the MMC's story. The oddballs which attached themselves to the case, the desperation of the MCs to cling to anything that might help, the couple's disillusion with the police and the continuing fascination with the fate of a little girl who appears to have vanished into thin air.

MMC was nearly 4 when she disappeared from the family's holiday apartment in Portugal in 2007. Her parents, Kate and Gerry MC, both doctors, had taken her and her younger twin siblings for a week stay. Praia da Luz is a large village on the Algarve coast, an hour's drive from the airport at Faro. It's a quiet resort, popular mainly with British, German and Dutch holiday makers. The MCs had rented apartment number 5A, a ground floor corner property in the Ocean Club complex. The family travelled with 7 friends and their friend's young children.

We asked the former Scotland Yard cold-case expert to go over the investigation with us. Colin Sutton brought two notorious criminals to justice, serial killer Levi Bellfield and Delroy Grant, the so-called night stalker rapist who attacked over a hundred elderly women in their homes.

Let's look at the last few hours, this is the last known photograph of Madeleine, taken around 2:30 in the afternoon, she's sitting by the pool in the holiday complex. Later, at around 8:30, her parents joined their friends for dinner euh... within the complex, at the Tapas restaurant. They'd left the children asleep in one room in the apartment, at the top of this map, Gerald MC once said early on it was akin to sitting in your garden at home on a summer's evening, having dinner with the children asleep upstairs, it wasn't quite like that, was it ?

CS : It's about 80 yards as the crow flies to the Tapas restaurant, there are shrubs there alongside the alley, there's no real way of monitoring that apartment from the Tapas Bar.

MB : According to the MCs and their friends, every half an hour or so somebody from the group was going to check on their own children. Now the MC children were all in the same room which was the front bedroom of the apartment.

CS : The patio doors were left shut but unlocked and then the journey through here to the children's room and Madeleine was in this bed here, the twins and the cots in the middle, the important thing there is that when Kate came up to look, this door which had been left just ajar was wide open.

MB : Yes it was 10 pm when Kate made that final journey back to the apartment, it was her turn to go check on the kids, crucially, and there was no sign of Madeleine.

If you look at the crime scene photo here, which was taken shortly after on that night, you see Madeleine's bed here, you see her pink cuddle car sort of security toy, there you see the cots where the twins had been and then you see the window and the window is important as well because Kate MC said that when she went in, she found the window, which had been shut, was open and a shutter had been raised.

Sky News info's : Just hearing the search is underway for 3 year old British girl who has gone missing in the Algarve area, Portugal.

Journalist Dan Mason : She's named Madeleine or Maddie, though a few police and police dogs have been seen, there doesn't seem to be much activity at the moment.

MB : Let's look at the initial police response in that golden hour. What exactly does the "golden hour" mean ?

CS : It's really the initial opportunities to find intelligence information, look through systems and see what action can be taken to resolve whatever it is as quickly as possible. I mean that things that are done or are not done often can have a very large impact on the way the investigation of the incident proceeds thereafter.

MB : Particularly the collection of forensic evidence ?

CS : I can well understand that the initial officers that responded to it will see as their priority to look for her, to try and find her, and they won't be thinking of forensic evidence, they won't be thinking major crime scene, they'll be thinking "let's find this little girl !".

MB : Local police, the GNR, did respond on the night and by the next morning there was a great deal of police activity.

CS : The GNR, the gendarmerie, they're kind of soldiers effectively who police through parts of Portugal, they are geared up to search for a missing child, but they're not geared up for a high-tech 21st century major crime investigation. It's a question of time, it's a question of how long that goes on and how long somebody has got grip of the situation you know, the supervisor leader who says "do you know what, you know, we've been searching now for 2 hours, we need to go back and make sure we preserve that scene because we could be looking at something much more long-term and much more serious here. We mustn't apply our standards in the UK too strictly to what goes on in other places, they have a different system, they have different police forces doing with different aspects of the law.

PdC : At least during the first moments after the disappearance of Madeleine MC, it was not really a criminal investigation, it was more a rescue operation and it was very much in everyone's mind the family but also the police officers, neighbours, anyone that attended the place and was looking for a child that was missing.

Fernando Pinto Monteiro (then Portuguese Attorney General) :
When the investigation began, hours had already passed, I don't know if seven, eight, and this is enough for evidence to vanish. If she was abducted in those 6/7 hours, they had time to take her to Spain or put her in a plane or in a boat.

MB : It's accepted, not enough was done to collect vital evidence. That didn't happen for weeks. In fact the apartment was let out to others families twice before it was sealed off for a full forensic examination. (note 2)

In the first investigation, the Portuguese took the lead. Back home, Leicestershire Police coordinated the response, but numerous UK agencies became involved once the search for Madeleine escalated into a criminal investigation.

JG : From Leicester Constabulary to CEOP through all the different Police Officers Associations right up to the Home Office and the Home Secretary himself, everyone was wanting to do something and to help. I think that in the chaos that followed, we lost some ground.

MB : The early confusion was detailed in a secret report ordered by the Home Office and we've got a copy of it. It reveals an astonishing catalogue of mistakes, accusations and growing distrust. What do you make of it ?

CS : I think we say in there that the various agencies and parties that were involved in the early parts of the investigation had different priorities and they sometimes competed against each other and I think we will see that they hampered the investigation from the very start.

Note 01

This is inaccurate, Prof Mark Harrison insisted on the fact that all sources had to be examined, though there's no doubt about his personal opinion. Therefore the area identified thanks to the hair machine was duly searched by the (British) dogs and the police (see the PJFiles and the Harrison reports in particular).
 
Note 02

This is not true. One PO of the scientific police started to work on the crime scene at around 1.30 am, after people were asked to leave the flat. All that could be collected in night time was collected until 4:30am. The flat was then sealed off and two GNR guards remained at the scene. More Scientific Police technicians came on the following morning. The flat was returned to the owner on June 11. From that date to the visit of the British dogs, the flat was occupied by 4 families. The dogs’ alerts, which occurred only in that flat, originated other tests.

Continued Part 2..

MB : It's been 10 years since Madeleine MC vanished without a trace from... (reporting) : In the last few minutes we've seen Mr and Mrs McCann been driven away by what we think were police officers. The first Portuguese investigation got off to a poor start and it never recovered. Early on tensions grew between the MCs and those who were trying to help them. Olegário Sousa (Spokesperson for PJ) : Things are not equal in legal system in the UK and in Portugal. It's not my fault, it's not your fault. MB : I've got hold of a secret government report that details the problems that arose from the beginning, not just in the Portuguese investigation, but in the reaction of the British authorities too. The then home secretary Alan Johnson commissioned the scoping report in 2009. It led to the involvement of Scotland Yard.  ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]) AJ : With due respect to the Leicestershire Police the way the Constabulary is working you know...  there's the Metropolitan which is huge and has huge resources and huge expertise and there is the rest. So Gerry and Kate McCann felt that Leicestershire just didn't have the wherewithal to conduct this problem properly. MB : The Home Secretary turned to child protection specialist Jim Gamble to advise him. Was it worth getting Scotland Yard involved ? JG : I suggested that we carried out a scoping review to identify whether there were any investigative opportunities that had been missed and deliver a better investigation. Officials euh.. were set against it I think that's fair to say.. AJ : So much of this had been haphazard in the way it had been investigated, particularly those early Portuguese investigations, that actually MMC deserved a proper police investigation and she hadn't had one up to that stage. MB : The confidential report said that relationships were strained by cultural procedural and legal differences and the UK was accused of acting like a colonial power. JG : That was about resentment.. MB : About the attitude of British ... JG :  The kind of, you know, hierarchical approach, perhaps a condescending approach. MB : It was in that context that the rest of the initial Portuguese investigation played out. In the first week police chased false leads and mistaken sightings, the MCs held numerous impromptu news conferences. GMC (reading) : Words cannot describe.... MB : The search area expanded around the village and beyond. On the 11th day, police formally questioned Robert Murat, apparently on little more than a journalist's warning about his odd behaviour. He was later cleared of all suspicion. They also interrogated his girlfriend, Michaela W and a business associate named Sergei M. Robert M was helping the police as a translator. He's an expat, he was living at the time 150 yards up the street. CS : Historically, people who have kind of inserted themselves into the centre stage of the investigation have been viewed with some suspicion by the police and rightly so, in some cases... MB : The next morning, when he was released, he wouldn't appear on camera, but he told me that he was innocent, he said that he felt he was been made a scapegoat and his real fear was that this was going to ruin his life and of course he was eventually let go with no further action. CS : Yes. MB : As the search of Madeleine went on, her parents put their faith in God, the village church became an almost daily refuge. In Fatima,  Portugal's holiest site, they prayed at the shrine of the Virgin Mary. In Rome they met the Pope, he blessed a photograph of Madeleine. Thousands of supporters tied yellow ribbons to await Madeleine's safe return. While all this was happening, Portuguese detectives were making a crucial error, according to the author (Jim Gamble) of the secret Home Office report : I was shocked first and foremost when the MCs went immediately under the Portuguese system considered suspects. That was the first critical mistake, it was unfair and for the investigators unfair with regard to the integrity of the forensic evidence that would be captured and unfair to the MCs themselves. Clear the ground beneath your feet first and foremost. MB : According to the Home Office report, statistics suggest that in the majority of cases where very young children go missing and are later found dead, the family is involved. In addition to not questioning the MCs as suspects, the report says the UK team felt more could have been done by the Portuguese police to record quicker the details of all employees and there was a lack of confidence that enough work had been done around potential witnesses and suspects. CS : One of the big holes in what went on in the investigation.. In these sorts of cases what you need to do, what you want to do is to snapshot the area. Leicestershire police, had it be the decision at the time, would have had reasonably easy access to all the British people that were either working at the complex or were there on holiday. MB : Not looking properly at staff who were working at the complex, set all the people you need to talk to.. CS : Particularly where you've got people who haven't got roots in the area, don't live nearby, but are there temporarily. MB : It's easy to criticize the original Portuguese investigation, but is it entirely fair ? JG : We looked at how could you compare and contrast what might happen on a sleepy night in Bournemouth if a Portuguese couple had lost a child, so we tried to compare it more like with like, but you know this isn't about being territorial but the Portuguese system didn't come up to the standards that we would expect. It simply didn't. MB : Such criticism of the original Portuguese investigators by their British counterparts still irritates today. PdC : Everyone that was involved in the investigation did their best and was very much committed in doing their job the best way they could. FPM : Everyone did all they could in the investigation. Let me tell you, in the world there are millions and millions of cases that are never solved, it is difficult to solve the abduction of a child or a disappearance. MB : Almost 2 months after Madeleine disappeared, a news report revealed a pact of silence. It said police were suspicious of the parents' involvement. The article in the weekly paper SOL said the MCs and their friends were thought to be hiding something. This was the first public indication of where the early investigation was focused. Portuguese police asked the British authorities to bring over two specialist dogs, ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]) one who detects dead bodies, the other traces of blood. The dogs reacted in the MC apartment and in the family's rental car which wasn't hired until 3 weeks after Madeleine disappeared. Forensic swabs were taken and sent to the UK for analysis ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]). The leaked results or at least the Portuguese interpretation of them caused a sensation. (reportage) : In the car the scientists have also found another, a second full match and police say that is the most damning evidence that's been returned by these forensic test results. The dogs the forensic tests that followed, that was the turning point, wasn't it ? CS : It was the turning point for the arrests, yes, certainly, but we need to remember that the dogs are there to indicate areas where proper forensic tests, evidential tests should be made. Dogs certainly in the UK are not used as evidential things, it's just indication to focus the search for forensic materials. MB : 4 months after their daughter vanished, her parents were questioned and then released. Their formal status, arguido, meant they were suspects. Lawyer (sept 2007) : No charges have been brought against them... MB : A devastating turn of events which did nothing for their poor relationship with the police. It simply got worse. According to the secret Home Office report, the MCs complained of a lack of clarity and communication with the Portuguese police, and they said they were left for hours waiting to speak to someone. They described the situation as inhumane, it led to a long-lasting distinct lack of trust between all parties, the MCs, the Portuguese police and the UK authorities. This criticism is that the Portuguese reject. PdC : It was not a contest, it was not a show, so we weren't really looking for approval from anyone, we just wanted to do our job the best way we could. MB : KMC describes in her book her struggle with the disappearance of her daughter and everything that followed. KMC reading :  On the whole Gerry and I have managed to dig deep and remain focused, although the temptation to shout the truth from the rooftops has always been there. (There have been many times when I have struggled to keep myself together and to understand how such injustices have been allowed to go unchallenged over and over again). I have had to keep saying to myself: I know the truth, we know the truth and God knows the truth. And one day, the truth will out. (note :  between brackets is the part of the original text cut in “Searching of Madeleine”).

Note 03 Martin Brunt mentioned already that “secret” report in 2014. In 2009 Jim Gamble suggested it to the then HO Secretary Alan Johnson. AJ was substituted by Theresa May in May 2010. The report was then ready, but the issue was no priority for TM, hence there was no reason to solicitate Scotland Yard’s help.   . Note 04 This is not true. The idea of bringing the British dogs was Prof. Mark Harrison’s, as his July 23 report reveals. The PJ was then hardly aware of HRD (Human Remains Detection) dogs. Following the NPIA criminal profiler [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], the head of the PJ asked the assistance of the National Policing Improvement Agency expert [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] MBE.      Note 05 It is not less interesting to mention where the dogs didn’t alert. Sent in the two flats occupied by the MCs (one before and the other after the disappearance) and the three flats occupied by the MCs' friends/acquaintances, the dogs only alerted in the flat where MMC had been seen for the last time. ;

Continued Part 3..

MB : I'm Martin Brunt and for the past 10 years I've been reporting on the disappearance of MMC from her holiday apartment in Portugal. Her parents, Kate and Gerry, were questioned by detectives who suspected their daughter had died accidentally and they had disposed of her body. 48 hours later the MCs left Portugal and flex home to Leicestershire with their two younger children. GMC (reading at arrival in Midlands airport) : (inaudible) return to the UK without Madeleine, it doesn't mean we're giving up her search for her. MB : They were still suspects in that first Portuguese investigation, a position that would remain for another ten months. In July 2008, the investigation was closed. The MCs were told there would be no further action taken against them. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]) FPM : It took me a long time to close the case until finally I convinced myself that at the time there was no evidence at all. PdC : In 2008, when it was closed, at this time that didn't mean that the PJ wasn't going to keep looking got information, keep looking for some kind of clue. MB : According to the secret Home Office report, the MCs felt the original Portuguese investigation was inadequate and so they had to take matters into their own hands. The MCs sued the Leicestershire police because they felt they weren't telling them what was being done to find their daughter. The force eventually agreed to give them some information. The MCs had already been using a number of different private investigators. The confidential Home Office report reveals that the private investigators working for the MCs gathered a large amount of information which does not appear to have been shared fully with Portuguese or UK police. The report recommends the MCs are encouraged and persuaded to share this information. The document adds that it's "unusual" for private investigators and police to work together but, because of the "unique nature" of the case, it would be good to do so.  The MC hired their investigators because for the best part of 3 years there was no official inquiry, but that changed in 2011, when Portuguese police decided to review their first investigation. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]) PdC : We thought that after all those years it was time to just go back and look at it and to see if we had missed something. MB : The Home Office report commissioned by Alan Johnson recommended that Scotland Yard get involved and that's what happened. First the Metropolitan Police reviewed the case and then launched their own investigation, Operation Grange, in 2013. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]) AJ : However it was related to the Portuguese, you know, joint operation or whatever it be, SY was now putting an awful lot of resource and expertise into this. Mark Rowley  : This case is unusual, it’s not in Scotland Yard’s remit to investigate crimes across the world normally. In this case, in 2011, the Portuguese and British prime ministers were discussing the case and agreed that Scotland Yard would help. MB : Some detectives greeted it as a challenge, others considered it a poison chalice. (talking to CS) Colin, in 2010, your name was being talked about to head up the Scotland Yard investigation. What happened ? CS : I did receive a call from a very senior Metropolitan police officer who knew me and said that it wouldn't be a good idea for me to head this investigation on the basis that I wouldn't be happy conducting an investigation where I was told where I could go and where I couldn't go, and things I could investigate and things I couldn't. MB : What do you think your caller was getting at ? CS : The Scotland Yard investigation was going to be very narrowly focused and that focus would be away from any suspicion of wrongdoing on the part of the MC and their Tapas friends. MB : Now you're not saying that you were aware of any evidence against them and they had been ruled out by the Portuguese investigation, but why would it have been important for you to have included formally interviewing the MCs and their friends. CS : If you are conducting a reinvestigation, it starts at the very beginning, you get all the accounts, all the evidence, all the initial statements and go through them and make sure they stack up and they compare. MB : Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood led a Scotland Yard team of 29. They examined 40 thousand documents and identified 600 individuals of some interest. The new investigation came after a personal appeal by the MCs to the then Prime Minister, David Cameron. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]) DC (July 2013) : They say that there is new evidence, new leads to follow new things to be done, it was a case that did shock and still shocks the nation. MB : Scotland Yard began its investigation in July 2013. 3 months later detectives used the BBC's Crimewatch show to announce they had made a breakthrough. At the top of the program DCI Andy Redwood explained he was going right back to the start. AR : We analyse and reassess everything, excepting nothing. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]) MB : But we have established that he didn't do that. We found Scotland Yard's original remit statement, it sets out its purpose like this : this will entail a review of the whole of the investigations which have been conducted into the circumstances of Madeleine MC disappearance. So far neutral language, but then it goes on to say it is to examine the case and seek to determine as if the abduction occurred in the UK. It appears that right from the start the British investigators had the same narrow focus that concerned Colin Sutton. They had accepted Madeleine was abducted and so her parents were never questioned formally. MR : The parents' involvement, that was over the time by the recent investigation by the Portuguese that all the material we're happy that's completely dealt with, she wasn't old enough to make a decision, to set off and start her own life. However she left that apartment, she has been abducted ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]) MB : Unlike Scotland Yard, the Portuguese police believe there could be other explanations. (to PdC) Do you accept that she was abducted ? PdC : We don't know what happened and we have to be prepared to deal with different scenarios. MB : A revelation made in BBC's Crimewatch program was about this picture (sketch de Tannerman). For a long time this artist's impression was thought to be vital evidence. The man was seen by one of the MC friends, Jane Tanner, carrying a child at 9:25 pm, 45 minutes before Madeleine was discovered missing. She didn't think anything of it at the time, but later believed she could have witnessed Madeleine's abduction. But Andy Redwood appeared to rule out the sighting all together. AR : A night creche was operating from the main OC reception and 8 families had left 11 children in there and one particular family we spoke to they themselves believed that they could be the Tanner sighting. We're almost certain now that this sighting is not the abductor. MB : So if our mystery man was picking his child up here at the night creche and Jane Tanner sees him walking across the top of this T junction going in that direction, that must mean that he's had to take a long route all the way round here and, if he's going in this direction, why didn't he just simply walk through one of the paths from there. CS : We saw DCI Redwood there say "I'm almost certain that this man from the creche is the man in the sighting", I'm not convinced. MB : Confusingly, despite being ruled out by the police, the drawing is still prominent on the official MC website and is the subject of an appeal for information. Scotland Yard focus then settled on a different suspect and 2 artists' impressions of a man seen carrying a child toward the beach at around 10:00 pm. The Scotland Yard investigation looked broadly at 2 theories, 1) a planned abduction. Witnesses told the police they'd seen a number of men acting suspiciously in the days before. Some of the men claimed to be charity collectors. Authors Anthony Summers and Robin Swan researched the case for their book and highlighted the mystery charity collectors. AS : A man or two men asked if they could have a contribution to an orphanage that they said was in a village nearby called Espiche. I've been to Espiche and it turns out that there is no orphanage there. MB : A second SY theory was a burglary gone wrong, the idea that Madeleine had woken up and disturbed a thief who, instead of fleeing, had attacked her and carried her off. To the public it may sound unlikely, it certainly did to the Portuguese police, but not to their British colleagues. AR :  In my experience, if you try to apply the rational logic of a normal person sat in their front room to what criminals do under pressure, you tend to make mistakes, so it was a sensible hypothesis, it’s still not entirely ruled out, MB : But my sources in Portugal told me the burglary gone wrong theory pursued by SY was never considered seriously by Portuguese detectives. Portuguese and Scotland Yard had different suspects and we tracked down one of them.

Note 06 It would be very interesting to know who summed up the filing order so ambiguously (actually, as the criminal investigation was closed, the status of the 3 arguidos (formal suspects) were lifted ipso facto, the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] being by no way a certificate of innocence) as the High Court stated. The MC lawyer, Dr Rogerio Alves ? Doubtful, but he didn’t refute, at least publicly, the fake news of the MCs having been “cleared" proclaimed in a press release organised by Clarence Mitchell, the MC spin doctor. Whoever reads that filing order sees that the MCs clearly lost the chance of proving their innocence when their friends refused to collaborate in the reconstitution requested by the prosecutor in order to clear dark areas in the group’s statements.      . Note 07 The MCs hired their first private detectives (the Spanish Metodo 3) in September 2007, following their being made informal suspects (arguidos) and although the criminal investigation was on and would last over 10 more months.     Note 08 The MCs sent an open letter, published in The Sun on May 11, 2011, to David Cameron, then Prime Minister, to remind him his pledge to think of MMC and ask for a review of the PJ Files. David Cameron was pressured by Rebekah Brooks who threatened to criticise daily Theresa May on the first page. So he yielded. And that’s how Scotland Yard was asked to make a review of the case, the funding coming from the Home Office.     Note 09 The review of the case (not the investigation) occurred after the MCs sent an open letter to DC (see note 8).     Note 10 Then DCI Redwood was lying here, but what for ? To save SY’s reputation or to cheat the public ?     Note 11 After claiming SY was plainly satisfied with the Portuguese investigation on the topic of the MCs’ exoneration, MR appears to be not as happy as that and needing to use another argument, an age one, as if some 3 years old hadn't been proven capable to make decisions.

Part 04

MB : Ten years on the police seems no nearer to solving the mystery of Madeleine's disappearance. I've been looking at what's gone wrong. A key source of evidence in any modern crime investigation is mobile phone data. In this case, according to the secret Home Office report, there was lots of it, but it was badly handled by Portuguese investigators. The report says "a vast amount of cell site data has been gathered.. There is no evidence to indicate that the data has been fully investigated or analysed.. The Portuguese should be encouraged to accept UK help". (to Colin Sutton) How vital to the original police investigation would that have been a more thorough analysis of the mobile phone data ?` CS : So it could have been very helpful indeed. You know mobile phone traffic analysis is vital to many, many investigations these days. There are 3 reasons for that, you know, if you get the opportunist who forgets to switch the phone off and so you have the data which shows that the criminal was present at the time or whatever. Secondly you've got the criminal who does understand and know about mobile phone data, he simply forgets to turn it off. And thirdly even if they do turn if off, sometimes that itself can be evidential, because if you've got somebody who's using their phone all day every day, not just for calls but for texts as well and suddenly there's a gap when they switched the phone off, the only time when they ever switch the phone off is when the crime happens, there's some evidential value in that too. It's led to some people I think they wanted to speak to. MB : SY had four suspects, they were linked by the use of mobile phones, their backgrounds and their location on the night Madeleine disappeared. The Metropolitan Police asked the Portuguese to invite them and others to be interviewed in 2014. The four were questioned and made arguidos, suspects. José Carlos da Silva was one of them, he was a driver at the holiday complex when Madeleine vanished. He and the others were interrogated by the Portuguese police with questions supplied by SY.   MR : We had some descriptions to work with, and that led to us identifying amongst the 600, a group of people who were worth pursuing, (have they been involved in this activity, have they had a role in Madeleine going missing? Because what the hypothesis was, then) we’ve got some searches, we’ve worked with the Portuguese, they were spoken to, and we pretty much closed off that group of people (in brackets the part of the quote that was eliminated in Searching of Madeleine).   MB : Another of those questioned was a Russian born computer specialist, Serguei Malinka. It was not the first time Mr Malinka had been questioned, he was interrogated soon after Madeleine vanished, but was never made a formal suspect then. He spoke to Sky News 10 years ago.   SM : They confirmed I'm a witness, not a suspect, so basically I'm just going to wait for investigation going on.   MB : The new Portuguese investigation focused on a series of sex attacks on young sleeping children at resorts along the coast. There were 3 here at Albufeira, 2 at Carvoeiro and another at Silves.   AS : In most cases the child involved was 8, 9, 10 years old, but in one case the child was just 3 years old. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   RS : There were some 50 odd files on sexual predators that have been forwarded to the Portuguese police by the British police that the British were not convinced had all been thoroughly investigated. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   MB : A former OC waiter, Euclides Monteiro, was identified by the police as a suspect for the sex attacks and possibly for Madeleine's abduction. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   PdC : We've thought at the time that there were enough reasons for us to believe that this could have been the work of one person and that one person could also have been responsible for Madeleine MC's disappearance.   MB : DNA tests eventually ruled out Mr Monteiro, but even before he'd become a suspect he was dead, killed in a tractor accident in 2009.   (to CS) : What this shows is that we've got two police forces working hundreds of miles apart and pursuing different suspects.   CS : It's difficult for two adjacent UK police forces to have a joint investigation. When you multiply the differences over a language barrier, cultural differences and two different criminal justice systems, then I think you're always going to come up with a tension and then possibly with different results.   MB : What if Madeleine wasn't the victim of a crime ? What if she had simply woken up, wandered off and fallen into a roadwork trench, which was left open that night. Former RAF navigator John Ballinger who lives nearby had alerted the police to the possibility.   JB : The most likely thing if she had been in there was that she fell on the spoil and the whole lot slid down and she was covered by all the soil and things that had been excavated.   MB : Portuguese authorities insisted that all roadwork's had been inspected the next morning before they were filled in. In June 2014, SY checked part of the sewage system nearby. For all theories Madeleine's parents cling to one simple fact : there is no evidence their daughter has come to any harm. It gives them hope that she is still alive.   KMC (BBC) : You have to keep going, especially when you've got other children involved. You know some of our subconscious I think your mind and body just take over to a certain extent. One of our goals is still to find Madeleine and was to ensure that Sean and Amelie have a very normal happy and fulfilling life.   GMC : Before Madeleine, euh was taken, we felt we'd managed to achieve a little perfect nuclear family of five and that was for a short period and then you have a new normality and unfortunately for us the new normality is a family of four.   MB : They are not alone in their hope, children missing for longer than Madeleine have been found and brought home. The campaigner who more than anybody has kept the MCs from complete despair is Ernie Allen. He's the former president of the US National Centre for Missing and Exploited Children and he knows that miracles can happen,   EA : It is realistic to think that MMC is still alive. Somebody knows and if we can find that one person, even 10 years later, who has information they were not willing to share 10 years earlier for whatever reason, and ask them to come forward now, at a minimum we can provide some sense of justice for Gerry and Kate MC.   MB : There is no British equivalent of Ernie Allen's missing child centre, but the Home Office report did recommend one to avoid the confusion and ill feeling that so dogged the first Madeleine investigation.   JG : So in a national centre of that source, you would have officers from different European forces, you would be working with them on the ground training, applying the lessons, building the bridges, so that actually when something happened we were moving as a collective, as opposed to individuals in a team sport.   AJ : Nothing's happened in the ensuing 10 years that suggests that if it happened again there'd be any better, more coordinated response.   MB : Today there is little to remind anybody of the tragedy that happened here. At the village church prayers are said for Madeleine every week, but gone are the photographs, the posters, the appeals for information? There's graffiti, but it's negative.   Paul Luckman : What these people will say "why did they leave their children alone, we don't do that, we take our kids with us to the restaurant", it's not fair but it's the way that it is, people look up to a portion of blame, they're trying to understand, there is nothing, we don't know what happened.   MB : Over the years, Kate and Gerry MC have been the target of extraordinary internet abuse, some of which includes death threats. Recently the picture of the couple and their children eating at a restaurant was shared on social media. It prompted a range of comments suggesting spitting in their food and throwing beer in their faces. The police have never taken action against any of their online attackers.   JG : I hope those people that have said and done things that were cruel and unkind and unnecessary in the absence of evidence reflect on the part they have played, including a legacy of vile on the Internet.   MB : It's difficult to understand the continuing widespread hostility towards the MCs, they've acknowledged they were wrong to leave the children on their own and two police forces have found no evidence that they played any part in their daughter's disappearance. In our investigation we discovered nothing to suggest otherwise. The mystery of what happened to MMC is still just that, a mystery. There's no firm evidence to explain what happened. There's no happy ending, no tragic ending, there's no ending at all. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   To CS : If you were in charge today, what would you be doing, what more could you be doing?   CS : Here and now, where we are now I would be saying "we need to start this again from the beginning and look at absolutely everything, because unless that's done I fear the SY investigation will just peter out and we may never know.   MB : So are you saying that the past six years and 12 million pounds has all been a waste ?   CS : I suppose I am, because we're not really any further forward, we're not any closer now to knowing what happened to Madeleine on that night, and I think we could have been.   MB : The Portuguese and the Metropolitan police both admit their relationship has sometimes been fraught, but they now say they're working closely together.   MR :  I know we have a significant line of enquiry which is worth pursuing, and because it is worth pursuing, it could provide an answer, but until we have gone through it, I won’t know whether we will get there or not. What area is that focus on ?   ??????????????????? we can fish around this, as much as you want. Ourselves and the Portuguese are doing a critical piece of work and we don’t want to spoil it by putting titbits out on it publicly.   PdC : The relationship between the Metropolitan police and the PJ is let's say cooperative. Our two investigations are not dependent on each other, but it is important for us to have the Metropolitan police working side by side with us.   MR : I wish I could say, I so wish I could say that we will solve this.   GMC : My point of view, you know, somebody knows what's happened.   KMC : Whatever it takes for as long as it takes, you know, but there's still hope that we can find Madeleine.   MB : If you would like to explore more of the data… (publicity for Sky News)

Note 12 The public would appreciate sources for such a serious statement.     Note 13 Since when does a victim, instead of complaining by the authorities of the (foreign) country where the crime or misdemeanour was committed, goes back to the UK and lodges a complaint by the UK police ? Since when the UK police that got the complaint sends it to the foreign country police, asking for an inquiry ?     Note 14 It was fast established, and not because the man had died, that Euclides Monteiro never attacked anyone sexually     Note 15 Among many other things, one had to remember the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] that Kate MC refused to answer, when she was made arguido. Though it was her lawyer’s advice (Gerald MC got the same advice but answered) it is extraordinary that a mother wouldn’t answer the questions of the police force in charge of finding her disappeared child, especially because the questions were not tricky ones : In which state was the flat when you got in ? Which objects did you touch?

Gerry and Kate McCann: Full interview transcript

The Telegraph talks to Gerry and Kate McCann as they launch a new campaign on the anniversary of their daughter Madeleine's disappearance.

1st May 2008

Gerry, talking about the launch of a new campaign, said: This is something we've been working behind the scenes. We knew there would be massive media attention and we wanted to capitalise on that.
The documentary is a platform and told a bit of a story about where we're at. We want to bring the focus back completely to what this is about – finding Madeleine.

Kate: There has been that much speculation. I find it upsetting for our family but it's upsetting for Madeline.


Gerry: There so much noise you can't tell the noise from the real messages. Any angle leads to column inches when it doesn't deserve it.

When you think about the last five months how much new information - there's very, very little and we need to focus is back on what people do know and what are the real issues here.

Q: Is this the best hope now of finding Madeleine?

Kate: I'm not sure about that but the media interest will wane without any developments and I guess you've got to use this opportunity. We need that information and we strongly believe that information is out there, somebody knows something.

Dubbing today "May Day for Madeleine", Gerry said: It's the last chance to capture a lot of the information that's gone into the investigation that we're not privy to and clearly we need to know everything that's been done. What we're asking people to do is if you've given information to police, Crimestoppers, Portuguese police, we're asking you to give it to us as well.

We're a year down the line and seemingly no closer to finding Madeleine. We've got little bits of jigsaw but huge gaps.


We have set aside considerable resources on this task and we have processes set up and ready to go but of course we don't know what information has been generated.

I personally don't think running stories on Madeleine makes that much difference. Her image is everywhere.

It's about that key bit of information - someone has it but they might not necessarily put it together.

At this time, a year on, it's to try to jog people's memories. Portugal is a small country, she could have been moved, we've clearly got an international case and we're desperate for information.

There are people who haven't come forward who might have been involved on the periphery.

Q: When the arguido status is lifted will this story go away?

Kate: Being made arguido has not helped the search for Madeleine. I'm sure when the arguido status is lifted it will be a major development and huge headlines.

Q: There is lots and lots of media coverage but has it helped the searched?

Gerry: A lot of people think Madeleine is dead. Today is about us stating our absolute categoric belief that there is no evidence that Madeleine has been seriously harmed.

Q: How do you feel Madeleine?

Kate: It's a sense really, Madeliene is very close, it's kind of a sensation that she's there. You try and be objective and think that it's just because I'm her mum and because I want to believe.

Gerry: The more research we've done and the more we've looked into these types of cases the stronger my belief is now that there's a better chance Madeleine is alive.


The bulk of data is actually based from the US. From the 115-a-year stereotypical kidnappings by strangers 40-50 per cent are killed, which means that the majority are not killed. The younger the child the less likely is that child will be seriously harmed or killed.

Madeleine really is the right low limit. We've not said it's impossible. How many of the children who are never found and assumed to be dead are actually being brought up somewhere else? It's frightening to think of Natasha Kampusch (held for eight years) and Shawn Hornbeck (four years) and other kids...

Kate: The story in Austria shows how people can go off the radar. But they are still there and you owe it to that erson to keep looking.

It still give you hope, it's horrible to think of the length of time and stuff and you think of a year ago. Imagine what it would have been like to get to a year, it would have killed me. A few days at that point were forever but it [Elisabeth being found] gives you hope and it could be today, tomorrow or next week and you've got to keep hold of that hope.

Gerry: It all gives you hope. People want to help. She's a completely innocent child and surely we can find her if everyone pulls together. Whatever anyone thinks of the situation Madeleine is innocent and she's a child.

When we went to Washington and spoke to the people who had the most expertise we came out thinking she is out there.

Gerry: There's a really good chance she is still out there, based on years of experience of missing and abducted children
What Earnie Allen's (national center for missing and exploited children in Washington) exact words were are there are a host of scenarios by which Madeleine could still be out there.

The experts are saying there is a strong chance Madeleine is out there but its back to what we need to do which is address the situation: Who took her? Is that person alone? If they are alone they don't live in isolation, they live in a town, in a holiday resort, they interact with people and they might have accomplices we don't know what motivates them.

They have to shop, they have to buy things. People have got a description of a man. It's trying to find a link somewhere, we feel incredibly passionate about it.

Kate: Even people who are classed as loners are known as the loner down the road.

About Sean and Amelie:


Sean and Amelie talk about her constantly,. They include her in everything. They ask about her. They essentially still play with her and that's really heartening for us. A year down the line, our three-year-old twins still see it as that and if Madeleine walked in the door tomorrow they'd say which one do you want and play with her.

They would shout 'Madeleine's home, lets go and play'. She is still a huge part of their life and ours.

Explaining to them what has happened:


Kate: I've got my journal but we took advice and haev done everything that we thought was best for Sean and Amelie. A psychologist we spoke to said basically be honest. The problem is you haven't got a story to tell and can't fill in the facts.
Gerry: I hope she's back with us before they're of an age when they're on the internet and searching. We will face difficult decisions down the line and we are not forcing information on them.

As they ask the questions, they are being told straight and the situation now is still they know Madeleine is missing. They have some understanding of the concept of being lost and that people are looking for them and they say heartbreaking things to us like they're going to find Madeleine and bring her home.

Kate: They will say things like that because we talk about when Madeleine comes home.

About the new campaign:



Gerry: This is a local call number, no premium. It functions from abroad. My strong understanding is that will be a local call from abroad as well. People can leave information anonymously and we guarantee confidentiality.

Kate: We don't know what has been done and what hasn't been done (in the investigation). As parents not knowing what's being done, it gets to a time when we have to find out ourselves.

Gerry: We need to know and we want to know. The bulk of the information in the inquiry came from the UK. We knew there were thousands of leads that came through Crimestoppers and Leicestershire police.


The bulk of the people in Praia da Luz were British, Irish, Dutch and German. We need to co-operate with the authorities. We're not taking the law into our own hands. There will be jurisdictional issues.

We believe it's an international investigation and our investigation in independent. It's cross border and focused on finding Madeline.

Kate: We don't know what the Portuguese (police know)


Gerry: Who can object to us, a year down the line, diverting resources. It's a year. We're not being given information that people are under supervision - if so we'd be keeping very quiet.

People had a fair crack. We just want as parents to make sure everything possible is being done.

There's been a huge response. We don't know what came into Crimestoppers or Leicestershire. We have not had access and clearly we want access, what's been done and not been done.

Kate: We're not taking over the investigation but we're obviously trying to do something ourselves.

Gerry: We are running an independent investigation and we believe it is an international enquiry and we will direct as much resources as we've got available into following up every lead.

Any information coming in will be scrutinised, graded, followed up and acted on.

Kate and I have been working behind the scenes on this with a few core people to launch today. There has been a considerable degree of planning over several weeks.

We need every call. Every bit of information is important to us. Considerable resources are being directed into this.
We might be overwhelmed.

There might be multiple reasons why people have not come forward. In isolation it might not mean anything but it might when you look at the bigger picture.



Kate: I hope its not a bind for people and they will understand but can you give it again and there might be some key information in there. Maybe it might make this move.

Gerry: We have a right to information and what has been done to our daughter and if we are not given the information we will try and do anything. Anybody who has contacted any authority should contact us.

Q: How do you see her?

Kate: When you picture her it's memories. I don't speculate on what situation she's in. It's memories. I don't have any vision if where she is now.


I just sense her still being there. It's hard to explain really. It's a sensation, a feeling. It is comforting, very comforting, that she's that bit closer.

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BBC News: New Madeleine TV Appeal - 5th June 2007

BBC Crimewatch
Recorded in Praia da Luz: 04 June 2007, Televised: 05 June 2007

Fiona Bruce: (to camera) "It's 33 days since little Madeleine McCann disappeared from Praia da Luz in Portugal. Tonight, in a special appeal, her parents Gerry and Kate plead for your help in the hunt for their daughter."

Gerry McCann: "For the Crimewatch viewers at home I think this would be a good time now to review all the information."

Kate McCann: "These are virtually identical to the pyjamas that Madeleine was wearing when she was taken. As you can see it's a pink top, errm... with gathered short sleeves and it has a picture of Eeyore on the front. Errr, the bottoms are white with a... a floral design and have an Eeyore, errm... on the bottom of the right leg."

Gerry McCann: "Around, errr... the time that Madeleine, errr... was found to be missing, shortly before that, there was a suspect, errr... seen walking away from the apartment, errr... with, errm... probably carrying a child.

"He is approximately 35 years of age, round about 5ft 8, 5ft 9. He had dark hair parted, errr... to one side, he was wearing, errr... dark jacket, errr... slightly longer than a suit jacket, light coloured trousers, which may have been beige or mustard coloured, and dark shoes. Errr... You know it could have been someone innocent, we would certainly be keen that that person comes forward to be eliminated but, you know, we are certainly suspicious of the timing.

"We certainly know that it... it could only take one... one phone call. Errm, someone has a key bit of information and it may be someone close to whoever has Madeleine. It might be the person themselves. They can phone, tell the police where Madeleine is."

Kate McCann: "The majority of people, you know, are really good people and, I think that's been demonstrated by all... all the fantastic support we've had, it's been amazing. Errm, there are a few bad people in the world but also there are a few sad people and I guess I'm hoping that it's someone sad who's just wanted our daughter."

Gerry McCann: "It... it's not too late to hand her over."

Fiona Bruce: (to camera) "It certainly isn't. We so much want to find her, don't we? British police also want anyone who was on holiday at the Ocean Club Resort, Praia da Luz, or the surrounding areas, between the 19th April and the 3rd of May to have a look at their holiday photos and if any members of the public are in the background the police are keen to see them. They have sophisticated equipment which can spot if the same person appears in different photos.

"You can upload your photos to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and if you have any information that will help the McCanns' appeal please call this dedicated British police number on 0800 0961233 or 0207 1580197, if you're calling from abroad. And police would like to stress this appeal is aimed at anyone who hasn't already contacted them. And if you've seen Madeleine you should inform local police immediately, please don't wait until you get home."

[Acknowledgement Nigel Moore of mccannfiles.com]

Gerry McCann Interviewed for BBC World Service - 19th June 2007

[Note: This interview was recorded on 19 June 2007, on Gerry's second trip home to the UK.

The short visit was to attend a 'series of meetings' and to conduct interviews for a campaign manager; 'regarding sustaining the search for Madeleine long term', according to Gerry in his blog of that day.

The release of balloons on the 50th day of Madeleine's disappearance marked the McCanns intention to move their campaign away from personal appearances - such as those seen on their European trips - into 'event driven media exposure'.]

Jenni Murray: It's 50 days since 4-year-old Madeleine McCann disappeared from the holiday villa, in Portugal, rented by her parents. Since then nothing's been heard of the little girl despite a remarkable campaign to keep the case in the public eye. Posters of her have been put up across Europe and North Africa. Her parents, Gerry and Kate, have made visits to European capitals and they've even been to see The Pope. But, so far, nothing. Gerry McCann has just returned to Portugal from a brief trip to Britain to appoint a campaign manager to coordinate their efforts to publicise the case; only the second time he's left Portugal since Madeleine's disappearance. But I spoke to him, while he was here, and asked him what stage the investigations were at now.

Gerry McCann: The actual specifics of what happened and I think the key things here about, errm... who actually has taken Madeleine, errr... why they've taken her and where she is, errr... I don't think we're any the wiser. That's very much why we're having to continue our campaign on an international front to make sure that Madeleine's image and, errr... details of her disappearance are as widely spread as possible.

JM: Are there any leads at all? I mean, is there anything that the police are now following up, for example?

GM: There's a lot of, errr... information still coming into the inquiry and, errm... you know, there's a lot of hard detective work going on. We have to realise that if they were hard leads we wouldn't be telling, errr... the public because, errr... they would be handled in a very quiet, errr... fashion and, errr... investigated. The important thing, at this time, is that we don't have Madeleine and, errr... that's the only, errr... result that'll clearly make Kate and I happy, and the rest of the family.

JM: How do you think Madeleine herself would be coping?

GM: You know, that's somewhere where we, errr... we can't really go because, errm... it's back to speculation and we've absolutely no idea who's taken her and where she is and, errm... you know, what sort of surroundings she's in, so there's just too many in... errr... errr... probabilities there to really consider it.

JM: Is she a tough-minded little girl, though?

GM: I think it might be fair to say that... that she's got a lot of her, errr... mum and dad's characteristics

JM: Mmm... How about the rest of the family; you and... you and Kate especially? I mean, how are you coping really?

GM: Every parent can empathise, errr... with what we're going through, errm... and we've had our fair share of emotions but, errr... you know, we're... we're trying to stay focused and looking forward and very much, errm... putting our energies into helping, errr... the search for Madeleine. That does help us to cope, errm... I think it's very important also to emphasise that we have had, errr... tremendous support, errr... both from our family and close friends, errr... we've had tremendous support from the local community, particularly through the church here, errr... which really lifted us, errr... particularly in those, errr... very few first days where, errm... you know, it... it was not, you know... it was just awful really.

JM: You're talking to me now but how difficult is it to be... to be brave in public; to deal with the... the media; to be in the public eye all the time?

GM: It hasn't been nearly, errm... as intrusive as one might expected it to have been and they have largely respected our privacy, with one or two, quite minor, exceptions. The phase of the campaign now is very different to that which we, errr... have undertaken in the last few weeks with Kate and I, you know, travelling to different areas, errm... either to raise awareness in countries in close proximity to Portugal, such as Spain and Morocco, and also going directly to countries, errr... The Netherlands and Berlin to appeal for information. The campaign really started, errr... within electronic media and, errr... my sister, Phil, took the first campaign-type action, errr... and that was to start a... a chain email, errr... with a poster of Madeleine's image and asked people to distribute it and then we decided to set up a website dedicated to finding Madeleine, the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] So, there's huge amounts of information there and the message that we're sending out... you know, the overriding message, is clearly: 'Madeleine is still missing and, as long as she's missing, we will continue searching for her'.

JM: I've, errm... recently come back from... from southern France. I saw posters in... in several places there, errm... about Madeleine. But what do you... you've obviously been talking to experts on missing children. What do they tell you might have happened to Madeleine that posters such as that, and your... your trips to Morocco, Spain, the other countries, might help to solve?

GM: The general viewpoint from, errm... experts is that raised public awareness is a good thing, when a child is missing, and that's been the main focus of the campaign, errm... Now, you know, we think that that has got a good chance of helping but we know there's no guarantees.

JM: Has the campaign helped you and Kate to cope, in that, at least you feel you're doing something?

GM: It has helped us and it helped us stay positive, errr... perhaps when our, errr... we were feeling very negative. Yes, there's no doubt having a focus and diverting your energy, errr... into the campaign, it certainly does help us but, at the same time, when you don't achieve the... the end goal of getting Madeleine back, it... it's still, you know, very difficult as time goes on. We are determined and, errr... we certainly will not give up and I think, you know, parents would know that; they would do anything to find their child.

JM: You've had help from trauma counsellors. Has... has that actually helped you?

GM: Without a doubt, errr... and I think what, errm... the psychologists, errm... did was give us the tools, errm... to help us cope at the beginning. We could only imagine the worst scenarios and, errm... he helped us to consider other possibilities and that, you know, there's reasonably good possibilities, errr... that Madeleine, errm... has not been seriously harmed and that has helped drive us. We have tremendous hurt that Madeleine is not here and we've had to have, you know, 50 days now, errr... without her and, of course, when you think about Madeleine not being with her family, errr... it's very distressing.

JM: So, for you and... and for Kate, what actually keeps the hope alive? I mean, when... when you're together, can you actually bolster up each other? Is it... or do you simply find that when you're together you feel very depressed about it?

GM: Despite, you know, a huge investigation, there is no evidence, to date, that Madeleine has been, errm... harmed, errr... physically, errm... and that, errr... means that we will always have hope and, errm... the hope is what drives us on in our determination to be reunited with our daughter. So, errr... of course, there are... we have blips and, errr... moments where, errm... we're not quite as positive and that is difficult to deal with but we support each other; we get family support and the huge amount of goodwill.

JM: Are there other international cases you know about which give you hope; where the children were... were eventually found?

GM: There's been a number ofcases, errm... where children have been found, after a long time, errm... that, when you think about these, you know, is a double-edged sword. Errr... You know about the case of the Austrian girl who was found after, I think, eight years, errr... and you think: 'Goodness me,'you never want to be separated, errm... that long and, in fact, every day is too long for us and there's been another case earlier this year where a boy, errr... was found in America after four... four years; well. Errm... So, yes, you know, there are clearly, errr... cases where people are returned.

JM: So, if anyone is listening to this and they... they feel they've got information that could help, what should they do?

GM: Well, there's two ways really, errr... to go about it, errm... all of the police forces in certainly Europe and, errr... North Africa are alerted, errm... to the fact that Madeleine's missing and so they can report information, errr... directly to local, errr... police force and they will act on that and feed it back into Portuguese inquiry.

JM: There's something else that's happening in the campaign today involving balloons. Now, tell me about that.

GM: To mark the 50th day that Madeleine's been missing we have, errr... are going to be releasing 50 balloons, errr... with helium in them. These will be green and yellow to signify the British and, errr... Portuguese colours of hope and on each balloon there'll be a card with Madeleine's image and, errm... the details of the numbers to call if anyone has information and we've had tremendous support. There's going to be at least a hundred locations round the world, from places far afield as Argentina, Philippines, Poland, Slovenia, Romania, errr... South Africa, Ventura in California and, errm... it really is becoming a global campaign.

JM: Gerry McCann, father of Madeleine - who has been missing now for 50 days. You can find more details about the campaign to find her online at bbcworldservice.com/outlook

[Acknowledgement Nigel Moore of mccannfiles.com]

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Paris Match: Exclusive Interview with the McCann - 4th September 2007

PM – The return to England must be very difficult?

KM – Of course it will be very hard to return without Madeleine. We have so many happy memories. I am enormously apprehensive about the return. It's extremely painful not to have her with me, not to play with her. Where is she, where can she be found? I am her mother and wherever she is, I should be there.

GM – There are advantages, however, of returning to England. For the twins, it is better. In an extremely stressful situation, if you are in a location which you know very well, you feel more secure. And we would like to take our twins to where we want them to grow up.

KM – Just one thing – we are not abandoning… We are just going home but we will return often to Portugal.

PM – These past few weeks, have you felt an increase in suspicion [towards you]? The way people look at you, has that changed?

KM – These past four weeks, the media has speculated a great deal. But many people have come to see me to assure me of their support. Others have told me that they are praying for us and advise me 'not to believe what is written in certain newspapers'.

GM – For us, all these rumours make the enquiry more difficult … They are only rumours. There is no proof.

KM – We don't read the press all that much. But my parents are at home and their lives at the moment are hell because of the newspapers.

GM – I think that it is truly worrying that forensic information had been revealed. When witnesses are interviewed, they should not know beforehand what the police have found.

PM – Did you imagine that you would be suspected some day?

GM – We were witnesses and we knew that we were going to be put under the microscope. We have co-operated fully and tried to influence the enquiry in a positive way, bringing in…

KM – In doing that, it was the best way to find Madeleine. We have to try everything, not regret anything. We have to keep pressing onward.

PM – The police must equally have suspected your friends and delved into your backgrounds?

GM – We have replied to all the questions that have been put to us and we will continue to do so, whatever the new information might be. Of course, we shall be completely honest.

KM – We have said everything we know and responded to everything that we have been asked.

GM – I have always known that, in this type of affair, all scenarios were possible. We have lived with this since it started. It is sometimes very difficult, what the media are reporting. For example, one day, somebody suggested that our daughter was dead, without offering any evidence of this. At the same time it has been said that we could be implicated, which is completely false, unbelievably awful.

PM – Have you had any doubts about your friends who were with you at the hotel?

GM – We have already been asked that question. We don't believe that, really we don't. Of course, the police must look at everything objectively. To see what evidence is there to support what possibility. It's the same thing in medicine. People come to see me because they have chest pain; I need to know why. I ask lots of questions, I examine them, and then I arrange tests for them in order to tell them finally what's wrong. Police procedure is the same. It's a building up of hypotheses. You gather together the information which helps you to decide which one is best, and what work you are going to do to confirm it. And sometimes you are going to take a hypothesis as far as you can but you realise that it doesn't work and you need to step back again.

PM – Media pressure was immediately very noticeable.

GM – Yes, from the first day, it was massive. Journalists came from all over the world. I believe we did not have a choice, we had to make a decision immediately. You communicate or you go and hide yourselves away. And if we had hidden ourselves, I am sure there would have been just as much of a row. People would have thought: 'Why are they hiding away?'. We chose to communicate to push people into searching for Madeleine. It’s the culture we have in the United Kingdom.

PM – How did you meet each other?

GM – (making a joke of it) I saw Kate on the other side of a river and I crossed it. We didn't meet in the street, but at work. She saw to it that I pursued her. I had to woo her for a long time. You don't know my romantic side.

KM – We met in Glasgow during our studies. Afterwards, we were in the same hospital but we were doing different jobs.

GM – At the time, I was working as a resident. Today, I am a cardiologist. We were both in our first year. Kate specialised, especially in obstetrics.

KM – And afterwards in anaesthesia before doing general medicine.

GM – We then worked together, both of us, in New Zealand and it was only at that point that we were going out with each other. In 1998, we were married. Madeleine was born in 2003, following IVF treatment.

PM – Would you like to talk about that ?

GM – Yes. It was unbelievably special, Madeleine's birth, for we had been trying for a long time. People were thinking that we were getting old and that maybe we could no longer have our own children. Madeleine is almost the perfect child. I know that all parents think this but Madeleine really was just that.

PM – You seem very close. This time of trial, has it brought you closer?

KM – To each other , do you mean? We have always had a strong relationship. If we come through this difficult time, I think that we will be able to get through anything. We have always communicated a lot, and very well, spoken a lot, I think that helps. And obviously, since the disappearance of Madeleine, we have done this more than we usually would, to support each other.

GM – We have already gone through traumatic experiences along the way, but nothing, nothing that could be compared to this.

KM – The pregnancy with the twins was also very complicated.

GM – That pales into insignificance now, but I am sure that this is helping us now, and keeping us strong. At one point, we thought we were going to lose the twins very early, it was very hard. You draw upon all your strength in all of that.

PM – How did that week's holiday go, for the five of you?

KM – We had a great week. We came with a group of friends who also had children. Ours had more little friends . There was that childrens' club with lots of activities. They had great fun.

GM – Madeleine, in particular, enjoyed herself a lot. One day, she even went sailing with the club.

KM – She played tennis.

GM – In the evening, the adults stayed together and the children played on their side.

PM – How was Madeleine during the holidays?

KM – She is very intelligent, very sociable and engaging. She loves to chatter, she is funny, she has a lot of energy.

GM – She is always very active, she loves to organise everything, she is very good at role-playing games. In the hotel creche, she liked to organise things. For her age, her vocabulary is very good, better than mine! She understands lots of things, she picks things up quickly, she is very insightful.

PM – What have you said to the twins for the past four months?

KM – We haven't had to say much. They are so young that they have no notion of time. They know that she is not there but they haven't asked many questions.

GM – The psychologist told us that we mustn't say very much to them. We were afraid to say anything which could make problems for them later. The psychologist explained to us that they must not be told things which are not correct, like telling them for example that she was at the house of her grandmother Glanis. They know she is not there. We are waiting for them to ask where she is but the question has not yet been asked. They are not affected by her absence. They are only 2 and a half years old. How could they understand that someone could take away a child for malicious reasons? However, they have spoken about her recently.

KM – Maybe because they're growing. They express themselves better. When they see Madeleine's cat, they say 'Maddie'. When they see her bag, as well.

GM – Sometimes, they say: 'We love Madeleine', and we reply 'We love Madeleine'. At the worst, when they get round to asking where she is, we will say that she has disappeared or that she has been lost. It is the idea that we have to put to them. We will do it when they are ready. For example, when they see Madeleine on the television, they don’t understand. Besides, we don’t switch on any more.

PM - How do you speak between yourselves about the disappearance of Maddie?

GM - We speak to each other a great deal, Kate and I. It is very rare that we are both 'down' at the same time. One supports the other. As time passes, we don't see things the same way, we don't feel the same emotions. To begin with, there was nothing but pain, terrible thoughts. We still have them but less than before. Hope does not go away. Look at Austria, Natascha Kampusch has been found after eight years. Today we think that if Maddie had been taken or killed quickly, there would have been evidence [of this]. And it is there that we think about the importance of the first few minutes, at the borders, at the ports, at the airports. It only needs an hour and a half by car to reach Spain.

KM - We have thought that a paedophile had taken her and done dreadful things to her. That is very difficult. But, little by little, we have thought of other possibilities, not so awful.

GM – The psychologist helped us a lot in the first few days, because the worst hypotheses were the ones that came to mind. I asked him if we should prepare ourselves [in case] Madeleine was dead. He told us that, not knowing what had happened, we would have to deal with it when it comes. He asked us to imagine 'somebody arriving with Madeleine in their arms'. It was too difficult for us, at that stage, to visualise. And the psychologist said 'Is such a thing possible? Think what you would feel if it happened.' It was a way to challenge us, to show us that we were being negative. He wanted to help us think positively. We realised very quickly that only thinking about the worst case possibilities prevented us from functioning on a normal level. When you are overwhelmed with pain, you can do nothing. We realised that if we were in that emotional state, we could change nothing. When we decided to think more positively and to take action to influence events, in spreading out the search as widely as possible, it was better. From that moment on, we set ourselves targets. The only thing that matters is to find Madeleine again.

PM – Did you notice anything strange during your stay in the hotel ?

GM – Absolutely not, we had a very relaxing week. We were in a group of friends, we did plenty of things together, and at such times we don't pay attention to what is happening around us. We didn't see anything suspicious that week.

PM – Do you feel any guilt for having left your children alone on the evening of 3rd May?

KM – Of course we feel ourselves to blame for being at the restaurant when she disappeared. That will always be there, but the person who broke in and who took Madeleine is the most blameworthy, I think.

GM – We have no doubt, she was targeted.

KM – If we'd had to ask ourselves 'Are they safe?', we would never have left them. We never thought there was a risk. We thought we were being trustworthy and responsible. I did not think of the possibility of anybody breaking in. You never expect someone to come into where you are staying and take your child from her bed. The only reason for our comings and goings, it was in case they woke up.

PM – Have you gone back inside Madeleine's bedroom?

GM – Yes, I had to go back to get some clothes. I was able to pack our bags when the police allowed us to come and look for them. We have passed by that apartment every day for four months. It is not the fault of the apartment, or the Portuguese, or Portugal, they did not take her. It is the fault of the person who carried her away, but we do not know who took her.

Important note:  This interview given on 14th August 2007 was only six days before Pamela Fenn gave her witness statement to the PJ on 20th August 2007.  This is the first time the Moyes had been heard.

Search for Maddie BBC - Stoke and Staffordshire

14 August 2007 - Susan Moyes owns an apartment two floors above the one the McCanns stayed in.

Transcript

By Nigel Moore

Question: This is a story you've followed incredibly closely because you were involved on the night; you helped the police and the family in looking for Madeleine, didn't you?

Susan Moyes: Yes, we did and, yes, very, very concerned... concerned for the family and followed it, every day... every day.

Q: Can you take us back to that night and... and what you were doing and when you first heard there was a problem?

SM: Sure. We went out for a meal about 7 o'clock, down in the town, we walked back about 9 o'clock, round past, errm... the... the church, round past the supermarket, back to the apartment, went out on the balcony about quarter past nine - everywhere was peaceful, everywhere was lovely - we then went to bed.

We were woken up at half past eleven at night by one of the friends of the McCanns to say 'a little girl' had 'been abducted'; those... those were the words used. So, we got dressed and joined in the search, we were out until about four in the morning with, oooh… about, I don't know, thirty people... thirty other people, maybe. The Mark Warner team were out, errm... and other guests at the Ocean Club.

Q: Now, to... to put it into perspective, we've all seen the pictures of the apartment where the McCanns were staying. How close is yours to theirs?

SM: Directly above, errm... we are but one above. Mrs Fenn, that lives there, was in the apartment below us and then below that was the McCanns, so directly above.

Q: And, errr... you were out there for a considerable... a considerable period of time?

SM: Yeah, we went out on the Wednesday; the day before sh..., errr... Madeleine went missing and we were out for the month of May.

Q: Tell me about the affect all of this has had on the... the local community there.

SM: It was, errr... unbelievable really. Apart from the disruption from the mass media, the helicopter - constantly circling round - and sheer disbelief really, everybody was completely, errm... well, amazed by it. Gobsmacked, really.

Q: What... I mean, what were the local community saying to you because obviously being out there such a time, you must have spoken to a lot of people about it? It must have been, if you like, the talk of the town.

SM: Mmm... There was a lot of criticism of the police, which... which we felt was unfounded, errm... at that time. And... really, a lot of... unsure about exactly what happened. How did somebody get in? Was it the front? Was it the back? Was it left open? Was it forced? A lot of different stories...

Q: Speculation, if you like...

SM: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

Q: And... we've got a copy of the newspaper here - in fact it's one of today's newspapers - The Express and... and it's still front page news, of course. Back in the news, there...

SM: Big... big style, yeah, yeah.

Q: How do you feel when you see the pictures here in the newspapers? I mean, have you... have you collected newspapers over the period?

SM: Oh yeah, I get the paper every day anyway but obviously followed it very closely and I just… disbelief, no way... no way do I feel they were any way involved in it. Not at all, no.

Q: How do you feel they… they've been treated?

SM: I think, errm... initially it was very supportive. Personally, I think probably if they'd left the Algarve maybe a month ago, errm... it... it would have been treated more favourably, I think.

Q: It's difficult to know how... how to handle that kind of situation, from their point of view though, I suppose, isn't it?

SM: Beggar's belief... it beggar's belief, yeah, you just don't want to be in that situation, errm... but, yeah, I can't understand this, errr... the turn of... of people's attitudes towards them, some being really quite nasty, unfounded and... and wrong, I think.

Q: Have the newspapers got it right in terms of... of where they were that evening, I mean, the distance from the... the restaurant to the apartment and what have you?

SM: Well, yeah, as the crow flies, errm... they're probably about right with the 50 yards but, in actual fact, you do have to... it's walled off, in a walled area - about six foot of wall - so you have to actually have to go through a little, errm... entrance building, out onto the road and then round to their apartment.

Q: And line of sight, is there any?

SM: Difficult... they wouldn't have had vision of the whole of their, errm... errr... balcony, they would only have had the top of it from... from where they were sitting, because of the wall and because of the flowers on top of the wall.

Q: How do you feel about the... the criticism of the McCann family for leaving the children?

SM: Harsh... very, very harsh. Hand on heart, we've all done something like that, I think, and errm... no, it's... it's just unfortunate. Just a sad, unfortunate accident.

Q: And how do you feel having been, if you like, errm... being swept along with all of this, having been part of this story from the start, being there, at that time when it all happened, I mean, I suspect as a family you must have talked about this over the dinner table for... for weeks and weeks and weeks?

SM: Yes... yes, we have, we have, errm... and I just can't get my head round it at all. I can't... I can't understand it and I don't... I don't know if it'll ever be resolved, really.

Q: You're off back to... to Portugal soon, I gather, and errm... how do you think Praia da Luz will be when you get back?

SM: Yeah, we go back in a couple of weeks, errm... and my husband has actually said for the first time he's going to feel very differently about it, errm... I... I... no, I'm fine about, I'm fine about it, errm... but, yeah, it’s a shame, it's kind of tainted what is a lovely... lovely spot.

Gerry McCann Radio 4 Interview - 29th September 2018

Many thanks to CMoMM member Jonal for transcript

BBC Radio 4
Saturday 29 September 2018, 2.30pm

Pearl: Two Fathers, Two Daughters

POEM (“Pearl” translated and dramatised by Simon Armitage):

 Beautiful pearl that would please a prince,
 fit to be mounted in finest gold,
 I say for certain that in all the East
 her precious equal I have never found.
 So radiant and round, however revealed,
 so small, her skin so very smooth,
 of all the gems I judged and prized
 I set her apart, unparalleled.

 But I lost my pearl in a garden of herbs;
 she slipped from me through grass to ground,
 and I mourn now, with a broken heart,
 for that priceless pearl without a spot.


GERRY McCANN:  Kate was very keen that she get called Madeleine. And er, I would have shortened it, I'm sure I would've. Certainly where I grew up in Glasgow and with our family we shortened all of our names but er, and really early on if someone called her Maddie or Madds or something, then she would say: "No, my name is Madeleine!"


[poem omitted]


The relationship I had with Madeleine was incredibly special. I would say that between myself, Kate and Madeleine it was like an equilateral triangle.

Yeah, when Madeleine was very young she had really bad colic. After she fed, within thirty minutes she would get a lot of discomfort. And, we almost ran a shift system in terms of getting through it. When she had colic I used to put her
on my chest and rub her back and er, one of the things she used to do was pull the hairs on my chest? Really tightly. Which is quite painful! And er, it seemed to ease her burden a little bit. I felt (laughs) I was taking some of-some of it and I suppose all that contact time and skin-to-skin type contact, I did feel I formed a really strong bond with her at a very young age.

The following year er, before she was even one, we went to Amsterdam. For a year,
which was for my work. And, I was then working pretty much eight till six, Monday to Friday and I didn't have any on-call and I didn't have any weekend duties, so I had an awful lot of quality time with Madeleine when it was just the three of us er, and that was a really special time you can't get back when children are really young.


[poem extract]


She's absolutely amazing (sighs) Um, I-I do think back about this, a lot. You know, all parents think, that theirs child is- are amazing. And most children are amazing. But, some of the stuff that er, I was able to do with Madeleine - the conversations she could have, her character, personality... It's really... fantastic.

After, you know, the twins were conceived in-in Amsterdam and they were born, and er, so we used to get the twins down, especially on a Saturday night, and then
Madeleine and I would sit down in our little snug and, there was two programmes in particular and it was like 'our hour' and one of them was David Tennant had started in Doctor Who, and it might say she was three, and it might seem, Oh god, you can't have a three-year-old watching Doctor Who, but she really loved it. Really loved it.

And er, I would often do the bedtime, with Madeleine in particular I'd start reading a story and lying down on her bed with her and she had these little stars er, that would glow in the night, above her bed. That was OUR time. Really our time.


[poem omitted]


And she loved- y'know, I like my sport, and er, she really loved running round the garden, and playing games and... being chased, and laughing. These are the-the things I really remember. And swimming. She loved swimming. That-that's whuh, so that's the other thing that was-was pretty unique about- you'd take her along to... the swimmin- the local leisure centre, to swimming pool, and she would just march out there, right round the-the pool to her instructor with her cap on, goggles, smiling. No anxiety, fear about it. She was in there.


[poem omitted]


I can't remember how it arose, between friends Dave and Fiona, and Matt, and Russ and Jane about about the idea of going to Praia da Luz.

We went, uh, it was last week in April, and the weather wasn't that good, and it was really windy, and the pool - the big outdoor pool - wasn't heated and, we'd been up early so I-I remember feeling tired, 'cause we'd travelled, and... so I remember I'm getting there and she just said: "Let's go swimming, let's go swimming!"

Madeleine was dragging Kate, and she took her into this pool. And Madeleine lasted quite a bit longer than Kate, 'cause Kate doesn't have much insulation. But she was straight in. That's us just arrived, she saw the pool and she was like: "Swimming!"


[poem omitted]


That actual evening, on the Thursday when we went out. (sighs) It was really when Kate came... r-running back from the apartment screaming. On the night. That was the first... thing that... raised any (well!) it w- it wasn't just raising alarm bells at that point, I mean it was all-out... And I just, it was... complete shock.

And Kate was screaming, "Madeleine's missing, she's gone", and I was like: "She can't be gone". And running in. I was like looking in the bedroom, she wasn't there, and then checking everywhere in the apartment in- even in places I knew she couldn't be, under kitchen sink, in cupboards and- (sigh) and it was disbelief. When she said Madeleine's missing. Disbelief, shock, horror. And then panic, and-and terror. 'Cause I could only think of one scenario. At that time.


[poem omitted]


Yeah. (sighs) So, I haven't thought about... those... moments for a long time.
Those specific moments, because you can imagine it's pretty... painful.
I don't know if-if almost automation kicked in, where, it was like, "Okay, search".

Dave, Russell I think, went outside, round the apartment. So we started searching, more widely, really quickly and then very quickly (sigh) raised the alarm. (sigh) I mean, you're in this quiet little holiday resort - that seemed idyllic - out of season, and I certainly didn't speak Portuguese so I know I asked Matt to-to go to the reception and ask them to call the police. And I was sure she had been abducted.


[poem omitted]


You know... (sighs) I think... I remember just being in... the bedroom, distraught. The two of us, just completely distraught. It was almost feral, the reaction, and the pain. Feeling... helpless, alone. Alone together, but er, it was just... the most painful... realisation. And I couldn't get the darkest thoughts... out of our minds, that, you know, somebody had taken her and abused her. And it felt that every moment that we couldn't find her, you know, was worse.

And... I remember being slumped, (sigh) on the floor, and starting to call. Some of my family members. And um, just saying: "Pray for her". Because I thought that was the only thing that might help at that point.

See, I've been brought up Catholic, and um, wasn't particularly religious (laugh) but that was my (laugh) reaction. And, at that point I certainly wanted to believe there was a God and hope that... it would help.


[poem omitted]


I honestly, if it is- that bit for me IS blurred, I can't-can't really remember in-in the order now about, the police seemed to take forever to arrive.

So I think it was probably (sigh) in those... hours... after they come and taken some st- brief statements and, and then just kind of left us. And, we were alone, we were still in the apartments, and-and then we just felt... terrible. And I know then we-we went... to another apartment. Er, by which time it was (sigh) er, three or four in the morning, and Kate was saying, "I want to go back out and search", and... I said, "Just wait until it gets light". And Kate was, kept saying, "It's so cold".

There was an overwhelming feeling of helplessness, that we couldn't do anything. That was the- and I think that 'experience' that we were feeling, right at the centre of it, was like um, a ripple or a tidal wave going out and crashing into all of our family and friends as they heard what had happened.


[poem omitted]


I mean, that first night was, I-I felt like it lasted forever. Um, obviously didn't sleep (tut) and... went out (sigh) again (sigh) first thing as soon as it was light, Kate and I went back out, walking round the streets of Praia da Luz shouting Madeleine's name and dogs barking, and it's deserted. And, when we came back, we came back sort of between eight and nine the police arrived and then, told us they wanted to take us to Portimao for formal statements. And then, the whole day was spent in the police station.

I mean, I know that at the time it felt like to us nothing was happening, and I was... devastated. I was expecting a Metropolitan-type response. I remember asking the police when they arrived to get a helicopter with seek- heat-seeking equipment. And they thought that somebody could be across the border into borderless Europe, driving her. Or Africa. The ports a couple of hours away. I remember thinking that, get the borders closed. It just felt like there should be roadblocks or something happening.

When we came back, it was dark again, and then I was just absolutely amazed when we drove back into Praia da Luz that there was hundreds of media, there. I don't think I knew anyone had contacted media at that point. My first reaction was
(huh) you know, any privacy we (huh!) was out the window, I remember that. Thinking that. We got drove up to the apartment having seen abuses of people in horrible circumstances over many, many times. And, when we went into the apartment there was someone from the consulate there. And then suddenly I thought, "We could appeal". (Hm!) maybe someone could come forward. And, there was no-one really in control. No-one giving advice. And I just scribbled
whatever I said, down. And um, we went down and, just there was lights and cameras and loads and loads of journalists. And I suppose I felt like I was doing something that could be positive.


[poem omitted]


It's like the sickest you've ever been. It's like: couldn't eat, you could almost not drink. I mean, it's the worst of the-the adrenaline, fear, anxiety that manifests itself in, you know, quite dramatic physical symptoms. I know lots of people have said it, "I can't imagine what your loss is like", but everyone HAS felt that panic, in a supermarket, or a shop, or a sporting event where you lose contact for seconds. So people KNOW what THAT'S like. Every parent has FELT that, and they know. I mean, you put it in a situation and, it was magnified, but that in terms of... surviving...

After I did- went out and did the appeal, asking for information and people to come forward, we come in back up to the apartment and... a counsellor had arrived, Alan. He'd said, you know, "I'm there". And at the time I just didn't think I'd be the sort of person that would... need counselling. Or respond to it. And he was great, and just said, "Well, I'm here, you can call me, any time".

And then when we did finally go to bed, in the dark, and we couldn't sleep. I could just hear the wind howling. It was really windy that whole week, but the wind (laugh) that particular night was howling round the apartments. Shutters rattling, and...


[poem omitted]


And we were getting (short sigh) more and more distraught. I think, I can't remember some time between four and five, one of us said let-let's phone Alan. And he came round to the apartment. He started talking, to us and-and it was interesting 'cause h-he started off asking just about our normal life, our week at home and what it was like and imagine the feelings we had and how - I mean, this has been misconstrued many times, but Kate had said you know, "I'd let her down, I let her down, I wasn't there for her" and that feeling of guilt that-that we both had and that we had somehow let this happen, or gave someone an opportunity, is the way I can perceive it now but at the time it was guilt - that we were partly responsible for allowing someone to steal our daughter.

And erm, after listening to us, Alan just said: "You sound like (laughs) model parents". And er, I suppose at the time... that was something we probably really needed to hear.

[sound of breathing]


[poem omitted]


We were paddling furiously under the water just to keep our nose above the surface. I was so close to drowning. That's what it felt like.

Lack of information about what was happening, that was the hard- I think, in medicine and I think every walk of life, the worst thing for anyone is not knowing what's happening, and lack of information, and that was- that was almost paralysing.

without a doubt the family's support's incredibly important. At times we were just crumbling. I'd just go into the bedroom and lie down and cry. And that happened for a very long time afterwards or got triggered by something: a song an emotion, a- And sometimes letting that emotional release happen was important.

But, you know, how we responded I think was very different after the first 36 or 48 hours whatever it was. Almost like a switch clicked for me? It took Kate much, much longer to get into that mode.

It's quite hard to describe because it-it was, it felt transformative and we had gone down to the church quite a bit. I suppose now you know, I was- we probably call it mindfulness, I was just 'no distraction' and I was thinking, and I had the closest thing (laugh) I'm sure that I've ever had to a vision but I-I felt like we were in a tunnel and it was really dark, and that's what it felt like. But on this particular day, I could just see that the tunnel had a- an ending, and there was light, and then the light was getting bigger and brighter, and that to me was like a symbol that we could do things that would make our-our goal, of finding Madeleine more achievable.


[poem omitted]


We had a tremendous amount of support from the community, and... I-I did pray a lot, especially in the first months.

The church is shared between the Catholics and the Church of England and um, I can't remember who gave her the key but, I think one of the-the key moments was I think the first Sunday mass was Mothering Sunday that we went to? And we were down the front, and every woman in the-the congregation came up, and held our hands and said: "Strength - esperança". And that... made me feel stronger. Having that level of support.


[poem omitted]


My (huh) spirituality has waxed and waned throughout my whole life? But I suppose... has always been there to some extent in the background? And Kate and I are both Catholic.

We had a-a quite earnest discussion about whether or not we would bring Madeleine up Catholic, although I-I was not as you might say devout, certainly far from it, but, we made a decision that it- we felt it's a really good... principles to guide our own lives and um, that we thought it would be a good thing to do, so we made a conscious decision, so we b- we became a bit more involved in the church again.

We chose to have her baptised there in Liverpool.


[poem omitted]


(sigh) I think that's back to what I was really saying, though: mine's has always waxed and waned. I say Kate's hasn't but mine's has and, yeah, I've found it harder with all those millions and millions of prayers to accept that that's had an influence. Or hasn't had a better outcome, with so many people praying, and I find that very difficult to accept.


[poem omitted]


Very early on... you know, we were saying, "Were not leaving without Madeleine". And that's what it felt like. We had pre-school kids, and that was certainly how I felt in the first month or two. But it became very, very apparent to me from the end of July through August that... us staying in Portugal was actually making the situation worse. And it was being counterproductive whether we liked it or not. It certainly felt like to me that... the problem just had to go away. And that er, Portugal's reputation was being damaged, and being kept informed of progress was really what we wanted.

We'd stayed to stay close to where Madeleine was, but once... this kind of spotlight had turned on us, I said to Kate, in August, we needed to leave.

So it felt like we were ripped (sigh) um, but at that point it was clearly, after we were made arguido, it was impossible and unbearable. And you know, we did, of course ask for permission, to leave, but that whole journey to the airport is just, like something out of a horror movie. Like, we were- the whole thing was like a nightmare but it was- it was the worst bit where, everything turns, just...


[poem omitted]


I mean, Madeleine's room's pretty much as it was. There's um, a wardrobe full of presents. Christmas and birthdates and other special occasions. But it's- the decoration's the same. And, bedding. And the stars are still up there, the last time I was in. So it's pretty much the same.

And for a long time we couldn't let people in her room. Almost felt like it was defiling Madeleine, that Madeleine's memory. The thought of even selling our house and thinking that people would see Madeleine's room, is not very appealing.


[poem omitted]


Yeah, that first month or two was really um, was busy. And obviously that- it was fairly quick, it was about ten days where they obviously announced there weren't going to be any charges but, by that point I'd completely lost any faith in the Portuguese police and, it was, to me there was an orchestrated media campaign that was trying to make us look guilty. And then the British press were worse by just picking it up and splashing- often things that were buried in small print of a newspaper and splashing it as front page headlines.

Yeah, the-the whole of that first fifteen months just felt like one acute severe episode of grief and loss and pain, and compounded and pain by things reported as fact that was nothing more than speculation or lies. That had a huge impact on us, and I think the hardest bit was e-each of us was struggling so much that it was actually hard to support each other.

Thankfully, the days where both of us were having a really bad day were infrequent. So, supporting each other and having a common goal. And I think for us that enormous amount of family and friend support that we had that- it just enabled us to function. And we got a huge amount of support from ordinary people. But it was touch and go. There were periods where you just felt that you were going under. And it was often late at night, when you are tired, and of course your sleep gets disturbed but- and getting through the nights was the hardest. If a thing that kept us- really for us, the twins.

Having two other children, trying to make sure that they had enough love and attention that they deserved, individually in their own rights, was incredibly important, and thank God. And I-I don't know what it would be like if- I mean, Madeleine the special bond with-with me and with Kate and our first child and how hard we tried to have children... but it would have been even worse if she had been our only child, because we needed the two young people who are part of us, who needed that support


[poem omitted]


There's never a day goes by where I-I don't think about Madeleine and the situation, and what might have happened. That now – and we're eleven years down the line, but - over the course and particularly since the Metropolitan Police started investigating, six-and-a-half years ago, or nearly seven, we've had a new normality: that our day-to-day life is a family of four and not a family of five. And although Madeleine will always be part of it, you adapt to - it's terrible to say, and it sounds cold - but you can't live the way we lived (laughs) for fifteen months. You can't. You-you get drained, and exhausted. (sighs) You've crutches. Whether it be people, distraction. You cannot live like that. You can't live for that emotion on a day-to-day basis. It completely drains you.


[poem omitted]


Often, you know, clearly my memories - and happy memories - are of a girl who was almost four. But, you look at Amelie and how she's developed, and you can't help but think, what would she look like? And, anniversaries are obviously really difficult, and birthdays in particular. But also seeing Sean and Amelie go through all the stages that I imagine Madeleine would and that I'd be seeing her and part of it, and when we were running around the garden and seeing her swimming and seeing how good Sean and Amelie are at these things. I do often think, what it would be like with Madeleine there.

And, thank God Sean and Amelie have had each other, but what they have missed out having such a lovely big sister is very painful. And, I've not done it for a while but watching the home videos that we have with them, the three of them together.

And I've got photographs up all round the house. That hasn't changed, of the three of them, but yeah, the first day when she should have gone to school. That autumn. But seeing your twins who are twenty-one months younger than Madeleine going to secondary school and er, you- you know, doing science and French, and you can't help but think, that's what Madeleine should be doing.


[poem omitted]


I have dreamt about her (sighs) um, including you know, in-in the last few months, but it- it's-it's not frequent. They're painful when they happen.


[poem omitted]


I thought about it a lot early on, and... what I was absolutely confident about is... whatever had happened, Madeleine was still alive, and is still alive, but we could cope. And she would be be in the right place.

That's how I felt about it. And I think, and I have thought about it recently and I just want to hug her, and hold her, and cry. A lot. And I would just deal with that situation as it arose.

I have thought at various points, yeah, what it would mean just stepping back from everything else.


[poem omitted]


I think that's the-the thing that I've seen over and over again. You adapt to your situation, and I think it's human nature. And the amount of people who have said to us, "I don't know how you've coped" and "I know I wouldn't have coped", but actually you see it all the time when people are fighting illness, or deaths of parents or children or other incredible tragedies, come through over and over. We're incredibly resilient, for the most part. And people help you. And time... makes the pain ease.

The grief and the loss and the pain, some of the pain we have is not known, but I certainly don't wish her dead. And it's not a trade-off at any point.

I certainly did believe in Heaven. Right now? (laughs) But, I do almost think that, again it's almost like an instinctive reaction. I feel... and it's just a feeling - I feel we will be reunited. At some point.

[sniffling]


[poem omitted]


END

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Searching for Madeleine transcript

A dispatches Special - Channel 4:  18th October 2007

JS = Juliet Stevenson (Narrator)

CS = Chris Stevenson (former Detective Chief Superintendent, Cambridgeshire Police)
DB = David Barclay (Former Head of Physical Evidence UK National Crime and Operations Faculty)
DC = David Canter (Director, Centre for Investigative Psychology, University of Liverpool)
GL = Gary Ligg (Former Senior Search Adviser, West Yorkshire Police)
MT = Matt Tapp (Police Media Adviser)

CP = Charlotte Pennington (Mark Warner Nanny)
DH = David Hughes
GE = Guilhermino da Encarnação (Chief investigating officer)
GM = Gerry McCann (father of Madeleine)
KG = Voice of Kate Garraway (presenter - GMTV)
KM = Kate McCann (mother of Madeleine)
LP = Len Port (local journalist)
JR = Voice of Jill Renwick (family friend)
JN = Journalist (unknown)
JW = June Wright (Luz resident)
MK = Matt King (Luz Resident)
OS = Olegário de Sousa (Spokesperson for the PJ)
TV = voice-over on television

Red writing indicates text that appeared on screen.

 

PART ONE

JS: On May 3rd, 2007, 3 year old Madeleine McCann went missing.

 

GM: Please, if you have Madeleine, let her come home...

 

JS: 168 days later, that is the only undisputable fact about this extraordinary case.

 

OS: I have no facts to sustain whether the child is alive or dead...

 

JS: Tonight, Dispatches sends 5 leading criminal investigators to Portugal.

 

CS: If we got two thumb marks then that would have to be an investigative priority...

 

JS: Their brief to bring 134 years of experience to the search for Madeleine. The Portuguese village of Praia da Luz is a quiet holiday resort, but for the last 6 months it has been at the centre of an intense police investigation and a frenzy of media speculation. Dispatches team of criminal experts arrives in Luz intending to shed fresh light on what might have happened to 3 years old Madeleine McCann in a case that has dominated the headlines.

 

[Chris Stevenson (former Detective Chief Superintendent, Cambridgeshire Police)
Professor David Canter (Director, Centre for Investigative Psychology, University of Liverpool)
Gary Ligg (Former Senior Search Adviser, West Yorkshire Police)
Matt Tapp (Police Media Adviser)
David Barclay (Former Head of Physical Evidence UK National Crime and Operations Faculty)]

 

CS: What we're looking to do is what we would have done had this been reported in the UK.

 

DC: I would really want to know an awful lot about the typical patterns of activity of the families involved.

 

DB: What you're talking about is: Did she leave on her own? Was she taken by somebody else? Or was it none of the above?

 

JS: Portuguese secrecy laws prevent the police from revealing any details about the investigation. Using information in the public domain and from their own expert observations, our team will analyse what could have happened to Madeleine.

 

[DAY 1 LAST PHOTO May 3rd 2.29pm]

 

The last photograph of Madeleine McCann was taken by her mother, Kate, at the pool of the Mark Warner Ocean Club where they were staying with friends.

 

[Charlotte Pennington Mark Warner Nanny]

 

CP: They were a very social group and they seemed all to be really respectful, nice, loving parents. Madeleine, I found out to be quite bright... errm, quite shy... errm, very sweet, very beautiful girl. On May the third, it was just Madeleine I was reading a story to. I later saw them around lunchtime. That's the last time I saw them together as a family.

 

[DAY 1 CHILDREN PUT TO BED May 3rd 7.00pm]

 

JS: The McCann's say that they put their children to bed at 7pm. It has been reported that Madeleine shared her room with her younger sister and brother.

 

[McCANNS GO TO DINNER May 3rd 8.30pm]

 

At 8.30, Kate McCann and her husband, Gerry, joined friends for dinner at the Ocean Club Tapas Bar. Between 9.05 and 9.30 Gerry McCann and two friends checked the children 150 metres walk away. At 10'clock, it was Kate McCann's turn to check on the children.

 

CP: I was working that night at something called 'Drop-in Creche'. We had one child left and... errm, the mother came in, picked up the child and just mentioned 'Hang on a minute, I've just seen a guy who's run past me, who seemed really distressed and I recognised him as being a guest at Mark Warner, but he was shouting out something like 'Maddie' or 'Abbey' or 'Gabby'.

 

[DAY 1 LOST CHILD PROCEDURE May 3rd 10.10pm]

 

JS: Mark Warner staff were briefed and fanned out across the resort.

 

CP: I went straight to the apartment. I sort of walked in, did a quick scan around and been told 'No, no. She's not here, she's not here'. Kate McCann was outside and she was very distressed. She was saying things like 'They've taken her' and 'She's gone' and, you know, 'Where is she? Where is she?' She was crying and there were tears down her face and it was absolutely heartbreaking to see.

 

[DAY 1 POLICE CALLED May 3rd 10,30pm]

 

JW: I arrived at the Ocean Club reception at around about ten to eleven. And at the time that we arrived a police car arrived and, as the police officer got out, a man approached him, who I now know is Gerry McCann,

 

[June Wright Luz resident]

 

and said that his daughter had been abducted; that there was no way that she could have opened the shutters herself; she'd definitely been taken.

 

CS: We started with three hypotheses: that Maddy had wandered off; that she had been taken by...

 

JS: Based on the few details that have emerged from witnesses, and on their own years of investigative experience, Dispatches' team of experts apply British police procedure to develop a strategy for their review.

 

CS: It really reinforces to me to get the full background...

 

JS: The team is led by Chris Stevenson, a former Detective Chief Superintendent. Among his thirty murder cases he ran the investigation in to the Soham murders of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman.

 

CS: ...and make sure that we've got that all totally and clearly documented.

 

CS: (to camera) It's very much a case of gathering as much information as quickly as you can so that you can develop which of the hypotheses is the most likely.

 

DC: ...and I think that when you can get that framework, you can begin to see the various possibilities...

 

JS: Forensic psychologist, Professor David Canter has compiled offender profiles in 150 serious criminal investigations including abductions and murders.

 

DC: (to camera) There seems to me to be a range of possibilities from, on the one hand, the child just wandered off. In other words, the child is the cause of the disappearance, right the way through to the other extreme where it's some organised network of criminals who've come in from somewhere else looking for an opportunity and have taken the child away.

 

JS: Based on DC's model, they resolve that there are three clear possibilities:

 

- that Madeleine wandered off on her own and got lost
- that she was abducted
- or that something happened to her which may have involved her family.

 

They start by looking at the first hypothesis: that Madeleine woke up and walked off by herself.

 

DC: ...for instance we need to know what the pattern of behaviour is, of Madeleine. Did she wander at all? Was she likely to wake up at night? If she did wake up, did she know her way to the pool? Could she find it on her own? Would she have gone looking for her parents?

 

JS: The team visit the McCann's apartment in conditions similar to the night that Madeleine disappeared. First they explore how she could have got out of the apartment. Madeleine's bedroom window faced the car park at the back of the apartment next to the main door. Reports indicate that, according to the McCanns, the shutters were closed and the door locked. The more likely exit route is through the patio doors on the side of the apartment facing the resort pool. It has been widely reported that these doors were closed but had been left unlocked. The team explore the route she could have taken had she left this way. The apartment is situated at a corner of two roads. From the patio door, steps lead directly out onto the street. Former police search adviser, Gary Ligg, believes it's most likely she would have headed downhill towards the Ocean Club reception to the pool area and Tapas Bar.

 

DB: There's quite a slope on this road.

 

GL: Yes. And it takes you past the reception area if she's walking. We've a tendency to walk downhill. If she's looking for her mum and dad, she may have an inkling or some knowledge that they're in here because this is where they went.

 

CS: If she's coming down here, this is the first area of welcoming light.

 

GL: It is.

 

CS: So a disorientated child would probably tend to home in on that.

 

JS: Gary Ligg has devised search plans for over 100 serious criminal investigations. In this case he would immediately advise a wider search of the area.

 

GL: (to camera) if she is lost and she's a lot warmer than the ambient temperature around, we're gonna use a helicopter with a forward-looking infra-red.

 

DC: But why would a child wander off? A child would go to find her parents. That's what she'd do, and she must know where the pool is.

 

GL: Are you going to dismiss the possibility that she's wandered off at this early stage?

 

CS: We can't do that David. We've got to look at that as a possibility and that has to be a priority, however unlikely a scenario that is.

 

[DAY 1 SEARCH WIDENS May 3rd Midnight]

 

JS: 2 hours after Madeleine was reported missing, the volunteers started to look further afield for any sign of her.

 

JW: Everybody that was in the village was out and they did a complete sweep of the beach and all up the rocks and all up the backs of the houses.

 

[Matt King Luz resident]

 

MK: You could hear from one end of Luz to the other end of Luz people should out Madeleine's name.

 

CP: Everyone was sort of on automatic rather than talking to each other.

 

MK: If it was quiet at one end you could hear the others shouting at the other end of Luz, or in every little alley way going around Luz.

 

JW: I kept thinking deep inside that she's gonna be found.

 

JS: Volunteers and Mark Warner staff continued searching into the early hours of the morning.

 

CP: It was sort of like weird not finding her. This has never happened. We've always found the child.

 

MK: As the night went on, it got colder and later and later. Everybody started realising that this isn't going to be as good an outcome as what we were hoping.

 

CP: It got really more, more and more 'Where is she?' and you'd walk past people and they had tears streaming down their face.

 

JW: The police arrived with police dogs and it was very late then so I don't think there was anything else that night that we could really do.

 

MK: Something was seriously wrong.

 

[DAY 2 VOLUNTEERS SEARCH ABANDONED May 4th 4.30am]

 

JS: At 4.30 am, the volunteers reluctantly abandoned their search for the night.

 

CS: If Madeleine had wandered off, I would definitely have expected her to have been found by a member of the public. There are a lot of other apartments over-looking the street and the exit from the apartment down the stairs, and you would have expected someone to see a small child and I would have thought, intervened.

 

JS: Dispatches' team of experts have tested one theory: That Madeleine wandered off on her own. Next, they look at the possibility that she might have been abducted and uncover some worrying leads.

PART TWO

JS: In the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz, five criminal experts, commissioned by Dispatches, are reviewing the mysterious disappearance 168 days ago of Madeleine McCann.

GL: But this time we are not talking about her wandering around, we're talking about the open ground.

JS: Within ten hours, Madeleine's story was already causing ripples around the world.

[DAY 2 THE NEWS BREAKS May 4th 7.45am]

KG: We've got some more breaking news for you this morning. A very serious story is developing and is coming through...

JS: News of Madeleine's disappearance reached the British media by 7.45 the following morning

KG: ...and it is thought that she MAY have been abducted.

[Jill Renwick family friend]

JR: ...the shutters had been broken open and they've gone into the room and taken her.

JS: From the moment that Madeleine was reported missing, Kate and Gerry McCann have been adamant that she was taken.

DC: The thing about a car is you are moving more towards this end (points to ORGANISED GROUP on the following diagram)

MADELEINE - FAMILY - FRIENDS - LOCAL OFFENDERS - ORGANISED GROUP
< -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >

It's surprising how many offenders, in all sorts of...

JS: Having considered it unlikely that Madeleine wandered off by herself, the team of experts now look at whether abduction could indeed be a possibility.

CS: You can't rule out the possibility that this was a chance abduction and somebody happened to stumble across her. You can't rule out the possibility that somebody had targeted her having watched what happened on previous nights and setting in place a plan to remove that child for whatever reason.

CS: So the Tapas bar is over that sort of orangey-yellow roofed building, just round there.

JS: The team want to see just how possible it would have been to abduct Madeleine. How could someone get into her bedroom unnoticed? How could they avoid being caught while people were checking on the children? And how could they get away unseen if her parents were watching the apartment from the restaurant?

GL: To be sure of the line of sight is to either stand at the Tapas Bar or at the doors, because of the elevation of the doors? So where's the reception?

CS: Here, this is it.

JS: They head for the Tapas bar to find out just what the McCann's could see of their apartment from their dinner table. To reach it, you must go through the Ocean Club reception.

CS: Hello there, I'm an ex-detective from England... (comes out again) ...We're not guests. They won't allow us to.

JS: Our team were not allowed into the Ocean Club, but local journalist, Len Port, did get in the day after Madeleine disappeared. His photographs show what the McCanns and their group could see of the apartment from their table.

LP: This picture here shows the scene from the Tapas bar. It is more or less from the table they were sitting at.

CS: You can't see below half way down the door that they left insecure. And you can't see the steps up there at all.

DB: No, not at all.

CS: So, somebody being wary could quite easily enter and leave.

DB: And depending on where you were with these umbrellas, you see even less 'cause they stick up over the top of the fence.

JS: Professor Dave Barclay is a leading international forensic scientist. He developed best practice in the UK. As well as the Omagh bombing, he's advised in 225 cold case murders in the last 6 years. From the photos he concludes the McCanns would not have been able to see an intruder from their restaurant table. But would an intruder have avoided being spotted by one of Madeleine's parents or their friends on their regular visits to Madeleine's bedroom?

DB: It would be easy for someone to get in and out of there without arousing any attention.

CS: And with the insecurity, we know that the time required to go in there, remove a child... you could be in and out in less than a minute.

DB: Yes

CS: Providing you'd done the necessary amount of pre-planning.
Shall we just walk around and have a look and see what we can see from the road here.

JS: The team re-visit the apartment to see how much planning an abductor would have needed in order to get in unseen. They start in the car park at the back of the apartment. It has been widely reported that, according to the McCanns, the back door was locked and the shutters of the children's bedroom were closed. If they had to force entry, could an offender get in that way unseen?

DB: If you were a burglar you could just pass over that wall and you're actually quite capable of getting in by the window.

GL: That's right. Anyone could fix that.

(Mumbles amongst the team, camera pans to other apartments)

GL: It's all overlooked.

?: It IS all over-looked.

?: You wouldn't target that.

?: No.

GL: That window and that shutter, when they left the property, was secured. The front sliding windows were open and next to the front sliding windows is a gate to the street.

JS: Search expert Gary Ligg thinks the much more likely entry point is on the side of the apartment facing the resort. Here there are sliding patio doors which were closed but left unlocked according to all the reports. The patio steps lead directly to the road.

DB: If anyone can get in there through the sliding windows, why bother to go through the shutters in the first place?

GL: Have a look here. It defies any logic that somebody would use the rear entrance or exit when this is so secluded and already insecure.

DB: That little gate, which doesn't seem to have any lock on it, goes straight onto the road.

CS: Yes.

JS: Given the ease of entry and the seclusion of the pool side of the apartment, the team begin to see abduction as a real possibility.

DC: ...if they were going to look/check on another child, where exactly was it...

[DAY 2 McCANNS APPEAL TO ABDUCTOR May 4th 10.00pm]

JS: The media quickly accepted the abduction theory as the most likely explanation of what had happened to Madeleine.

GM: Please, if you have Madeleine, let her come home to her mummy, daddy, brother and sister.

JS: Having looked closely at the location and possible ways an abductor could get in, the team returned to the apartment at night to look at how a person might use the dark to escape unnoticed.

DB: Is that where the alley comes in?

JS: While the bedroom side of the apartment is well lit, the steps leading to the patio doors are in darkness.

DB: There's lots of light round that side and, erm, if you look in there, there's shadows all the way up and it's easy to sneak out of this gate as well.

JS: The team focus on the alley way along the pool side of the apartment block. Team leader, Chris Stevenson, thinks it's an obvious escape route.

CS: With this alley way here, because it is out of synch of that street light, it is quite dark isn't it?

DB: Yes. Once you are in here, or you've jumped over that wall, I don't think anyone would see you. They certainly couldn't see you from the Tapas Bar.

JS: Half way down this alley way they discover there's another one which runs between the two apartment blocks and onto the car park.

CS: The only way, if you go down that alley way, of leaving is through the car park because to go straight on is a dead end. There's no other exit route. If you've got a car for instance parked in the back car park, you're actually better off going out this way, through between the two blocks of flats and onto the car. Whereas to go that way (points left out of the gate) you're very much more subject to be seen aren't you?

DB: You are.

JS: The team pose another question. If spotted, would an intruder raise suspicions?

GL: There was a report of somebody walking away from this area with a child wrapped in a blanket.

DB: You then become a tourist then don't you... holding a child that's sleepy.

DC: (Pointing to a map of Praia da Luz) It has some very distinctive localities in it and it wouldn't be...

JS: As the experts begin to think that an abduction is practical for someone with local knowledge of the area, forensic psychologist David Canter outlines what kind of person might target Madeleine.

DC: We haven't really talked about the victimology about a 4 year old girl being abducted. It's not a young baby that would be more typically taken by a woman who's looking for some sort of substitute or replacement child. It's not a teenager or a pubescent young girl that really can be abducted in relation to very obvious sexual activities. It is a much more ambiguous area, possibly more towards the end of somebody who's a bit disturbed, a bit confused who would take a child that they saw the opportunity to take.

DC: (to camera) There are people, very few and very rare, but there are individuals who have some sort of sexual obsession and can even get an obsession with a particular child or a child that has a particular look about her and that seems to me to be a possibility within that framework of somebody who's around that area who saw her and really became obsessed with the need to take her.

DC: (to team meeting) Those people who abduct children around that sort of age, very typically will release them after a while but my concern is that, that individual would be totally shocked and over-awed by hundreds of journalists being all over the place.

JS: If this was the case it would change the nature of the search.

[DAY 3 POLICE BACK ABDUCTION THEORY May 5th]

GE: (at an impromptu press conference - translated through voice-over) At this moment, I can confirm to you that this was an abduction but we believe the girl is still alive and well.

JS: In the following days, police and volunteers widened their search to the outlying areas of PDL.

MK: We were literally searching everywhere and were having to look in drainage holes. You'd have to be looking in the wells and in the ruins. You knew you could have been looking for something not very nice.

JS: With the volunteers operating on their own and without a brief of what to look for, their effectiveness was limited. Although the volunteers searched the beach on the night, Gary Ligg is concerned that it wasn't followed by a more thorough police search.

GL: If you look down into this area, it's pitch black out there. There's nooks and crannies and hidey holes. You can't rely that that area's clear. It's got to be re-searched.

JS: Gary Ligg and Chris Stevenson soon find other places which should automatically have been searched.

GL: (looking into drainage tunnel) There's about eight to ten of these things. Now if they're all like this... that's clear visually for as far as we can see which is what? Thirty yards? But then this is the out-run. Are the drains this big underneath the entire village under those manholes?

CS: You would always have to be looking at the possibility that this child may have been the victim of a crime, may be dead and therefore, the possibility of what we call a body deposition site is something that you'd have to bear in mind with the searches that are conducted.

JS: Just outside the resort of Praia da Luz, the landscape takes on a completely different look and in day-light, Gary Ligg finds yet more potential hiding places.

GL: (looking at dilapidated buildings) Course, we are talking about something that's been hidden. We are going to get down to the shell of the building and get everything else out.

JS: In the dry countryside around Luz, there are hundreds of wells - a perfect place to hide evidence, and another challenge for skilled searchers.

GL: (looking down a well) And having looked in it there, I can see the reflection on the surface of the water. I can see there's nothing there in that well above the surface of the water. I can't see under the lid of course, But we've got water. We've no idea how deep it is. By coincidence you've got water and a confined space and I've got people that are dual trained in both.

JS: Back in town, our team discover another intriguing hiding place. They spot large industrial bins all over the resort.

DB: (to camera) There have been cases in the UK where bodies have been disposed of in wheelie bins and then taken directly to refuse tips and dumped there in the hope that they would be covered up.

CP: We were told to search everywhere, including the bins and in Praia da Luz they're quite big and scary-looking. Although I saw police searching, I personally didn't see police looking in the bins like we did. But I don't think we looked in every bin.

GL: There's a world of difference to looking in a refuse bin and tipping it on its side, emptying it all out, looking in every bag and re-filling it. When you've done that then you can say there's no pyjamas, there's no body in there.

JS: Dispatches has learnt that the bins are emptied nightly between midnight and 4am. And even though a major search for a missing child was going on, they were still emptied on the night Madeleine disappeared. Since the collections were not stopped, there's another area Gary Ligg knows needs prompt attention but it's thirty kilometres away.

GL: We need to find out where the land-fill site is; talk to the authorities, find out where it went and try to identify which area of the land fill these particular bins were emptied.

CS: (to camera) Ideally you would secure all of the bins in the immediate area and make sure that the local authority don't dispose of any of the contents until the search team have had the opportunity to check them all.

JS: We asked the Portuguese police whether the bins and local landfill had been searched. They chose not to comment.

[DAY 5 POLICE CONFUSION May 7th]

OS: I have no facts to sustain whether the child is alive or not. We are searching for the child and until the moment she appears we can say nothing more.

[DAY 5 KATE McCANN'S FIRST APPEAL May 7th]

KM: Please, please do not hurt her. Please don't scare her. Please tell us where to find her.

[DAY 8 POLICE STOP SEARCHING May 10th]

OS: The Guarda Nacional Republicana inform that the searches are coming to an end.

DB: We just don't know what has happened because we haven't got the hard physical evidence. I think we can realise that the two ends of the spectrum are now vanishingly small. That she wandered off by herself and is alive and well somewhere, or that some organised gang took her. It's a strange place for them to take a child from. But we don't know whether she met some harm within the immediate family circle either accidentally or deliberate or whether somebody in the area did break in through either the child's bedroom window or the sliding doors and took her. It would be a really bizarre and strange crime if that took place but bizarre and strange crimes do happen.

DC: We know from very many studies that, if the family's not involved in the disappearance of a child, then it's very likely indeed that it's somebody relatively local. Somebody who's seen the child before, who knows the local situation, who knows the possibilities for getting in and getting out; away with a child. So, to my mind, that's the most likely possibility.

JS: The team have considered whether Madeleine wandered off and they take seriously the possibility of abduction.

CS: (at the alley way) ...because to go straight on is a dead end. There's no other exit.

JS: Next, they explore the theory an abductor could have been close to home.

PART THREE

JS: Five experts commissioned by Dispatches are in the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz applying their 134 years of criminal experience to the case of Madeleine McCann.

DC: At that time of night the shops would be open wouldn't they? You'd have more than one sighting...

JS: Having dismissed the theory that Madeleine could have wandered off and looked at the possibility that she had been abducted by an outsider, they would now consider whether someone closer to home was involved in her disappearance. Forensic psychologist, David Canter, argues that, statistically, this is the most likely theory.

DC: It's surprising how many offenders, in all sorts of serious offences, are very local.

(to camera) The most important aspect of a local individual abducting Madeleine would be that they would be familiar with the locality and that they were aware that she was there; and that they saw the opportunity created by the fact that the parents weren't with Madeleine all of the time. There could be an almost impulsive possibility about it. What you find with some of these offenders is thatthey have a whole notion of all the circumstances coming together to allow them to abduct the child. And they would be alert to all the possibilities and suddenly decide 'Now's the time to go for it'. And then they would make their move.

(to team meeting) It seems to me the local offender is a real possibility just because of the locality.

DB: I'd want to know if he's effectively stalked the house; knowing that Madeleine's in there.

DC: It could be somebody who'd been wandering around looking out...

DB: Looking for an opportunity...

DC: Yes, exactly. Looking for opportunities; who became aware of the opportunity. But the really interesting thing there is how did he become aware of the opportunity?

DB: How would you know there was a small child in there who was your target? It must be that you've done some sort of pre-planning.

DC: Which makes you local in some ways. It makes you around the place at least 24 hours, possibly for a much longer period, around and known in the area.

CS: (to camera) You've got to add to this equation the fact that the family were on holiday and had only been in the area for a few days. If an offender was targeting Madeleine as a victim, then they only had a few days to prepare. It could well be though that because those apartments are regularly occupied by families that the offender would know that somewhere in there was a child in the age range and of the type that he was looking for.

JS: Nearly 2 weeks in the inquiry, Portuguese police also started focussing on a local suspect.

[DAY 12 POLICE QUESTION LOCAL MAN May 14th]

ITV: In these ITV News pictures Robert Murat can be seen chatting to police officers.

JS Eleven days after Madeleine's disappearance, police called in local resident Rober Murat. They searched his house.

[DAY 13 ROBERT MURAT IS MADE A SUSPECT May 15th]

The next day, he is formally declared an arguido - an official suspect.

OS: ...a 33 year old male, living in the area of the events, was named as a formal suspect.

JS: Robert Murat lives near the McCann's apartment. Our experts went to his house to consider the reasons the police may have targeted him as a suspect. Could he fit their local offender theory? Did he have the opportunity or access? Had he been seen behaving suspiciously?

CS: This guy is an English-speaking, bi-lingual individual who, to all intents and purposes, offered assistance when he found out that there was a missing girl. So was there something that we're not aware of that led the police to declare him a suspect?

JS: On the night Madeleine disappeared, Robert Murat said he was at home with his mother, but there were challenges to his alibi.

CS: There are two potential sightings where members of the party say they saw Murat at the club.

JS: Living so nearby, he was often seen near the apartment and there was speculation that he could have been stalking the family. But David Canter has another explanation.

DC: For him, the nearest coffee bar for him takes him past the apartment. If he's going to go to the supermarket which is the only major shopping nearby, he's got to go past that apartment. So he's gonna be in this area.

JS: CS wonders if Murat could have tracked the family's movements from his house.

CS: Some of the media have made and issue about the line of sight from Robert Murat's house to the apartment.

JS: Search expert, Gary Ligg, isn't convinced.

GL: Chris. From here you can see the apartment and a couple of windows but that's all.

CS: But you can only just see part of the...

GL: Part of the window.

CS: From... the lounge window and part of the kitchen window on the left-hand side.

GL: And the entrance patio. You can't see the back door.

CS: No

JS: The team conclude the evidence against Robert Murat is thin. He became a victim of the media pressure. Chris Stevenson notes similarities with the Soham case where Ian Huntley also hung around the investigation.

CS: (to camera) It may well be that ten to twelve days into the investigation there was an element of desperation. And this individual was being identified as someone that lived in the area; had come forward to help and close, tenuous links to Huntley's behaviour led to him being identified and the police feeling obliged, almost, to actually treat him as a suspect and investigate accordingly.

MT: The tabloid media's perspective of what was happening here was very much that that man is getting an inside-track on the investigation because he's offered himself as an interpreter. And therefore...

JS: Matt Tapp is a Police Media Advisor. He handled the press for the Soham case. In the absence of a structured strategy, he knows the media will fill the vacuum with unhelpful speculation that can seriously distract the police.

MT: If you look at the Washington Sniper case - on day 10 of that inquiry, the Washington Post's headline was 'Clueless'. If you look at the Soham investigation, on day 10, the headline in at least three tabloid newspapers in the UK was 'Not One Clue'. On day 6 of this inquiry, there is at least one headline in a UK paper that said 'Clueless'. That builds tremendous pressure and in the midst of all of that is a little girl who's gone missing. And the little girl who's gone missing is almost a forgotten story. The big story is the incompetence of the investigation.

[DAY 16 NO TRACE OF MADELEINE May 18th]

JS: The police found no trace of Madeleine at Robert Murat's house. He remains an official suspect but he has always protested his innocence. Under Portuguese law he will be a suspect for 8 months unless charges are brought or the situation is formally dropped.

DC: In terms of the family, we need to know what their pattern...

JS: With Robert Murat no longer significant to them, the Dispatches' experts arrive at what in Britain would have been a first line of enquiry in the case of a missing child - the family.

CS: (to camera) one of the reasons why any investigation into a missing child must initially focus around the immediate family members is because we know, from research, that..errr..something like 70% of child victims of homicide are in fact victims of family members. And, therefore, it is a crucial area of any investigation which has to be addressed very early on before the inquiry can actually progress and spread further.

JS: The priority for forensic scientist Dave Barclay would be to test the physical evidence to prove the accounts given by the family.

DB: Going back to your point about the forensics, when we look at the stuff to do with the family, because they've all got legitimate answers, there we'd be looking for things that don't fit - anomalies between what they're saying happened and what we have found out from our observations. And they could range from just difficulties because you're overcome by emotion, to what we call 'staging'. The classic is a domestic murder, husband and wife, and then the husband tries to make it look like a burglary. Where he tries to clear up blood in the kitchen and doesn't do it successfully enough: that's staging.

[DAY 28 McCANNS MEET THE POPE May 30th]

TV: ...the couple were placed in the front row of St Peter's Square.

JS: We're a month on. The McCanns were travelling around Europe to raise awareness of Madeleine. But suspicion about them was mounting.

[DAY 35 PRESS CONFERENCE IN GERMANY June 6th]

JN: How do you deal with the fact that more and more people seem to be pointing the finger at you?

GM: There is absolutely no way that Kate and I are involved in this abduction.

[DAY 96 McCANNâ€S APARTMENT RE-SEARCHED August 6th]

JS: With the arrival of British experts in Portugal, further DNA tests were carried out as part of a review of the case.

[DAY 106 NEW FORENSIC RESULTS August 16th]

It's reported that they discovered traces of blood in the Ocean Club apartment, and traces of Madeliene's hair in a car that the McCann's hired 25 days after Madeleine disappeared.

[DAY 127 KATE McCANN QUESTIONED September 6th]

Kate McCann Is called in for questioning.

TV: Kate is insisting she welcomes every opportunity to advance this beleaguered investigation.

[DAY 128 GERRY McCANN QUESTIONED September 7th]

JS: The following day her husband Gerry is questioned.

DH: Kate and Gerry have both been declared arguidos with no bail conditions and no charges have been brought against them. The investigation continues.

JN: David, are they insisting on their innocence?

DH: They certainly are. No further comment.

JS: From early May, the abduction theory was immediately accepted because the McCann's reportedly said the shutters on Madeleine's bedroom window had been forced open.

JR: (speaking to GMTV) The shutters had been broken open and they've gone into the room and taken Madeleine.

JW: (referring to Gerry's words to the police) ...that there was no way she could have opened the shutters herself. She'd definitely been taken.

JS: But with questions being asked about how an abductor could get into the apartment, our experts take a closer look at the shutters.

DB: The shutters go into the window frame. And there's... I'll just stop that there. That's the bottom of the shutter. Those two finger marks off to the right do look as if they're from the inside, and pad marks - finger marks.

CS: And they're some distance apart.

DB: Yes

CS: Okay. They're not two thumbs are they?

DB: They look 'thumby'. If I'm inside, I'm doing this. I'm gonna be like that aren't I? So is that from the outside?

CS: Doing it that way...

DB: ...and trying to push it up?

CS: Yes

DB: You might try and help the shutter down mightn't you? If the window's open and you are reaching it from inside you'd get that.

JS: Because they weren't allowed in the apartment where the McCanns had been staying, Chris Stevenson and Dave Barclay test their theories at another apartment block. These shutters, unlike the ones in the McCann's apartment, are operated electrically. But Dave Barclay believes they could provide vital evidence in working out how the McCann's shutters could have been handled.

DB: We've some great stuff here because this is aluminium - light-weight aluminium with a fine coating of a synthetic polyurethane paint or something like that. It would mark really easily, and it does.

CS: Perhaps we need to just look at the change of angle of the thumbs because now they're in a V-shape.

DB: And they're pretty well - you've pretty well got the whole of the thumb against it. If you go back the other way, and do the same thing again, right, now you've only got the outside of your thumb on it. I believe it's from the inside.

(to camera) We must be very careful that we're not saying this is actually staging, but it is difficult to see how anybody could have interfered with those shutters from the outside without leaving some trace. In fact, having looked at them, I think it's almost impossible.

CS: If they was somebody's that was actually within the family living in the apartment then it would be difficult to draw any inference other than the fact that the person whose marks they are had at some time raised or lowered the shutters which, living in the apartment is probably, or could be, a daily occurrence.

JS: The Portuguese police chose to interview Kate and Gerry McCann on the basis of physical evidence. Specks of blood in the apartment and hair in the hire car. But even if the blood was Madeleine's, our experts believe it's far from clear how it was shed.

CS: You wouldn't necessarily, automatically expect to find blood if there'd been something happened inside though. Just because we don't find blood doesn't mean to say that there hasn't been some sort of violence.

DB: No. And indeed, if we did find blood. It's not unusual for children to trip and get a bloody nose and so on. If you found, in particular I think in this case, or any case like this, blood on the floor where efforts had been made to clean it up and the parents did not say they'd done that (as long as it was a child's blood) then that would be very significant indeed.

CS: Yes.

JS: Dave Barclay maintains that while the DNA results will tell you who the blood belongs to, without context they can't explain how it got there.

DB: Remember, forensic science is not just A single test result, it's setting it in context. So if you get a result that seems to indicate one thing, you'd want to confirm it by other tests from other areas.

JS: Rumours about the forensic evidence go unchallenged. This week there was a report that body fluids were allegedly found in the McCann's hire car.

DB: I still find it very difficult to conceive how those results got in the boot of the hire car if they're as reported - and I'd like to keep my options open. You still have to work out where the body has been and how it got transported in that hire car that wasn't hired for 25 days. Just almost incomprehensible. So we should just wait and see what the results show. It's not completely beyond the bounds of possibility that they will completely exonerate the McCanns.

[DAY 130 THE McCANNS RETURN HOME September 9th]

JS: No official suspects in their daughter's disappearance, the McCann's return home to Leicestershire; determined to challenge the forensic results and clear their names.

[DAY 131 CASE FILE PASSED TO THE PROSECUTOR September 10th]

The next day, the Portuguese police passed their case files to the public prosecutor.

[DAY 132 September 11th]

Press speculation continues unabated and new theories emerge almost daily.

[DAY 133 September 12th]

Some newspapers suggest that the Portuguese police are about to charge the McCanns.

[DAY 141 September 20th]

But less than two weeks after being made suspects, the public prosecutor announces the McCann's will NOT be re-questioned. With the confusion surrounding the evidence against the McCanns, what do our team make of the Portuguese investigation as a whole? Having considered all three possible theories for Madeleine's disappearance, which one do they think is most plausible?

PART FOUR

JS: Dispatches sent a team pf expert criminal investigators to Praia da Luz to shed light on the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. Having reviewed the Portuguese police investigation, the team meet to discuss their findings. Police media consultant Matt Tapp thinks the Portuguese police's lack of communication with the media hampered the investigation.

MT: Going back to basics, a crime has happened, you need as much information and intelligence that's accurate as possible. And we're used to, in the UK, to securing that information and intelligence - partly through media appeals. None of that actually happened because, the police say, because of their laws of secrecy, and they were bound to say nothing.

CS: (to camera) It is crucial to do, not just on-the-record briefings, but to be able to provide some background information to ensure that their approach is focussed and in-line with the investigation approach. Because, if that isn't the case, the media can be extremely disruptive.

MT: One day in August, here are two English newspapers: 'The Sun'; 'The Daily Express'. What's the Sun's front page? 'SHE MAY BE DEAD'. The same day: 'MADELEINE SHE IS ALIVE'. Here is a, I think, the demonstration of what you can anticipate when the police choose, or are not allowed to fill the void, and others fill it in their place.

JS: The large sewers and industrial bins are still Gary Ligg' main worry.

GL: It's not clear if the bins were searched to a degree where you could be confident that she wasn't in one. And if they were removed, there's been no suggestion of a follow-up to find out where they are and to search the landfill there.

JS: Forensic scientist Dave Barclay considers what might have happened to Madeleine.

DB: Having seen the circumstances and the lay-out of the apartment, it looks to me more likely, the priorities are higher, that some harm happened to her within the apartment. No more than that.

CS: Right

JS: He argues that the Portuguese police's forensic work may have compromised the investigation.

DB: It's clear that the forensics examination on the first day wasn't what we would have expected. There were opportunities missed, and one of those opportunities did a great dis-service to the McCanns. Had they been more aggressive in protecting the apartment and gaining a full forensic examination of that apartment, it may have been that the McCanns were put completely out of it on day one.

(to camera) We really need to wait until we get the actual results. I have seen comments that the Forensic Science Service has said 'this or that' and I worked for them for twenty-odd years. I never knew any forensic scientist to give details of case results in a live case. So I think, I hate to say this, but possibly quite a lot of it has been made up by the media.

JS: Team leader Chris Stevenson thinks that the Portuguese police may not have been prepared for a case of this magnitude.

CS: They only have a very small number of cases of child abduction and child murder and, therefore, it's inevitable that they won't have the same expertise and experience as we have in the UK. There did seem to be a lack of grip almost in the first few hours and we know from our experience here, that is a crucial part of any investigation.

DC: It is not a young baby that would be more typically taken by a woman who's looking for some sort of substitute or replacement child.

JS: Forensic psychologist Dave Canter thinks that the unprecedented media attention put pressure, not only on the investigation, but on the potential abductor.

DC: (to camera) In the past when young children have been abducted by a stranger, by somebody who is obsessed and wants to abuse the child, they tend to have kept the child and often, in fact, to have allowed the child to go free after some time. But I would have thought that such a person would've been totally over-awed and horrified by the media storm that so quickly descended on that locality and I think such an individual would have got very frightened indeed about the consequences of their actions and may well have done something they never intended to do.

[Kate McCann, Gerry McCann and Robert Murat remain suspects under Portuguese law. All three maintain their innocence.]

[DNA results are due from the British Forensic Science Service this week. The Portuguese police investigation continues.]

[It is now 168 days almost to the minute since Kate McCann reported her daughter Madeleine was missing.]

JS: It is now 168 days almost to the minute since Kate McCann reported her daughter Madeleine was missing.

~~ END ~~

Madeleine McCann parents say some don't want their daughter found:  BBC World Service

Kate McCann wrote:Some people would be embarrassed if Madeleine was found....

Kate McCann: If this was a... a murder inquiry there'd be an active investigation but, as it stands, we have a [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] who's still at large and therefore puts other... potentially other children at risk and we have a missing child. So why is there no active investigation?

Gerry McCann: Officially, for 18 months, law enforcement are not pro-actively doing anything to find Madeleine and who took her. And I just think that is fundamentally unacceptable. Now, we've been assured that if new information comes in, it will be followed up. In fact, the information that's come to light, during the recent court case, has shown that almost every single piece of information that's gone to Portimao - the police station in the Algarve, where the investigation is based - has been treated in exactly the same manner; which is being declared as 'not relevant'.

KM: I mean, I think it is a farce.

GM: There have been, errr... very poor elements of the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and at the same time it's probably been one of the biggest investigations ever in Portugal. So we aren't, errr... tarring everyone. There have been individuals, who, for whatever reason, have not, errm... seemingly wanted to find Madeleine; that's what it appears to us. So there are people who are clearly making it more difficult and there are others within this country, errm... for whatever motives, want to make it more difficult and, you know, there are many people trying to derail what we are doing along the way.

KM: I also think there'll be some people that'll be greatly embarrassed if [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] was found and that... that scares me... that scares me that that might affect their want, or not, for Madeleine to be found.

Mike Williams: You've got two other children to raise. What do the twins, errr... know of what happened to their sister?

GM: Their recognition that what's happened is morally very, very wrong and that their sister should be at home with them and needless to say Sean, in particular, talks about having an aeroplane and flying all over the world and looking for that man that's taken Madeleine and when he gets him he's going to rescue her and put... take his sword out.

MW: Kate, you devote your time to the campaign to find your daughter?

KM: My day is very much, kind of, partly investigation; largely campaign now. We've started this holiday pack - which is posters and car stickers.

MW: So you're hoping that people will take these overseas with them when they travel; put their stickers up and...

KM: So it just means the image is out there constantly as a reminder to people that she's still missing.

MW: What do you hope happened? What's the best scenario that you can find comfort in? 

KM: You just hope that it's somebody who is looking after Madeleine; that she is now... that she's not at harm and that she's getting love and happiness. You know, that's all I can hope for.

GM: And that isn't some sort of dream. At the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, in the United States - with the most experience in child abduction - is that the younger the child, the more likely that they have been taken to be kept.

MW: What's the worst case?

GM: I mean, early on we couldn't think of anything else but the worst case; that she'd been taken, abused and killed and dumped - or maybe left seriously injured and dumped out in the freezing cold.

MW: You believe that she's alive? Not hope for it, do you believe it?

KM: You know, in my heart I feel she's out there; I mean, I really do. And that together with the feeling I have of this not being over, you know, that her still being there. The hardest thing, obviously, is how do we find her?

This transcript is already on another thread:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

It is from an official CNN thread. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I'm bringing this over on a new thread because of certain parts of the transcript (I've bolded them) which have relevance to the BBC's announcement of its Crimewatch Special programme.

I've also bolded any factual errors I've found.

The programme was advertised as: 'Maddy McCann Alive?'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NANCY GRACE

Maddy McCann Alive?

Aired August 27, 2013 - 20:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe there`s a very good chance Madeleine is out there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is a real possibility that Madeleine can still be found alive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Madeleine McCann was 3 years old when she disappeared from a resort. Now British police say they have new leads and are reopening the investigation. They want to question 38 people across Europe, including 12 British nationals.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The authorities in this country are now actively pursuing Madeleine.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They say this new evidence was a development after combing through more than 30,000 pages of documents related to the case.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her parents have worn the grief and anguish on their faces day after day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Breaking news tonight. A beautiful 3-year-old little girl, baby Maddy, reportedly snatched during a luxury resort vacation. Her parents partied down at a dinner 100 yards away, leaving baby Maddy and twin siblings there in their hotel room alone.

Bombshell tonight. In a stunning turn, Scotland Yard announces baby Maddy McCann may be alive. That`s right, in a stunning turn of events, Scotland Yard doesn`t just investigate the possibility that she may be alive, they make a formal announcement this child is very likely still alive this many years later, this after her parents had come under suspicion, many others had come under -- falsely under suspicion. Maddy McCann alive?

Tonight, across the ocean, joining us, Jerry Lawton, senior true crime correspondent with "The Daily Star." Jerry, this is an incredible turn of events, especially with Scotland Yard, they keep everything so close to the vest, to make a public and formal announcement that baby Maddy McCann is very likely alive. Not only that, that a special cop squad has been set up to find her and run down 39 active leads in the case, Jerry.

JERRY LAWTON, "DAILY STAR," (via telephone): Incredible, Nancy. I mean, it`s an astonishing development on the story, six years on since Madeleine actually disappeared.

We were summoned to a police briefing. As you say, Scotland Yard normally play their cards very close to the chest, particularly on something like this. It was quite exceptional circumstances.

And yes, at that briefing, the officer who has been appointed in charge of a 37-strong team of UK detectives now actively hunting Madeleine worldwide made the announcement that he has read all the original case files, he`s read all the files of the seven or eight teams of private detectives that the McCanns hired to try and find their daughter.

They have read everything, and he said on the record there is not one shred of evidence he has seen that suggests Madeleine is dead. Therefore, they are actively assuming that she is still alive. Incredible development.

GRACE: Straight out to Mike Walker, senior editor, "National Enquirer." Mike, what do we know?

MIKE WALKER, "NATIONAL ENQUIRER" (via telephone): Well, one of the things the police are basing this idea on is that in 2010, a guy named Wayne Hewlett (ph), who is the son of a pedophile, convicted, named Raymond Hewlett (ph), told a British newspaper that he received an unnerving letter regarding the case from his father, who`d died a week before.

Now, this guy is on his death bed, OK? He has no reason to lie, this pedophile. And he got drunk and he let it out in front of his son that he`d stolen Maddy to order as part of a gang. He said the gang had been operating for a long time. It was based in -- a gypsy gang in Portugal -- had been operating a long time.

And what they did was, they would pinpoint children, send a photo of the kid to couples who couldn`t have children of their own and who subscribed to their, you know, so-called service. And then if the person said, yes, I like this little girl -- and Maddy was a very beautiful little girl -- they would go and kidnap the child. And that`s what this guy said that he did, and the child was taken out the country, across the border into Spain.

GRACE: Out to Matt Zarrell, covering the story with me. Matt Zarrell, there have been a lot of developments, a lot of focus on a tall, thin, scraggly, dark-headed male on the beach the day baby Maddy disappeared, taking photos of children. What do you know, Matt?

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes. Files reveal that on May 9th of 2007, officers interviewed the owner of a restaurant on the beach, which is about 20 minutes from where Maddy McCann was staying. And the owner recalled seeing the McCanns with their three children for (ph) the last time at the restaurant. And they revealed that they saw a strange Englishman who was spotted taking pictures of children on the beach visited by Maddy just before she went missing.

And British police were told that Madeleine had been abducted three days after being photographed by a spotter. Now, police have not located this spotter, but it is definitely a theory that they are looking at right now.

GRACE: Not only that, Alexis Tereszcuk, senior reporter, Radaronline.com -- for those of you just tuning in, a stunning development by Scotland Yard, who comes out and makes a formal announcement they believe baby Maddy McCann may very well be alive.

Years have passed since baby -- baby Maddy goes missing while her parents are at a luxury resort. That evening, they were eating about we thought 100 yards. Now it has been narrowed down to 100 feet away -- about 100 feet away, the McCann apartment, basically across the pool at a tapas restaurant, and an adult would be sent back to the apartment every 30 minutes to check on the children.

Now, isn`t it true, Alexis Tereszcuk, that one of the other parties, one of the other members of the dinner party, went back and they saw a man carrying a child wrapped in a blanket, but they didn`t put two and two together?

ALEXIS TERESZCUK, RADARONLINE.COM: You`re exactly right. And this is something that was a distraction, actually -- well, no, it wasn`t a distraction, but the police were only focused on Madeleine`s parents. And so the people with that were with her actually said that they saw someone else carrying this child. This could have been their daughter.

But the police only focused on the parents for years, in fact, and they ignored so many other leads, so that with this new investigation opening, they`re going to look into everything, and this is one of the things that they`re scrutinizing because this could be a huge lead. They just -- they didn`t know at the time. They didn`t realize that what they saw could have been the child that would end up missing. It just wasn`t something that entered their thought process.

But now the police are absolutely focusing on this. And they`re trying really hard to track down every last detail. They are revisiting every single tip, every single lead, and they do feel like they`ve narrowed it down. But the parents and this other couple, none of them are considered suspects. So the 38 people, none of them...

GRACE: But what`s interesting...

TERESZCUK: ... are included in this.

GRACE: What`s interesting about it, Marc Klaas, president, founder, Klaas Kids Foundation, is that evening, they were actually afraid to bring in a hotel baby-sitter because they didn`t want somebody with the children, Maddy and her twin siblings, that they didn`t know. They were afraid that a baby-sitter unknown to them could hurt the children, would ignore the children. So they thought one of them going back every 30 minutes to check on the children would suffice.

MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Whoops, Nancy. They made a critical mistake there. You should never leave young children unattended. And in fact, in the United States, I believe it`s against -- in California, I know it`s against the law to leave very young children unattended.

GRACE: Out to the defense lawyers. Joining me tonight, Parag Shah, defense attorney, Atlanta. Also with me, veteran lawyer Renee Rockwell.

The parents came under fire when baby Maddy went missing. It turns out that there had been DNA reportedly found in the trunk, their car trunk, that matched baby Maddy. But when it was all said and done, Renee, it turns out that this car was rented 25 days after Maddy went missing.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, a little interesting that they would make such a big deal. Doesn`t it smack of JonBenet Ramsey to you? Aren`t the parents the first suspects and the first ones that need to get excluded?

But in a situation like this, you just got to hit it and move on. Ask Marc Klaas. He manned up. He showed up. He answered all the questions. You hit it, and you move on.

GRACE: Well, Parag Shah, I don`t think that the McCanns, as opposed to other cases -- I do not believe the McCanns are in any way responsible for Maddy`s disappearance. But the reality is, Parag, is that parents have to expect to be a prime suspect because statistically, they are the ones responsible when children go missing or are killed.

In this case, I don`t think that that is true. But you know, that comes with the territory of being a parent. When something happens to your child, you`re the first one the cops look at. That`s just the way it is because statistically, it`s true.

PARAG SHAH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, and that`s ridiculous because the way people should be arrested or suspects is with evidence, and these 38 suspects that they have...

GRACE: OK, I don`t know what you just said...

SHAH: I hope they find this girl...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... the way people should be arrested is with evidence? I don`t know if that`s even a sentence.

SHAH: Well, what happens is there`s a rush to judgment and somebody...

GRACE: Parag Shah, I don`t know...

(CROSSTALK)

SHAH: ... going to be arrested on this...

GRACE: Nobody`s been arrested, Parag.

SHAH: They have 38 suspects...

GRACE: They were not arrested, Parag. I don`t know what you`re talking about. They were not arrested.

SHAH: They weren`t arrested, but they were highly scrutinized, which there was no basis...

GRACE: Well, then -- OK, why don`t you...

SHAH: ... and just because parents --

GRACE: ... deal with the facts we`re talking about right now? They were not arrested. They were suspected and -- put him back up, please!

SHAH: Unfoundedly!

GRACE: Parag, have you -- Parag, I assume that you`ve tried murder cases, have you not?

SHAH: Yes.

GRACE: OK. Just out of curiosity, it`s neither here nor there, but how many, one?

SHAH: I`ve tried multiple murder cases.

GRACE: OK. So two. That`s good. Parag, the reason -- there is a reason that parents are the first suspects, that husbands are the first suspect when a woman, a wife or a girlfriend goes missing because, statistically -- you know what? Let Marc Klaas...

SHAH: This is different, though!

GRACE: ... tell you...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Please cut his mike.

SHAH: ... they had those same 38 suspects...

GRACE: Number one...

SHAH: ... back then, as well.

GRACE: ... it`s 39, and they`re not suspects. They are leads. But Marc, could you please explain to Parag Shah why parents, such as you or me, would come under suspicion first.

KLAAS: Well, because, as you said, the statistics take you there. In the vast majority of cases involving child victims, the parents are the ones involved. Unfortunately, it`s a reality that has to be dealt with.

The McCanns had to deal with it, and they just couldn`t get past the scrutiny of the authorities, and I think that that really tanked the case back six years ago.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Madeleine McCann was 3 years old when she disappeared from a resort.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s important that people know what I saw because, you know, I believe Madeleine was abducted.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t think we can say 100 percent. I mean, you know, we`re realistic, but what we do know is there`s a very good chance that she is alive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say they have new leads and are reopening the investigation called Operation Grange.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Jerry Lawton, senior true crime correspondent, "Daily Star." Everyone, for those of you just joining us, in a disturbing and surprising about-face, Scotland Yard, police, have now announced that Maddy McCann may very well be alive. The general public had decided that Maddy McCann was dead shortly after her kidnapping. Not true.

To Jerry Lawton, joining us from "The Daily Star." Jerry, what has made them come to this announcement?

LAWTON: Well, Nancy, basically, it`s the hard work of Gerry and Kate McCann, Madeleine`s parents, who since she disappeared and despite, as you touched earlier, the scrutiny upon them, they`ve continued to fight a single (ph) campaign on their own, basically, to get people to continue to look for their daughter.

The Portuguese police archived the original case in 2008 as an unsolved mystery, and the McCanns refused to accept that, hired private detectives, and continued to, basically, fight a campaign to get somebody to look for her. They appealed directly to British prime minister David Cameron, and he listened to them. They had a direct meeting with them. He ordered British police to launch a review of original investigation, which they spent two years and 5 million British pounds doing.

And as a result of looking at those files, they have seen a whole host of unsolved leads that the British police don`t believe have been investigated, traced and eliminated to a standard that they require. And that is the process that they are now embarking upon.

They`ve still only made their way, Nancy, through two thirds of the file. There`s another one third to go. But it`s taken two years to get to that point. So you can imagine the volume of information that they are sifting through. And basically, the British police have said there are too many leads here, there`s too much that has not been done, we need to start over and do it properly.

GRACE: To Mike Walker, senior editor, "National Enquirer." What do you know about a taxi driver who has sworn under oath that he picked up Maddy McCann with a woman and three men the night she disappears?

WALKER: Yes. And he said also that he noticed a little -- Maddy had a little black spot in one eye that made her look a little bit distinctive, and he saw all that.

Now, incredibly, Nancy, this cab driver said that he was dying to be interviewed by the police, let everybody know what he had seen, and no one ever interviewed him. And that`s another possible lead here that has surfaced. And then, of course, there was the other one. Did you hear about Posh Spice or a woman...

GRACE: The lookalike? Yes, tell me.

WALKER: She looks like -- what`s her real name? I keep calling her Posh Spice.

GRACE: Victoria Beckham, Posh.

WALKER: Right. And -- Victoria Beckham. And -- and -- remember, I said that the pervert, pedophile, confessed on his death bed that a Portuguese gang -- he had helped kidnap the child for a Portuguese gang. They took her over the border into Spain.

Now, here`s another little connection that they`ve discovered. A woman -- there were reports of a woman who looked like Victoria Beckham in Barcelona, Spain. And three or four days -- four days, I guess it was- yes, May 7th, 2007 -- at a marina acting very agitated And she had possibly an Australian accent, but she spoke fluent Spanish. And she was asking, she was approaching men and saying, Are you here to give me my new daughter?

It was as if she had been told to go there and meet somebody, and she got agitated and wasn`t sure who she was supposed to meet, and she kept asking, Are you here to deliver my new daughter?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New details in a 6-year-old cold case

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police now say they think this little girl, Madeleine McCann, may still be alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They say this new evidence was a development after combing through more than 30,000 pages of documents related to the case.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, we`re hoping that this actually leads to something more promising.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t really want them to have the burden of this, of having to keep looking and looking and looking and not being able to stop, you know? So we need to find her now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Is Maddy McCann alive? A stunning announcement by police that this child may very well be alive. They have called in all that they can, all the manpower, all the feet on the ground. They`ve created what is called a cop squad to find baby Maddy.

Mike Walker, senior editor, "National Enquirer," could you repeat the story? Now, this goes back to a cab driver that swears he picked up Maddy McCann with one woman and three men the night after she goes missing. Repeat?

WALKER: Yes, that`s exactly right. And he said that he saw the little black spot in one of Maddy`s eyes. It was very distinctive. And he`s absolutely sure it was her.

Now, again, you know, who knows if it was, but he is very, very sure. And all these years, he has asked and begged for the Barcelona -- the Portuguese police to interview him, and they never have. They closed this case down a year after it started, and that`s been it ever since.

Luckily, as you say, now Scotland Yard has stepped in with the British prime minister behind them and really launching something. And they`ve put together a bunch of leads, the kind of stuff that we are reporters, newspaper reporters, would be after if we had, you know, 5 million pounds to spend.

But this may just do it. And the reason there`s so many people, Nancy, involved is they`re not dealing with 38 separate, you know, suspects. They`re dealing with, obviously, gangs, rings, in other words, where, you know, you might find one ring of kidnappers, and there would be, you know, 15 or 20 people involved.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Patrick in New York. Hi, Patrick. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi Nancy. Love the show. I was just wondering what new evidence they`ve found that suggests that she`s still alive.

GRACE: You know what? Jerry Lawton, I`m going to go to you on that - - Jerry Lawton with "The Daily Star."

LAWTON: Hi, Nancy. Yes, I`m afraid it`s a negative, rather than a positive answer. Basically, we were told by the police who called us in to a press briefing at Scotland Yard that it`s based purely on the fact that they`ve not found one shred of evidence suggesting the opposite, that she is dead.

They have looked at multiple theories (ph), thousands and thousands and thousands of pages of witness reports, documentation. Work has been done by Interpol worldwide following up leads and sightings, and there is no evidence, particularly in the forensic area, to suggest that Madeleine is dead. Therefore, they are -- until they believe otherwise or find otherwise...

GRACE: Right.

LAWTON: ... they will go on the basis that she could well still be alive. Obviously...

GRACE: To Greg Kading, former LAPD...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... author of "Murder Rap" -- Greg, it`s very disturbing to me that all of these people -- there`s a string of them -- were not interviewed by police. How does that happen?

GREG KADING, FORMER LAPD DETECTIVE: It does happen, unfortunately. And you know, things fall through the cracks. An investigation is only as good as your investigators. And so if you have complacent investigators or incompetent investigators, well, that`s how your investigation is going to end up.

This is very encouraging, however, that there`s this new specialist task force, you know, with specialists involved who will -- who will re- look at everything with fresh eyes. And you have all this compelling corresponding information with a -- you know, with spotter, and you`ve got, you know, somebody saying that they saw the child later. I mean, this is a tremendously encouraging situation for Scotland Yard.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Big headline from this is police believe that she may still be alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Certainly no evidence to suggest otherwise.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Madeleine McCann -- British police say they have identified more than three dozen people of interest in her disappearance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They identified 38 suspects.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The parents of baby Maddie McCann never giving up in the search for baby Maddie. I want to refresh all of your recollections as to the events surrounding her disappearance that night. Out to Mike Walker, National Enquirer. Mike, if you could, please go back through the facts very carefully about the night she disappeared.

WALKER: The night she disappeared, the parents had been, as you said, checking on her. They were having dinner with some people about 300 yards away from -- pardon me, about 100 yards, 300 feet away from the room, and they were sitting around a pool. So they could see the room. They were sending somebody over. One of them would go over every 30 minutes or so to check on the children, and then suddenly of course the disappearance.

Now, what happened immediately, when the disappearance was reported, and the police arrived, the first thing the police didn`t do was secure the crime scene. People were walking all over, all around. As Scotland Yard says, you know, destroying what might have been valuable forensic evidence, or maybe not.

The next thing that happened was the police just decided arbitrarily that because both of these people were doctors, one of them a very respected cardiologist and his wife a very respected general practitioner, doctors, they decided what they were doing probably was drugging the kids so that they would stay asleep and not be a bother, and probably that`s what happened here, and she overdosed the kid and the kid died, and so they got rid of the body. Question, Nancy. Where do you get rid of a body? OK? They tried to say that rented car had DNA evidence traced. It was later proven to be wrong, wrong forensic testing. But you know, what did they do? They secretly kept the baby somewhere under the bed in the rental place where they stayed, under police supervision all those days? No. You can`t hide a body like that. Very hot in Portugal that time of year. Bodies decompose very quickly. So there`s in way that anybody can say there`s any evidence that the child had died.

And even when the Spanish -- Portuguese police brought in corpse sniffing dogs, they said we sniffed your car keys and we had a trace of a dead body. There you are. And as the doctor, as the wife pointed out, she said I handled six dead bodies just days ago, before I came to Portugal for my vacation. That`s what I do. I`m a doctor. And so there`s no evidence that the child died, but there`s a lot of evidence mounting that she may still be alive.

GRACE: And not only that, Mike Walker, police had also said they found baby Maddie`s DNA behind the sofa in that hotel, that resort hotel room. That turned out to be false. The DNA that they claimed was baby Maddie`s DNA in the car, the rental car was not her DNA. And not only that, the rental car had been rented 25 days after she disappeared.

WALKER: And the lead detective in the case, the Portuguese detective was bounced off the case after about five months, God knows why, but he then went on to write a book saying that the McCanns were killers, and he made a half a million dollars from that book.

GRACE: I hope he was sued. Was he?

WALKER: Yes, he was.

GRACE: Was it successful?

WALKER: Yes.

GRACE: With me, Mike Walker, senior editor of "National Enquirer." Also with us, Jerry Lawton, true crime correspondent, "Daily Star." What can you tell me, Jerry, about a man in the stairwell spotted by more than one witness in the stairwell near Maddie`s resort room, just 24 hours before she vanished?

JERRY LAWTON, DAILY STAR: This is a girl that`s (ph) wearing sunglasses. This is just one of approximately eight suspicious characters seen in and around the apartment within 48 hours of Madeleine`s disappearance, none of which the police have determined have actually been traced or eliminated from the investigation. Hence why there`s so much excitement. This was a guy who was spotted by (inaudible), virtually a prowler, looking suspicious, wearing sunglasses. No apparent reason for him to be there. The apartment itself is within a block of a holiday compound. He has never been traced. Amazingly, many of the people who actually stay in the neighboring apartments have never still to this day been questioned about Madeleine`s disappearance, and they were in those apartments the night she disappeared.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Renee Rockwell, Parag Shah joining us. I usually don`t pile on the police, because I firmly believe that for the most part they are doing the best they can under the circumstances at the time of the incident. But in this particular case, I think it was horribly botched. They were at a resort in Portugal. The cops did not treat it as a crime scene. It was not roped off until, I think, the next day. Hotel personnel had been tromping in and out. Tons of people had come in and out. Whatever evidence may have been there was completely destroyed. The little animal that she slept with, cuddle cat, had not been tested for DNA. It was found on the floor. You know, there, the borders of the country are like going from state to state in the U.S. The countries are not huge. You can get to the country`s borders fairly quickly. They didn`t close down the borders. There were tons and tons of police mistakes, Renee.

ROCKWELL: You got to wonder, Nancy, had they been vigilant, would this child still be gone. This is a human trafficking case. You can get $200,000 for a beautiful child like that, and you got to wonder is the child in Australia, is the child in Barcelona. It`s a crying shame.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Help from private investigators has made a difference.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s a very good chance she`s alive and there`s certainly nothing to suggest otherwise.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Really it`s important not to give up on Madeleine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This, they are having to keep looking and looking and looking and not being able to stop, you know. So we need to find her now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (inaudible) she`ll be found. (inaudible).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police are hopeful. Authorities are asking the public to help find this little girl, wherever she may be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Take a look at the shots of Maddie McCann. I still call her baby Maddie. Liz, if you could show me several shots of her. It is her right eye as you`re viewing it, you`ll see it on the left, that has a very peculiar black mark in the middle of the iris. There you go. She`s absolutely a gorgeous child, too. Medical examiner, forensic pathologist and toxicologist, Dr. William Morrone, joining me tonight out of Madison Heights. Now if someone were to find a child that looks like baby Maddie, how quickly can it be determined if it`s really her and what is the process?

DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: If the authorities are in a large city and they have a university that`s reasonably equipped, they can identify her in 24 to 48 hours. But if they`re in some third world country or a rural setting, it`s going to take a couple of days. They`ll want to get dental records, want to get a DNA swab, they`ll want to get some medical records, and they will compare it to the DNA standards of the parents, which can be sent over the computer. But doing the DNA analysis on Maddie McCann, the suspected Maddie McCann, is going to take a couple of days and they`ve got to get her to a major city or a university to do that kind of work.

GRACE: What is the mark on her eye? What is that?

MORRONE: There`s pigment in the body that`s put in different places. Like the color around your iris, it`s a specific pigment that`s generic, and black specks have been put in the eye by design to reduce glare and sunlight, so that people from Northern European areas where eyes are green and blue, can tolerate the sunlight just as good as people with brown eyes. People with brown eyes tend to tan better and they don`t have the need for sunglasses. So it`s an adaptation we`ve had over thousands of years.

GRACE: Dr. Morrone, while I still have you, let me ask you this. Referring to the DNA that was in the car and the DNA that the police claim that they found behind the sofa in her rental unit, how is it that DNA can become so degraded it can no longer be used for official testing?

MORRONE: DNA is chains and strands of amino acids. And when there`s erred (ph) segments, they`re missing, they`re chopped out. And the police, with the technology at that time, tried to say, OK, this is the parents` DNA and we have some other DNA here, but there was obviously something missing, and they made some assumption. We`re much better at this, and the DNA technology has really exploded. But they made assumptions that were incorrect because of missing pieces they thought they could match up other parts. It`s like a puzzle.

GRACE: Right.

MORRONE: It was a bad move on their part, way too early.

GRACE: To Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. Marc, what do you believe in regards to that area of the world, as far as human trafficking. And I don`t mean just sex trafficking. I mean trafficking for adoption purposes.

KLAAS: Sure, this is baby trafficking. I think that six years later they`re going to under -- it will be an enormous challenge to be able to track down a Gypsy gang, because they tend to be very transient anyway, to be able to bring this together. But Nancy, the one thing that`s really clear is this is all happening now because of the McCanns` dogged determination to find out what happened to their daughter. That`s not the hallmark of guilty parents. It`s obvious there were huge errors made at the beginning of this investigation, and that`s why they`re in the situation they`re in now. You know, the fact that the prime minister of England has taken a personal interest in this, I think is really the driving force behind this current investigation.

GRACE: You know, to you, Jerry Lawton, senior true crime reporter joining us from the Daily Star. Everyone, it`s a parents` worst nightmare. You take your children on vacation, and they`re stolen from their rental unit, never to be seen again. British police now believe Maddie`s kidnapper may have been staying in one of the apartments very near the McCann family. What do you think?

LAWTON: Well, I think all options are open. It is indeed possible, and one of the reasons it is possible you`ve touched on is the poor investigation in the early stages. There`s a phrase that a police friend of mine uses over here on any investigation (inaudible) when a child goes missing, and that is clear the ground beneath your feet, and that means you start at the point where she was last seen, and you literally clear absolutely everything around there, working outwards, systematically and methodically, to try and determine what happened to her.

That has clearly not happened here. As we`re aware from the Portuguese police files, which are available to the media and were released following the previous investigation, people who were -- they never even found everyone who was in those apartments, staying in them the night she vanished. People were renting them privately. Some people were renting them through companies. Tour operators were renting them. And the police never did that ground work. So they don`t even know who precisely was in each apartment when Madeleine went missing. So the possibility that one of this possible gang was in that apartment or staying very close by cannot be eliminated at this stage until a far more thorough investigation has taken place.

GRACE: Matt Zarrell?

ZARRELL: Specifically they`re looking at four apartment blocks containing 59 apartments, including apartment 5a, which is where Kate and Jerry McCann were staying with Madeleine.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: In a stunning about-face, Scotland Yard now says baby Maddie McCann, who was kidnapped off her family vacation, may very well be alive. Alexis Tereszcuk joining us. Senior report, Radaronline.com. What are some of the sightings of Madeleine?

TERESZCUK: Well, the night that she was taken, there was a sighting of her as I`ve spoken about earlier being carried out. There was also somebody as we spoke about in the taxicab. But there have been sightings all over the world of Madeleine. Different people have said they saw her. In fact, they have been very recent. In other spots in Europe, people saying that they suspected another little girl with blonde hair who resembled her. There were some in France, there were in Spain, which is very close to there, so it`s something that the police are looking into again, because this is giving them hope. This is finally people that are spotting this little girl and with the attention it`s brought back and her parents relentlessly staying in the media and keeping attention on their missing child. People are now saying they have seen her around.

GRACE: To Greg Cason, psychologist, Ph.D. joining me out of L.A. If baby Maddie is now found after Scotland Yard is now basically reopening the case, what difficulties, what hurdles will the family have in getting her back and assimilating her back into the family?

CASON: This will be incredibly tough for this family to go through. Because they`re going to have to have a child who does not know them. She was just a few days shy before her fourth birthday before she was taken, and now she`s almost ten. So she`s going to have a life with another family that she now knows as her family. So going back to her parents is going to be a huge adjustment. Plus, her parents are going to have to deal with the trauma of what they went through and having to not only have a huge sigh of relief, but have to deal with all the emotional feelings that have been coming up and been pent up over these last six years.

GRACE: But how do you do it? How do you do it, Doctor? How do you get over the hurdle? What do you do with a child that doesn`t even know you anymore?

CASON: You know, it`s going to take a long time. They`re going to have to acclimate her and have her be a part of the family, tell her the story of what happened. She was probably told the story that if she does have any memories, that her original family didn`t want her. I`m sure that was part of it. Plus, this little girl might be angry that her parents didn`t protect her, that they didn`t keep her from being abducted. So the parents are going to have to take a long, slow re-acclimation process. Work with therapists and other health professionals in order to have them come back together as a family unit.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Everyone, Labor Day coming up. We celebrate a very special group of workers, working moms. Are you a working mom? Do you know one who deserves recognition for hard work at home and at work? I want to hear from you. Send us a video explaining why you or your loved one is the best working mom in America. Five videos with the most votes wins my signature handcuff necklace, earrings, t-shirts, the works. Details, go to nancygrace.com. After you go to the website, send in those videos.

Tonight, we remember American hero, Army Specialist Shane Ahmed. 31, Chesterfield, Michigan. Army Commendation Medal, Army Achievement Medal, Iraq Campaign Medal. Parents Jamal and Subra (ph). Brother Assif (ph). Widow Ava (ph). Daughter Evita. Son Evan. Shane Ahmed, American hero.

Is baby Maddie alive? She`s not a baby anymore. Every parent`s worst nightmare. They took baby Maddie, just a stunning little girl, on vacation with her twin younger siblings. They go to dinner nearby, checking on her every 30 minutes. They find that she has been taken from her bed. With me from the Daily Star, true crime correspondent Jerry Lawton. So many theories circulating, cops looking for a pock-marked male. What can you tell me about that?

LAWTON: Well, the pock-marked male has featured quite heavily since the very early days of the inquiry. And this is something the Portuguese police originally looked at. This was a guy who was seen hanging around the resort three or four days prior to Madeleine`s disappearance. And he was seen basically first of all on the beach. He looked out of place on what is largely a holiday beach. And what is a quaint Portuguese resort. Not a large resort. And this guy seemed to be looking at children from the fun club that Madeleine actually attended during her holiday. I stress Madeleine wasn`t among those girls, but that -- he was showing what was described as an unhealthy interest.

GRACE: They are at the club where they, like a kids club at a hotel or a cruise ship, where parents leave them with babysitters. Everyone, the search for baby Maddie goes on. As we go to break tonight, happy birthday to Shirley Talbert. Mother, grandmother, loved her husband dearly, Dave Talbert, who has just passed on, who fought in Vietnam. She loves arranging flowers, and she bakes the best sugar cookies in the world. Happy birthday, Ms. Talbert. Everyone, Dr. Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

END

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Interview with Huw Edwards. BBC1 - 2nd May

Gerald MC : I think it's not been a conscious preparation because we both hoped we wouldn't get to that stage but I think that what we have done has been incredibly busy in the background, erm there's a lot of work in the investigation side, it's kept me incredibly busy over the last four to six weeks, Kate has more to do with the Amber campaign for the young children..

Kate MC : I mean it's pretty much a day by day, week by week, to be honest, I mean I don't look too far ahead really, erm as Gerry said we didn't want to get to this point, and now that we've got to this point we need to use the opportunity I guess, to focus on what is more important, which is Madeleine.

Huw Edwards : You're making a very big effort to get the message out again so, in its latest form, what is the message you're giving on this first anniversary ?

KMC : The message is Madeleine is still missing and she needs to be found and we guess we are urging people to help us still and I know people have helped us from day one, but we still need the help and Madeleine still needs that help and we need that key bit of information with which it could be over (makes a gesture "it's so simple").

GMC : (looking at the public) Sure, really this is really a direct appeal. We wouldn't be here if we weren't appealing to the public to come forward, to those who actually have actually phoned with information may it be to the police or hotline, we want you to rack your brains if you were then in PDL, someone knows something, that could unlock this and that's the key for us getting that information (bending to pick up a poster that he presents to the camera saying distinctly the hotline number) I would ask to show this, if it's ok, we have a new hotline number, We will guarantee anonymity for anyone who wants it, all information will be treated confidentially

HE : You've been very thorough, you had a very high profile over the past year, what makes you think...

GMC : (interrupting) I have another (? desire ?)

HE : But of course but at least it has been effective in campaigning terms, that high profile, what makes you hope that the year on someone is going to turn up a factor, a hint which  could make the difference ?

KMC : (interrupting) Well, she's still missing, she hasn't been found (video skips.. There is still that bit of information). And you know somebody definitively knows something and they may not realize that, but you know it's linked, you know there might be something they remember from that day or around that day, erm... which is vital, it just takes a few things to slot into place.

GMC : I think that's right thought, because that time of year people are going to be saying, thinking about summer holidays, is going away, last time was here and it would bring it home to people.

HE : When have you lost contact with the Portuguese police about the investigation ?

GMC : I think we don't really have direct contact or some contact, but there is some contact with our Portuguese solicitor.

HE : You asked for information ? Did you ask for updates on the campaign or have you just given up with asking ?

GMC : We would very much like to know exactly what has been done, what hasn't been done, who has been eliminated and on what grounds and just what leads have still been actively followed and that information hasn't, erm been forthcoming to us...

KMC : This is a crime, this is a horrific crime against a young child and I think we need to focus on that, you know Madeleine is still missing, an hideous crime has been committed, and that person is still out there.

HE : As fellow parents, we talk about the case obviously, it's a natural thing to do, it's been in the forefront of people's minds. One of the questions that lots of people asked during these months is how do you maintain the hope that you might find her alive, what keeps that hope in place ?

KMC : Number one, Madeleine is so important to us.. and Sean and Amelie. Number two there is no evidence, absolutely no evidence that any harm has come to her and three, if you look at for example the States, where you know they have a lot os statistics related to this kind of crime, children are recovered, you know, a lot of children are recovered and the younger the child the better the chances are.

GMC : As a parent, you know, you cannot give up on your child, you wouldn't give up and you would do anything...

KMC : (interrupting) And what a disservice it would be to Madeleine to assume otherwise without any evidence !

HE : How do you manage life at home with your twins who, as you said many times, deserve as normal upbringing as they can be given in the circumstances, how do you keep that going ... Where do you get your strength from.. to do that ?

KMC : I think the children can be the strength for sure, you know, Sean and Amelie are amazing little people and they are very happy and actually they have a very normal life, and they go to the nursery two days a week and the other days, when they're at home, we just do the normal things that anyone would do with the children.. and we do spent a lot of the evenings working obviously and phone calls, emails and things. But their life is as normal as it could be, but they haven't got a big sister.

HE : How present is Madeleine in the house ? I mean you talk...

KMC : Very.

HE : ... So that doesn't change in that sense.

GMC : (speaking over) Madeleine is still a big part of Sean and Amelie's life and they have still spent two thirds of their life with Madeleine been ever present and these constant reminders.. and we've taken a lot of professional advice about how best to manage the situation and whether they would have been adapting as well as they have (laugh), without that advice I think probably they would, but for much further reassurance (?)... they have been fantastic, I don't think we would have coped without them, but there has been a big extended family role, friends in this and the overwhelming support we've had from the vast majority of the public has really helped lift us and driven us on. In Praia da Luz and the days afterwards and erm.. the feeling was almost like a tidal wave and motion came back and that really helped lift us.

KMC : It still does, I mean we still get so much mail and support of people and it really does lift you, you know, it's...

HE : Do you mind my asking something that lots of parents have asked me which is what do you say to your young twins when they ask questions, I mean how have you dealt with that with their questions and inquiries ?

KMC : Well I guess they are still only 3, I mean as Gerry said they talk of Madeleine a lot, which is lovely. You know, they just say that Madeleine is missing and we say, yes but we are looking for her, but it doesn't really go to any more depth than that and it doesn't need to at the minute.. because you know, can I ask anything else ? You know we've always believed and we've been told the best is to be honest with them.

HE : There is often in the press where people say things, you know, like you can't show emotion and all the rest of it when you are already under enormous pressure, how do you cope with that ?

KMC : We'd be lying if we said it wasn't hurtful and it's amazing how so many people could have such an opinion of things they know nothing about but again it's a development you know and yes it takes you away from it for a minute, but you just have to get back on track, you know..

HE : You had a very high profile visit to Europe where you were promoting the Amber Alert scheme and there are signs today that the support for that among members of Parliament is still growing, erm.. why have you locked on into this particular scheme as one which you liked to promote ?

GMC : One of the things we encountered are (?) very, very early one and clearly as a parent when your child goes missing you want everything done and even though that night we were saying things like the border has been alerted, the ports, various things, and you worry is that child is going to be moved and moved quickly far away from the scene of the crime...

HE : (interrupting) You both were very honest about the questions you asked about your own actions when Madeleine disappeared and the doubts you had and the criticism you levelled at yourselves. Are you finding it easier not to be self-critical a year on, or not ?

GMC : We've talked a year ago and from the minute we discovered Madeleine missing, we tried to focus on what can still be done and dwelling on the negative you can't change what's happened and, as much as we'd love to have turned the clock back and decided not to have gone erm to Tapas erm restaurant that night. We can't change it and what we need to focus on and what we're asking the public to do is to concentrate on what can still be done, Madeleine is a gorgeous little girl, she's still out there and, you know, we're asking for help to find her.

HE : And for those who (?) the campaign has been running maximum energy for a year and do they ask questions on how long can you sustain that kind of campaign with that kind of energy and commitment that it needs, the fact that it clearly affects your entire lives, what do you say to people ?

KMC : You know I only care for Madeleine (?). You know, I want Madeleine back, I need to have Madeleine and... that's all that keeps us going

[Acknowledgement pamalam at gerrymcannsblogcouk]

Madeleine McCann Case on Spanish TV 4 Feb 25,2010



Transcript by "Reme"
Translation by Mercedes
With thanks to "Himself" for English grammar

00:55 - Concha Garcia Campoy: We have news in the "Maddie" case. The book "Maddie: The Truth of the Lie" that was written by former Police Co-ordinator Gonçalo Amaral, will remain prohibited in Portugal as we informed here previously.

Earlier this year, it was provisionally withdrawn from the bookstores at the request of the McCanns and now the courts have just ratified the measure. Jerónimo Boloix, how are you, good afternoon. And we have a person who knows much about this case, the author of a blog, Mercedes how are you?

Can you interpret what happened as a new victory for the McCanns?

Mercedes: A momentary victory. The fact that someone bans the freedom of speech of the police or any person, is very, very, difficult to maintain in a court, Gonçalo Amaral is prepared to appeal to the European Court, and he will, he is a strong man and this is a struggle they have between them and I think in the end ...

Concha: It seems it is true that the struggle is to reopen the case, is that right Jerónimo? What he wants is to know the truth ... is taking a risk, a risk from the very start...

Mercedes: Yes

Jerónimo Boloix: I think that even though this first ruling is contrary to the interests of Amaral, it may facilitate the reopening of the case, I think Gonçalo should appeal this ruling and contribute to the case. What surprises me greatly is that they are trying to silence the book, and we have just seen a few seconds ago Paulo Sargento's statements.

Concha: Wait a minute, now that you mention this, because it is an exclusive statement of the forensic psychologist, who has been involved in the case from the start, and Alejandro Vazquez has been with him and actually he is absolutely certain; listen.

Exclusive Interview with Paulo Sargento.

Video: Pictures of Madeleine playing with her brothers

Alejandro Vázquez: You've worked on the Madeleine case from the beginning.

Paulo Sargento: From the beginning, from the second day after the disappearance.

Alejandro Vázquez: And what's your theory?

Paulo Sargento: I think the girl died on May 3, and it would have been utterly impossible for the kidnapping to have taken place. The abduction has been a media construction only, because there is not one supporting fact to support this.

Alejandro Vázquez: Why the McCanns are now saying that there is no evidence that Madeleine is dead?

Paulo Sargento: Because their (the McCann's) interpretation is contrary to death, in fact there is evidence: corpse odour, the scent of human blood and there is a set of forensic evidence, evidence that the girl is dead unfortunately.

Alejandro Vázquez: Can your surmise that with such evidence that there has been a murder, manslaughter...

Paulo Sargento: Yes.

Alejandro Vázquez: ...the case has been shelved.

Paulo Sargento: I am sure that were it a Portuguese couple, the treatment wouldn't have been the same. The forensic evidence would have been constituted as proof, and probably the couple would be in prison.

Alejandro Vázquez: How would you define Gerry and Kate's behaviour?

Paulo Sargento: They have changed the roles, also advised by image consultants, from the beginning Cuddle Cat in her hands, and then we saw that Kate disappeared from scene and Gerry took over the leadership. Gerry is very aggressive. He is very, very aggressive, he is a man who is very impulsive... ahhh, Maddie disappeared, between quotes, and Gerry McCann asked for a priest, if my daughter disappears I would ask for more police ... after that he requested an image consultant, to me it would be better to ask for more police. If somebody presents me the first piece evidence of an abduction, I'll shut up forever, but real evidence and discussed in a logical manner.

Alejandro Vázquez: How can we understand now that the accused is Gonçalo...?

Paulo Sargento: Gonçalo Amaral represents symbolically, what Gerry and Kate do not want, the death, and their participation in concealing the body. Because he has been the Chief Inspector, has left the police, has published a book that says the same as the process.

Alejandro Vázquez: Are you confident that at some point the truth will be known, and the process reopened?

Paulo Sargento: I believe in justice; I believe that Justice will be done, I don't know when.

Alejandro Vazquez: Thank you for everything.

Paulo Sargento: Thank You.

End of the Video

Concha: Mother! He speaks clear, categorical, absolutely, eh... Do you think, as he says that if the McCanns were Portuguese they would be in jail? What do you feel Mercedes?

Mercedes: Of course, without a doubt. Parents who recognize that they left three small children alone, under four years of age, to have dinner and they say they were passing by every half hour, which has been shown, that at least the night before this was not true, there is a statement that appears in the Process of a neighbour who heard the girl crying for an hour and a half the night before, that for any other couple...

Alfonso Egea: It's not a hypothesis; there have been examples in Portugal. There was one case of a child and the mother was not only suspected but was imprisoned, obviously the nationality of the McCanns plays an important role here. Now after hearing Paulo Sargento imagine...

Concha: Because he is precise, she is dead. There are no forensic doubts.

Alfonso Egea: I guess the next move for the McCanns will be to request this man to shut up too and if this was up to them, everyone should shut up ...

Jerónimo Boloix: The most shameful of all this is that, as Paulo Sargento said, the book reflects the status of the investigation. The person who spoke is a forensic psychologist who has been involved with the case from the beginning. He said white and in a bottle... (Spanish riddle: white and in a bottle... The obvious answer is: milk). The only thing he didn't say is when these people should go to prison. But let's be realistic here, what is happening, is a political struggle by the British Government against the Portuguese Government, this is preventing further clarification, and unfortunately, we may be in a situation of a judicial lie. There an issue that we must not forget, this little girl disappeared on May 3, three years ago, and no one is looking for her because no one cares for her. There are instructions from the parents, individuals and institutions that support the parents in their bogus search for the girl.

Concha: Well, it's true that, in addition to what yourself and Paulo Sargento have said, it is clear that, when a child is missing and the first thing you do not do is call a priest, the first thing I would do is call the police, here they requested an image consultant, not more police to investigate, now that's...

Mercedes: I can say that the first article was published at 1 minute past 12 on May 4th. We can see in the process that the first call to police from the Ocean Club's reception was at twenty to eleven PM... ummm, the timings just don't fit.

Alfonso Egea: You know very well that, that summer, they shared time with a television producer, who was the second person to receive a call, incomprehensible...

Mercedes: Actually...

Jerónimo Boloix: Equally incomprehensible is that having access to the future British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, they didn't request top British specialists, Scotland Yard, but this image consultant, this is pure and simply an agreement in that the image of the McCanns must appear above suspicion in the matter of their daughter's...

Concha: It surprises me more, Mercedes, and some will think and I believe with good reason, you must be the person that knows more about this case here, because you have collected most of the information... "Until we know the truth". Well, what a commitment, no? You've made a commitment to Gonçalo Amaral and, do you think that we will know the truth if people like you don't throw the towel...?

Mercedes: I think we are all helping each other on the internet, there are currently very few media outlets that are treating this, like today, in a serious way, nobody wants to censure the parents, the aim is to allow the police to do their job, nothing more. You can see very clearly that there was external pressure, no matter from whom; there has been pressure to close a case that was ongoing, something that is unprecedented in an investigation of this nature.

Jerónimo Boloix: I want to ask Mercedes if you know the reason why this trial that has been held now, against Gonçalo Amaral's book, why haven't they admitted a witness or why haven't the English witnesses appeared?

Mercedes: They were pressured. They claimed they were under official secret. Official secrecy is something that has been invoked on several occasions. There are journalists who have requested information and reply they have received, is that it could not be provided because the case was under the Official Secrets Act.

Concha: If a Prime Minister is related....

Jerónimo Boloix: But Justice for the girl and ascertaining what happened to her, I think it is paramount...

Concha: Well Mercedes, it has been a pleasure, many thanks. We will contact you again when we review this case that I find so very interesting.

Mercedes: Thank you; thank you very much for addressing this issue seriously and for providing an opportunity for Madeleine. Everyone gives the opportunity to Kate and Gerry McCann."

[Acknowledgement: pamalam at gerrymccannsblog]

Transcript of radio interview Brian Johnson: Faked Abduction

Source: Paul Drockton Radio Show

[Note: Brian Johnson is Steve 'Stevo' Marsden]

Paul: Good afternoon, this is Paul Drockton, you're listening to the Paul Drockton radio show and we've got a special guest today, Steve Marsden who is also a published author. And we're going to talk about the er, the potentially faked abduction of Maddie McCann and basically, just to get this started ...Brian, er Steve is basically a British citizen and moved to the United States a few years ago and he's done quite a bit of work with er, er, computers and programming. He's also a licensed pilot, and drives or fly's British aircraft. In addition to that he studies history, photography, soccer, rugby, travel, and he considers himself quite the expert on ['cadaver'] and done quite a bit of research on what we refer to as the Davinci Code. In fact he's been to Rosslyn chapel quite a few times.

So, let me ask yer, erm, er Brian, what do you think er is the most critical thing we need to know about Maddie'

Steve (Brian): That's a good question, really er Paul and thanks for having me on the show today. Ermm...the story, story's just exploded from, you know, three years ago May 3rd when she disappeared. Ermm..it's just been, a government conspiracy, a British government conspiracy to er, cover up the true circumstances of the disappearance from day one. I think that's the most insidious aspect to the nature of the British government intervening in the case. They didn't let the Portuguese police get on with their job, and er, this was exploited with the British media to a sort of a propaganda campaign against the investigators like from day one. And erm...

Paul: So when you say investigators, who, who, who would you name as, or who would you consider to be the investigators of this story'

Steve (Brian): Well he main investigators were the Portuguese CIE which er, the PJ which er judiciario they're like the equivalent of er, probably like the FBI in the USA. they're, they're, you know, higher than the sort of average police guy on the street and erm, the leader of that investigation was Goncalo Amaral and he was on the case from day one and through till October 2nd 2007.

Paul: Can you kind of give us a review of what the, er Portuguese FBI found in this case'

Steve (Brian): Erm, well they were investigating it, getting you know, they were, they were pretty much led in the investigation by this group known as the Tapas9 which were the nine people, Madeleine's parents with seven other couples ' seven other people er...sorry, er three couples and another lady. And they were kinda leading the investigation down the road of abduction but with very little evidence. And...the

Paul: How, how are these ...I'm going to interrupt you as we go along because some people are not as familiar with this as...you know, you are obviously and we wanna make sure that we cover some of the questions that they probably have, so we're talking about seven individuals ...are these individuals like co-conspirators ...would you...are they, are we talking about a paedophile ring' What, what exactly are we referring to'

Steve (Brian): Erm, each of the couples, as I say, there's four couples and another lady so that there's nine people, nine adults and eight children in the group. They were just friends erm, in each of the couples were at least, like
Kate and Gerry the parents of Madeleine they were both doctors, er, in the other couples there was at least one doctor so they all knew each other from medical school, erm, they went out on the vacation to Portugal for one week, the vacation was organised by one of the doctors within in the group, David Payne...and erm, you know, they pretty much went on what a lot of people would consider an adult holiday er vacation. They went erm, they left the children each day in a daytime, sort of day care cr'he facility and then in the evening they would go out socialising and leave the children back in the apartment so, you know, first question is....

Paul: Were there other children that were with Madeleine' Is that what we're talking about here'

Steve (Brian): Well, each of the couples had their respective children you know, so according to their own alibis they had left the children each night in the apartments while they went out socialising.

Paul: Gochyer. What was the oldest child' Do you know' I mean...

Steve (Brian): Well, they were all toddlers pretty much, babies in arms or kind of, you know, in strollers or you know, three, four year old. That sort of age range.

Paul: So are we talking about.... they basically locked these kids up at night while they went out and partied'

Steve (Brian): Well that's a good question because on the original er witness statements on the day after she disappeared on May 3rd ...on May 4th witness statements from Gerry and Kate they spoke of erm entering the apartment from a locked door. So clearly in that case you're right it was locked, but their alibi soon changed to er, entering the apartment through the patio doors which they claimed to have left open.

Paul: So....I guess what I'm trying get at here is you know, very minimum this is a case of neglect, I mean if you're talking about toddlers and I'm assuming they're still in diapers [diapers = nappies] or at least some of them were...

Steve (Brian): That, that...absolutely in diapers ...they even mentioned that so yes absolutely.

Paul: So minimal charges that could have been filed here were child neglect charges, the fact that they left them er, reportedly left them unsupervised and er, okay, I apologise so ....In, in your book you talk about er, there's certain questions that er... 48 questions that Kate did not answer. So Kate's the mother of Madeleine correct'

Steve (Brian): yep, yep that's right. Kate Healy.

Paul: Okay, so tell us a little about what their story was and then tell us, you know, where you see the holes.

Steve (Brian): Well the very first, we have to look at the very first story in the police file, the witness statements from the day after er, she went missing when they were taken into the police station to give their first account. So the very first account erm, were that ....

Paul: would it be okay if we took calls through this show as well' Oh I'm sorry Brian,
Steve (Brian): Oh yeah. Absolutely.

Paul: I'm gonna take one, take on right now

Steve: Okay.

Paul: Give me one second ...okay so, ...we lost the caller so...okay, I'm sorry, go ahead...

Steve (Brian): Okay, so, so , yeah...I've got a chapter in my book how the story unfolded and basically, it.... this, this was unanimous that the window and the shutter into the bedroom, the children's bedroom had been jimmied open or broken, erm, every single person that spoke to the media in the hours after the, er disappearance said that the window had been broken and she'd been snatched through this window, but the interesting thing is that when we see the police forensics erm, dusting the shutter and window for prints on the morning of May 4th, those prints were subsequently found to show that there was only Kate's and, I think, the police officer who probably examined the window on the night, they were the only prints found on the window. But 94 days after the disappearance and this is crucial, Kate was still telling the world that the window had been smashed open.

Paul: the window, the window was intact and someone had actually appeared to jimmy the door, correct'

Steve (Brian): NO! No, there were no signs of damage whatsoever

Paul: Hmm, just the fingerprints on that door perhaps, so the bottom line is what we're talking about here is perjury pretty much. Did she say this in court or was there...something else like that'

Steve (Brian): No, they never had any inquest and they never erm, they were never formally charged. Nobody's ever been formally charged with any offenses in connection, apart from there's a few people who tried to collect money on behalf of the official Madeleine Fund. Obviously that's sort of...

Paul: Well, that's a big issue I think to...we're gonna get back to it, first we'll take a little commercial break and I'd like invite yer to visit Crystals Trading er, if you're considering buying gold or silver or if you're considering buying more gold and silver you can go to my website er deadmansmusings or Paul drock MA and as you know one of the most popular websites in the entire world er, simply because of our investigative journalism and because of the guests, the high quality guests that we have right here on our program. So if you can visit my website, you'll see that there's an ad there for Crystals Trading, the phone number is 888 385 1116 and yer wanna talk to Mike. And they are just amazing erm and able to find what you want as far as gold bullion and silver bullion erm, at the lowest possible cost er yer gold bullion and silver coins whatever it is that yer need to convert your cash into hard currency so that you literally don't lose it during these times of economic er hardship and we're literally on that kind of verge of collapse here in the United States. Gold and silver are really the only safest thing you've got left er for your retirement and for your savings. So give er Crystals Trading a call the numbers 888 385 1116.....

...okay, so Brian let's back outta here and so what you're saying is this, that er there is no signs of forced entry correct'

Brian: Correct

Paul: And the question I've got is that, how much money has this lady rasied er for this fund'

Brian: Oh, the family erm wasted no time in setting up like an official er fund to collect the money, er within days of the disappearance and it was a well oiled machine, they used a very high powered firm of London lawyers to er, set the fund er going and erm, that was kind of a mystery in itself because the family live nowhere near London so they were well connected with a lot of high powered influential people in setting up this fund which raised probably in the region of 4 to 5 million dollars

Paul: amazing. I mean let's just examine this, I mean this to me is, you know, again thinking about this case is that here you have a er, purportedly grieved parent...right...and, how, how, what was the time between the disappearance the er setup of this er fund' This request for donations'

Brian: Erm, well they had a website domain registered on May 11th and she disappeared on May 8th ...er sorry, May 3rd so that was what, 8 days. And then on May 15th er, four days after that was the official Limited Company that's formed.

Paul: To raise, to raise donations. Now what types of activities have we seen that they've done to you know, find Madeleine, supposedly even look for her, er where's this money gone, have they spent it on searching for Madeleine'

Brian: No, the thing is they've employed some private detectives in the first years of accounts there was 250,000 which is approximately half a million dollars back then with a group called Metodo3 and staying in Barcelona, Spain, this is an outfit that had no track record in looking for people so first of all the recruitment of this company is called into question anyway


Paul: Yeah, so bottom line is what you're saying is they brought in a bunch of amateurs er that they knew were not the best people for the job.

Brian: Right, right

Paul...so looks like as if er and you said that was 250,000 ...have you seen the other expenditures that were made by this fund'

Brian: Yeah, the company have also spent money on a guy called Kevin Halogen who's actually awaiting deportation from the UK to the US erm, he's implicated in some er there was a warrant out for his arrest in, I think in the State of Virginia last year erm, because of some embezzlement kind of, type of er activity in the DC area.

Paul: So we're talking about er...was he...let me ask you this...was he a produciaree(') in this fund, did he handle money er...what role did he play, do you know'

Brian: Who, who are you talking about now' Halogen'

Paul: Yeah.

Brian: No, I mean there's no sign that he was connected with the fund erm, I don't think there's any signs on the surface if you like of anybody that they've spent money with as being ....er..use the word, say money laundering or whatever but I mean, it's just that the choice of the company that, the people, the investigators that they used, they just don't seem to have any track so if they're using donated funds, you know, why isn't anybody questioning erm, like, surely you'd go to a company that's had successes in finding people.
Paul: Yeah, which they haven't...and has there been any, let me ask you this, has there been any efforts in Portugal to find er Maddie'

Brian: No, er when the police erm, the police wound up the case after, almost after a year of the cold case er, because they didn't have enough evidence to bring about a prosecution so it's been shelved as a cold case but erm, i don't think Portugal have ever really followed the line of a missing person in terms of looking for her because they believed that she, she died erm in the apartment, that was their conclusion, that's why I wrote my book. My book is actually really just about the conclusion and why the Portuguese police concluded that she had died in the apartment

Paul: Let's focus on that ...so tell me; tell me why er the Portuguese police determined that Madeleine had died in the apartment

Brian: Erm, well first of all they couldn't find any evidence of any ...there's no physical evidence of abduction apart from the Tapas9 saying she was abducted. Erm, there's no, there's no, there was no evidence of any person going through that window, there was no scuffmarks there was no...the Lichen [lie-ken'] on, on the window as not marked in any way ermm...

Paul: The moss correct'

Brian: The moss, yes.

Paul: Okay

Brian; So here was no sign of anybody taking her through that window, erm, and you know, there was so many contradictions in the ever changing alibis. So, they brought in erm, a police expert dog handler called Martin Grime who erm, had a cadaver dog and a human blood sniffing dog and er, they brought this guy in and he works for the FBI, he works around the world, his dogs have got international passports so they're used in a lot of international cases with a lot of success and never had any failures and they went into the apartment, I spoke to Martin Grime personally in December a couple of times and er, he outlined the search procedure to me and you know, when he was introduced into the case erm, he called it a clearing run to go into the apartment, he had no idea or any preconceived notion that the dogs would alert in that apartment, but they alerted in the McCanns apartment

Paul: they alerted for blood correct.

Brian: Well first of all he puts the cadaver dog in there and of course if the cadaver dog senses there's a dead body then he brings in the blood sniffing dog. So, two dogs were deployed separately but the two dogs alerted in the same places.

Paul: Yeah, that's amazing, I mean that ...so the bottom line is the cadaver dog identified that there was a dead body in that house or in that apartment.

Brian: Correct...and that...

Paul: So...and they also found blood...I'm sorry, go ahead.

Brian: yeah, I was going to make the point ...I even asked Martin Grime, I said well what's the chances of somebody planting some evidence in there because you know, there is a product pseudo scent which is often used to train these cadaver dogs but Martin assured me that his dogs do not alert to the manmade product so he said, the only way he could see erm, you know, evidence of the dead body in an apartment is if somebody had gone to the morgue you know, and introduced a real dead body oe you know, items relating to a dead body in there.

Paul: could cadaver been from someone died previously, I mean, how long does the scent stay in the apartment' I mean how long....

Brian: Well, the police checked the apartment and there was no record of anybody having died before or after the McCanns stayed in the apartment.

Paul: Hm. So bottom line is er this gentleman is saying this dog will not alert on any artificial substance er, that there would have actually have been a dead body in that apartment for the dog to alert and then the second dog was brought in and found blood ...okay...so the question I've got for yer is ... what's the response from er Kate and er and these dogs, what did she say'

Brian: Ermm...well, the response was that she said she'd come into contact with six dead bodies in her work as a GP as a General Practitioner in the weeks preceding the vacation

Paul: what did the dog hander say to that explanation'

Brian: Er he didn't. He said you know, I mean he's a very professional he didn't make any opinion ot me erm, because as he says his dogs are just a tool in the process, it's up to the forensics after the dogs have gone in to...you know they're, they're ...the dogs are finding a needle in a haystack after that it's down to the forensic guys to examine the needle. So you know....

Paul: have they been able to document that she did in fact was around six dead bodies before she went into the apartment'


Brian: Well that's one of these factual things that, you know, we know she said that but there's been no proof or collaboration of that.

Paul: um hum...So bottom line is er, obviously what we have here is we have every reason to suspect there's enough evidence there to launch a criminal investigation and obviously it sounds like Portugal ..This is outside of their jurisdiction right now or ... you tell me. Would they have to actually bring her back into the country for trial or...

Brian: Well, in Portugal, the way there judicial system works they were actually named as official defendants or arguidos in September, early September of 2007, this was soon after the dogs had gone in, just over a month after that and the legal status as an arguido meant they had to report to a police station every five days, er within every week I think it was, you know, there were certain conditions and erm, that legal status only...er...either had to bring about charges or they had to erm, free them from that legal status. So in the summer of 2008 they were actually released from that status when the case was shelved as a cold case. Now the McCanns told the world that they were officially cleared, well that's not true they were not officially cleared because they were never officially charged, they were just ... er...they had their arguido status er rescinded.

Paul: So one of the things we have here of course is that er, not just manipulation but this is the thing, it sounds as if these people's stories have changed now, it's er, it's basically changed to suit whatever information comes out.

Brian: Oh...it certainly has. I mean that's one of the noticeable aspects of the case that, for instance er, when the police made their er appropriate international rogatory requests with the British government to er, interview some of the suspects in England in 2008 obviously this was a vacation, most of the people had gone back home so, you know, they had to follow it up with interviews in the UK which they did substantially in April 2008 ermm...

Paul: You say 'they'...who's the investigators here.

Brian: Well, the Portuguese investigators then liaised with the British, er the British police in the er the county where the McCanns live, this is Leicestershire constabulary and so most of these er rogatory interviews were conducted in Leicester in England and erm, they also made requests for, you know, documentations for instance the McCanns financial records, the erm, medical records of Madeleine but the British government intervened and would not allow Madeleine's medical records to be disclosed

Paul: Mmmm....that's crazy. So we're talking about conspiracy goes right to the top. We're going to take another quick commercial break here and then we'll come back er to the story. So obviously what you're hearing here is disturbing, disgusting and er this is what we do, this is what the purpose of my radio show is, Paul Drockton radio and also the purpose of my site is to expose these criminals and you know I haven't asked Brian's opinion on this but I'm assuming these people, if they are guilty of this are also involved in the occult, Satanism, there's gotta be some connection, there usually is when we talk about paedophiles. If you would like to make a contribution to this effort er you can go to my website and for as little as $5 a month you can become a sponsor. Or if you have a small business you want to advertise as well we have programmes. And as a site you need over 44,000 unique visits per month and obviously here on our radio show we have thousands of visitors that listen in. So, if you want to be part of this, go to my website deadmansmusings or Paul Drockton and er, click on the 'urgent' and become a sponsor for site radio button.

Okay, so here's a question I've got, obviously all this is leading to the conclusion, at least I'm having...there's a conspiracy going on here and erm, can you tell us more about that'

Brian: Well, the amazing thing is as I say, the amount of British government intervention and when I say that I'm talking about the highest level of cabinet ministers,, er, Tony Blair was the Prime Minister at the time er, Gordon Brown was the Chancellor, both of these people made personal phone calls to the McCanns and notably in Kate's diary she refers to those people has Tony and Gordon as if she's got some prior connection with these people, erm, you know, there's a certain familiarity with these people that erm, transcends a normal persons er, if you like, relationship with the government and that's never been disclosed and I think as public servants, publically elected servants Gordon Brown and Tony Blair should be made to answer for what they're real role was in the McCann case.

Paul: um hum...so the bottom line is er, I guess it is a question that the reason, that I'm thinking to myself here is, these other kids that were there erm, were they interviewed, were they talked to at all'

Brian: That's an interesting point as well you see, er, in Gerry McCann's interview when he was made an official defendant he claimed that the twins weren't capable of speech but we have a lot of anecdotal evidence where relatives in the family say oh the twins have asked when is Madeleine coming back so we know they did have a good grasping of speech erm, but they never bothered to speak to the children, the twins, er Madeleine had two er twin brother and sister they were younger, they were two years old, er, but notably as well erm Paul on the night in question the twins were fast asleep and with all the commotion in the apartment they never woke and that was a point noted by several police officers.


As well as Fiona Payne who was one of the Tapas9 erm, and she actually commented that Kate kept going up to the twins and putting her hand on their mouth to see if they were breathing. And with all this commotion for several hours the twins just didn't wake up.


Paul: that's interesting. So the bottom line is, is that, okay so they did find blood though, or they did scent blood in the apartment so the question is, is it possible that the, you know, maybe the er, suspected murder took place outside of the apartment'

Brian: Well, I don't think that er...you, you used the word murder there, erm, I don't think Portugal has ever claimed it to be a murder and...

Paul: aha...I said suspected murder so...I mean, I can express my opinion and that's what I'm doing.

Brian: Sure, sure, well Goncalo Amaral he erm, he puts forward the theory that she climbed on the sofa and fell off while unattended erm, I personally don't believe that, you know, but who am I to say...if she died in the apartment erm, there was some erm reports and early reports in September of 07 talking about a blood spray pattern on the wall er [commencing'] a fractured larynx so you know...

Paul: I'm sorry, a fractured...'

Brian: Larynx in the throat. There's a branch of forensics that can examine erm you know, where a wound was inflicted from the blood spray pattern on the wall or something.

Paul: Are we talking about literally, I mean this is, you know I'm going to ask the questions, but we're talking about she could have had her throat slit'

Brian: Ermmmm....I mean, I mean there is no particular evidence in the files or anywhere to say if she died how it occurred and erm, I mean one of the cadaver dog also alerted in a flowerbed outside the apartment er, the veranda was about, I'd say, about eight feet above ground level, so she could have climbed and fallen off and fallen into a flowerbed for example. You know, there's numerous theories...

Paul: the bottom line is you're talking about a blood splatter pattern here that seems consistent with someone who er, I mean, if you fracture larynx erm, that's not going to spray blood, if someone cuts yer that's going to spray blood and so, I mean this again, I'm just speculating here. But the point is, there's plenty of evidence there for a, for a criminal investigation and that's the bottom line is that there hasn't been one

Brian: Well, the criminal examination was erm, sabotaged by the British government as I say, going back to those records, those financial records that came back from England filled one side of paper and it just basically said that Kate and Gerry had no record of bank accounts or credit cards which is crazy because we know they rented a car er, using a credit card so ...

Paul: they covered up their tracks pretty much, I mean in other words there's no way for either you or I do know what they did, where they were at the time this took place.

Brian: Right, and if there was, you know... peoples spending habits is crucial in any criminal investigation but the Portuguese investigators were denied that knowledge.

Paul: So...you've got..here...you've got ..erm I don't know, I'm just going to ask you this. You've got 48 questions that Kate did not answer can you get into that a little bit'

Brian: Well, she basically ['] the fifth on every one of those questions er, if you ask me if I can just bring up the questions here...now..

Paul: No, that's okay, I don't think we need to get into ... you've got your book and this will be a good time, tell people how they can get hold of this book.

Brian: yeah, if they visit the website which is erm, fakedabduction.com they can order it directly online from, form the website, erm, they can order, if they order quantities for 4 to 9 books there's a discount on the handling fees but erm, at the moment it's sold, the book is sold into six different countries er the UK, the USA er, Portugal, Germany Spain and Belgium and er, you know it's provoking a lot of interest.

Paul: Well hopefully it will bring about er you know, I mean this is what we're dealing with here, internationally, you know, we've, we've already uncovered erm you know, on this radio program and through our site in numerous paedophile rings that are operating at highest levels of government and erm, you know one of the things that you bring up as well is that you talk about er, David Payne's paedophile allegations

Brian: Well there was...the British media has commented on the case as it's gone along but one, notably one piece of information in the British media has never talked about is erm, there was some er witness statements thirteen days after Madeleine disappeared in England, erm, two doctors who were friends of the McCanns went to Leicester police station to make a report about er an earlier vacation in 2005 in the Spanish island of Majorca erm, now on that vacation there was the two witnesses er, the Paynes and the McCanns and erm, there was a conversation between Gerry McCann and David Payne er that was er that was overheard by these two witnesses and er, it was highly inappropriate discussion which they deemed to be sexual and talking about Madeleine

Paul: This was after her death'

Brian: No, this was in 2005. The doctors were concerned er they had, they had concerns about this holiday that they'd be on in 2005 er and she disappeared in 07 so this was two years before she disappeared and so this inappropriate discussion erm, you know, they went to, naturally went to the police to erm, explain their experience back in 2005. Now that information....

Paul: They filed a police report'

Brian: They filed a police report. Now that information was deliberately withheld by Leicester police and not handed to Portuguese investigators for almost six months

Paul: Jeez

Brian: they didn't send it until October the 24th and er, by that time the chief inspector had been pulled off the case.

Paul: Jeez...so let me ask you a question. These two individuals okay, that we're talking about, what happened to them'

Brian: Er, do you mean the witnesses or'

Paul: yeah, the two witnesses

Brian: Er, they've never been heard of, I mean we know from the police files that they made that statement and erm, I don't think they've been interviewed by anybody. Er, my, my, my sort of guess is that the British media have been gagged on that aspect, a bit like the Hollie Greig case. I think that, you know, talking about the er, Payne/McCann allegations in Majorca is taboo and I think that's the aspect the McCanns have tried to get Goncalo Amaral's book injuncted ['] on that basis.

Paul: Okay...so bottom line, let me ...we're going to have to take another break here real quick and erm, what I'd like you to do is if you are around my website is, you'll see there's a nice little green band there for the surge ex pro... [snipped]

Okay...so, this is, this is the question alright. Were these individuals, this is what we've found in like....let me give you another example in Jon Banay case. They were actually putting Jon Banay in this beauty pageant and er, there's been a lot of er, evidence that seem to point, you know, that these childhood beauty pageants can also be used to er, erm, prostitute children, you know, for the use of, of paedophile elite and er, were they involved with anything like that with Madeleine'

Brian: Ermmm....I don't, I don't see any evidence of that whatsoever, erm, you know, I've got to be honest there erm, in fact...in fact..

Paul: We've got a caller here....Go ahead you're on the air. Hello' Hello, you're on the air. I'm sorry, go ahead.

Brian: Yeah, erm, I was going to say and I stress this point, that, the actual evidence that we see and all the hearsay from the friends and neighbours of the McCanns is that they were, you know, typical loving parents of, you know, three young children so the bizarre thing is if they were so security conscious, so er, caring towards the children you know, why did they leave them every night' So there's a clear conflict anyway erm....

Paul: We're going to take a call here...I'm, I'm sorry...are you there' Are you there' Sorry, go ahead. Are you there'

Yeah, hi, I'm here.

Paul: My apologies, we're just er...people are hanging up before we get to them. But this is such an interesting topic I mean, no honestly, I want to hear you talk about it so ...if you'd like to call in the number's [number delted] and let Brian have the chance to finish his statement and we'll get you on the air...okay I'm sorry...

Brian: Yeah, erm, it's just a mystery all round really and er and it's just been covered up in a similar way to you know...you've had Anne Greig and Stuart Usher on your show recently and so you know the er...the way that the er British establishment can cover these things up. And no doubt this occurred with the Madeleine case. Now I think in the Hollie Greig case they were able to stop a wildfire by fanning the flames before they got too big erm, but in the Madeleine case because of its international erm, publicity and the nature of the disappearance they weren't, they weren't able to suppress the stories so what happened, instead of suppression erm, there was a sustained campaign of propaganda and so they brought in a guy who use to work for the British government called Clarence Mitchell who is a er, he worked for the Media Monitoring Unit in the government which is basically the governments propaganda department and he was brought in er, within days of the disappearance and erm, he had a clear hand in manipulating the British press to produce stories that were ostensibly were just that ' propaganda, just in favour of the McCanns

Paul: He's a spin doctor

Brian: He's a spin doctor, yeah.

Paul: Who pays for this guy'

Brian: Well, initially he was paid for by the tax payer because he was seconded to the McCanns from the Foreign Office so he was actually, initially employed by the British Foreign Office to go around as, as, you know, their PR man.

Paul: mmhmm...so what we're talking about here is the government, the British Government actually got involved in er, suppressing the story

Brian: Correct. Yes.

Paul: We've got other allegations out there right now of er, paedophilia in er, you know, in the highest levels of British government don't we'

Brian: It would appear so, yes. There's a lot of stories, I read a story about Mike James recently er, looked very controversial

Paul: Can you tell us a little bit about it'

Brian: What ' Mike James' story'

Paul: ummhmmm...you know, let's talk about some of the other things that are going on right now. A lot of my listeners are you know, throughout the world and we don't erm...we don't ...

Brian: Sure. Well, the Hollie one...well obviously the one that's the topic right now is the Hollie Greig story, I've devoted six pages to that in the book as well and erm, you know, that is just an atrocious, an appalling case of erm, you know, these lawyers and especially, what is it, the Lord Advocate of Scotland erm, you know, covering up a story which is erm in the public interest. What I'd like to know is why these people don't rebut these allegations and they always feel that they have to cover them up.

Paul: Well, it's interesting you say that because I just published an article today where the sheriff of Scotland came out and er got a gag order against Robert Green. Now they're calling Robert Green who was a journalist, they're calling him like an attorney advocate, now the guy doesn't practise law he just writes articles. So they're trying to turn this into you know...I don't know...I honestly...to me the more you cover something up the more people are gonna want...are going to ask questions. I mean, that's pretty much your experience isn't it Brian'

Brian: That's always the way, I mean I've experienced that here and in the USA as well. I mean, it's erm, you know, there's, there's...this goes on in every country of the world I'm afraid and it's seems that the more powerful the more rich these people are they can manipulate the lawyers to gag people and silence them. And erm, you know, that's the kind of an attitude that we thought that was prevalent say in Russia in the cold war days but this is happening in Britain which is supposed to be a free Western democracy....er...you know, we know, we know it's not. And we don't want that attitude, we need openness, we need to be able to talk about these things.

Paul: Well here's a theory, you know, I'll throw this at yer. I think that the reason why this case has gotten so much publicity is simply it is a distraction erm, it's been a distraction. Not only...it serves two purposes...one covers up what the ...for the er, you know...for the McCanns but I think the second purpose is that, you know, there's gotta be a channel for emotion and for energy and er, when the government gives us er a release like in this case, you know, we can all spend money and donate money to the McCann fund you know, and we can go out and hang up posters looking for her...well, that's, that's ..all that is, is just a way for them to siphon off the energy that really, really need to be devoted towards exposing these people. Any comments on that'

Brian: Well the fund is certainly a mystery because the McCanns are directors of the fund, they've also got er Gerry's brother John who is the chairman of it and then you've got erm, Kate's uncle Brian, he's also a director. So you've got four family members on the board of directors there, you've also got Ed Smethurst, he's a 30 year Free Mason er, who's also ....er...now the interesting thing is, the company, the law firm that set up the fund is probably Britain's, one of the er largest law firms representing Free Masons and Free Masons charities. Now they don't advertise them on their website. I found that through considerable research.

Paul: Interesting. So we're talking that the Free Masons are behind funding this er McCann fund'

Brian: Erm, well you know, the, the Bates Wells and Braithwaite law firm behind the Madeleine fund they're also the lawyers for the Grand Charity which is Britain's largest Free Masons charity so ...yeah, there's a clear business connection between a lot of Free Masonry involvement and the McCann ...er...the Madeleine fund.

Paul: Okay, so we're going to take one more break here and er ...[snipped]

We've got a few minutes left here and er...Brian, I am definitely going to have you back on this show and er...go ahead...you've got three minutes ...what else would you like to tell us'

Brian: Yeah, I'd like to just say a few words for the inspector Goncalo Amaral who erm, was as I say, he was pulled off the case and even Gordon Brown knew about that before he was fired. Erm, the, erm, inspector wrote a book called 'The Truth in the Lie' which was a best seller in Portugal where he, you know, he told us about some of the hidden details of the case. And in September of last year the McCanns filed an injunction in Portugal to have this inspector's book er banned from sale, and after the hearing in January and February of this year the judge actually er held a decision and the book is banned. His book, his opinions about his involvement in the police case and the McCanns have said they wanted the book banned because he is saying that she er Madeleine is dead and therefore people won't look for her if they believed she's dead. Erm, one of my websites I have an opinion poll of a 5,000 documented people where two out of three people believe she's dead anyway. So you know, it's er

Paul: they're going to do everything they can to suppress the truth, that's what this sounds like to me.

Brian: yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

Paul: Everything. And the thing is it's not only them, it's the er British government

Brian: That's right

Paul: Once again, this is a huge outrage, there's things we can do and erm, we'll talk about that, first thing we need to do we need to get your article out er, get the article published and probably a series of articles and also promote your book so people can read this and er

Brian: Thank you

Paul:...there's other things we can do...one of the things I..we can also do is create a petition for people to sign, demanding that... you know... these things er come out and demanding a criminal investigation into these things. I understand that erm, you know... I'm not... I personally couldn't care less about what people can do or what they want to do as far as threats and things like that ..erm, but I'm sure you've had some of that. Give me some idea of what kind of harassment you've had to put up with just to get this information out there.

Brian: Well I've been covering the case for three years now with my websites and I've had a lot of, I mean, I can vouch for a lot of say hate mail. You know, there's a lot of people who they don't want you to investigate this stuff you know, and you've got to query why would random people not be wanting you to investigate. You know, why was erm, Martin Smith the guy who saw a man that in, he later pronounced he's 80% sure he saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine in another part of the town late...on that night and er, you know, he hadn't come forward and er, somebody connected with the Madeleine fund contacted Martin Smith months after this appearance. You know, why are these witnesses being tampered with'

Paul: Yeah, so what we end up with is ...when he saw, saw the dad carrying Madeleine was she awake' Was she alive' I mean did he say anything about that at all'

Brian: Well in his testimony he initially told police he'd saw a man carrying a girl about ten to ten at night which was ten minutes before Kate supposedly alerted to say she'd disappeared and erm, you know, months later when Martin Smith saw Gerry disembarking off the plane carrying his son, that jogged his memory and he said 'that was the man that I saw!' He claims he's 80% sure in the police files

Paul: Wow. Well we, we sure appreciate you being on the air, we're gonna start er, helping you with the publicity on this and er...give us one more ..give us your web address one more time so people can buy this book.

Brian: Okay, yes, it's fakedabduction.com and er, the book is on sale.

Paul: Awesome. Well it was great having yer and er obviously I'm going to commit you to appearing again on the show so we can talk about this again in a little more detail.

Brian: yeah, I'd like to do that, thank you.

Paul: And er ... no problem...and er again this is er Steve Marsden who is the author of the book and the title of the book is...go ahead, it's all you...

Brian: Faked Abduction

Paul: Faked Abduction and the website you can go to get this book is ...

Brian: fakedabduction.com

Paul: fakedabduction.com, I'll have that in the articles. So thank you very much for coming on the show and er I'm going wrap things up over the next ten minutes. Okay.

Brian: Okay. Appreciate it

Paul: thanks, bye.

Paul: So here we have, obviously there's quite a bit of evidence here that is not being presented or has not come out in the public and you know, you've gotta...it's just a huge conspiracy and I wonder or not anything, any foul play took place here. There surely is enough evidence here for at least an inquest in Great Britain. Er we have the potential for fraud; we have the potential for erm, all kinds of bad things that er could be here. I mean, we're talking about er five million dollars erm, that's been raised for er...or five million pounds, I'm not sure which one, but er the point is, that's a ton of money er, I think some people deserve some accountability I mean, what have they done with this money' Where's it gone' Where did they spend it on' The other question is, why don' we have statements from the other children or other witnesses, why haven't they been interviewed' Why has er testimony been suppressed' The example is the gentleman who saw er reportedly saw erm the father of er Maddie carrying her around at the time she supposedly disappeared.

Er, we've got two cadaver dog...er one cadaver sniffing dog that alerted in the home, we've got one blood sniffing dog that alerted in the home, we've got er reportedly they detected blood spray pattern that would be consistent with some type of damage to the larynx or to the throat. Er, there's just tons of evidence there. And you know, Great Britain is ....[sighs] this is just another connection in the, you know, the big picture which is..I've been trying to convey on this show which is that we are...we've been literally taken by these satanic paedophiles and these people are Satanists. No one that worships God would do these kinds of things, would be involved in these kind of things er that we're seeing, what my colleague Greig, like what we're seeing with some of these other people that are out there and...we need your help. I mean, there's two petitions right no on my website that I need you to sign er, one has to deal with Hollie Greig and erm Mr Green, the journalist who just got gagged by the er sheriff who was one of the alleged abusers and er, the second one has to deal with editor Joseph Cannon in Utah here in the United States. Er Mr Cannon sat on a paedophile story er, a leading republican that just resigned from the Utah state house er, came out and admitted that he was naked in the hot tub with a 15 year old girl, who was 15 at the time. We don't know if she was 15 and I don't know if in fact their relationship started before that. We don't know. All we know is what they report and that was she was 15 at the time and that this allegedly happened. This poor girl is being [demonised '] by the Utah media right now, they're just beating her up because she came forward. And er, literally she has been successful in ending this er paedophile's career. We're talking an individual that is in one of the highest elected offices within the state of Utah.

Now as a Mormon, I can't tell yer how deeply offended I am that er this is being treated the way it is. You don't go after victims. You don't persecute people because they tell you er that someone in authority is doing things that are just egregious and I think this is going to turn into bad things, other bad things, other bad things are gonna come out because, you see, once one person has the courage to come out and tell a story then others will follow.

And already there's reports of another girl in Utah that was also er involved with this guy. And normally a paedophile will have anywhere between 30 to 40 victims for every one they get caught with.

Now getting back to Maddie, we have two witnesses that heard her dad, her father, with another gentleman talking about er sexual relationships with this little girl. And er, this is just, this is just unbelievable that this is being suppressed. And this book is probably one of the things, one of the greatest things this gentleman's done a ton of research and I really invite you to go through the articles that I'm going to be publishing over the next couple of days about this and I want you to take a look at this book, you know, acquiring it er, we need to support people like this. And er, we also need to support any efforts to bring justice to our children.

And with that said, erm, I wish you the best my friends. Remember God's in charge, not these people. These people are evil and evil has its bounds and limited in what it can do. God doesn't have any limitations. And just remember that and just keep everybody in your prayers, keep us in your prayers, keep Brian in your prayers and er, I promise you I'll do the same and with God's help we will not only expose these individuals but we'll drive them back into the darkness where they belong.


TTW4 INTERVIEWS BRIAN JOHNSON

MCCANN UNRAVEL 20 MARCH 2010

Today I was given the opportunity to ask Steve some direct questions concerning his new book. With reconciliation and explanation very much in mind he gave me this interview which I now publish.

1. What made you write the book'

The forums debating Madeleine's disappearance had dwindled in terms of numbers of those seriously interested in Madeleine's demise. More blogs were springing up to debate the debaters rather than the actual case. I had always been interested in the forensic aspects of the case and tussling with those more interested in forum disruption did not interest me at all. After I called it a day in the forums I thought I'd concentrate on writing a book. Around that time (September/October), Amaral's book was in limbo and I had exhausted negotiations on publishing that book in English out here in the USA. The publisher appeared to dawdle too long and we all know what happened after that. The prospect of publishing an English "Truth of the Lie" in the USA was all but gone. Faked Abduction was an idea that grew out of the prospect of there being no English book that would tell the story from an unbiased and propaganda free platform. With no "Truth of the Lie" in English it seemed the logical thing to do.



2. Why the long delay' Wasn't it supposed to come out in January'



Initially, my research said that most paperbacks of this type were typically in the region of 300-320 pages. Amaral's book was quite a "thin" 200 or so pages. I wanted more information than his book because a lot of time had passed since his book came out in the summer of 2008. We knew more information than Goncalo was able to put in his book and so I knew 300 or so pages would be more appropriate. Then with Christmas looming, it is always a good idea to try to release a product in advance of that season. However, the pressure of writing it to reach a seasonal deadline was crazy. I wanted a decent product, not a rush job. January seemed a better prospect but then a few other technical and logistical problems came up. The book-cover is a deep blue and was something I designed as an RGB image. Converting to CMYK for a printer meant those nice blue tones were lost. Anyone in the print industry would know that blue is a nightmare to deal with but all my graphic work is online so I didn't know this was a problem until late in the day. I eventually sorted this out and in the midst of it all, we had the Amaral trial in Lisbon. It seemed silly to not mention the outcome of this in the book so this was another reason to hold off for a few weeks. Also, like Amaral, I am subject to an illegal injunction in a lawsuit here in the USA. That was another distraction.



3. Why are some saying you plagiarised Amaral's book'



I have no idea. It would seem that the instigator of this was one Mr. Tony Bennett. In his February Madeleine Foundation newsletter, he recommended that nobody should buy Faked Abduction because he "learned" that it was a double-plagiarism of a work by a blogger called Anna (whatever a double-plagiarism means!). As nobody knew what my book was about, it is remarkable that Mr. Bennett, Antonella Lazzeri (writing in the Sun) and Clarence Mitchell all seemed to know its content before it was released. Mitchell we already know about but why the Madeleine Foundation circulated erroneous information and a recommendation not to buy it is something people should be asking them. This was a scurrilous and unfounded attack and probably stems from an aborted business deal I had proposed to Mr. Bennett in 2009 when I explored printing his 60-Reasons book in the USA where he wanted a 20% royalty paid directly to him instead of the Madeleine Foundation.



4. How did you choose what to put in and what to leave out'



This was tricky. In the end, my 320 pages were exceeded by over 300 more pages. I ended up removing 4 chapters consisting of 90 pages only days before printing and it ended up at 526 pages. I had to include the two well known controversies - Majorca 2005 and Mrs. Fenn's testimony - but also the foundation story of the abduction itself; the flawed jemmied shutter story. The dog evidence was also necessary but there are no references to "noise" - the sightings and other distractions that led the police on wild goose chases. The five photographs was always a big talking point and in terms of the Last Photo, I used some new software to analyse the image and the controversial findings are in the book. There are numerous references to many facts in the case but they are introduced as and when they needed to be cross referenced by other topics. There is a lot of indexing within the book and this took considerable time in the preparation of the final draft. Writing is one thing but styling and completing a book is a time consuming job.



5. What are you hoping for the book'



A lot of bloggers and serious forum posters have invested a lot of time and effort in this case because we have all showed concerns for justice in the past three years. I recognise them in the book and take my hat off to all the hours they have contributed to the cause. Without such great amateur support we would not be where we are today and the case would have melted away. We have all felt at times that the answer was just round the corner but it never has been. The massive smoke screen of propaganda has literally brainwashed a nation and had this case been in pre-Internet times, it would have faded away within weeks and been effectively covered up with hardly anyone batting an eyelid. The book is my own little contribution to justice and truth for Madeleine. I respect all the others out there doing their own bit in their own way and long may it continue. The repository websites...Pamalam's, McCannFiles, Joana Morais' blog etc. - they all get a mention and if the book can drive more traffic to them and interest a whole new set of people in reading about the case then great. Personally I think the Madeleine coverage on the Internet is analogous to Operation Desert Storm and its aerial bombardment campaign. As we saw in that military battle, Desert Storm eventually had to be conquered by troops on the ground to win the war and in this respect I think a book can do a job that the Internet cannot. Many people still want to read about this case in book form because they don't have time to sit in front of a computer for hours. As the first English book to properly question the abduction, I hope it revitalises interest in this massive government cover up.



6. Will there be any translations'



There are some people assisting or that have offered assistance with translations to Portuguese, German, Dutch and French. It would be nice to have those books printed locally in Europe to lower postage costs but they may have to be printed here in their respective languages. It depends on the amount of interest. I know Amaral's book sold well in Portugal and France but it didn't do much in Germany. It is always difficult to know how many books to print but there is scope to do all those four languages just mentioned.



7. Do you think the case will ever be solved'



I think the Madeleine case has the same chance of being solved as Dr. Kelly's murder and the real perpetrators of Omagh being brought to justice. In other words, very little chance. The corrupt nature of the British Establishment cover up is not something that is going to alter overnight because it is endemic. One has only to look at the Hollie Greig case to see how insidious these elite people are who cover their criminal tracks. I think the best thing we can hope for is to alert the general populace to the reality of the situation and try and undo a lot of the brainwashing - done so effectively by state owned or state manipulated press and media. As long as Joe Public believes the Team McCann propaganda it will be difficult to make a breakthrough. It really is a concern that Totalitarian Britain is now well on the way to being a Marxist regime and I'm sure we'll see a few more auto-erotic asphyxiations (a trademark MI5/MI6 assassination technique). It is quite alarming that Tony Blair and Gordon Brown have both been accused by many of being paedophiles and yet neither have taken action to sue the accusers. One thing is certain: It is way past the time that that those Scottish paedophile allegations were dealt with properly once and for all. Blair, Brown Lord Robertson, Elish Angiolini, Sheriff Buchanan et al need to front up to some serious allegations.


The Book Contents
Here is the chapter listing:

British Establishment Cover-ups
Maddie: A Name the Media Invented
The Police Conclusions
How the Story Unfolded
Experts in Propaganda
The Locations and People
A Neighbor Hears Crying
An Obsession with Lawyers
The Five Photographs
Payne & McCann Allegations
Dogs Don't Lie
The Weekend of June 9 ' 10
McCanns on the Oprah Show
Letter to the Madeleine Fund
Gerry's Blogs and Kate's Diary
The Official Fund
The Arguido Interviews
Dealing with a Corpse
Flaws in Goncalo Amaral's thesis
Interesting Details from the Files
The Author's Conclusions

APPENDICES

Appendix A: Timeline 2007-2010
Appendix B: Timeline May 3, 2007
Appendix C: Tavares Almeida's Report
Appendix D: Mark Harrison's Report
Appendix E: Martin Grime's Profile
Appendix F: Documentaries & Interviews
Appendix G: Kate Healy's Bible
Appendix H: Justice Hogg's Judgment

A few book Highlights:

Copious footnotes and cross references to verify sources
Correspondence from Peter McCann of Castle Craig about his relationship with Gerry McCann
The statements deliberately held back from the Portuguese police by Leicester Constabulary
The blatant discrepancies in the Tapas Nine witness statements
Jane Tanner's conflicting statements
Did Kate falsify legal documents'
Where did Goncalo Amaral go wrong'
Correspondence from the Masonic law firm entrusted with setting up Madeleine's Fund
Gordon Brown's wife and the fellow Bristol University graduate behind the Madeleine Fund
Information about other appalling British Establishment cover ups including Dunblane, Omagh and the recent shock Hollie Greig case

But remember'

According to Clarence Mitchell in the Sun newspaper on January 27, 2010, all the allegations in Faked Abduction are entirely untrue.

Find out for yourself

[Acknowledgement: .pamalam at gerrymccannsblog]

Gerry and Kate McCann 10th Anniversary Interview with Fiona Bruce - 3rd May 2017

Transcript:

Kate McCann - KM
Gerry McCann - GM
Interviewer - Fiona Bruce - FB

FB: Kate and Gerry, first of all, thank you very much for doing this interview. This is a very difficult time of year and it's the 10-year anniversary, obviously an anniversary you hoped you would never see.

KM: Yeah I mean I never thought we'd still be in this situation, so far along the line. It's a huge amount of time. In some ways it feels like it was only a few weeks ago, in other times it has felt really long. But it's a hard marker of time.

FB: And you've referred to it on your website as "stolen time"?

KM: Oh yeah, I mean it's time we should have had with Madeleine. We should have been a family of five for all that time. And yeah, it just feels stolen.

FB: And you can never have imagined, 10 years ago, that you would still be in this situation?

GM: I think the situation is that we tried everything in our power to not have a long protracted missing person case like this. It's devastating and we really threw ourselves into trying to do everything we could to help find her. It looks like that hasn't worked yet. But you know we are still looking forward, I think that's the most important thing - we still hope.

FB: And how are you doing as a family? The pair of you?

GM: I think we're doing a new normality, really, particularly over probably the last - and it seems like a long time saying it - but over the last five years. Since the Metropolitan Police actually started their investigation, it has taken a huge pressure off us, individually and as a family.

FB: Because before that you were trying to fight the case yourselves, trying to encourage the police to look for Madeleine, get the Portuguese police involved?

GM: Yeah I think the key thing was - and I suppose the injustice of it - was that after the initial Portuguese investigation closed, essentially, no-one, no-one else was actually doing anything pro-actively to try and find Madeleine. And I think every parent could understand that what you want and what we have aspired to is to have all the reasonable lines of enquiry followed to a logical conclusion as far as you can do that, and that was incredibly frustrating.

FB: You talked at the time about what a blow that was?

GM: It was terrible, it was horrible, and you know as much as we tried and (were) fortunate to have had so many donations into Madeleine's fund and to use that money to try and investigate, your hands are tied, you don't have the powers that law enforcement have.

FB: So how much of a difference has it made. So for the last five years, the police have actively been investigating?

KM: Huge

GM: Absolutely huge, I mean I can't emphasise enough just what a massive burden that has lifted from us, and those around us, and also knowing that the lines of investigation have been prosecuted. I know the Assistant Commissioner, Mr (Mark) Rowley, spoke during the week, but you know a lot of those lines have been taken to a conclusion and that's almost as important as finding who's actually responsible but knowing that those lines have been shut down.

FB: And the police have talked about one significant lead they are still pursuing, can you tell me anything about that?

GM: The investigation is in the hands of the Metropolitan Police, who clearly have on-going inquires and from our perspective that's the important thing.

KM: They've managed to pull so much together and sift through so much information, so now we do seem to be on just several lines of enquiry rather than tens/hundreds.

FB: And there are four officers working on it full-time. You know there have been criticisms that the police shouldn't be spending so much money, still, so many years on, on this case, what would you say to that?

GM: I think some of that criticism is really quite unfair actually, because I know it's a single missing child, but there are millions of British tourists that go to the Algarve, year-on-year, and essentially you've got a British subject who was the subject of a crime and there were other crimes that came to light following Madeleine's abduction, that involved British tourists so I think prosecuting it to a reasonable end is what you would expect.

FB: But of course it doesn't happen, sadly there are so many children that go missing and the resources are not deployed on their cases?

GM: Others within law enforcement have made it very clear, this type of stranger abduction is exceptionally rare actually and we need to put it into perspective and it's partly why Madeleine's case is attracting so much attention, thrown in with many other ingredients, but this type of abduction is exceptionally rare.

FB: One of the police officers in Portugal has been a thorn in your side for many years, he was thrown off the investigation but then he wrote a book, presented a documentary, presenting of you of what happened to Madeleine which implicates you, and you fought it through the courts. At the moment you've lost and he's won, is this the end for you now, are you going to continue to fight him?

GM: I think the short answer is we have to because the last judgment I think is terrible. So we will be appealing. We haven't launched that yet, but it will be going to the European courts. I think it's also important to say that when we lodged the action was eight years ago and the circumstances were very different where we felt there was real damage being done to the search for Madeleine at that time, particularly in Portugal.

FB: Because he was effectively suggesting that you were involved?

GM: I think, you know, what people really need to realise though is, you know, as Assistant Commissioner Rowley has said again this week, and the Portuguese have said in the final report - have said there's no evidence that Madeleine is dead and the prosecutor has said there's no evidence that we were involved in any crime and really that's - saying anything opposite isn't justice, it's not justice for Madeleine.

KM: I mean I find it all incomprehensible to be honest, it has been very upsetting, and it has caused a lot of frustration and anger which is a real negative emotion, and I think we just need to channel that and I just have to hope that in the long run that justice will prevail, and all will be well.

GM: And I think it's also important for us personally, but for the rest of the family as well.

FB: For your children?

GM: Yeah and our wider family, both parents, brothers and sisters etc, so - you know - we've got to challenge it, and we will do.

FB: The other thing that struck me when I was looking through various internet search engines before I did this interview was quite how much cruel, distressing, horribly tasteless commentary there is out there about you, about Madeleine. People giving their opinions about what they think happened, even though they don't know you. They were nowhere near, they can't possibly know. It's so hurtful for you, that that is out there - and for your children - how do you deal with that?

KM: I think the whole social media has got huge pros, but huge cons. On the downside, and all that's been written... I guess we protect ourselves really. We don't go there to be honest. We are aware of things that get said because people alert us to them. I guess our worry is for our children.

FB: Of course, because they are now 12, they are at an age where social media becomes increasingly important?

GM: I don't want to dwell on the negative aspects too long, but I think in this era of "fake news" it is extremely topical and I think people just need to think twice before what they write and the effects it has. Certainly I know ourselves with our own experience, both in the mainstream media and also on the internet, we just say I am not going to believe that until I see evidence of it. I'm sure it is a very small minority of people who spend their time doing it, but it has totally inhibited what we do. Personally, we don't use social media, although we have used it in Madeleine's campaign. But for our twins who are growing up in an era where mobile technology is used all the time, we don't want them not to be able to use it in the same way that their peers do.

FB: How do you protect them?

GM: We had some excellent advice early on. We have been as open with them as we can. We have told them about things and that people are writing things that are simply just untrue and they need to be aware of that. They're not really at the age where they are on the internet and other sites, but they're coming to that stage. They're in closed groups with their friends etc and that's important.

KM: I think we've tried to educate them a little bit as well because obviously it's not just us that has fallen victim to the downside of social media.

FB: Does it shock you? Because it has shocked me, certainly a little, the things that people say.

KM: I think it has been shocking... that aspect of human nature that I hadn't really encountered before. Because I think it's so far from how you would behave or people that you know would behave. It's been striking and quite hard really to get your head round. Because why would somebody write that? Why would somebody add to someone's upset - why would someone in a position of ignorance do something like that?

GM: I think we've seen the worst and the best of human nature. And our personal experience, rather than on the internet, has been overwhelmingly seeing the better side of human nature. And I think we need to remember that actually. We've had fantastic support over the last 10 years. And because there's a lot of media attention now around the 10th anniversary, we are starting to see that again as well.

KM: I think that's true. I think because things like social media, or (Goncalo) Amaral or whatever, because it's so awful and upsetting, it does kind of sometimes stand out more, it becomes more of a talking point. Whereas actually the main thing that we have experienced is the goodness of people and the support that we have had over 10 years, which hasn't wavered in all that time.

FB: How different is your life now? When you have a child, you consciously or subconsciously imagine your future and the future of that child. How different is your life now to that what you must have imagined all those years ago?

GM: I think before Madeleine was taken, we felt we had managed to achieve our little perfect nuclear family of five. And we had that for a short period and I suppose, almost the same way as if your child becomes ill or seriously ill, or has died, like many other families have suffered... then your vision is altered and you have to adapt. And I think that's a theme that speaking to other people who have gone through terribly traumatic processes with children and other loved ones, that is something that gradually happens, and you adapt and you have a new normality. And unfortunately for us a new normality is a family-of-four. But we have adapted and that's important. The last five years in particular has allowed us to really properly devote time to looking after the twins and ourselves and of course carrying on with our work. At some point you've got to realise that time is not frozen and I think both of us realise that we owed it to the twins to make sure that their life is as fulfilling as they deserve, and we have certainly tried our best to achieve that.

FB: On the face of it, you appear to have stayed so strong as a family unit. I just wonder how you have managed to do that? It's so easy to blame each other when a cataclysm befalls a family. That's such as easy trap to fall into.

KM: I don't think there has ever been any blame, fortunately. What people do say is that you don't realise how strong you are until you have no option. And I think that's very true. Obviously massive events like this cause a lot of reaction, a lot of trauma and upset. But ultimately you have to keep going - and especially when you have got other children involved. Some of that is subconscious I think - your mind and body just take over to a certain extent. But if you can't change something immediately, you have to go with it and do the best that you can. And I think that's what we have tried to do. As Gerry said, one of our goals - obviously ultimately finding Madeleine - was to ensure that Sean and Amelie have a very normal, happy and fulfilling life and we'll do everything that we can to ensure that.

FB: Life for you has changed in different ways Kate. You were a GP. You stopped working, you haven't gone back to full-time work. I assume the idea of someone else looking after your children seemed unthinkable after what happened - you just needed to be with the children and be there?

KM: Certainly initially, yes absolutely. The kids weren't even in school, I wanted to be there, I didn't want to let them out of my sight - there was obviously a lot going on, a lot of campaign work, a lot of emotion. I am actually back at work now. I am doing something different to what I was doing.

FB: What are you doing now?

KM: I am back into medicine but a different area to my general practice. So that obviously takes up some time - and again that was a big step to re-establish as normal a life as possible. Life's busy. I think in some ways, whether it's our personality or whether it's a coping strategy but sometimes it's almost a little bit too frenetic, but it keeps us going. I think we don't dwell too much on things unnecessarily so I think that's probably a self-protective thing there as well. We do have a very full life and as normal as we can make it.

FB: And how much do you make Madeleine a part of it, do you talk about Madeleine, is she a name that crops up every day? How do you manage that?

GM: I mean she's always still part of our life, there's photographs all round the house, this time of year, then we can't even have conversations that doesn't involve it, kids know we're doing the interview today, the anniversary is coming up, so she is still part of it.

KM: I think every kind of event that we do, whether it be a birthday or a family occasion or even an achievement or something that is kind of when you really feel her absence. It's slightly different to how it was in the early days, when everything we were doing was to find Madeleine, whereas now we are having to get on and live a life as well, but its not like any day she's not there, if you know what I mean.

FB: And last time we talked, you told me how you were still buying birthday presents and Christmas presents for Madeleine. With 10 years now, are you still doing that?

KM: I still do that yeah. You couldn't not.

FB: So you go around the shops and you think, Madeleine would have been this age now, and what would she want?

KM: I do, I do, that's it. I obviously have to think about what age she is and something that, whenever we find her, will still be appropriate so there's a lot of thought goes into it. But I couldn't not, you know, she's still our daughter, she'll always be our daughter.

GM: Because Kate does all the present-buying.

KM: I do all the present buying, and yep, they'll be another one coming up - you know - in the next few weeks.

FB: And Madeleine would be how old?

GM: Just coming up to 14.

FB: And this anniversary, how will you get through that day?

KM: I think like I put in my message on the website, every day is another day, without Madeleine. I think it's just that number, that 10-year mark, which makes it more significant I think - that is a reminder of how much time has gone by and obviously 10's a big number. I think we'll get by as we have any other year really, we'll be surrounded by family and friends, you know, obviously we'll be there remembering Madeleine, as we always have.

GM: I think the day and the poignancy of it, that we don't tend to go back to the time, because it's so draining but inevitably on anniversaries and her birthday they are by far the hardest days, by far.

KM: I think it is important though because despite how difficult these days are, just keeping in mind actually how much progress we have made and you know nothing's ever going to be quick enough from our point of view but the last five years, we've come a long way and there is progress and there are some very credible lines of enquiry that the police are working on and whilst there's no evidence to give us any negative news, you know, that hope is still there.

FB: It really is there in your hearts, the hope that one day you'll be reunited with your daughter?

GM: No parent is going to give up on their child, unless they know for certain their child is dead, and we just don't have any evidence.

KM: My hope for Madeleine being out there is no less than it was almost 10 years ago, I mean apart from those first 48 hours nothing has actually changed since then, I mean - I think the difficult thing has always been how will we find her because you're relying on the police doing everything they can, and you're relying on somebody with information coming forward.

GM: I think that that is so important, that everyone thinks what could have happened, but some of the scenarios with other people that have been abducted and kept, is just so unbelievable that you think 'how could that have happened' and that is probably what is going to happen with Madeleine's case as well, that people will go 'that's incredible, how did that happen - we just don't know'.

KM: I think Assistant Commissioner Rowley underlined that last week: that you can't apply normal logic to someone who commits a crime like this - because you try and think, 'well, surely if they'd have done that, they'd done that and therefore' - but you can't.

FB: But you must also look at cases, in the case of Ben Needham who went missing in Greece, decades past and even now it's not entirely resolved, it's thought that he died very soon after he left the house but it's not known.

GM: That's interesting though you know, the people who've got the most experience are the National Centre for Missing and Exploited Children in the United States, and one of the earliest things that stuck with me ever since then is the younger that at the time a child is taken, the more likely they've been taken to be kept, and that could equally apply to Ben Needham who was younger than Madeleine so that's something we have to factor in actually.

FB: Which in one way could be a relief, but in another way is an unconscionable thought for you?

GM: It is, and it's 10 years, and how much has she changed and where would she be now, so, but I think the key thing is is to find Madeleine, she's still alive, recognise who she is, or we need to find the person or the people responsible for taking her.

FB: You must have imagined over the years - if you saw her, do you know what you'd say to her, how your lives would change?

KM: Yeah I think I try not to go there too often to be honest it's one of those real bitter-sweet kind of thoughts, yeah, I mean, I can't imagine, 10 years is a long time, but ultimately we're mum and dad, she's our daughter, she's got a brother and sister, grandparents and lots of family and friends you know.

So it would be absolutely fine, it would be - well - it would be beyond words really. We'll cope with anything.

FB: Now, I know doing this interview was something you thought long and hard about, not something you particularly want to do, certainly not something you were looking forward to, what do you hope by doing an interview like this, what do you hope people will hear, what's the message you want to get out?

GM: I think, that there is still hope really, there isn't a new appeal, most of the media that we've done in the previous years is usually around that - so this is unusual. So, we are marking the anniversary. I think it's been good for the general public to hear police say there's no evidence that she's dead, and that there is still an active investigation, and there is still hope. So certainly from my point of view, somebody knows what's happened.

KM: I think you know we've had so many supporters who, I say, are still with us, people that we don't know who are still there and I guess I just want them to be reassured that there is progress being made. It might not be as quick as we want, but there's real progress being made and I think we need to take heart from that and we just have to go with the process and follow it through, whatever it takes for as long as it takes. But that there is still hope that we can find Madeleine.

FB: And if you do find Madeleine you'll be able to show her everything you did to try and find her. You never gave up?

KM: Absolutely. And how many people have been there willing her home.

FB: Is there anything else you would like to say?

KM: I think that is one of the positives, we were talking about the amount of money, and I used to feel really embarrassed when people used to say about the amount of money, but then you realise that other big cases, like Stephen Lawrence, these cases cost a huge amount of money. I guess the one thing, because you always do feel guilty as the parent of a missing child - that other families haven't had the publicity and the money, and I know there's reasons why that happened, but I guess the positive is that it has certainly brought the whole issue of missing children to the forefront and I think people have benefited in many different ways, really. Because of that. I know the charity Missing People has had a lot of attention, haven't they and all the families have come together I think it's just highlighted it, made people more aware, and those families have had more support from each other.

FB: A small silver lining. A tiny little sliver of one. Let's end it there.

[Interview transcript the Daily Mirror]

Gerry McCann at the IBA Madrid Annual Conference October 06, 2009

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Gerry McCann speaks at the IBA annual Conference


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Gerry McCann speaks at IBA Annual Conference, Madrid
Gerry McCann, father of missing British girl Madeleine McCann, was the keynote speaker at an IBA Annual Conference session of the Media Law Committee. He spoke about his relationship with the media and media law over the past two years.

Other high profile speakers at the session included Herman Croux, Roger Mann, Julian Porter, Kelli Sager, Paul Tweed and Adam Tudor.
The session was chaired by Mark Stephens and Nigel Tait.

Watch video
Read Gerry McCann’s speech

Nigel Tait, session co-chair: I’m delighted to introduce our panel of speakers to you, all of whom are acknowledged experts in the field of media law. First we have Herman Croux from Brussels in Belgium. Herman has acted as an adviser to the Belgian Government on constitutional and judicial reform and was an assistant professor at the University of Lervin. Herman is a regular speaker at international conferences and is chair of the Copyright and Entertainment Law Committee of the IBA. He has been involved in many notable cases including the constitutionality of The Protection of Journalists’ Sources Act before the Constitutional Court.

Then we have Doctor Roger Mann from Hamburg in Germany. Roger is a specialist in defamation litigation and acts for national magazine and newspaper publishers as well as for politicians and chief executive officers. Recently he’s acted for the Quant family and Susan Clatton, who are the main shareholders in BMW, over reports about an attempted blackmail.

From Toronto in Canada, I’m pleased to introduce Julian Porter QC who was called to the bar in 1964 and has practised litigation ever since. Julian has defended many of Canada’s leading writers, publishers and magazines and has acted for a large number of plaintiffs, suing newspapers and television stations. Julian has also produced two excellent conference papers which can be found on the IBA in Madrid conference website; one on the libel case brought by Richard Desmond against Tom Bauer and one dwelling on the deadpan humour of a British judge in the privacy case of Max Mosley against the News of the World.

Our next panellist is Kelli Sager from Los Angeles in California. Kelli is one of the only two lawyers in the United States to have been given the prestigious star ranking by the Chambers USA guide in the field of first amendment law and she represents the whole spectrum of media defendants including claims for libel, breach of privacy, reporters’ shield laws and internet law.

Next from Belfast and Dublin we have Paul Tweed. Paul has practised as a media lawyer for over 30 years and is well known in the United Kingdom for acting for high profile Hollywood personalities such as Britney Spears and Harrison Ford, who on one view instructed Paul to clear their names of false allegations, well, but on another view represent libel tourists who exploit claimant friendly UK libel laws. But one sure way of telling that Paul is an accomplished lawyer is the fact that he also represents the selfsame journalists and newspapers that he has sued on behalf of claimants, but not at the same time!

Also joining us today is Adam Tudor who successfully represented our key note speaker today, Gerry McCann, against the British press, and who can tell and talk about legal aspects of the case. My co-chairman today is one of the most well known lawyers in the United Kingdom. When I suggested to The Times newspaper that they write an article on what has happened to all the great characters in the British legal profession, we struggle to think of anyone other than Mark Stephens who could lay claim to such a title. Mark is a highly experienced lawyer, having won the case of Jameel and the Wall Street Journal, Europe, in the House of Lords for the defendant; a case on responsible journalism which most, if not all of us who practise in this area in the law, thought was a sure-fire winner for the claimant, but Mark nevertheless won for the defendant.

Our keynote speaker today is Mr Gerry McCann whose daughter, Madeleine, so tragically disappeared from a holiday apartment in Portugal in May 2007. Four months later, Madeleine’s parents were named as arguidos or persons of interest by the Portuguese police, sending the British media, in particular, into a frenzy of wild speculation and such speculation continued even beyond 21 July, 2008 when the Portuguese police lifted the McCann’s arguidos status and confirmed that there was no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Mr and Mrs McCann were involved in the disappearance of their daughter.

We so often hear, and rightly so, about the importance of a free press and our friends in the United States jealously guard the First Amendment protection given to the press and to their citizens, but seldom do we hear from those caught in the spotlight of publicity and I’m extremely grateful to Mr McCann for agreeing to be our keynote speaker today. Mr McCann will stay for questions but now I would like him to tell you his story. Thank you very much.



Gerry McCann: Thank you, Nigel, and I’m very glad to see that the title says I’m the keynote speaker because this certainly isn’t a lecture. I don’t have any specific knowledge of the law in the United Kingdom and any other jurisdiction although I’ve had more than a lifetime’s worth of dealing with lawyers over the last two and a half years. So I’m very much speaking regarding our own personal experience of the trauma that we’ve been caught up in.

I think Nigel’s already pointed out some of the main facts. We were on holiday on the 3 May 2007 when Madeleine was abducted from the apartment we were sleeping in. The world media really had descended on Praia de Luz within 24 hours and generally during those first two to three, four months or so, it was incredibly supportive and I’ll touch on that in some detail. Towards the end of August, in particular around the time when we were declared arguidos, then we had some of the most vile media reporting probably, certainly in the history of British journalism. And in 2008 we had several libel claims for defamation, and invasion of privacy. Later that year, as Nigel says, the file was closed and the Portuguese judiciary concluded that there is no evidence to support any of the allegations against us and we have continued and ongoing action within Portugal, which I’m not going to speak of very much because it’s still in the judicial process.

This is a brief outline of the talk, and I’ll probably speak for about 20 minutes. I want to first of all talk about decisions and whether to interact with the media or not. It’s not compulsory. I’ll talk about a strategy which we tried to employ. We’ll show some of the supportive press coverage and I will show you some of the front page headlines which caused us to take action and the results of that legal redress. And I’ll conclude with just a few minutes really about some thoughts and our experiences and recommendations or suggestions which is up to the legal profession and the judiciary whether they act on of course.

Interacting with the media

The first thing to say is that you know, it’s not compulsory; I think most people feel that when they’re caught up in a trauma, that they should interact with the media. Any parent in this audience will understand the complete devastation that we felt when we discovered Madeleine was gone, and particularly within the first few hours when the search around the vicinity of Praia de Luz found no trace of her, and we felt completely devastated. And in the early hours of the morning we phoned family and close friends to tell them of what happened. And I think the feeling of helplessness that Kate and I had was magnified by the distance of our loved ones and what they felt, that they couldn’t do anything for us. And actually several people independently contacted the media to tell them what had happened and in fact a very close friend was already distributing photographs of Madeleine to all the major news outlets in the early hours of the morning, which we didn’t know.

One thing we were discussing last night over dinner; it was interesting that the only news organisation that actually refused to publish the photograph was the BBC who came back saying ‘how do we know this is true, and who are you to distribute the photograph?’ Every other news outlet took it straight away and by the early hours of the morning it was already on our breakfast television in the UK. By the time Kate and I returned from the police station about 9 o’clock at night, there were approximately 200 journalists in Praia de Luz.

I can’t say for certain what factors were influencing this intense media interest within 24 hours of her abduction. I think the fact that it was a foreign child abducted on holiday certainly played a key part. The only other case we can think of in the United Kingdom was of Ben Needham, who was abducted in 1991 on a Greek island. And we don’t know of any other cases involving British children taken whilst on holiday, so that certainly played a part. The fact that we were doctors seemed to influence things and that this had happened to professional couple and I think Madeleine’s picture herself that she was such a beautiful innocent young girl who was taken and clearly many of the journalists involved felt a great deal of empathy with us as well.

Clearly the holiday company saw this media needed to be managed and engaged Bell Pottinger straight away and they sent out their head of crisis management, Alex Woolfall, to deal with the media. They also provided to us trauma counselling, which was very, very important in how we dealt with the situation. And we had counselling sessions within 36 hours of this happening and I have to say it played a tremendous part in helping me cope with the situation and try to do things to influence the outcome. I’d like to play a video, if we can get this.

Video: ‘One cannot describe the anguish and despair that we are feeling as the parents of our beautiful daughter, Madeleine. We request that anyone who may have any information related to Madeleine’s disappearance, no matter how trivial, contact the Portuguese police and help us get her back safely. Please, if you have Madeleine, let her come home to her mummy, daddy, brother and sister. As everyone can understand how distressing the current situation is, we ask that our privacy is respected to allow us to continue assisting the police in their investigation. Thank you.’

Read Gerry McCann’s speech

Gerry McCann: That video’s from about 9.30 pm on the 4th of May and I wanted to show it because I think even at that stage when I saw the media it filled me with dread about the potential intrusion of privacy, but I also saw it as an opportunity of helping the search, and the salient point, I haven’t seen that video for at least 18 months, and it brought back to me, the salient points of which we were trying to achieve; to get information into the investigation, which we still strive to do, as Madeleine is still missing, secondly, to let as many people as possible, know that Madeleine is missing, and thirdly, even though in that first night we were already concerned about intrusion of privacy, and I think I’ll show you in the following slides that we had very good reasons to be concerned.

So the primary objectives were to get the best possible investigation so when I put the slide up showing that we were talking about the campaign strategy, much of it was not media related, and so we had very early contact with the UK foreign office and other government officials striving to get the best possible investigation. We had to look at getting information into the enquiry and after the first few days when Madeleine was not discovered in the vicinity of the Algarve, then we had to think okay, where could she have been taken, and that influenced the decisions in which countries to visit and try and target so Spain’s a neighbouring country to Portugal, so one of the first things that we did was we got a message to David Beckham, asking him to do an appeal. He was playing for Real Madrid in this very city at the time and he agreed to that and did a very emotional appeal. And that had an amazing effect on the overall campaign because he was such a worldwide superstar and it seemed to have a snowball effect.

We took advice from the crisis management team and Alex Woolfall was absolutely brilliant. What he said to us was that for any media that you do, you must clearly define what your objective is from doing the media and secondly, ask yourself the question, how is it going to help, and that helped us tremendously with our future press conferences, statements and photo calls. We also did a number of TV and magazine interviews, I have to say, mainly at the request of the media, and that is one of the times where Alex would say you’re just feeding the beast. We subsequently had a public audience with the Pope and we had visits to Spain appealing for information and help and also we went to Germany and the Netherlands who make up the largest group of tourists to the Algarve, after the British and Irish, and we also visited Morocco which is obviously not far across the Mediterranean.

This early media coverage was generally very, very supportive. The largest weekly newspaper in the United Kingdom, the News of the World, had got a number of celebrities to agree to contribute to an award and £1.5 million was pledged. Additionally we had a businessman from Scotland who pledged another £1 million. There was, without doubt, unprecedented public interaction.

There were a huge amount of posters put up all over the United Kingdom and further afield and generally there was a focus on trying to find Madeleine and/or her abductors. The poster in the middle was released with JK Rowling’s last Harry Potter book and at the time, particularly in those first few weeks, I would say that the normal media rivalry between different organisations was put to one side and there was a real feeling that people would not let such tragic crimes happen again and that we really were going to make a difference and try and find Madeleine.

I think, I don’t expect you to read all of this, but this was an editorial in a larger selling daily newspaper in the United Kingdom, The Sun, which was printed the day after we did our first TV interviews which was more than three weeks after Madeleine was abducted and I would just like to point out the very bottom line and it says The Sun is proud, with other newspapers, to play our part in their hunt, meaning Kate and I’s hunt, for Madeleine and that summed up the general feeling at the time.

However, we even early on, realised there were a number of drawbacks of having such intense media coverage. There was a voracious, almost insatiable appetite for new stories in relation to Madeleine and actually the media were generally operating in a vacuum because of Portugal’s judicial secrecy laws and that the police weren’t allowed to speak directly to the media. We didn’t want to give too much information regarding exactly what happened and the timeline, for two reasons; one, fear of breaking the judicial law and secondly, we didn’t want the abductor to know information or put it in the public domain that only that other person could know.

Within weeks we already saw that there was a focus in the media coverage. There was a switching of attention away from Madeleine and it started to become the Kate and Gerry show. There was intense pressure to do media, which I have to say would have been for media sake, which we tried to resist. And it also became clear to us that Madeleine stories were selling newspapers and that there had to be a Madeleine story and she was becoming a commodity and people were starting to forget that she was a real child.

In June 2007, after we completed our visit, we tried to signal a change in our strategy. We appointed a campaign manager and her role was not directly a spokesperson. We anticipated that the media interest would naturally dwindle and the role was really about ensuring that we could maintain a search in the long term. We also signalled that Kate and I would not be making regular press statements or conferences and we asked the media to no longer photograph our two-year-old twins. We hadn’t asked for that immediately, primarily because I just didn’t think it was enforceable, given the huge amount of media attention and particularly in another country. We might have managed it in the UK but even I doubt it there.

Towards the end of August and September 2007 there was really quite a dramatic change in the media coverage. We were declared arguidos, which the closest thing in UK law is a person of interest and what that allows you to do is have a lawyer present during interviews. And it means that the police have to ask you questions in which your answers may incriminate yourself and as witnesses you’re not allowed to have a lawyer present and you must answer all questions. So being given the status of arguidos is actually to protect your own legal interest, and whereas that was just translated as suspects, and very much led to a number of damaging headlines.

There were multiple headlines that accused us either of directly killing Madeleine or being involved in disposing of her body and you can imagine how distressing this was when we were trying to ensure that there was an active and ongoing search and clearly we felt if people believed these stories, particularly in Portugal and further afield, then there could be no search, if people believed Madeleine was dead.

I’m just going to spend a minute or two showing you some of the front page headlines that were printed in the United Kingdom press. I would also like to point out that Amelie, who’s being carried by Kate here’s face is not pixelated so suddenly as we were declared arguidos it was okay to have our children’s photographs published on front page of newspaper again with millions of circulation, put on the internet: the multiple references to DNA in the cars, hair.

So when we came back to United Kingdom we felt that we had to do that to protect ourselves from the intrusion. We did try and combat these negative stories and really we had a trial by media at this point. The criminal lawyers who were appointed to defend us had multiple visits to the editors of all the national newspapers along with our spokesperson. And I can tell you that they assured the editors that there was not a shred of evidence to back up these wild allegations. There was a letter from the chief constable of Leicestershire police who was leading the investigation from the United Kingdom end, urging restraint in the coverage and emphasising that many of the stories that were published, had no grain of truth to them.

We also had further discussions with the Press Complaints Commission about how we may stop such coverage but despite these actions, the front page headlines continued and the previous ones all happened within a week of us coming back from Portugal. These ones are later. We are now into October and DNA reference once again; further ones in October. Now into the end of November and getting increasingly bizarre and ultimately in the space of five days, there were three front page headlines in January of 2008, that were regurgitating the same stories and for us, we come to breaking point. And at that point, although we’d had discussions earlier with Carter Ruck and Adam Tudor who’s here today, we felt enough is enough and we agreed to issue complaint letters against the worst offender and we also got an agreement from Carter Ruck that if the case did go to court, then they would represent us on a conditional fee arrangement, which was very important to our decision to press the button. The letters of complaint requested the removal of online versions of the articles, full apologies and we asked for damages and of course costs.

After an initial short wrangle, the newspapers did not defend these complaints and they did not argue for defence of truth of responsible journalism, which we were advised would have stood very little chance in a court of law. The complaints were settled out of court to our satisfaction and I have to say that we had unprecedented front page apologies and additionally a statement was read out in front of the judge in the London’s High Court.

A total of £550,000 paid in damages by one publisher alone, which was at our request, paid directly into Madeleine’s fund. This is the fund that we set up to help the search and we were told that the sum reflected the amount of damages the distress would have caused us. And there were certainly discussions that if this had gone to court, we could have argued for exemplary damages and to be honest the QC whose counsel we took, suggested that the damages we could have got would have been much, much higher than what we accepted but the most important thing for us was to get this out and to stop the coverage. And that was a main motivation for doing it. Additionally the seven friends who were on holiday with us, who had many similar allegations of being involved in a cover-up, were awarded £375,000 which they agreed also to pay into Madeleine’s fund, and we had a further small settlement with one other publisher.

Without a doubt there was an effect of these successful complaints. There was massive TV coverage and in some of the news channels it was the main news item that day. Although there was lots of press present at the High Court reading, there was rather less coverage in the newspapers, which is not surprising. Subsequent to that, I would have to say there was a dramatic effect with much more cautious and responsible reporting. And one of our concerns was obviously whether we would have burned our bridges with the media and we would no longer get co-operation when we wanted them to put information out but that has not been the case. There is still tremendous amount of appetite when we helped the media to help us get messages to the general public.

We mentioned invasion of privacy and clearly we couldn’t stop being photographed. On the very first night, the tour operators asked us if we wanted to go to a villa and I said I felt that would be worse. We’d be completely hemmed in with all the media at the end of a drive and we did stay in a holiday complex and it did allow us to move around. However when we returned home, we had news journalists and paparazzi at the end of our drive for several months, ramming cameras into the car, including when the twins were in it.

Even early on there seemed to be a complete blurring of what would be considered our public persona, doing things that related to Madeleine, and what was private so we were followed around, followed on the beach. The children were being followed and photographed, and even when we tried to get away from it all, there were surreptitious journalists trying to obtain photographs on us on our first holiday without Madeleine and they did manage to find us at the airport when we were returning home.

The Press Complaints Commission in the UK generally have been helpful in enforcing protecting the privacy of our children and that’s something that I’m not sure exists in other countries as well. The greatest violation of our invasion of privacy was the publication of Kate’s, translation of Kate’s journal, which was seized during the initial police investigation. And actually there is a judge’s order in the Portuguese file which ordered the destruction of all copies of the journal as being of no interest to the investigation. And this article, front page, with several pages, word for word of the journal was published inside, was done without our consent, and we very rapidly complained. That journal was written for Madeleine and for our other children and I cannot tell you how distressing it was for Kate to be told that it had been published. That complaint was settled, I have to say quickly, with the publishers who had been supportive up to that point generally.

I’d just like to finish with a few thoughts: If I was asked to go back and would I have interacted with the media in the same way then the answer would have been almost completely yes. We did it with the best intentions. Our hope was to get the best possible search and in fact we will continue to interact with the media if it’s appropriate. With hindsight, I would have made a clearer boundary and withdrawn from allowing the media to photograph us doing anything that was not Madeleine related in public. And again with hindsight, although we were absolutely certain when it came to it, that we were ready to take action, with hindsight we should have taken action earlier, against the newspapers in the UK for publishing these stories.

These really are just some thoughts for the future rather than anything that may be enforced in law, but we do know, and the media know, that they’re incredibly powerful. In the past they’ve been showing it by displaying images and they can help find children and that was why we chose to interact with them. However they have the potential to destroy lives and if we had not been supported as well as we had, by many different people including Carter Ruck, then they could have destroyed our lives and what was already seriously damaged.

So with such power comes marked responsibility. I think it is extremely important that ordinary people like ourselves do have the right to legal redress and I’m not sure that we could have gone through with these complaints against large organisations without the safety net of a conditional fee arrangement and that is certainly something that I think within the UK, should continue. And I’d like to ask for an appeal to the media, to remember that at the centre of every tragic story there are real people and real children and real families and we are not characters. Thank you.

[Acknowledgement: pamalam at gerrymccannsblog]

Madeleine Was Here:  Cutting Edge Show - 7th May 2009

Transcript:

K: I did my check about 10.00 ‘clock and went in through the sliding patio doors and I just stood, actually and I thought, oh, all quiet, and to be honest, I might have been tempted to turn round then, but I just noticed that the door, the bedroom door where the three children were sleeping, was open much further than we’d left it. I went to close it to about here and then as I got to here, it suddenly slammed and then as I opened it, it was then that I just thought, I’ll just look at the children and I could see S and A in the cot and then I was looking at M’s bed which was here and it was dark and I was looking and I was thinking, is that M or is that the bedding. and I couldn’t quite make her out. It sounds really stupid now, but at the time, I was thinking I didn’t want to put the light on cos I didn’t wanna wake them and literally, as I went back in, the curtains of the bedroom which were drawn,… were closed, … whoosh … It was like a gust of wind, kinda, just blew them open and cuddle cat was still there and her pink blanket was still there and then I knew straight away that she had, er, been taken, you know.

Voice over: It’s now 2 years since MM was abducted while on holiday in Portugal. Her parents, K&G live near L with M’s brother and sister, four year old twins, S&A.

G: We are a family, and we’re a happy family, but we are not a complete family.

KM: I think we’re far from normality. We’re far from normality but we’re closer than we were.

K is painting the names of the three children.
She asks the children what is the name of their sister. One of the children says the full name and the other child says the shortened version.

K: I honestly believe they’re expecting her to come home, you know, one day soon. They are very much, well, when Madeleine comes back, we’ll share our toys and, you know, A is wearing Madeleine’s shoes. She’ll say well these shoes won’t fit M, now, so we’ll have to take her and get her a bigger pair of shoes when she gets home. You know.

Voice over: K has given up her work as a GP and now stays at home with the twins.

K: A lot of the places that I go now ,I used to go with Madeleine as well, so there’s little things that trigger, (mumble) like on the farm where we go quite a lot. You know, I can see Madeleine swinging on the rope in the hayloft. She was great, she was only three and she’d be like, you know, swinging backwards and forwards, you know. I can see her in the little, sort of, gypsy wagon that they had, asking me to come in and that’s hard. You get memories and reality hits in again.

It’s like kinda, of, um, tangible void, really.

Voice over: G has returned to work at GH, where he is a consultant cardiologist.

G: Given the indefinite nature of what we are going through, you have to, at some point, say, I’m going to go back.

Voice of Interviewer: Do you think you have both healed a bit.

G: Healed is a diffi…adapted, I think, is probably the right word. There’s still, there’s a scar, a deep, deep scar there, that’s, kinda, knitted at the minute but you still think it might break or come loose and stitches (mumble) But, it is, er, definitely an er… adaptation. I think.

G: There’ll always be a hope, you know, we’re living with this carrot, that potentially she could come back and I think, that makes it more painful, that you don’t know and that she’s, she’s, she’s out there and separated from you It’s less raw, erm, less painful on a day to day basis, erm, but, it’s still pretty painful. (Sighs) Erm, it’s different.

Voice over: The second anniversary of M’s disappearance is approaching. K&G want to use the media attention to keep the search in the public’s mind.

K: (in their study). It almost feels like the last, I guess, media opportunity. We really need to think about that, to get the right message out.

Voice over: (very briefly, showing part of fm (download poster page ). The M’s are organising a series of events aimed at prompting fresh evidence, including a difficult trip back to the holiday resort.

Voice over continues: A national TV appearance in the States and perhaps, most crucially a visit to the world’s leading child recovery expert. (shows E A). EA says we truly believe (shows the picture) this is what MM looks like today. Shows new image.

G: She’s either out there or she’s not and there’s nothing to say that she’s not out there alive. So it’s simple, she’s out there until proven otherwise.

Voice of Interviewer: Who actually is looking for M at the moment?

G: Er, hopefully, lots of people, er, in the general population, but in terms of an investigative strategy, then there’s no law enforcement agency that is proactively doing anything. It’s pretty amazing really. Er, when you think about, it’s a very serious crime and, erm, we’ve got to do it.

G: We’re not out making a fuss for the sake of it or to say, things were done badly or could have been done better. That’s not what we’re interested in. We’re not interested in looking back. What we want to do is look forward.

Voice over: But there are two men still looking for Madeleine, ex-Detective Inspector DE is the senior Investigating Officer. He works alongside former Detective Sargeant A C. Both are now employed by the fm fund.

AC: …given a really good description and what I’ve done is, I’ve made arrangements to go and see him on Tuesday morning.

DE: I’ve inherited an investigation which is 18 months’ old. It’s a massive investigation.

AC: For me, it’s quite simple, whether it be a high profile murder or any investigation. It’s a jigsaw puzzle and it’s just the case of putting little pieces in and that’s what we’re doing. You start at the beginning, you do the basics right and everything else comes together. and that’s what, we, hopefully, we’ve done.

DE: One of the hypothesis would be, that it’s the parents that have done it, and it goes without saying, that’s looked at and I’m sure K&G understand that. If, we had any evidence that K&G were involved, we would hand it over to the authorities.

Voice of Interviewer:: and did you find anything?

DE: No, nothing, not a shred of evidence that they were involved.

AC: When I had the interview for the job, I made it quite clear that I would only take the job, if it was an independent investigation and if there’s evidence against anybody, no matter who it is, that we give that evidence to the police.

Voice of interviewer: Do you work with different theories about what happened? Can you say what you think happened?

DE: Well, the abduction theory is the main one that we’re focusing on. If a stranger kills a child or anyone for that matter, they almost, almost always dump the body within a very close proximity of the crime scene. Now this particular area around PdL has been systematically searched. The search was started on the night and continued for weeks and weeks and no body’s been found, so that gives me hope.

Voice of Interviewer: What about if it was dumped in the sea? I mean that’s what most ….

DE: That’s always possible of course. But, again, the sea quite often, you know, gives up the bodies. But no bodies have been found. So, I think that abduction is the most likely motive. Most likely done by an individual on their own. Most likely, an individual who has close links with PdL, which is why we focused all our efforts really, or most of our efforts, certainly on PdL.

Voice over: Out of the hundreds of witnesses who came forward, only a handful are from the local Portuguese community. These are the people the investigators want to hear from so they plan to return to PdL and reconstruct key events surrounding M’s disappearance. Hoping to provoke a response.

K: They used to come and just sit and get a haircut. (laughs). Seems hard to believe it’s actually busier now then it was a year ago.

Voice of Interviewer:: Has the balance changed, because you’re not working in paid work. You’ve worked for most of your adult life.

K: Women adore cooking and washing, anyway don’t they? (laughs)

Voice of Interviewer: So, yes, that hasn’t changed?

K: I don’t think so. It’s funny, cos, you know, going back a few years, if I hadn’t been in paid work, I’d have probably felt, a bit guilty. But, now, what I’m doing is the most important job that I’ll every have to do and I think my work is incredibly valuable.

Voice over: When the Portuguese police shelved the case last summer, they released 30,000 case files, K has spent the last six months going through every document.

K: The vast bulk of it was in Portuguese. So, we then, had to get it all translated, which probably cost us about £100,000. I don’t believe anybody’s got the motivation that I have and I was desperate to go through this myself, because I knew that I’d be going through it with a fine toothcomb and I have spent months and months and months and months going through it, evenings, weekends. You know, you wanna go through it really, really quickly because I wanted to get all the information I can and know what I can do, to help find her, as quickly as possible. So, obviously, I just worked really hard, just to get through it. Often, you know, police do say the name’s in the files. It was always there, but you just need other bits of information, really, to come in to basically highlight the name. At the moment, there isn’t a big arrow and an astrix (sic) by the name.

Voice over: The most likely sighting of M and her abductor was by JT, a friend of the Mc’s. In the files, K believes another witness statement from an Irish family, describes a very similar sighting to JT’s. Less than a mile from the Mc’s apartment.

K: The reason why this is significant is, both sightings were given independently. So, when this family gave their statement they weren’t aware of J(T)’s description and there’s actually quite a lot of similarities and it does beg the question, I mean, how many people carry their children on a cold night, not covered, you know. Nothing on their arms, or their feet, no blanket. Now, either there’s been two people carrying children that way, who haven’t come forward to eliminate themselves or potentially they’re related.

Voice of Interviewer: But, you think that child is M?

K: I think it’s a good chance it could be M. Certainly, the description there, sounds to me, like M.

Voice over: K and the fm campaign co-ordinator travel to the search team’s offices. They want to discuss the details of the upcoming reconstructions and three potentially key witness statements, that all tell of a man hanging around the Mc’s apartment in the days leading up to May 3 2007.

DE: The most important one, apart, obviously, from Jane, is sighting No. 3, the man in the alleyway at the back of the apartment. No.3 is definitely a very important sighting cos it links them.

Voice over: The investigators have examined the statements from the three different witnesses and are now convinced that prior to M’s abduction, the Mc’s were being watched. The team hope this new information will give them the breakthrough they need.

DE: You’d think, it’s gotta be the same person, wouldn’t you, really?

AC: and all three say he was watching the apartment.

DE: We’re here to discuss the pending reconstruction that we want done.

K: So, basically, it looks like we’ve got five sightings, really. Two, a man with a child and three, just a suspicious individual.

DE: Yeah

K: and three, the three with the suspicious, suspicious, of the suspicious (she seems to have developed a stutter) individual, kinda, tie in together.

DE: They all tie in together.

Fm campaign co-ordinator: They’re all at similar times and place.

DE: There’s three in exactly the same location. I don’t know what the Portuguese authorities have done to actually eliminate these people from the enquiry. So, we’ve gotta presume that they haven’t done it and go with that. So, it’s just important, that we actually, we are accurate in what we know and make sure that that’s what we’re going with. No speculation. It’s gotta be the facts that we know and not try to fill in the gaps that we don’t know.

K: I mean, I’d like to go back, but not for this, to be honest. It’s kinda, just below the surface and I just, you know, I’d be scared, I think, you know, to sort of open it open it up again, really, so. yeah. I think, it’s actually going through the scenario of that night, as well, you know. Erm, I mean, you know, even what I can remember of the night, you know. Seeing G, erm, that distraught, really, sobbing and on the floor. I mean, I suppose I’m concerned that that will, er, surface again.

Voice over: K calls key witness JT, who has agreed to join G and the investigators in PdL for the reconstructions.

Scene: K talking on the phone to JT

K: “Oh, ok, pretty busy, (she laughs). Although, it’s quite good to be honest to be doing stuff and focused and it just sort of helps, you know, to be doing something positive thing. How you feeling about the weekend? I mean, I’m really nervous and I’m not going (laughs). Thank you very much by the way. No, I know, I know it’s a big step, but we appreciate it anyway so, thank you.

K: Er, she’s trying not to think about it. She just said, erm, apart from the obvious emotional concern, she’s worried about the reaction of people locally.

Voice over: Returning will be controversial. PdL was a popular family holiday resort, but things haven’t been the same since M’s abduction.

K: You know, we are aware that, unfortunately, erm, this has all been a headache really for people whose businesses are out there, their livelihoods, you know. It’s a negative, a child’s been abducted from that area and I guess in the ideal world, it would all go away, you know, everybody could move on with their lives and, but, you know, our little girl is still missing so …

K: I think regardless of what anybody thinks of me and G, and I’m a bit past caring now, really. But, you know, I think, people do feel for M and that’s the most important thing and they want M to be found and they want M to be well. There has been a question as to why now and I’d simply say, well M is still missing. Why not, now? You know.

Voice of Interviewer: Do you feel there’s a lot riding on this weekend?

K: I do, yeah, and I’m nervous. I’m nervous because I realise how important this is to do really. To get that bit of key information, I’m nervous that it’ll … all could get sabotaged or it could all go very wrong. Obviously, I don’t want that because it’s so important.

G: We are desperate for this to be successful and to be done and hopefully it might be one call, t might be 10 calls, but that’s all it’ll take, it could be just one piece of information.

DE: The offence was committed in PdL, that’s a simple fact. So, you don’t start an investigation in, er, Morocco or Spain or even Lisbon. This event’s happened in PdL. It’s a very self-contained resort and that’s where I think the answer is.

Voice over: D E is leading the search for MM. Today, he’s in PdL, on the Portuguese Algarve, to oversee filming of significant events described in witness statements. Statements, which he believes, strongly suggest that someone was watching the Mc family. He hopes that the reconstructions will lead to the discovering who that someone is.

DE: He may even have been watching the apartment for a week or more. I don’t think it was someone random. In my experience random just doesn’t happen. Someone just doesn’t go in, … passerby, and pick up a child and take it. These things are planned.

DE with Pimpleman actor

DE: This, erm, scene. You’re standing over there and you’re standing at an angle

Action: filming starts

Witness 1: Child and woman walking.

Voice over: Witness No. 1 is a British tourist. She first saw something strange four days before M disappeared.

Sunday, April 29, approx 08.00

Witness 1: I was walking along the road with my daughter, when I saw a man. I grabbed my daughter’s hand and pulled her towards me because for some reason, he unnerved me.

Voice over: She saw the same man again. This time close to the Mc’s apartment on the day before M went missing

Wednesday 2 May approx 15.00

Witness 1: The next time I saw him, he was standing on the opposite side of the road to the apartment. He appeared to be watching it. He was about 5’10”, slim build and wearing casual clothes, jeans, I think. I would describe him as very ugly, pitted skin, with a large nose.

DE talking to a young girl (Witness 3)

DE: …and as you’re just passing here, this chap will be stood over there. So, if you just, you come up, if you just glance over at him and ….

Scene shows Witness 2, Mum, girl and two dogs

Voice over: The second witness is a school girl, who lives near the holiday complex. Three days before M was taken, she was with her mum outside the M’s apartment.

Monday 30 April approx 08.15

Witness 2: I was walking to the school bus stop. I go this way to school every day. As I was walking down the road, near the apartment, I saw a man on the small path behind the block. My grandparents used to live in that apartment. So, I always look at it, as I pass by. The man seemed to be looking at the balcony of the ground floor apartment. He was wearing a black jacket and leaning against the wall.

Voice over: She saw him again, as well, the day before M was taken.

Witness 2: I didn’t go to school that day because I had an ear infection. I was walking up the road with my two dogs, when I saw the man. He was standing on the road opposite the OC and he was staring at the apartment.

DE talking to older couple (Witness 3)

DE: You have him coming from your apartment, which is over here, somewhere. You turn the corner and walk down the path.

Lady witness (the couple) (Witness 3): What the two of us?

DE: Yes, the two of you together.

DE: This was actually a sketch that was drawn by the witness at the time and, er, as you can see, he’s just stood where we are now. (shows sketch the couple) Make eye contact with him and just walk straight on past.

Voice over: Witness No 3 is a man with his partner from Cheshire. He gave a statement to the police describing a man he’d seen near the apartment.

Witness 3 (Man) I can’t remember whether I saw the man on Wednesday 2 or Thursday 3 May (approximately 11.30). But as we walked along the road, I saw a man standing next to the wall by the parking area. On the opposite side of the road was a white van. I paid particular attention to him, because he appeared to be focused on watching the apartment block as I walked past him, I looked at him, and for a split second, we had eye contact but then he just carried on staring at the apartment.

DE: We’re asking for people to come forward with information. For me, one of the big things in any major crime, the perpetrators always confide in someone else. They’ve gotta get it off their chest and it’s that person, as much as anything, that we’re aiming at. Someone knows something.

Voice over: G is back in PdL. His arrival and the reconstructions are attracting a lot of media attention. But for the people who live here, it’s attention they can do without.

G: This is an area that relies strongly on tourism and people’s livelihoods have been affected and I can totally understand when people are suffering economically, that they get resentful. But, hope they can understand as well, that as parents, we need to find M.

Voice over: The simmering anger is evident. A brand new billboard poster of M with “Help me” in Portuguese has been splattered with paint and at the holiday complex G can hear the hostility (heckling)

G: No one, even with a heart of stone, can take away that there’s a little girl missing. Why anyone would not want to help find her is a mystery and obviously if we find M, then everyone can move on.

Voice over: He goes back to the Tapas Bar where they ate in the evenings, while the children slept in the apartment.

G: I can’t remember exactly where the table was. It was kinda in this bit, so it’d be about around here and I was kinda sitting in this bit and K was here. Well, you could see where the shutters are now and the bit of the hedge, it’s grown. It was cut, you know, a couple of feet lower than that.

CONTINUED .......

Second Section

Voice over: For the first time in two years, G returns to apartment 5a of the OC.

Voice over: The last place where he saw his daughter, M, asleep in her bed.

G: So, I actually came in and M was just at the top of the bed here, where I’d left her lying and the covers were folded down and she had her cuddle cat and blanket, were just by her head It’s terrible because, I , erm, had one of those really proud father moments, where I just thought, you know. I just thought, your absolutely beautiful and I love you and I just paused for a minute and then, I just pulled the door closed again and just to about there and, er, I felt incredibly proud standing there and having, you know, 3 beautiful children.
That’s the, I think the most ironic thing of the lot, that, that momentary pause I had, at that door, that’s exactly what I felt like. You know, a few minutes before our world was essentially shattered and probably, 3 or 4 minutes before M was taken and we obviously, absolutely, er, what’s the word, persecuted ourselves for not being here and, erm, there is no doubt, that not being here at that moment, erm, increased the risk of it.

Voice over: The Mc’s were on holiday with a group of friends. In the evenings, they all ate together and took it in turns to make half-hourly checks on each other’s children. Two of the group, MO and JT, both crucial witnesses, have returned to help DE with the reconstructions. It’s believed that M was taken shortly after her father’s check at 9 o’clock. In the 45 minutes that followed, there were two significant sightings of a man carrying a young girl. The first was by JT. She was looking in on her sick daughter, when she saw G returning from his check. He was talking to a friend, JW, at the side of the road. However, J(T) and G remember the scene differently.

JT: So, I think you were about here. Cos, I think that you were standing like that and, J(W) was there, with his pram, pointing down that way. Cos, I think if you’d been looking at me, I would’ve said something, cos I would’ve said about, cos K had been moaning that you’d been gone a long time watching the football.

G: I’m almost certain that when I came out, I came over and he was here and I was like that. That’s my memory of it, it’s like J(W) is 6’3” or something and looking up and then turning in, when I finished. That’s my memory of it.

JT: Yeah. I mean, well we just …….

DE: It’s like I said, there are, you know, inconsistencies, you know, in every major investigation.

JT: Ok, that’s fine.

DE: Obviously, the most important thing is what you saw, Jane. It’s not where G and J(W) were actually stood. Because they didn’t obstruct your view of the man. So ….

JT: I was walking up here to do the check and probably, as I got to , it’s hard to know exactly where, but probably, about here, I saw the man walk across the road there, carrying the child. I just got up and walked out the Tapas bar, past G talking to J(W). That’s when I saw somebody walk across the top of the road, carrying a child and I think, I did think, oh, there’s somebody taking their child home to bed. But, they didn’t look like a standard tourist. This is ridiculous isn’t it? It just looks so much like somebody abducting a little girl, when you look at it. It just looks so obvious when you know, you know. Just look at it and you think, why the hell didn’t you think there is somebody abducting a child. That was not even a thought, that somebody’s gonna go into an apartment and take a child out. You know, you’re probably the one person that could’ve actually stopped it and you think, oh, what if? It’s that what if? what if?, what if and you can take those what ifs to ad infinitum really.

Voice over: At 9.30 pm, half an hour after G’s check it was MO’s turn to look in on all the children. He went into the Mc’s apartment, but didn’t go into the bedroom and so didn’t see if M was missing.

MO: Pretty much from the approach down here, you can see straight into the room. So you can see the cots as you are walking in. So it never really felt like there was any real need to, sort of, go all the way into the room. Erm, you could see both cots and see into them from there. I, sort of, ummed and ahed about the angle and things. All I just know is that I had an unimpeded view and it was just dead quiet, and just… why I didn’t take those extra couple of steps in

G: Yeah, I mean, I was saying this earlier, that at no point, other than that night, did I go stick my head in. That was the only time, because the door was like that. I mean, I knew how I’d left it.

MO: It’s more that you know I’d felt you’d done enough. You’ve been and seen. It’s quiet.

G: Part of the reason we ended up coming through the back was the noise coming through the front door. We didn’t want to disturb them. Sigh. Stupid, now, isn’t it.

Voice over: It is possible that JT is not the only person who saw M being carried away by the abductor. 40 minutes after J(T)’s sighting and ½ mile away from the Mc’s apartment a family also saw a man carrying a young girl away from the town. Later the witness thought that this might have been GM. But, this was investigated and ruled out by the Portuguese police.

DE: A man was seen here carrying a child, just before 10 pm on the night M was abducted. When the man saw the family he appeared furtive and veered off to one side and carried on walking. Obviously, anyone carrying a child at night, it’s really important. We need to find out who this person was.

Family Witness Statement: I was with my family. We’d been out for the night and we were walking up the street when I saw a man and he was carrying a child. I thought they were father and daughter, so I wasn’t so suspicious. The girl was about 4, she looked like my granddaughter, blonde hair, pale white skin, typically British. The man didn’t look like a tourist. I can’t explain why. It was, probably, from his clothes.

G: Someone knows the information and someone knows who took M and someone knows where she is. Let’s get moving! Let’s get the phone ringing.

Voice over: At home K is preparing for the inevitable media attention that will surround the second anniversary of M’s disappearance.

K: ( Showing photo album) well this one. I think is really sweet and it’s M just when she arrived home from hospital, erm, to our house. I think she looks quite cute, wrapped up in a little bundle. She’s got those eyes. I tell you, those eyes that never closed.

For us they’re not just photos and especially now, not having M in our life, they’re more than photos and to me, each photo is very special. I mean, it’s M and we’ve given out so much of our daughter to the world really. You know, you just want to be able to retain some of it.

Voice of Interviewer: Are we allowed to see this one?

K: uh-hum (nods head in agreement)

Voice of Interviewer: Do you still feel her physically, as much as you did?

K: Tut… well, I know the M that I know, you know. I don’t know M at, you know, nearly six. She might look different. She could be speaking a different language (Scene shows her packing for trip to States) She might have her hair different, she might have different interests, but, you know, she’s still our daughter.

G: (holding up a suit). I think that’s pretty business-like isn’t it?

K: Yes

G: Right, put that away

Voice over: K&G are preparing for a trip to America that they hope will breathe new life into the search for M. As well as an interview on the OW show, they plan on visiting the world’s leading child recovery experts, who are creating an image of M aged six.

K: We’re going to America tomorrow and initially, we’re going to Washington to the NCMEC

EA: Circulating the photograph of, er, of a child, who was not quite four, two year’s later is not good enough.

When, we started this 10 year’s ago. The goal was to use technology, er, to keep these cases alive. To provide new hope for parents and new leads for law enforcement and we said at the time, wouldn’t it be great if we could actually find one of these kids and we found 900 of them. Er, everyone of these 900 cases, the child had been missing at least two years. So, what we’ve tried to do is to take your photos, er, as a guide. Young children’s faces change very quickly. As you can see, she has her mother’s jawline. She has her mother’s mouth. It’s striking. She has her mother’s dimples.

K: That’s me, as well, isn’t it? (referring to picture of her as a child)

EA: This is you, as well. Exactly.

K laughs

EA: But G, she has your nose.

G: The genes mix quite well. (Both laughing).

EA: They really do. They really do. I mean it’s a remarkable example of the best of genetics. So, leaning heavily, on heredity, and using every tool we can find, we truly believe that this is what MM looks like today and we hope that somebody, that millions of somebodies will look at the picture, but, that somebody will be moved to reach out and say, I think I have information.

G: I glanced It’s a different child and that is really important. It’s not the four year old or nearly four year old little girl and it’s hard, because, In our memory, we remember her the last day she was in Portugal and what she looked like, so…

K: It’s a very emotional thing, really, to see my daughter in a different way to how I remember her. Erm, so if I’m honest, initially, I, was quite upsetting and then I started to look at features and I thought, well, that’s definitely M and that bits M and, you know, yes, she is 2 year’s older.

EA: Despite the love and the care you that you put into raising her, at that age, M may not know she’s missing. M may have been told, well, now you are supposed to come with me. So, we hope that other children will look at this. It’s not inconceivable that she’s in a classroom somewhere. The goal here is to reach out to people around the world and say. Somebody knows something and if you do, call us.

Voice over: K&G now need to publicise this new image. The first step is to travel from Washington to Chicago for an interview on OWS, that will be broadcast in 144 countries.

G: It’s really important we get this image out, as far and as wide as possible. Because, ultimately, we don’t know where M is and if she was moved out of Portugal quickly, she could be anywhere and that’s the main reason for doing O(W) get that image out there

K: Nervous, but, it’s like anything we’ve done, you know, we’re doing it for a reason and the reason’s to held find M so just get on with it.

G: I actually think there’s not much more else we can do right now.

K: I think we’ve achieved a lot in the last few weeks and we’re really hoping that somebody who has been sitting there, knowing something, will suddenly feel the courage and compassion really to come forward and of course, we’ve also released the age progression image of M, now age 6 and I think that’s important. Because that’s almost appealing to people, who may know M, whatever M’s called now

K: So I feel, we’ve all worked really hard. I think what we’ve done is positive and productive. I actually feel the chance of us finding M is higher now, it’s more likely to yield a result and I actually feel a little excited, really, about what we’ve just done so.

G: I think it’s like, we want it out there, now. All the work’s been done and it’s all being co-ordinated round the anniversary. But we want it out and it’s just, let’s get moving.

K: We just need that one person, there might be more than one person, but one person to come forward and say I’ve seen that girl or I remember something from that night and that could unravel the whole thing.

[Acknowledgement - pamalam at gerrymccannsblog]

Philomena McCann

Philomena McCann, the aunt of missing toddler Madeleine McCann, has criticised police in Portugal.
5th May 2007

Interviewer: It's, errr... now more than 30 hours since 3-year-old Madeleine McCann went missing at the, errr... family holiday resort in the Algarve. Her parents, at the time, were having dinner nearby.

Let's speak to Phil McCann, who is Madeleine's aunt. Errr... hello to you, Phil, thank you for joining us, errr... this morning. Errr... You must be in constant contact, errr... with the family out there in the Algarve. Errm... Just give us an idea what the police are doing to try and find Maddie?

Philomna McCann: Well, the police have stepped up the search, much more than before anyway, and I spoke to Gerry about half an hour ago and he said that they are doing everything... the sniffer dogs are really evident. There's lots and lots of activity but he just thinks it's too little too late.

I: Do they feel, Phil, that, errr... the police missed an opportunity, on that first night, after, errr... Maddie's parents reported her missing?

PM: Absolutely. It was hours before the local police turned up and we're talking two bobbies that totally downplayed the incident and said that Maddie had maybe just wandered off, and that... but what 3-year-old would wander off for hours on their own? It took the CID 5 hours before they responded to come and even then it was, kind of, shrug of the shoulders. There's been no feedback from the Portuguese police to Gerry. The stress levels have been through the roof because of this, it's just been shocking.

I: Phil, do, errr... Maddie's parents think that she has been snatched then or do they think there's any chance that she might have... might have gone missing because she just opened the door of the apartment and... and did go for a wander?

PM: I mean, it is completely ludicrous that anyone would suggest that Madeleine went for a wander. She's a 3-year-old that loves her family. She was sleeping between her brother and sister. She dotes on her parents. She's just like a normal 3-year-old; happy, carefree... Why would she wander away from people who love her? Gerry and Kate knew instantly - which is why Kate responded by being hysterical - that someone had snatched her daughter. Convincing other people has been the hardest job. Kids don't just walk away when they're happy, carefree and well-adjusted, and that's what Madeleine is. But, she must be so petrified now.

I: Errm... We know the sort of operation which would have been, errr... kick-started in this country when a child goes missing. Errr... there would be a televised appeal; there would be a press conference. Do you know if anything like that is taking place over in Portugal to... to, errr... widen the search for Maddie at this time?

PM: Well, Gerry says that anything that's happened has been British led. They had some posters put up and people have been helping distribute... and the kindness of people that they don't know, as well as their frem... family and friends, has been utterly immense. But in the Portuguese end it's been so subdued, it's all low-key; it's not enough, they have to do so much more. I don't know what the press is like in Portugal today, in the media, but certainly the response we have had from the media in Britain has been tremendous but it's not mirrored in Portugal, from what we can see. It's just a case of: 'Well, how can this happen in a family-friendly resort?', 'How can... errr... it's not...', you... you know, 'You're over-reacting', 'Calm down', 'Blah, blah, blah'. Well, you know, almost two days later, Madeleine's missing. Calm down? I don't think so. They need to get their act in order. It's shocking.
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'It Is Abhorrent To Suggest Bad Parenting' Sky News videos
5th May 2007

Philomna McCann: The childcare facilities: you're leaving people with other folk that you don't know. Gerry and Kate are in a clear line of sight of their kids. They regularly go across to check; maybe if the kids have been disturbed or crying or anything and if they'd come out the front they would have seen them. It is obvious that someone with malicious intent went through that window and took Madeleine from the safety and security of her family. To suggest in any possible way that Kate and Gerry are negligible pare... negligent pare... negligent parents, sorry, is just abhorrent to all of us. They love their family; they would never willingly, knowingly or in any way neglect them. It's horrible.

Ian Woods: Very difficult for Gerry and Kate to face the media last night, I mean, Gerry was... was very strong in... in reading his statement. Have you... have you spoken to them this morning? How are... how are they doing?

PM: I've spoken to Gerry several times. Errr... they're a bit better; they had a counsellor speak to them for an hour and a half this morning and it's helped give Gerry, errr... some perspective and really helped them, you know, get things... and make small steps is what they're trying to do; they're trying to keep it together. They had a small amount of sleep which has had an enormous impact on regenerating their... their zest and, you know, their life f... trying to find Madeleine is all they can think about and it's what everyone has to focus on. They need to find Madeleine; she has to come home.

IW: And it must be very frustrating for them to just be sitting, waiting for news. Is there... is there a temptation for them to... to get out and... and try and search themselves, even though, you know, that is only going to be adding a very small amount to the... the much wider search that the police are doing?

PM: Yeah, well, I mean, for Gerry and Kate, they want to get out there. They want to search everything; they want to leave nothing unturned but, then, that's for everyone that we've spoken to. This crisis has hit so many people, from our f.... close friends and family to people across the world. We've had an enormous amount of, errr... support from people; the media have been terrific in trying to, errm... show this to people and how much it's affected us. She's just a little girl.
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Aunt: 'Toddler's Parents Are Not To Blame' Sky News videos
9th May 2007

Philomna McCann: They were going back to check into a locked apartment, where they had left their kids sleeping, you know. They're good parents; they tried so hard to have kids. They've got three beautiful children that they absolutely dote on.

Kay Burley: You must be very... get quite cross when there's any criticism of... of them, having left them having left her on her own?

PM: Well, it's completely unjustified. They're normal parents who love their children and would never neglect them in any way and anyone suggesting that they... that they were neglecting them... it's just completely insulting.

KB: I'm sure that's true. How long are they, errm... how long are they going to stay out there? Until they find Maddie?

PM: They'll stay until they find Madeleine. How can they go on? They need their daughter. They absolutely need her and we... we... we just need to have Madeleine home. These person or people have to bring her back to us. I mean, the whole family needs her here - not just Gerry and Kate, although, I mean, she's just such an integral member of the family. If you... I mean you suggested that we are a close family; if, you know, a big part of that goes... and we love children, most of us, you know... my job's working with children; Gerry and Kate have caring occupations. Both of them dedicated their life to having people, you know, to helping having... getting out there, and, you know, to have this happen is just the worst possible scenario.

KB: Sure.
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McCann Relatives Launch Fighting Fund Sky News videos
16th May 2007

Philomna McCann: Errr... well, personally I... I'm heartened by the support I've received today in Parliament. There have been lots of suggestions; from the top, to some of the lesser, but as much appreciated, individuals within the Parliament. I have been galvanised by their support and I take on board some of their ideas which I have found very helpful, thank you.

Q: Could you give us an idea of what the Chancellor offered you in advice?

PM: Well, the Chancellor, more than anything, gev [gave] me some moral support and his advice I'd like to firstly share with my brother before I share it with the rest of the country and keep him in the loop rather than, errr... the media and people, errr... I'm sure at some point you will be made aware of the suggestions that have been made but for now I'd like to mull them over with my family because they deserve to hear them first, quite frankly.

Q: Were you moved by the mood of the house during Prime Minister's question time?

PM: What, the light-hearted mood when there was much of the jocularity? Or the support for the family? I presume you mean the second. Yes, it was very, errr... heartrending. It, errm... it really does help you to know that so many people support you and my family. It, errr... it is really, really nice.
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"They're trying to get Kate to admit to having accidentally killed Madeleine and disposed of her body"
7th September 2007


Philomena McCann: Part of it is that they're, errm... trying to get Kate to admit to having accidentally killed Madeleine and disposed of her body... hidden and disposed of her body - which is complete nonsense. Errr... It has no factual basis whatsover and, looking at the scenario: assuming that when they'd gone home, early evening, Kate has murdered her daughter and then gone out for some convivial company with friends, sat and had a meal and later rai... you know, raised an alarm - but sat through all that perfectly normal with people and then done it. It just beggar's belief; it's not true.
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"They tried to get Kate to confess"
7th September 2007

Philomena McCann: They tried to get Kate to, errr... confess to having accidentally killed, errr... Madeleine by offering her a deal through her lawyer, which was: 'If you say that you killed Madeleine by accident; and then hid her; and then disposed of the body, errr... then we can guarantee you a two-year jail sentence or even less. You may get off because people feel sorry for you; it was an accident.'
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This Morning, ITV1, 07 September 2007 Prime Time

Following the news that Kate McCann had been named as a suspect in the case, Madeleine's aunt spoke to Phillip Schofield and Ruth Langsford on the 'This Morning' show on ITV1.

Ruth: "Only a week or so ago, you were in here talking to us and so much has happened in such a short space of time. I know that you've spoken to Kate this morning, 11 hours she was at the station answering questions, how is she this morning?"

Philomena: "She's completely outraged, just like the rest of the family. It's inconceivable what’s happening to them out there. There they are, they're victims of this horrendous crime and now they're trying to sully their name in this disgusting manner with this smear campaign. It’s just unbelievable."

Ruth: "I know that during the news reports we've been seeing in the last couple of days it has been stressed that they are being questioned as witnesses not suspects. Is that still the case Philomena?"

Philomena: "Not that I am aware of, no. As far as I know they've changed their status and they are suspects. And I do know that some of the things that Kate has been asked are just incomprehensible. It's just the most shocking news ever."

Phillip: "We're confused because we've been waiting all week, in fact for longer then that, for this piece of forensic evidence which was supposed to throw the case wide open and certainly shed some light on the areas we haven't understood in the past. This is not what we were expecting, certainly not what you were expecting. Has there been anything mentioned to you about this forensic evidence we were supposed to be hearing about?"

Philomena: "Yes, there has been things mentioned, it's about body fluids being on the family's clothes. I'm not sure exactly, I don't know in-depth details. Some of it seems to me more then a little ludicrous. Of course there would be Madeleine's fluids on their clothes, they pick her up. She's a little girl who get's hugged and lifted. How does that change their status? As far as I can see all they're trying to do is fit Kate and Gerry up now because they haven't found this perpetrator, who's wandering about completely free to act as he pleases and possibly do that again. But at this time Kate and Gerry's names are just being totally sullied."

Phillip: "Does this mean that they are now formal suspects? Am I correct in saying they have moved up to this 'arguido' status?"

Philomena: "Yes that's true"

Phillip: "Does that offer them any other protection that they didn't have before?"

Philomena: "The only protection it offers is that they're allowed to take legal representation in with then when they're being questioned by the police and the other thing that it does is that allows them not to answer questions in case they incriminate themselves. But that's not what Kate and Gerry want to do. The police are trying to suggest that Kate has in some way accidentally killed Madeleine. How ludicrous is that when one of their friends actually saw Madeleine being carried up the street by some unknown assailant?"

Ruth: "How much was Kate actually allowed to tell you? What kind of things did they ask her that's made her now feel that they think she is a suspect in this?"

Philomena: "They were saying 'Tell us what you did with her?' Kate's like 'You must be insane to think we'd put ourselves through this'. It's just nonsense."

Phillip: "The relationship between your family and the police, up until now, has appeared to be very good. They're been frustration and certainly a discussion that mistakes have been made but that aside you do seem to have had a good relationship with the police."

Philomena: "My brother's telling me, do not antagonise these people. The enquiry is in their hands, we have to work with these people, they are our best hope. You have to be very political with what you say about them buy hey the gloves are off, these people are imbeciles."

Ruth: "Is it right that Gerry is being questioned separately today?"

Philomena: "He's going in at 2pm today. But he's not the main suspect, for some unknown reason there's something about a sniffer dog sniffing Kate. Suddenly a dog can talk and says she smelled a death. How can that be when a British sniffer dog came out months after Madeleine's case. They're doctors, if there's a smell of death on them could that possibly be a patient?"

Philomena: "You can imagine how low they feel about they with this, and yet there's this adrenaline pumping through them because at the end of the day all the time they're treating Kate and Gerry as suspects, the perpetrator is out there laughing that they've got away with this."

Ruth: "How much do you think these recent developments will affect your campaign now?"

Philomena: "I think with out a doubt they'll be a large number of people who think mud sticks. Whatever they say this has been covered by every news channel. It's all those adages, 'there's no smoke without fire'. Well it depends where that smoke's coming from and I think that smoke is just a smokescreen."

Phillip: "Philomena, we'll leave it there for the moment, all of us with our mouths wide open with shock and maybe we could speak to you again on Monday after the weekend and you could give us another update."

Philomena: "Can I just tell the whole audience out there. This is a complete fabrication. Gerry and Kate have got nothing to with the disappearance of their daughter. It has been them pushing this investigation from day one. It is just not true."
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McCann Aunt: 'The Twins Come First' Sky News videos
9th September 2007

Philomna McCann: It's a new stage of moving forward but, errr... primarily the twins have to come first. Their development is crucial and Kate and Gerry are putting their needs before everything else, errm... the investigation will carry on but they have to get the t... twins settled at home.
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McCanns at an 'all time low' BBC News video
10th September 2007

Dermot Murnaghan: Good morning, to you. Errm... have you managed to speak to Gerry or Kate since their return to Britain?

Philomna McCann: Yes, I did, last night.

DM: And how would you describe their mood?

PM: Well, it was very mixed, actually. There was relief at being home in familiar surroundings but they were exhausted emotionally and physically and just wanted to have some rest, basically, and take stock of where they are now.

DM: It must have been an emotional return, though, for them; returning to a house they left four months ago with three children... with just two?

PM: It was very emotional, Dermot. There was genuine relief to come back and get the kids home into a safe environment because that has been their utmost concern recently; the safety of the children, especially with the media spotlight being on them. The kids needed to be out of that at home, errr... the British journalists have been much more responsible than the Mediterranean journalists, who have continued, throughout this ordeal, photographing and filming Sean and Amelie, specifically after they were not... and even some journalists had, errr... entered the villa grounds without permission; climbing the wall; coming through the gate, etcetera. It's a real concern and Gerry and Kate are glad to have the kids back but they are really desperately upset that Madeleine is not with them and, you know, it's a very emotionally trying time for them.

DM: How angry are you; how angry are they about being made official suspects by the Portuguese police? We heard a little bit from Gerry as they emerged from the plane at East Midlands airport when he... he made that statement, errm... he did look very, very drawn - very, very angry.

PM: Well, actually, he looked very distressed to me. I could hear his voice quivering and breaking. The fact that they have been made this 'elguido' status. They're not allowed to discuss things; they have been effectively gagged by the Portuguese. I'm furious; the rest of the family are furious. It's adding insult to injury. They're at an all time low and we are shocked by how they have been treated, especially when we had no real understanding of what this 'elguido' status meant and the Portuguese legal system, to us, is a complete maze and we now need help to negotiate that; and that process has already started. So, Kate and Gerry have met with some legal representatives to help guide us though this maze and what they could potentially face.

DM: You say it's a maze, you say it's very confusing but are they still prepared to fully cooperate with the police investigation; are they expecting to return to Portugal; will they return if asked for further questioning?

PM: Errr... yes, they absolutely will cooperate with the police. They are more than prepared to undergo more questioning. It is their intention, regardless of whether they are asked to return, to return at regular intervals to try and put pressure on the Portuguese police to change the direction of the investigation in order to look for Madeleine - a live, little 4-year-old girl who's desperately sought by her parents, the rest of the family and, from what I hear, the rest of the world. We all want her home safely.

DM: Just want to ask you, though, about the cooperation with the... with the Portuguese police. It's reported in a lot of papers this morning, I don't know if you've seen them yet, that when they were questioned at the end of last week, by the police, they refused, between them, to answer about 40 questions, they remained silent on so many issues. Why did they do that? Why won't they just say everything they know; answer all those questions to the police?

PM: Well, Dermot, you're saying that they didn't answer 40 questions. That's certainly not coming from Kate and Gerry and I'd imagine if they refused, which I doubt, to answer questions they were either fatuous or spurious and contemptible. Therefore they probably felt that those questions were not at all justified or possibly that they had already answered them and as fully as they possibly could, therefore there was nothing else they could say to further that.

DM: And a genuine feeling coming from you...

PM: I have... I don't know because... sorry, Dermot...

DM: Go on.

PM: But Gerry and Kate are not talking about their questions; they can't. They have been gagged by the Portuguese system. You saw Gerry on the tarmac reading the statement saying that they would love to say more but are unable to because they could be por... prosecuted, under the portuguese system, if they discuss what was said at their questioning.

DM: And... and.. finally, Philomena, back to what you were saying earlier, do... do they fear this... this cloud of suspicion, errm... is masking, what they see as... as... a the real issue here; the disappearance of Madeleine?

PM: Absolutely. The... the way the Portuguese have turned this investigation round and they are no longer looking for a live child. They are assuming, on spurious evidence, that Madeleine is now dead. Well, we don't agree with that - in any shape or form - and we want the investigation changed round to look for Madeleine alive, as we reckon she is, because the evidence from, errr... the organisations that look for missing and exploited children, points to kids like Madeleine being alive - not murdered - because their value is too high. We believe Madeleine is alive. We don't know her current status; how well she is; but we want her actively sought.
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Does the evidence stack up? BBC Radio 5 live Breakfast
10th September 2007

Nicky Campbell: ...Gerry McCann's sister, Philomena McCann. Philomena, good morning, thank you for talking to us and joining us.

Philomena McCann: Good morning.

NC: Errr... good morning. Errm... give us an idea what Kate and Gerry are going through right now.

PM: Well, they're going through torment, aren't they? They've had to leave Portugal without their daughter; their beloved daughter who's the apple of their eye. They've left a country - that they never wanted to leave without Madeleine - and it's heartbreaking. However, they have had to look at Sean and Amelie and their safety and security and bring them home. They've done what's right for the children and to protect their welfare.

NC: And the fact that in some people's minds, now, because of the fact that they are suspects - 'arguido' - and, you know, there is... a doubt about their innocence has been sewn. How do they feel about that?

PM: Well, they're irate (laughs)...

NC: Irate?

PM: ...as we all are.

NC: Mmm...

PM: But peo... Yeah, of course, they're irate. They're very angry; they can't believe how this has turned round, but not just for the blackening of their name, but because the status of the investigation has changed. The Portuguese police need to be looking for Madeleine, not trying to look at evidence that implicates Gerry and Kate, who have absolutely nothing to do with Madeleine's disappearance. There is an abductor out there who must be laughing in his socks right now, knowing that the... the limelight has now totally gone from them and has been deflected onto Gerry and Kate, who are entirely innocent of this matter.

NC: What about these claims about the... the DNA? What... what do you make of that? The finding of Madeleine's blood, or rather DNA, in... in the... speculation is the hire car and also in the apartment.

PM: Well, I'm no criminologist, and no expert in this, but there's a phrase that I've watched in many a TV show and that's: 'Transference DNA'. Trans... Madeleine's DNA would be on their clothes, their hands and things and that lasts for a long, long time. I'm no expert, as I said, I don't know how long it lasts but now that Gerry and Kate know what the evidence is, they will be able to take legal advice on this and will understand this much further. You can't expect us to know exactly how to treat this; we need help and advice. As I said, this is completely new to us and we want experts to tell us exactly what this means.

NC: It's a nightmare for you, isn't it?

PM: It is a nightmare. Apart from anything else, we are, kind of, just professional people who go about our daily business and the media scrutiny has been intense - which also goes back to the fact that Kate and Gerry have been under immense media scrutiny since this happened. How could they possibly have done some of the things that are being suggested? Like: hide her body; dig her body up; put it in a car. There's not been a time when the media camera has not been on them; as soon as they've left the apartment; gone for a walk. We've watched it, on 24 hours, on TV. How can it be possible that they could have done these things? The allegations are ridiculous, at best.

NC: And just the other... another couple, just to... to get you to... to comment on: The claim that Kate had the smell of death on her clothes and also the claim that Madeleine had been sedated.

PM: (long pause) Yeah... I mean, sedated by what? I know the strongest thing that Kate and Gerry give to the kids is Calpol. If that's a sedative, then there must be 90% of the British public quaking in their boots because they all use it. It's pathetic. If that's what they're trying to suggest, it's fatuous, at best, and, other than that, Kate and Gerry are loving parents; they tried so hard to have children. They had to undergo IVF; Kate had difficult pregnancies. They were delighted to have Madeleine; their first born child. They would never do anything to harm her. The worst I've ever seen Kate and Gerry do, or even heard them say, is go and sit on the naughty step. That's hardly, you know, undermining her physically and mentally. It's crazy.

NC: What do you think, errr... Philomena, of the Portuguese police?

PM: Well, I think that they should be looking for Madeleine alive; I don't want Madeleine lost in all of this; on these allegations and counter allegations of whatever else. I don't really care about, you know, what's been said, I just want them to get out there and find Madeleine; do their job, look for her; look for her alive. The abductor has her, or has passed her on to someone else. They need to be looking for her actively. That's what's important in all this, it's Madeleine.

NC: Do you think she's still alive?

PM: Yes, I do think she's still alive. We have had no evidence contrary to that and as for cadaver dogs sniffing death on Kate; I mean, what is she? Lassie? Is she gonna speak to them and ask what they're smelling? Kate's a doctor - what does this mean? You know, they've been given a team that send her to go and sniff Kate's clothes and the dogs are told what to do. If they start barking, how are we supposed to interpret that? Except, perhaps, they're 'barking'.

NC: Philomena McCann, thank you very much.
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[Special thanks to Nigel Moore of mccannfiles,com for transcripts and pamalam for hosting his now defunct website]

Sandra Felgueiras interviews McCann couple for RTP1 3rd November 2009 transcript

Sandra: Hello Kate, Hi Gerry. You have called us here, or invited us here to show these two new pictures of how Madeleine might look like now at the age of six and also to watch a video, a new appeal video, but you have been recently together in Lisbon. Have you truly felt that the Portuguese public opinion is still with you?

Gerry: I think obviously there has been a lot written that is very negative, and ehm it is inevitable that given so much..., so much was written negative about us, that some people felt that we were involved, that we do feel now, that legal action has been taken and the judicial process has seen that there is no evidence to support what has been written.

Sandra: You are talking about Goncalo Amaral's book?

Gerry: Yeah, but also with the publication of the file in the first place erm an initial process of the criminal erm file and regarding Madeleine's disappearance. You know there is no evidence that we were involved and Subsequently the action we have taken recently I think that people are now prepared to continue the search for Madeleine and that is why we are here today asking people to help us trying to get this very important message...

Sandra: But how can you explain that Goncalo Amaral has sold over 175.000 copies defending that you played the key role in Madeleine's disappearance?

Kate: I mean I think it's important to remember Sandra, the only victim in all of this is Madeleine erm and that is obviously why we are here today really, we are trying to, we are trying to (sigh) reach that person who knows something, and there is somebody who knows something, not the person who has taken Madeleine, but the person on the periphery, and that might just be erm a colleague of the person, a neighbour, a fami..., you know this person, the abductor, has got a mother, a brother, a cousin, a part of family, so that...

Sandra: Do you believe that the public opinion in Portugal right now after reading the book of Goncalo Amaral erm still can support you? Still can answer to that appeal?

Gerry: Now that's the key point why we Are Taking action Sandra and that is part of the legal process as you know. There is a already an injunction out against the book he's banned from repeating his thesis that Madeleine is dead and we were involved. Now that has been two separate judges plus the original judge on file file have said that that. That's what we will do with discussing the facts. Thats the correct place to discuss. Goncalo Amaral and the book..

Sandra: Are you saying that Goncalo Amaral doesn't have the right to share his opinion, his conviction under the evidence he gathered into a book? He doesn't have freedom of expression to say that and to publish it?



Gerry: There is a difference between freedom of expression and evidence to support a theory. What the judges have said there isn't evidence to support this theory, so he shouldn't be saying it. And that is about as much as we want to say about him. You know that's a legal process and we have challenged it, it's been through the judicial process and thats the correct.....

Sandra: The files were closed and no thesis won. How can you explain that after Goncalo Amaral, Paulo Rebelo, the next investigator, also pursued this thesis? He also investigated the possibility of you both play the key role in Madeleine's disappearance?

Gerry: It was investigated, the evidence was presented to the judiciary, and the judiciary concluded there was no evidence to support that thesis, that's very...

Sandra: No DNA, but how do you explain...

Gerry: No no...

Sandra: ...the coincidence...

Gerry: The DNA is only one aspect of it, there was no evidence to support our involvement in Madeleine's disappearance, that is the key thing. Madeleine is still missing, we are here as her family to continue the search. Now I can't speak for people who have read the book but obviously it doesn't stand up to critical appraisal (?).

Sandra: But this is the first time that you give us a big interview not being arguidos, not being arguidos. Since then. erm. So now I feel free to ask you this directly. How can you explain the coincidence of the scent of cadaver found by British and not Portuguese dogs?

Kate: Sandra, maybe you should ask the judiciary because they have examined all evidence. I mean we are also Madeleine's mum and dad and we are desperate for people to help us find Madeleine which is why we are here today. The majority of people are inherently good and I believe the majority of people in Portugal are inherently good people and I am asking them if they will help us spread this message to that person or people...

Sandra: So you don't have an explanation for that?

Gerry: Ask the dogs (smirk) Sandra.

Sandra: Ask the dogs, no Gerry? Now I feel free to ask you, don't you feel free to answer me?

Gerry: I can tell you that we have also looked at evidence about (haha) cadaver dogs and they are incredibly unreliable.

Sandra: Unreliable?

Gerry: Cadaver dogs, yes. That's what they have ensured us, if they are tested scientifically.

Sandra: You read the files, Kate?

Kate: Yes I have read the files.

Sandra: What did shock you most? Any part of the... any detail that...you weren't... aware of? Something that has really surprised you or you didn't find anything?

Kate: Oh I have been through them and I have made notes and I passed that on to our investigation team obviously.

Sandra: And you found any evidence? Of anything?

Kate: Well obviously the only evidence I wanna find is who has taken Madeleine and where she is. They are the key things and until we actually get that bit of information you know we are always gonna feel like we are a long way away. But basically what we are doing is trying to get as much information as we can and trying to put the jig-saw, jigsaw together, so finally we have the complete picture.

Sandra: And what about your friends? Did you have a pact of silence with your friends?

Kate: (laughing) You know the judicial secrecy?

Sandra: I know it but we don't have it anymore.

Gerry: You have to put it into context of the situation that we were in...

Sandra: But now is the time to explain it...

Gerry: That, ar.. ar... article that was written in June was direct as a result of the journalist phoning all of us, and saying what can you tell us about it and we were under expressive instructions that we were not to talk about the details of the case, under judicial secrecy. So that is all that people did. And I don't think that should be considered a pact of silence. We were told, that's all. And you wouldn't expect witnesses in other cases in any country to begin divulging information that may be useful to the perpetrator of the crime

Sandra: Are you still friends? Do you plan another trips together or did it damage...?

Kate and Gerry: No No

Kate: We are still friends. We haven't got any holidays planned but we are still friends. We are in touch with each other, we still meet up and see each other.

Sandra: Don't you agree that there were a lot of details that in a certain way contribute to people to doubt of you, for example, when you went to the Vatican so quickly, all the contacts that you have made. Can I ask you Gerry, if you personally know Mr. Gordon Brown the Prime minister?

Gerry: (moving on his chair uncomfortably) No, and We've still Never Met Gordon Brown. We have spoken to him once on the phone several weeks after Madeleine was abducted. People have got to remember that, and what today is about... good ordinary people wanted to help find an innocent missing child. And that's what happened. Clearly there was a huge amount of media coverage and people wanted to Look At ways to help. Our government wanted to assist the investigation to find The missing child.



Sandra: Are they still supporting you, Mr. Gordon Brown still talks to you directly?

Gerry: We have had continued meetings with both the Home Office and also with the Foreign Office to discuss ways in which the search can continue. Obviously today is a Prime example of law enforcement LED initiative with CEOP Within conjunction with other law enforcement agencies, Interpol, Europol, and you know, the key thing is, that law enforcement believe we can get information from those who may know.




Sandra: How could you explain that Clarence Mitchell left the British Government where he was a press speaker to be your press speaker?

Gerry: Obviously, when Clarence came first out to Portugal working for the Government at that time he came out and spent I think almost three, two to three weeks with us, and he got to know us very very well, and he felt very very passionate about the search for Madeleine and when the opportunity arose, erm, you know, we asked him if he would come back and shield us from the intense media interest and that is what Clarence has done superbly well, and he has become an extremely good friend during this.

Sandra: But he must be paid.?

Gerry: He was paid, that's right

Sandra: And now he must be paid?

Gerry: yeah, but you know...

Sandra: Isn't it difficult for you to pay him?

Gerry: You know, in the first period Brian Kennedy paid his salary and then he was subsequently paid by the fund and now, you know, he works part-time on this, and he is a consultant for Freud Agency, so, you know, as the media interest dropped down, we haven't needed a full-time spokesperson. He still works with us, we are working very closely with him and he has done a brilliant job protecting us and allowing us to have some degree of normality as a family considering the very very intense media interest.

Sandra: You have also hired a new communication agency back in Portugal. Why do you think you need it and is it easy for you to afford it?

Gerry: Well again, it is an agreement that it is funded out of Madeleine's fund. It's a decision that was made by the directors of the fund, because we felt... Kate and I are both directors of the fund, there are nine directors in total, that to really make the search successful we had to present information to the Portuguese public, given how much had been written in a negative way about us, and obviously we want to work with someone who understands the Portuguese culture and the Portuguese media and how we could persuade people that Madeleine is still out there and still can be found....

Sandra: Until when do you think that you will afford all this? Two lawyers in Portugal, a news agency, Clarence Mitchell... I don't know if you still have the two lawyers that you have hired here in London?

Kate: It's not ideal, you know, Sandra. We wouldn't have any lawyers, we wouldn't need any appeal if we weren't in the situation....

Sandra: But don't you feel strangled? Don't you feel that some day you feel it will be finished the money?

Kate: We have to do whatever we can to find Madeleine and obviously we have to look at sort of , you know, if the fund starts to run out we have to try and get more money in, we can't stop...

Sandra: And how do you do it?

Gerry: Well, you know, people have been extremely kind. You have to remember that the fund was set up initially because so many people offered money to try and help and wanted to help and were prepared to donate. We would love nothing better for Madeleine to be found and for the remaining moneys in the fund to go to helping other families of missing children both in the UK and in Portugal, and that is one of our objectives when we have found Madeleine... AND her abductor, then the moneys will be used for that. Obviously if the money runs out... is running out, then we have to look at alternative ways of fundraising erm We've Done small events community events, which have been very good for teambuilding. We have had a small auction in Madeleine's school and the school where the twins are.


Sandra: Do you still have the support of Mr. Richard Branson, JK Rowling, this multimillionaire that initially gave you a lot of money?

Gerry: (burblegurgle) ..an independent investigation that has been funded completely out of Madeleine's fund... I mean an event like today, there is no specific Cost for it, and this is obviously the internet, people already have subscriptions, they can do this. There is the willingness of the population to help and I think we will find hundreds of thousands if not millions of people today will forward this link to their contacts in countries all over the world. That is cheap.

Sandra: Do you still have money in the fund?

Gerry: There is some money still in the fund and it continues to be used and we will use every single penny in that fund in the search for Madeleine.


Sandra: You have asked Goncalo Amaral to pay you 1 million euros for damage erm for the defamation for example. Do you need that money to finance the campaign?

Kate: The reason why we have taken action against Goncalo Amaral is the damage that he has done for Madeleine. That's our main focus.

Sandra: Which motives could he have to make up all this story?

Gerry: We can't speak for Goncalo Amaral.

Sandra: But I presume that you think something? Why should an investigator make it up, a story without evidence

Kate: It has to be financial gain, hasn't it?

Sandra: You think that he made this with the commercial perspective?

Kate: You would have to ask him to get the answer to this.

Sandra: So this is your idea?

Kate: It's a possibility, isn't it. I mean I have....

Sandra: You think Goncalo Amaral is trying to win money playing with your, erm your child's life?

Kate: We have to wonder why an ex-inspector of the PJ would want to convince the population that Madeleine is dead, with absolutely no evidence whatsoever. And that question should be asked.

Sandra: Do you feel that there is a difference of treatment between the Portuguese authorities and the British authorities? In any moment did you feel, or do you feel still, that you were victims of the Portuguese investigation?

Gerry: The key victim is Madeleine. I mean, that's what the crime is about. We know we had to be investigated. And we have been investigated.

Sandra: Sorry Gerry, but you Kate said once, that you were feeling bad with what they asked you inside the PJ, trying to get a confession from you...

Kate: I know the truth Sandra, you know what I mean, and all I want to do is find Madeleine and I was upset...

Sandra: So have you forgotten everything that already passed? It's passed for you both?

Kate: The only thing we can do now is look forward, you know, you know. There is lessons to be learned by everyone ourselves included, from what's happened. But, all we want to do is find Madeleine and the only way of doing that is by looking forwards and trying to be proactive and see what we can do now, which is why this message has gone out today.

Sandra: Did you go back to work? Are you working already?

Kate: I am working fulltime in the campaign to find Madeleine. I am looking after Sean and Amelie.

Sandra: You don't have any plans to go back to the clinic?

Kate: No I don't, no I don't

Sandra: You don't. And talking about the twins. Now the time is passing. Two years and a half since Madeleine disappeared. They are growing up. How will you be able to explain them what happened one day they have the age to really understand it?

Gerry: It's like filling in a picture for them with the information we have available and we will give them as their minds inquire, and as they are able to handle that information, then we will answer all of their questions openly and honestly.

Sandra: But what will you tell them

Gerry: Well, we will answer the questions. So what they ask us we will tell them. And we tell them exactly what happened and what information we know. And what we do know, is that we are continuing to look for their sister. They want people to look for their sister.

Sandra: But will you go into details about what happened?

Kate: We will be led by them. We have had advice from a child psychologist and they said Sean and Amelie would lead the way. If they ask a question answer them honestly. We are not gonna rush them, but if they ask something, then obviously we will answer them.

Sandra: They are in the same school where Madeleine was?

Gerry: Well she didn't get a chance to start yet so, she was there, her place is there, and the twins are there now.

Sandra: The room, Madeleine's room is still the same?

Kate: The bedroom? Yeah, it's quite a few more presents in it now, but yeah, it's still the same.

Sandra: And what do you keep telling the twins whenever they ask for her? I presume that they ask about her a lot of times?

Kate: Well they know she is missing, you know, and they know we are looking for her, and they also say things to me like, if they see things like a Madeleine sticker or a poster, they say "look Mummy they are helping to find Madeleine with us", and they might point at other people saying "Mummy are they helping us to find Madeleine?" and you know, so *shrugs*

Sandra: Is it still very hard for you or are you getting used to this reality? Are you trying to live with it?

Kate: You have to, I think, you have to adapt and you have to function. And if we want to look after Sean and Amelie, and if you want to search for Madeleine, then you have to function. Erm. I am obviously stronger than I was say a year ago, and, obviously the emotion is still there...but...*sigh*

Gerry: Well we do as much as we possibly can to ensure that the twins see us happy, and see us happy with them, and they give us a tremendous amount of joy, and our life, you know, on a day-to-day basis superficially would look like any other family with two young children. Obviously one of our children is missing. And they know that and they know that that's not good and they want her back and they understand why on occasion, you know, that we are particularly upset and... we all want Madeleine back to be a complete family again, but the twins are coping fantastically Well....

Sandra: You told me once that you are both living a nightmare. In your more optimistical perspective, what do you imagine, what do you think, it could be the best way to recover Madeleine.

Gerry: I think, the first thing today is that this message, it can be downloaded and distributed, get heard and seen by someone who knows, and it will tweak their conscience and get them to give information to bring Madeleine back.

Sandra: The last lead that you have shared with us was about a women in Barcelona. Has this anything to do with this appeal? (Kate shakes head?) Is it for that, that you are asking the relatives of people that can be involved in her disappearance, to call you?

Gerry: I think the first thing to say is that the investigation ,matters are to be dealt with by the professionals and obviously we have got David Edgar working for us or law enforcement as appropriate. Today is about this appeal. It is completely separate. It is going out in seven different languages, we want it to be spread as far and as wide as possible because we don't know where Madeleine is and we don't know who took her and that's why we need the public's help to spread the email, an email to all your contacts. I know you have already done it, Sandra.

Sandra: Thank you very much to you both.

[Acknowledgement Joana 'xklamation' Morais]